A problem with a DM

[Anakha]

Hi. My name is Anakha, I've been roleplaying since 3rd edition, and I have a problem this forum might be able to help me out with.

My small gaming club meets bi-weekly and plays many games. The past 6 months, we have been trying out 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons. About half of our group of 7,including myself, has DM experience, ranging from 2nd to 3.5 edition, and experience in Shadowrun and Warhammer:Fantasy Role Play. The person who ended up being our DM was the one person who should not have. Now, before you think that I am just mad because i was not picked, let me clarify.

This DM doesn't own any of the books for 4th ed. He doesn't prepare his dungeons ahead of time, because we spent 10 minutes last night while he was "finding a monster for us to fight". Mind you, my group will get through about 3 encounters a session, if we are lucky. Most of his encounters are poorly planned, consisting of a terrain less room with one monster copy-pasted until there is one monster per character. All Solo monsters "must be by themselves, because they are solo". Another example was 2 session ago, where the party was shown two signs written in an unknown language. I, being the wizard, thought to use Comprehend Languages, so that we could read them. He freaked because he didn't know i had that, even though i had used the ritual 3 sessions ago, and apparently it would reveal too much of his dungeon. He proceeded to offer us a DC 30 history check to know about it, and when our historian succeeded, he bumped the DC to 40.

To make a long story short, he has no idea what he is doing. Why is this a problem? Well, I would like to take a turn behind the DM screen again, and I was planning to do so when 4th edition came out. I just cannot find the polite way as to get him to step down, and retain our friendship, as he is still a good friend, just not a good DM.

I figured the roleplayers here might have had a similar experience, and might know how to deal with it. Thanks for your help.

~Anakha

[Stupendous_Man]

You must lead a coup de ta immediately. I suggest fomenting an insurrection within the ranks. At the next session, ask the players to vote on what to do, and the reins of power should slip out of the current DM's hands.

If not, a more violent revolution is called for...

[Crow]

I think you should talk to your DM about it. Don't be mean or anything, but just be calm and rational. Maybe offer to help him out a little bit. See if your other players feel the same way you do.

[BRC]

Start with open, honest communication, but do so while wearing a coat. If he is offended or dosn't get the point, throw off the coat, revealing the pair of bandoleers strapped across your chest Pancho-Villa style, the Bandoleers should be full of minatures and dice.

[Stupendous_Man]

Start with open, honest communication, but do so while wearing a coat. If he is offended or dosn't get the point, throw off the coat, revealing the pair of bandoleers strapped across your chest Pancho-Villa style, the Bandoleers should be full of minatures and dice.

"I have fifty character sheets. Bring it."

[mabriss lethe]

Yeah, this person isn't particularly good at handling these things.

Well, here are some options for you.

1. Abandon the game and get someone else to DM another. that could cause some hurt feelings if not handled properly.

2. Replace the DM. Probably not such a good idea as it will most likely leave some bad blood.

3. Offer to nominate another player as an assistant to help him get his ducks in a row and get everything laid out in a way that ensures everyone has fun. Don't nominate yourself, though, that just looks bad.

[BRC]

"I have fifty character sheets. Bring it."
Your Sig has inspired me to invent the following quote, and perhaps make a picture to go with it.
"Players should not be afraid of their DM's, DM's should be afraid of their players"

[Stupendous_Man]

Viva la revolution.

[NPCMook]

It seems Anakha forgot to mention the need for realism arguments that have sprung up...

We had a character who took quick draw, and used it to drink a potion in one minor action, the DM called BS on this since he should be able to smash the potions if they are on your belt, so several sessions later we had a character death because both of our Leaders were out of heals for the day, the Paladin wasn't close enough to use Lay of Hands and well since said character's potion was in his backpack he couldn't quick draw it, and thus died.

There was an instance again last night, but I wasn't there for that part of the session...

This is the same DM who pretty much took away my purpose for taking mounted combat because I had only taken a Riding horse, the one time he actually pays attention to fluff...

[valadil]

You could ask him how he likes GMing. Maybe discuss your different methods. Don't do it as a player complaining, do it as another GM co-miserating. Then you can start offering suggestions that will improve his game.

