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rubycona
2008-12-08, 06:33 AM
Hello.

One of my players is wanting to play as a centaur. I'm fine with the idea of monsters as characters, but looking over the centaur's adjustments, it seems way overpowered.

It says:

CENTAURS AS CHARACTERS
A centaur druid is usually a tribe’s designated leader and speaker. Centaur characters possess the following racial traits.
+8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom.
Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/5 feet.
A centaur’s base land speed is 50 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A centaur begins with four levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +4, and Will +4.
Racial Skills: A centaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 7 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival.
Racial Feats: A centaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats.
+3 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Elven. Bonus Languages: Common, Gnome, Halfling.
Favored Class: Ranger.
Level adjustment +2.

It gets awesome stat increases (even greater than that of half dragon, a +3 LA), 50 feet, darkvision, +4 BAB, 4 HD, nice Saving Throw bonuses, 7X skill modifier, 2 feats, +3 NA...

... all for a +2 LA. Honestly, it seems to be greater than the half dragon template, for less of an LA increase. I've played a half dragon myself, so I'm used to it, that's why I'm referencing it as a standard, of sorts.

Am I just misunderstanding something? Is that actually fair?

I was thinking, 4HD with an LA of +2 is messed up, so giving 1HD (D8), and getting rid of the BAB bonus and saves bonus would make it ok. Even with that, it Still strikes me as a bit too strong, but I don't want to nerf her character more than is fair.

What do you guys think? What would make this really fair for a +2 LA?

Thanks for your help! :D

Evil DM Mark3
2008-12-08, 06:36 AM
The four hd (as well as the BAB, skill points and saves) are LEVELS. With an LA of +2 this makes gives the Centaur an ECL of 6, he counts as a level 6 character.

I feel that Centaurs are quite well balanced as far as monsters go (that is to say, horribly underpowered as a rule.)

rubycona
2008-12-08, 06:37 AM
Ahh. That would be me misunderstanding it, then. Thanks! :D

This may complicate things... Ah, well XD What is D&D anyway, if not complicated? :P

starwoof
2008-12-08, 06:38 AM
Remember that the centaur has 4 racial HD as well, for a starting ECL of 6. They are good, but not incredible. So with one level of a class the character would be level 7. I think that there is a centaur racial class thing in races of the wild that allows them to be played from level one and gain their abilities slowly, he may want to look into that.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Sigh.

lord_khaine
2008-12-08, 06:39 AM
the thing you are overlooking is the 4 racial hd that the centauer is dragging around, they mean it has to wait until lv 7 before it can even start to take a pc class, where on the other hand the half dragon dont have to bother with that.

also the centauer shape will provide some additional penalties when facing small spaces and situations requirering climbing.

edit.
cursed ninjas...

SoD
2008-12-08, 06:39 AM
He's right. A Centaur with one level in, lets say, Barbarian is a level 7 character. He'll have two HD less than everyone else, less skill points, worse saving throws, lower BAB. He will, however, be large sized, so 10 foot reach, have better strength than anyone else, and, being large sized and a quadruped, be able to carry all the PC's, their gear, and the world they live on due to amazing carrying limits. I think large sized gets double that of medium, and quadruped gives another double?

Edit; whoa. That's three posts whilst I was typing this...

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-08, 06:44 AM
You could nerf the race down to an LA of 0 for the game. This is what I'd give them.

+4 Str, -2 Dex and Int.
Large size (5 ft. reach, 10 ft. space).
50' movement.
Darkvision 60'
+1 with all ranged attack rolls (the Dex penalty is caused by their size and phisiology rather then a lack of ranged combat skill).
+2 to all Spot, Listen and Survival checks.
Unable to make Climb or Tumble check.

Is this balanced? I know a lot of my races are apparently boearderline LA 1.

SoD
2008-12-08, 06:46 AM
I think that pretty much any large sized creature should have at least +1 LA, due to the benefits of being big. And 50 foot land speed for LA +0? Within the rules, I can happily knock that up to...85 feet, assuming flaws/traits are in.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-08, 06:48 AM
Can you think of anything that would balance that out? I wanted it to be Large due to the idea whcih Savage Specises had about them starting as Medium creatures and growing to Large never made sense to me. (That is another option you could try, though; that version has different stats to mine, though.)

rubycona
2008-12-08, 06:53 AM
I'm looking at reworking the package.

