(4e) Choice of Implements

[Starsinger]

Implements and Weapons are fundamentally different. A Paladin can use any weapon to use a Weapon power. A Paladin can use that same weapon with a Fighter power. (Rogue powers are the slight exception given that they require a certain weapon type)

Implements do not do this. A Warlock cannot use her Warlock powers with a Holy Symbol. A Warlock cannot multiclass Wizard and use her Rod for the Wizard power. Why? What's the fundamental issue with letting a Cleric use a staff to shoot a Lance of Faith? Why can't a pious Wizard (ignoring the one in Adventurer's Vault that acts as both if you worship Corelleon) use a Holy Symbol to shoot Magic Missile? How much would it hurt to make Implements function for any class that can use Implements?

Disclaimer: Please leave ridiculous swordmage to be silliness out of this, I don't want to read a post saying "So a Swordmage can use a Wand as a Bastard sword LOL?" But on the topic of Swordmagi, what's wrong with letting one use his Sword to cast Bigby's Icy Fist if he multiclasses Wizard?

[NecroRebel]

I'd consider allowing the enhancement bonus from an implement to be used by any character class, as it does not appear that it does anything but add to the intensity of the power used. However, the different implements have relatively specific types of properties available which tend to mimic the types of powers their intended users wield. For instance, orbs and staves tend to mimic Wizard-style powers, while holy symbols mimic Cleric-style powers.

This last bit is more likely, IMO, to be somewhat unbalanced as it lets you gain access to another class's abilities (albeit in a limited fashion), which is something 4E seems to avoid. Although, to be fair, I cannot actually think of any way this could be abused at the moment... Huh. Odd.



Actually, it's probably just for flavor. If you really wanted, you probably could let any class use any implement as an implement if you so desired without screwing anything over too badly.

[Asbestos]

I agree, it is a little wonky, but I believe its there to make the implement using classes feel... different. I can't think of a reason other than that or really explain it better right now. Basically, I think its all fluff and no crunch.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well... mostly it has to do with Magical Item Segregation.

Unlike Weapons, most Implement Items provide a special effect, often duplicating an attack power. If you let any class use any implement, then you have Clerics using Orbs of Inevitable Continuance and Wizards wearing Symbols of Victory. This is one reason why MC is so helpful in 4E - it gives you access to these very magic items.

Aside from that, it's fluffy. I'm sure you see the case for Wizards not casting Magic Missile through a Symbol of Kord, but the same argument can be made for the rest. Wizards, and wizards only use Staffs; nobody uses Rods but Warlocks. It's just another type of distinction made between the classes.

[Starsinger]

I'm sure you see the case for Wizards not casting Magic Missile through a Symbol of Kord,

But what about Ioun?

[Oracle_Hunter]

But what about Ioun?

Only if the Wizard was initiated in Ioun's Order.

That's the fluff explanation. The mechanical explanation is that Symbols do not differentiate between gods. While a Priest of Kord can't use a Symbol of Ioun +3, as per their class restriction, Wizards don't have that built into their class. And if you did, how could you do it sensibly if you don't require the Wizards to worship any particular god but still restrict the symbols they can use?

I'm not saying you couldn't house-rule this without breaking the game, but the reasons I listed are, IMHO, the reasons the implement restrictions exist. If you let any Implement-using class use any Implement, then what's to stop the Wizard for randomly deciding to wear a Symbol of Victory because it was handy?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And furthermore, what about the implements for Spellscarred? Those powers are labelled arcane, so it seems like only wizards, warlocks and swordmages would get the biggest benefit, since the other classes cannot use arcane implements.

[Starsinger]

Only if the Wizard was initiated in Ioun's Order.

That's the fluff explanation. The mechanical explanation is that Symbols do not differentiate between gods. While a Priest of Kord can't use a Symbol of Ioun +3, as per their class restriction, Wizards don't have that built into their class. And if you did, how could you do it sensibly if you don't require the Wizards to worship any particular god but still restrict the symbols they can use?

Ahh, except the symbols in the Adventurer's Vault which do indeed differentiate between gods. And set the ugly (or wonderful depending) precedent of being able to circumvent this. Specifically, the Symbol of Corelleon can be used with Wizard powers as well as Cleric/Paladin.


And furthermore, what about the implements for Spellscarred? Those powers are labelled arcane, so it seems like only wizards, warlocks and swordmages would get the biggest benefit, since the other classes cannot use arcane implements.

Especially since there's a paragon path in the same book which says you can use your arcane implements for its normally divine powers.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But that's really only useful if you multiclass.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ahh, except the symbols in the Adventurer's Vault which do indeed differentiate between gods. And set the ugly (or wonderful depending) precedent of being able to circumvent this. Specifically, the Symbol of Corelleon can be used with Wizard powers as well as Cleric/Paladin.

And those are special symbols designed with powers for those specific class combinations in mind. Generic magical symbols do not differentiate; both a Cleric of Kord and a Cleric of Pelor can have Symbols of Victory.

Again, this sort of cross-over is the exception, not the rule, to preserve Magical Item Segregation and fluffiness for the classes.

[Starsinger]

But that's really only useful if you multiclass.

Nah the class is open to anyone who can use implements. (Which is a rather strange requirement)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But really, when is a wizard who isn't gonna multiclass gonna use a Divine power? When is a cleric gonna use a wizard power unless they multiclass? The answer? They won't. The whole draw of the Star of Corellon is that it confers benefits on both Divine and Arcane powers at the same time. If you aren't multiclassing between the two power sources, there's better implements to choose from on both sides since you're only getting half the benefit from the Star.