[woodenbandman]

You should make a practice of having everyone vote on the DM that runs the adventure ever week. If you get a certain number of downvotes at any given session, you should make a point of bowing out.

[Myatar_Panwar]

If he isn't taking time to plan out his sessions, chances are that that he has either stopped caring and just doesn't want to DM anymore.

If you want to resolve this in a way that won't hurt his feelings, and won't even let him know that you think hes a bad DM, tell him that about your ideas for a campaign, and ask him when he thinks you will be able to run it. If my theory is correct, he might step down then and there. Especially since, unless hes stupid, he has probably discovered by now that he isn't doing the job he should be, if only by the players reactions.

[ObsidianRose]

Dude, are you D2 OTF Anakha?

The Canuck guy?

[MustacheFart]

Well, I would suggest working with him in a friendly manner above all else and here's why.


Last year, I came up with a good idea for a campaign. Therefore, I took my turn as being the DM for my first time ever...

I think I got to run 2 sessions before it blew away faster than a fart in the wind.

I never received one word as to why people didn't want to play or as to what happened. I simply couldn't get them to meet to play. I remember the day we were supposed to play (making our 3rd session) two of the players went to the movies instead... After that, I said "whatever" and pretty much gave up on it. I did intensively try to find out what happened that week and reschedule the next session but I never got any substantial information. The only information I received was from two players; one (my best bud at the time) said, “I don’t know what happened” and the other (roommate to one player) said “I don’t know what happened, I still want to play.”

There were still 2 other players, a buddy (the roommate of the above) and his girlfriend. I never heard anything from them.


Anyway...to get to the point. I put a lot of work into the campaign. I had pretty much the whole general story concieved and written down. I then would spend dedicated time before each session editing the story based on what they had done the previous sessions, fitting it to where the characters were, and preparing what I wanted them to do. I didn't want to railroad them so, I figured tweaking the story to them, inherently making it an ever-changing story would prevent this but maybe I was wrong.

None the less, there were more than a few suprises for me the first session. The first of which was they had all rolled up these super, cheesed-up characters using templates and the like. There justification was "you told us to prepare as you had one heck of a game in store." I thought they perceived what I said as general excitement and a plan to deliver a great story but apparently the only "plan" they gathered was one involving "difficulty." I tried to get them to roll up normal characters but I was outvoted and basically lost any authority I may have had (I think this is part of what led to downfall).


Anyway, there were several times when they "succeeded" in ways I didn't plan for or when I didn't want them to and I felt inclined to "fudging it" much like your DM has. Looking back on it, I think I felt like, "Oh crap I got this awesome game but it's not going how I like and is going to spiral out of control. Soon it won't even be able to follow the story I had devised"--just general panic/worry typical that of over-reacting. I know now that such unplanned actions, as long as not meant to simply create trouble, can be a good thing that you just have to roll with. Of course I could have used someone to tell me that at the time.


The whole point to my drawn-out story? Calling him out or bailing could make him want to never DM again. The latter doing that for me.

I mean I want to DM but yet... I don't want to or I feel like I shouldn't DM. Everytime I consider it, I can't help but think about how my first game was a failure. It's created a significant amount of reluctance towards DMing. I probably still will in the future but I sure as hell wish I could have got some help. A co-DM would have been great.

If you call him out in the most nicest of ways you have to consider there are 7 people in your game...thats a handful. Even if you call him out alone or in the presence of just a couple he is still going to assume the worst more than likely, that of, "Jeez all 7 people think I'm a ****ty DM."

Honestly, I would go to him and be like, "Hey man good game so far (**** lie if you have to...at least toting his ego some will make him more likely to listen and not get all defensive). How do you like DMing for the first time?" More than likely I bet he'll mention something as to how it wasn't what he expected or how it's more difficult than he imagined. If not then ask him "Anything you didn't expect with DMing?" Basically get him going and then be like, "Ya when I first DMed I felt a little worried when the characters weren't following my story exactly how I imagined they would be. But, you just have to do such and such."

If you just up and bail, dethrone him as DM, or call him out as a bad DM you will only cause damage to the group and probably to him as well. I mean if you don't care go for it but you said he was your friend.