An effective LA of 6 (IE, ECL 8 before class level 2) is not that fun. She's just wanting to play around with an unusual character.

So, I'm thinking I'll just completely eliminate the monster HD, so no extra HP, no BAB bonus, no Saves Bonus, no Skill pts bonus, no extra feats.

That'd be fair enough, I think. Then she could start leveling her ranger at level 3.

Edit: Yeah, Tempest, that template looks about LA +1

SoD
2008-12-08, 06:55 AM
Nothing that would make sense. For a start, I'd be very iffy about +4 str. The only +0 LA PC race with +4 str is the orc, and he has more stat penalties than you've given the centaur.

For a start, I'd knock the speed down to 30, either and give a penalty to either wisdom, or charisma as well (possibly both, to help make up for the large size) or knock the strength down to +2. Do centaurs normally have darkvision? I'd be tempted to cut that as well. You might want to do something to make up for the amazingly high carrying limits as well (nothing major though).

However, I'm talking from a balance stance here. They're friggin' horse people, they're meant to be fast, so 30 foot land speed makes no sense. And I wouldn't understand the wisdom and charisma penalties either (I don't understand why they have an int pelanty either). And typically, they're quite strong, so +4 minimum makes sense. I'm sorry, but I can't think of a fair +0 LA centaur which makes sense. The only thing you've got which might make sense cutting is the darkvision. And I'd personally want to replace it with low light vision.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-08, 07:02 AM
I gave thm Darkvision because they are Monstrous Humanoids. I agree with everything you said about why nerfing it in other ways won't work. I suppose allowing LA buy-off would be the most practical idea while just using my Centaur as an LA 1 race: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm .

SoD
2008-12-08, 07:05 AM
Yeah, I know about monsterous humanoids and darkvision. But seeing as they're as varied as humanoids are (gnolls aren't monsterous humanoids, but goliaths are? WTF?), I don't like that bit.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-08, 07:08 AM
That's something else that didn't make sense to me (Lupins are also Monstrous Humanoids dispire being the same size as humans while typically being Lawful Good).

rubycona
2008-12-08, 07:34 AM
While I'm here...

Why is being large considered a particularly good thing on this thread?

As I see it, they get

Penalties: -1AC, -1 ATB, -4 Hide, greater difficulty in dungeon crawls due to squeezing and/or not having enough room to get the entire party on an enemy.

Benefits: +4 grapple, Double carrying capacity, increased damage dice for weapons and such, and the ability to get some extra flanking in (by covering one side and a diagonal)

It seems to me to be a fairly even tradeoff, rather than a particular benefit.
Am I missing something? (I am a pretty new DM :( )

BobVosh
2008-12-08, 07:37 AM
You could nerf the race down to an LA of 0 for the game. This is what I'd give them.

+4 Str, -2 Dex and Int.
Large size (5 ft. reach, 10 ft. space).
50' movement.
Darkvision 60'
+1 with all ranged attack rolls (the Dex penalty is caused by their size and phisiology rather then a lack of ranged combat skill).
+2 to all Spot, Listen and Survival checks.
Unable to make Climb or Tumble check.

Is this balanced? I know a lot of my races are apparently boearderline LA 1.

Throw in an LA and 1 HD and this should be fine. And make it low-light, screw D&D's MH=Darkvision. We are homebrewin' anyway.

SoD
2008-12-08, 07:42 AM
While I'm here...

Why is being large considered a particularly good thing on this thread?

As I see it, they get

Penalties: -1AC, -1 ATB, -4 Hide, greater difficulty in dungeon crawls due to squeezing and/or not having enough room to get the entire party on an enemy.

Benefits: +4 grapple, Double carrying capacity, increased damage dice for weapons and such, and the ability to get some extra flanking in (by covering one side and a diagonal)

It seems to me to be a fairly even tradeoff, rather than a particular benefit.
Am I missing something? (I am a pretty new DM :( )

They also get 10 foot reach, which means for (most) medium creatures to be able to attack them, the large creature gets a free hit at them with an AoO. They'll typically have a strength bonus which makes the -1 ATB giving them a bonus to hit overall, the same with penalty to AC, but bonus to natural armour, they'll end up on top. Yeah, they get a penalty on hide, but a large creature doesn't always want to hide, as a small creature doesn't always need to hide. An armoured large creature won't hide, and chances are, an armoured small creature won't either. If it's large, you can easily cancel out that -4 to hide as well, from feats, skill points, etc.