[Starsinger]

But really, when is a wizard who isn't gonna multiclass gonna use a Divine power? When is a cleric gonna use a wizard power unless they multiclass? The answer? They won't. The whole draw of the Star of Corellon is that it confers benefits on both Divine and Arcane powers at the same time. If you aren't multiclassing between the two power sources, there's better implements to choose from on both sides since you're only getting half the benefit from the Star.

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough. The Paragon Path (Moonwarden or something like that) is a Divine Class open to anyone who can use implements, and it says you may use Arcane Implements instead of a divine one for its abilities.

Edit: Oh that's about the Star I feel more stupid. Yes the Star is for Cleric/Wizards (or Wizard Clerics) (substitute either Cleric with Paladin) but that's one deity. So only Corellon gives Wizard/Clerics a viable MC implement? Lame.

Edit 2: I forgot in the origional post, that this implement thingy also really hurts Half-Elves and their Dilettante power. Since you aren't technically multiclassed, you can't use an implement with your Dilettante power. So if you grabbed Scorching burst, you'd better have a wand handy and make sure you take Arcane Initiate.

[Kaun]

Personaly i think its fine as is. But i thought id make a post about potential problems i could see. Lets say you have a sword and board fighter cross warlock in a group and a paladin who generaly uses a two handed sword.

The fighter/warlock has a + 3 1h axe and a + 2 Rod the paladin has a + 3 two handed sword. There in the middle of a session a + 5 two handed sword drops and you would expect that it would end up in the paladins hands but the fighter/lock pipes up and say's he wants it, even though its not really overly usefull for his fighter abilities due to hes style being based around sword and board his plan is to use it as his implament for casting as combat begins makeing use of the + 5 bonus and then droping it and quick drawing his axe once he gets into close quarters.

[Starsinger]

Personaly i think its fine as is. But i thought id make a post about potential problems i could see. Lets say you have a sword and board fighter cross warlock in a group and a paladin who generaly uses a two handed sword.

The fighter/warlock has a + 3 1h axe and a + 2 Rod the paladin has a + 3 two handed sword. There in the middle of a session a + 5 two handed sword
drops and you would expect that it would end up in the paladins hands but the fighter/lock pipes up and say's he wants it, even though its not really overly usefull for his fighter abilities due to hes style being based around sword and board his plan is to use it as his implament for casting as combat begins makeing use of the + 5 bonus and then droping it and quick drawing his axe once he gets into close quarters.

... but but... a TW Sword isn't an implement.

[Asbestos]

... but but... a TW Sword isn't an implement.

Swordmage, bam!

And, yes, I know we aren't talking about them

[RTGoodman]

One thing to remember is that you can actually use implement powers without even HAVING an implement - the only thing they do is give you the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. For a low-level character, you could probably survive without an implement completely, seeing as how it'll only be about a +1 difference anyway. (I know, I know, +1 is a big thing in 4E, but OVERALL it's not as bad as it could be.) At higher levels it gets slightly worse since you're missing out on up to +6 attack, but by that point you've got so much money you can probably afford a (lower-level) implement of every sort.

That said, I don't really see a big problem with it for classes within the same power source. I think a Wizard/Warlock should be allowed to use his wand instead of having to get a rod, too. I'm not as sure about allowing it for powers from different sources - it doesn't make sense to me that a device made to channel the powers of the divine should be able to channel the raw elemental powers of arcane magic, too.

[Starsinger]

That said, I don't really see a big problem with it for classes within the same power source. I think a Wizard/Warlock should be allowed to use his wand instead of having to get a rod, too. I'm not as sure about allowing it for powers from different sources - it doesn't make sense to me that a device made to channel the powers of the divine should be able to channel the raw elemental powers of arcane magic, too.

Bad example, wizards and warlocks can both use Wands (Warlocks and Artificers can both use Rods)

Edit: Bards can use wands too, and I think Artificers may also be able to use Wands... in which case Maybe Wand is the defacto Arcane implement.

[Kaun]

... but but... a TW Sword isn't an implement.


I guess i missed your point, some where dureing the first post where you were talking about paladins multi to fighter thing i got confused and thought that you wanted all things that add there + to either damage or acc (be it weapon or implament) to be grouped into this universal implament thing your talking about.

I guess the problem i could see is with clerics and religous items. As sombody already mentioned it dosent mater how nice the orb is i dont think it will cut it as a suitable representation of most gods.

an interesting question is how short does a staff have to be befor it becomes a rod?

[OneFamiliarFace]

Most of the time, multiclassing (the main circumstance under which one will gain an attack of a different power source) is better if you keep it in the family anyway.

In this light: all martial classes use weapons to enhance their powers and all divine classes use holy symbols as implements.

Arcane classes then become an odd exception in that they can't trade about implements as though they are foodstuffs during a time of surplus. There is some overlap (the mentioned wands for warlocks and wizards), but I would wager the reason for this is (as previously stated) largely flavor based. As arcane classes seem to differ in nature far more than do martial or divine classes within their respective power sources.

And in the case of the half-elf, even a dilletante would be better off with powers closer to her trade. So a half-elf battle cleric is going to be more handy with fighter or paladin "training" than she will with wizard training.

That being said, Easy Solutions:

1) Since treasure is not awarded randomly, the DM can ensure that items of use to each of the player's powers falls into his hands. A multiclass character, then, may discover two separate implements that apply to each of his power types separately. (or, as previously mentioned, might gain the money to buy one or the other)

2) The DM can make her own treasure. A designed treasure could easily be similar to a Holy Avenger in that it serves as both a weapon and an implement for Paladin abilities. A Holy Symbol of Ioun then, may also function as an orb or wand (with a specific spell placed in it), and it would be slightly higher level treasure than a regular symbol or regular orb.