Work with him and LEAD him to making better decisions. Offer to help him out. If you start helping him plan and come up with encounters you can more than likely start phasing him out as DM over time anyway without him realizing.

It really boils down to: If he can't take constructive criticism he shouldn't be a DM ever. You have to give it though.

Recap:

1st time dm = constructive criticism good; dethrone/bail-out/call-out bad!

[skywalker]

You must lead a coup de ta immediately. I suggest fomenting an insurrection within the ranks. At the next session, ask the players to vote on what to do, and the reins of power should slip out of the current DM's hands.

If not, a more violent revolution is called for...

Such a vigorous revolutionary such as yourself should know, it's "coup d'etat," with a little accent over the "e."

Anyway, on topic, I don't think he's viable to keep as a DM. Some have suggested working with him, but I don't think there's enough humility there to make it. It sounds like he just doesn't know when to quit. Example: The comprehend languages thing. Sometimes, the players have something you didn't expect, or they do something clever and your elaborate dungeon is screwed. An example from my own game: they were a player down, so I created an NPC for them, not realizing that I had done some serious optimization of perception, far past the DCs for all the secret rooms. Hey, guess what? The cleric sees all the secret doors passively. But whatever. You screwed up, don't screw the players to try and fix it. Punishing the players is never something you should do. If you don't like the way they're acting/playing your campaign, step down as DM or find a new group.

It doesn't sound like his dungeon could be too elaborately planned, since he has to look up the monsters before the session can start. There's some mixed information here. He sounds like a combo between a fanatic and a lazybones. This is very strange. Maybe just trying to screw you. So that's one example. The other example would be the potion thing. Not only are there not rules for sundering potions in 4e (in and of itself, not a big deal, creativity by the DM is encouraged), but sundering potions is what I consider a "screw the players" move. This guy's attitude doesn't seem appropriate for DM'ing.

So, to summarize: Lazy when it comes to preparing (doesn't even own the books? Come on! They're not hard to find like some stuff!) and prefers screwing the players into his vision instead of creating opportunities for them to enjoy memorable encounters.

How to explain all this to him and get him to step down? I got nothing. All I've ever been able to do is quit the group. I've never had this problem with friends.

[kamikasei]

I agree with Myatar Panwar and second MustacheFart's glimpse into the twisted psyche of a DM with problems. Essentially you have to avoid telling the guy, "your game is bad and you should feel bad". Especially if you think he'd be amenable to a graceful out, offer one.


Such a vigorous revolutionary such as yourself should know, it's "coup d'etat," with a little accent over the "e."

In this case, wouldn't it be coup d'jeu?

[ScionofImperius]

"Players should not be afraid of their DM's, DM's should be afraid of their players"

can I sig this?

[BRC]

can I sig this?
Go Right ahead.

[Stupendous_Man]

Such a vigorous revolutionary such as yourself should know, it's "coup d'etat," with a little accent over the "e."


Can it, capitalist swine! You and your bourgeoisie spelling can just go ride on out of town on your high horse! :smallyuk:

[Anakha]

Well, not to disappoint, but i am not Anakha from the D2 forums. I don't even play D2.

Also, i have never been, nor will i ever be a Canadian.

[Kroy]

"I have fifty character sheets. Bring it."
Sig'd:smallbiggrin: (unless you have an objection...)

[Knaight]

I would advise being blunt, but not mean. Point out that he really isn't prepared, which is understandable as the books are kind of expensive and preparing without them is a bad idea, and it would probably just work best for everybody if somebody with access to the materials and such would GM.

[caden_varn]

If you don't feel comfortable broaching the problems here, I'd suggest going to him the next session, and saying that you have a game idea that you really want to run. If he is at all reasonable, you shouold be able to agree a time in a few sessions time at the latest to move onto your game. Even if it is not straight away, you at least have an end in sight.

It does sound as if he is not really that interested in DMing, so he may be happy to swap straight away.
I would agree that it is good to give some feedback though. if he has no idea that you are unhappy, why would he change? You want to handle it reasonably gently, but it would probably be helpful for him to get some feedback, or he'll never change. In the end, you know him, so you'll have to gauge how to handle it.