rubycona
2008-12-08, 07:51 AM
They also get 10 foot reach, which means for (most) medium creatures to be able to attack them, the large creature gets a free hit at them with an AoO. They'll typically have a strength bonus which makes the -1 ATB giving them a bonus to hit overall, the same with penalty to AC, but bonus to natural armour, they'll end up on top. Yeah, they get a penalty on hide, but a large creature doesn't always want to hide, as a small creature doesn't always need to hide. An armoured large creature won't hide, and chances are, an armoured small creature won't either. If it's large, you can easily cancel out that -4 to hide as well, from feats, skill points, etc.

Erm... actually, the centaur only has a reach of 5ft.

That, and I was really referring to the suggested LA 0 centaur, and you had said that being large should be an LA 1 anyway. But... that +4 strength was balanced out by other stat losses, and it didn't have any NA. Being large doesn't inherently mean extra strength; that's calculated separately. Yes, Becoming large grants extra strength (IE, advancement by HD rules or enlarge person spell), but starting that way doesn't. And it doesn't grant NA automatically, either.

So as far as a monster player character is concerned, strength and NA have nothing to do with the size, and more to do with the actual base creature.

Right? So, then, being large, in and of itself, it not particularly an asset, and frequently a hindrance. Unless I'm missing something.

jcsw
2008-12-08, 08:18 AM
Right? So, then, being large, in and of itself, it not particularly an asset, and frequently a hindrance. Unless I'm missing something.


It *usually* gives 10ft reach. Almost all large creatures have increased reach. This reach is considered very useful, especially when combo'd with chain tripper/knockbackers/whatevers. To a player who is not optimizing, the penalties are balanced with the bonuses, but to a player who is building around it, the large size is very valuable, especially since magical size increases generally don't stack.

The 10ft reach is inherent to large creatures, and as such, your centaur is a special case. In itself, being large is generally good.

Kizara
2008-12-08, 08:36 AM
You could nerf the race down to an LA of 0 for the game. This is what I'd give them.

+4 Str, -2 Dex and Int.
Large size (5 ft. reach, 10 ft. space).
50' movement.
Darkvision 60'
+1 with all ranged attack rolls (the Dex penalty is caused by their size and phisiology rather then a lack of ranged combat skill).
+2 to all Spot, Listen and Survival checks.
Unable to make Climb or Tumble check.

Is this balanced? I know a lot of my races are apparently boearderline LA 1.

You can't give a LA 0 race a +4 ability mod, otherwise its fine.

I'd go with +2 Str and call it a day, although you could throw in +2 Con if you wanted it to be on the bleeding edge of power for LA 0.

woodenbandman
2008-12-08, 08:40 AM
Play a bariaur and convince your DM that losing outsiderhood is worth losing a level adjustment (it really is). Bariaur are in Planar Handbook.

rubycona
2008-12-08, 08:44 AM
Not to be argumentative, but...

... isn't that sort of like saying, "Existing in D&D means you have Natural Armor, base races are just unusual," considering that the vast majority of monsters in the MM have Natural Armor? Regardless of size? (though larger ones tend to have it both more often and in greater amount).

Isn't it more accurate to say that Certain monsters (who happen to be large) have a very nice, manipulatable attribute of 10ft reach?

I suppose it's just semantics. SoD was attributing to the Large size all the extra perks that frequently (but certainly not always!) accompany it, and since those extra perks were utterly and completely non applicable to this situation, it threw me off.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-12-08, 08:46 AM
Just try and find a monster/race that lacks some form of special vision. I can think of 3.

rubycona
2008-12-08, 08:49 AM
Just try and find a monster/race that lacks some form of special vision. I can think of 3.

Exactly my point.

Kizara
2008-12-08, 08:49 AM
Not to be argumentative, but...

... isn't that sort of like saying, "Existing in D&D means you have Natural Armor, base races are just unusual," considering that the vast majority of monsters in the MM have Natural Armor? Regardless of size? (though larger ones tend to have it both more often and in greater amount).

Isn't it more accurate to say that Certain monsters (who happen to be large) have a very nice, manipulatable attribute of 10ft reach?

I suppose it's just semantics. SoD was attributing to the Large size all the extra perks that frequently (but certainly not always!) accompany it, and since those extra perks were utterly and completely non applicable to this situation, it threw me off.

He's flat wrong is the thing, as Large Long creatures don't have reach. Dragons being the notable exception (and it says right in their entry that they are an exception).

Centaurs don't not have reach because they are an exception, they don't have reach because they shouldn't according to the size rules (look it up in your PHB if you don't believe me).

On that note, if you gave the above LA 0 centaur no Con bonus but +1-2 natural armor, it would be reasonable.


I think I'm going to make a thread sometime soon about balancing the base races, cause really this is reminding me how annoyed I am that 90% of all base races are markedly inferior to humans.

SoD
2008-12-08, 08:49 AM
You can't give a LA 0 race a +4 ability mod, otherwise its fine.

I'd go with +2 str and call it a day, although you could throw in +2 con if you wanted it to be on the bleeding edge of power for LA 0.

Actually, there are (at least) two +0 LA races with a +4 to a stat. The orc (and water orcs, desert orcs, jungle orcs, etc.) with (typically) +4 str, balanced with -2 int, wis and cha. Also the mongrelfolk with +4 con, balanced with -2 int, -4 cha.


I suppose it's just semantics. SoD was attributing to the Large size all the extra perks that frequently (but certainly not always!) accompany it, and since those extra perks were utterly and completely non applicable to this situation, it threw me off.

Yes, there are some exceptions to the rule, but hardly any. However, I thought you were talking about large size in general, as opposed to in this specific case.

Kizara
2008-12-08, 08:51 AM
Actually, there are (at least) two +0 LA races with a +4 to a stat. The orc (and water orcs, desert orcs, jungle orcs, etc.) with (typically) +4 str, balanced with -2 int, wis and cha. Also the mongrelfolk with +4 con, balanced with -2 int, -4 cha.

Eh, good point, my bad. Sorry.
I should have said "generally" instead of "can't".

SoD
2008-12-08, 08:57 AM
Eh, good point, my bad. Sorry.
I should have said "generally" instead of "can't".

Well don't do it again. I've got my eye on you...:smallwink:

rubycona
2008-12-08, 08:58 AM
Actually, there are (at least) two +0 LA races with a +4 to a stat. The orc (and water orcs, desert orcs, jungle orcs, etc.) with (typically) +4 str, balanced with -2 int, wis and cha. Also the mongrelfolk with +4 con, balanced with -2 int, -4 cha.



Yes, there are some exceptions to the rule, but hardly any. However, I thought you were talking about large size in general, as opposed to in this specific case.

Like I'd said, semantics :P Your comment threw me off, is all. I'll view the perks you attribute to Large size in the same way I view Natural Armor: based on the creature itself, not related to "size" at all. Anything related to large size, I'll just think of the size rules + applicable issues in combat.

SoD
2008-12-08, 09:07 AM
Like I'd said, semantics :P Your comment threw me off, is all. I'll view the perks you attribute to Large size in the same way I view Natural Armor: based on the creature itself, not related to "size" at all. Anything related to large size, I'll just think of the size rules + applicable issues in combat.

Fair enough. I suppose if you homebrewed a large sized race with five foot reach, no natural armour bonus (or a small one), would only really get the penalties and a bonus for carrying weights (oh, and bigger weapons). That would be easier to balance out. Maybe a -2 dex in exchange for +4 str, and a penalty to a mental stat as well (I'd probably look at int, maybe charisma as well), maybe +1 natural armour, could be relatively balanced.

Darrin
2008-12-08, 09:45 AM
It gets awesome stat increases (even greater than that of half dragon, a +3 LA), 50 feet, darkvision, +4 BAB, 4 HD, nice Saving Throw bonuses, 7X skill modifier, 2 feats, +3 NA...


Try breaking it into 6 racial class levels. How about:

1) +2 Str, -2 Int. +1 BAB, 1 HD. Bonus Feat. +1 NA. Speed 40. Saves 0/2/2.
2) +2 Dex, +2 Con.
3) +4 Str. +1 BAB, 2 HD. +2 NA. Saves 0/3/3.
4) +6 Str. +1 BAB, 3 HD. Bonus Feat. Saves 1/3/3.
5) +4 Dex, +4 Con. +3 NA. Speed 50.
6) +8 Str, +2 Wis. +1 BAB, 4 HD. Saves 1/4/4.

jcsw
2008-12-08, 01:14 PM
Play a bariaur and convince your DM that losing outsiderhood is worth losing a level adjustment (it really is). Bariaur are in Planar Handbook.