[NPCMook]

If you don't feel comfortable broaching the problems here, I'd suggest going to him the next session, and saying that you have a game idea that you really want to run. If he is at all reasonable, you shouold be able to agree a time in a few sessions time at the latest to move onto your game. Even if it is not straight away, you at least have an end in sight.

It does sound as if he is not really that interested in DMing, so he may be happy to swap straight away.


According to the DM, Anakha will just screw it up, there's a story behind this, but it was before my time in the group, while I've heard some of Anakha's ideas for dungeons I'd say they are much more creative than what we are currently in.

The current DM is a bit of a control freak, thus the pointless DC's increasing because we've used the rules to exceed meet or exceed them, or just being prepared

Also, no end is in sight, his DM style is to revolve the story around 1 character, this adventure has changed once already, I picked up the Forgotten Realms books and we took a vote to jump into Forgotten realms where two people in the group changed their characters. The initial story was finished within 2-4 sessions and then the DM stopped writing the adventure and doing it all on the fly, while the initial adventure wasn't well thought out, it was at least planned in advanced. When he started making it up as we went we found a magic orb that apparently bonded to a person and began to drain their essence storing it till someone found a way to use the orb and gain all this power... Then we switched over to Forgotten Realms where the McGuffin orb has taken a back seat for the time being. We still have it, and its killing our wizard to whom its currently bonded, if we try to get rid of it, it will just magically re-appear at our wizards side.

[Hannibal]

Clearly as a DM he is inferior, and I would bet money that he knows it. I suggest putting some thought into why he is DMing. It's highly plausible that he feels as though the group is depending on him, and will resent it if they reject his efforts. Once you're sure you know why he keeps trying, approach the issue from that angle. People are much more receptive to new ideas (i.e., maybe he shouldn't be DMing) if they feel understood.

To make a long answer short: Apply reasoning and intelligence.

[caden_varn]

Hmmm well. Its a group activity, and no one guy has the right to say what you will do. If the rest of the group votes to do Anakha's game, he does not have the right to veto it. And if he is critising Anakha's DMing style (saying he will screw it up is doing just that) then he should be able to take a bit of criticism himself.

It is quite easy for this sort of thing to end up in a slanging match, or for the guy to feel picked on if you go in mob-handed though, so you need to approach it a bit carefully, especially if you don't want to fall out with him out of game. Exactly how you go about this will depend on what he is like, but if you all want to change DMs, you have the right to do it.

[Dyvim Matt]

There's been good advice so far so I don't know what to add, except that you should be prepared to make hard decisions, like quitting and doing your own game. I've known people who were bad GMs and wouldn't admit it. They just keep doing things their way until people get bored and leave, no matter what the players say.

And guys, it's "coup d'état". :smallwink:

[clericwithnogod]

I can understand Anakha's situation in this. I went through the same thing with a long-time, experienced, DM in a 4e game...a guy I had been playing with for all of 3.0 and 3.5. I tried talking, and things got better for a bit, then gradually started spiraling downward again. I ended up leaving the game.

Some people just can't make the transition. Being a control freak is the worst possible attribute a 4e DM can have. You have to surrender to the rules to enjoy the game. Once you do, and enter into the same social compact that players do, the game becomes a lot of fun. A good 4e DM creates, plays and referees, he doesn't control.

If the DM is getting mad about players' powers/feats/abilites, there's a problem. And continually changing the rules to something the DM likes isn't going to solve that problem.

[Muad'dib]

Such a vigorous revolutionary such as yourself should know, it's "coup d'etat," with a little accent over the "e."

Accent aigu or accent grave?

[Timeras]

Accent aigu or accent grave?

Accent aigu (see #27)

[Muad'dib]

Accent aigu (see #27)

Yeah, but did skywalker know that?

[Stephen_E]

Does your group have email discussions?

If so I suggest you raise the point that you think the games going a bit flat and that it might be time to try something different if people are interested. I suggesg this because the infomation so far suggests that an individual approach probably won't work, but a face=to-face discussion has far to much risk of been friendship damaging. Email has the advantage that while people tend to blow up a bit easier, they also tended to feel less wounded or embarrassed by discussions that might be taken as critical.

Stephen E