No, no it really isn't. Compare the Aasimar and the Lesser-Planetouched Aasimar.

One is a rather meh race choice because of LA and one is actually rather broken.

half eaten oreo
2008-12-08, 01:39 PM
Try breaking it into 6 racial class levels. How about:

1) +2 Str, -2 Int. +1 BAB, 1 HD. Bonus Feat. +1 NA. Speed 40. Saves 0/2/2.
2) +2 Dex, +2 Con.
3) +4 Str. +1 BAB, 2 HD. +2 NA. Saves 0/3/3.
4) +6 Str. +1 BAB, 3 HD. Bonus Feat. Saves 1/3/3.
5) +4 Dex, +4 Con. +3 NA. Speed 50.
6) +8 Str, +2 Wis. +1 BAB, 4 HD. Saves 1/4/4.

Races of the wild has the monster class progression for centaurs. It's similar to yours.

Person_Man
2008-12-08, 03:40 PM
While I'm here...

Why is being large considered a particularly good thing on this thread?


Large size allows you allows you to qualify for the Knockback (Races of Stone), Hulking Hurler (Complete Warrior), and War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook). Each is ridiculously powerful in its own way. If you want an explanation of why, just ask.

Weapon damage based on size increases geometrically. The first size increase (or effective size increase) doesn't matter much. But after that, it can matter a lot. 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, 16d8. There are a number of ways to do this - Claws of the Beast, Expansion, various Monk tricks, Greater Mighty Wallop, inappropriately sized weapons, etc. But having a natural size Large PC can mean a big damage bump.

In melee combat, Bull Rush, Grapple, Trip, (or Stand Still) are usually the key to melee based battlefield control. If you're Large, you get a +4 (10-20%ish) bonus to these checks. Furthermore, even if you have only 5 ft of reach, you still have 10 ft of space. So you're clogging up move of an area in the middle of the battlefield. There's no facing in D&D, so a Centaur can Move or Charge sideways. If they use a reach weapon, their horizontal reach is 30 feet. That means more AoO per round, and a better chance of protecting your friends.

So in general, Large size is worth +1 to +3 LA, depending on whether or not its literal Large size or just Powerful Build, and how well it synergizes with your other racial features (especially Str bonus).

I'd also add that Centaurs have 2 hooves. Natural Attacks count for Power Attack. They're also theoretically the only race in D&D capable of using a lance and Leap Attack at the same time, giving them a high bonus to charge damage, assuming the DM would allow such shenanigans.

You can do all of what I've described with a lot of different builds, so its not broken. But clearly the Centaur race is somewhat valuable. As others have suggested, you should check out the Monster Class in Races of the Wild. They don't get Large size until the last level of the class.

Shpadoinkle
2008-12-08, 04:18 PM
If I were to create a centaur race without the +6 LA, this is what I would do:

- Large (long), restricted to weapons that medium-size characters can use, but has extra carrying capacity and grapple bonuses due to being large. (+0.5 LA)
- Move of 60'
- +2 on opposed checks to avoid being tripped.
- Low-light vision
- +2 Str, +2 Con (worth another 0.5 LA when coupled with the high move)
- Two hoof attacks per round, 1d6 Bludgeoning damage each. Standard multiweapon fighting penalties apply, but centaurs are considered to have the Multiweapon fighting feat when fighting with no more than one weapon in thier hands. Using another weapon in your off-hand would have the same penalties (to ALL attacks) as a bipedal character with the same feats you have.
- Does NOT qualify for the War Hulk or Hulking Hurler PrCs. Knockback is a maybe.

So that amounts to about a +3 LA, in my opinion. If you removed the hooves proficiency, and made a character burn a feat on MWF to use them without ungodly penalties, then that might drop it to a (strong) +2.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-08, 05:12 PM
wasn't there a zero LA Centaur in Dragon lance?

Tacoma
2008-12-08, 05:56 PM
Don't break it down. If you check out the tables, most of its stat modifiers are coming from it being Large sized. Just like a Halfling is Small but you don't give him an extra stat modification because of it.

If you break up the stat modifiers and HD you are straight up saying this centaur starts out Medium size and getting larger as he gains XP. And while his gut may increase in size from eating Giant Lizard Burgers I really don't see how it would work otherwise.

I say tell him he can play it with no class levels yet, if his character would otherwise be level 6. But if everyone else is level 3 and he would be starting out at level 3, it's not happening because it's the equivalent of giving him a character three levels above everyone else.

That said, typically racial levels are worth a whole lot less than class levels, even if you're sticking strictly to the core rulebooks. And if you go hog-wild and let them use anything? Nobody would want to play a centaur.

But you're also overlooking the side detriments to playing a centaur:

I don't know if the system really covers horses climbing stairs, but horses don't really climb stairs. Or climb ropes. Note that to climb up a rope, you have to have enough Strength to lift your own body. Work out the math but it's possible the Centaur wouldn't be able to do it. Again, D&D doesn't distinguish between upper body strength and whole body strength.

If his party is merciful they will shoot him when he gets injured rather than let him slowly die.

He can't get a room in an inn. Maybe they'll let him sleep in the stables if he promises to not molest anyone's horses.

His armor weighs more, costs more, and there is absolutely no chance he will find centaur armor while adventuring unless he's out specifically killing centaurs. People often overlook it, but the value of finding a magic item you use instead of selling one you don't and buying one you do is a lot. Most DMs either double the book price for buying, or (in my case) halve book price for sale and half again for buying. This represents the reasonable profit of the merchant and doing half on each end ensures the PC gets ripped off completely only if he sells captured goods to buy new magic items. But since Centaur Boy is always doing this, the value of his armor trade-ins is lost wealth on his character.
This of course has more impact on a character who wears armor. A Centaur Monk isn't going to feel the burn.

When he dies the party will sell his body to the glue factory instead of raising him.

As a Large creature he should require three times the food and water according to the Create Food and Water spell. This uses the line for "horses" ignoring the Centaur's extra half-human parts. Iron rations weigh something like two pounds a day for a human, and water weighs eight pounds per gallon with a human under heavy activity like adventuring and marching drinking a quarter gallon a day at least. So you're talking the average short 3-day hike requiring maybe 6 pounds for food and 6 for water for a human, but 36 pounds for 3 days total for a Centaur. Create Water and Create Food and Waterwill alleviate much of this, but remember most Clerics just do one per day for the whole party and at level 6 the Cleric can't feed everyone and the centaur, right? And every Cleric spell spent on watering the Centaur is one less Cure Minor Wounds or Cure Serious Wounds.

For every Centaur, there is a Taurcen. This is a horse's head stuck on the hips and legs of a human. If the player really wants to play a Centaur, he must know that there is a Taurcen counterpart somewhere in the world who is hunting him mercilessly. The appearance of a Taurcen would be horrifying enough, but few wear pants with obvious consequences. And should a Centaur and his Taurcen match ever touch, the explosion would be heard far away in space.

Heliomance
2008-12-08, 06:19 PM
Don't break it down. If you check out the tables, most of its stat modifiers are coming from it being Large sized. Just like a Halfling is Small but you don't give him an extra stat modification because of it.

If you break up the stat modifiers and HD you are straight up saying this centaur starts out Medium size and getting larger as he gains XP. And while his gut may increase in size from eating Giant Lizard Burgers I really don't see how it would work otherwise.

I say tell him he can play it with no class levels yet, if his character would otherwise be level 6. But if everyone else is level 3 and he would be starting out at level 3, it's not happening because it's the equivalent of giving him a character three levels above everyone else.
I'm sure Savage Species has a monster class progression for it. Yes, it does. Goes like this:

Starting stats: +2 Dex, -2 Int
Speed 40ft
Darkvision

Hit dice gained at 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th levels
Fort: +0 +0 +0 +1 +1 +1
Ref: +2 +3 +3 +3 +3 +4
Will: As Ref

Skill points: (2+Int)x4 at 1st, 2+Int at 2nd, 4th and 6th

Special abilities:
1st: Feat, +2 natural armour, 2 hooves 1d4
2nd: +2 Str, +2 Wis
3rd: +2 Str, +2 Con
4th: Feat, +2 Str, +2 Dex
5th: +2 Str, +2 Con, Speed 50ft
6th: Large size, 2 hooves 1d6


That said, typically racial levels are worth a whole lot less than class levels, even if you're sticking strictly to the core rulebooks. And if you go hog-wild and let them use anything? Nobody would want to play a centaur.

But you're also overlooking the side detriments to playing a centaur:

I don't know if the system really covers horses climbing stairs, but horses don't really climb stairs. Or climb ropes. Note that to climb up a rope, you have to have enough Strength to lift your own body. Work out the math but it's possible the Centaur wouldn't be able to do it. Again, D&D doesn't distinguish between upper body strength and whole body strength.
Exactly, no differentiation between types of strength. This combined with a centaur's +8 Str bonus and the fact they're quadrupeds means that their carrying capacity will be easily more than their own body weight.


If his party is merciful they will shoot him when he gets injured rather than let him slowly die. Why? Magical healing exists.


He can't get a room in an inn. Maybe they'll let him sleep in the stables if he promises to not molest anyone's horses. Okay, that bit's just the DM being a ****.


His armor weighs more, costs more, and there is absolutely no chance he will find centaur armor while adventuring unless he's out specifically killing centaurs. People often overlook it, but the value of finding a magic item you use instead of selling one you don't and buying one you do is a lot. Most DMs either double the book price for buying, or (in my case) halve book price for sale and half again for buying. This represents the reasonable profit of the merchant and doing half on each end ensures the PC gets ripped off completely only if he sells captured goods to buy new magic items. But since Centaur Boy is always doing this, the value of his armor trade-ins is lost wealth on his character.
This of course has more impact on a character who wears armor. A Centaur Monk isn't going to feel the burn.
This is actually a sensible point. Course, the centaur could always invest ranks into Craft (Armoursmithing) and make his own. OTOH, a human-sized chain shirt would fit him fine, as would anything else that didn't involve leg protection.


When he dies the party will sell his body to the glue factory instead of raising him.This part is just the party being *****. Of course they wouldn't, he's a member of the party, they'd raise him.


As a Large creature he should require three times the food and water according to the Create Food and Water spell. This uses the line for "horses" ignoring the Centaur's extra half-human parts. Iron rations weigh something like two pounds a day for a human, and water weighs eight pounds per gallon with a human under heavy activity like adventuring and marching drinking a quarter gallon a day at least. So you're talking the average short 3-day hike requiring maybe 6 pounds for food and 6 for water for a human, but 36 pounds for 3 days total for a Centaur. Create Water and Create Food and Waterwill alleviate much of this, but remember most Clerics just do one per day for the whole party and at level 6 the Cleric can't feed everyone and the centaur, right? And every Cleric spell spent on watering the Centaur is one less Cure Minor Wounds or Cure Serious Wounds. Like anyoneever actually bothers tracking food and water costs.


For every Centaur, there is a Taurcen. This is a horse's head stuck on the hips and legs of a human. If the player really wants to play a Centaur, he must know that there is a Taurcen counterpart somewhere in the world who is hunting him mercilessly. The appearance of a Taurcen would be horrifying enough, but few wear pants with obvious consequences. And should a Centaur and his Taurcen match ever touch, the explosion would be heard far away in space.
Uh... nope. No, no there isn't.

Tacoma
2008-12-08, 08:25 PM
You sir, are correct (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/humor).

Except when it comes to the armor. He needs a full suit of appropriate armor to get any benefit, in the same way a Fighter can't wear a Pixie's platemail as a hat and get the full value.

Large creatures' armor has a specific greater cost and weight. And the cost and weight of armor for non-humanoids is even more expensive. Sure he can make it himself but he needs a shop and tools, and plenty of time spent. And it's not magical.

Thurbane
2008-12-08, 09:53 PM
Horseshoes of Speed are a great item for Centaurs, if the DM allows it. It depends on your reading of the item description, and whether they only work for animals, or all quadrupeds with hooves.

Studoku
2008-12-08, 09:59 PM
As a Large creature he should require three times the food and water according to the Create Food and Water spell. This uses the line for "horses" ignoring the Centaur's extra half-human parts. Iron rations weigh something like two pounds a day for a human, and water weighs eight pounds per gallon with a human under heavy activity like adventuring and marching drinking a quarter gallon a day at least. So you're talking the average short 3-day hike requiring maybe 6 pounds for food and 6 for water for a human, but 36 pounds for 3 days total for a Centaur. Create Water and Create Food and Waterwill alleviate much of this, but remember most Clerics just do one per day for the whole party and at level 6 the Cleric can't feed everyone and the centaur, right? And every Cleric spell spent on watering the Centaur is one less Cure Minor Wounds or Cure Serious Wounds.
This is not a serious problem, since food is relatively cheap at higher levels and centaurs get 3x carrying capacity for being large and quadrupedal, not counting their +8 racial bonus to strength. That's assuming you even keep track of food/water.

Lert, A.
2008-12-08, 11:35 PM
wasn't there a zero LA Centaur in Dragon lance?

Nope.

There was a 0 LA minotaur, but that sucked.

For some reason when Dragonstar put out its Galactic Races book they removed all the racial HD of the recycled races like the centaur. In return, they raised the LA to +3. No, it does not make sense.

Thurbane
2008-12-09, 02:17 AM
Exactly, no differentiation between types of strength. This combined with a centaur's +8 Str bonus and the fact they're quadrupeds means that their carrying capacity will be easily more than their own body weight.
Well, this is this from the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsters.html):

Natural Tendencies: Some creatures simply aren’t made for certain types of physical activity. If it seems clear that a particular creature simply is not made for a particular physical activity, that creature takes a –8 penalty on skill checks that defy its natural tendencies. In extreme circumstances the creature fails the check automatically.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-09, 03:18 AM
A\re Taukens a real race? if they aren;t, what do you think their stats should be? (They sound a lot like Equinals).

Kyace
2008-12-09, 04:20 AM
You sir, are correct (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/humor).

Except when it comes to the armor. He needs a full suit of appropriate armor to get any benefit, in the same way a Fighter can't wear a Pixie's platemail as a hat and get the full value.

Large creatures' armor has a specific greater cost and weight. And the cost and weight of armor for non-humanoids is even more expensive. Sure he can make it himself but he needs a shop and tools, and plenty of time spent. And it's not magical.
The cost for a centaur sized breastplate/barding is 800gp. 950 gp for Masterwork. It is otherwise the same price to enchant as normal armor.
6150gp for Fullplate armor/barding, but since centaurs have a +4 racial bonus to dex, you shouldn't have any trouble reaching breastplate's max dex for a net lost of only +1 AC, or a net gain of +1 if you instead put that money into enchanting the breastplate/barding to +2. :P

Weight is a non-issue, centaur are large quadrupeds: they can carry 3x as much as normal, the armor only weights 2x as much as normal, the breastplate weights relatively less, even ignoring their +8 strength.

Just protecting the centaur's human parts is silly: one of the worse places to be cut is the femoral artery, the human legs need a lot of blood/oxygen to work. Now imagine how much blood a horse needs. :P

Studoku
2008-12-09, 12:44 PM
The cost for a centaur sized breastplate/barding is 800gp. 950 gp for Masterwork. It is otherwise the same price to enchant as normal armor.
6150gp for Fullplate armor/barding, but since centaurs have a +4 racial bonus to dex, you shouldn't have any trouble reaching breastplate's max dex for a net lost of only +1 AC, or a net gain of +1 if you instead put that money into enchanting the breastplate/barding to +2. :P

Weight is a non-issue, centaur are large quadrupeds: they can carry 3x as much as normal, the armor only weights 2x as much as normal, the breastplate weights relatively less, even ignoring their +8 strength.

Just protecting the centaur's human parts is silly: one of the worse places to be cut is the femoral artery, the human legs need a lot of blood/oxygen to work. Now imagine how much blood a horse needs. :P
The main problem that I see with centaur armour is that the centaur would probably be unable to don the armour themselves, because of its shape.

Ilena
2008-12-09, 04:32 PM
One thing i need to mention with that is, the armor would have to be flexable like a horses armor for the centaur part, and if a horse can bend around far enough to bite at the back of his own leg then im sure a centaur can reach there to put armor on,

Kyace
2008-12-10, 01:11 AM
The main problem that I see with centaur armour is that the centaur would probably be unable to don the armour themselves, because of its shape.

The SRD rules for Barding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#bardingMediumCreatureandLarge Creature) is 5 times as long as human armor to put on and the rules for breastplate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#gettingIntoAndOutOfArmor), which the above centaur armor was based on takes 4 minutes to put on without help or 2 minutes with help. Simple math converts this to 20 minutes for the centaur donning armor alone, 10 minutes with help, 5 minutes to don hastily or remove it by themselves or 2 minutes, 30 seconds to remove it with help. Do those numbers sound about right?

Eventually, the centaur might want to have their magic armor enchanted with the Called property from MiC: standard action to don if it is somewhere on the same plane as you. And cheaper than a +1 magic weapon.

Also useful for Centaurs in Armor is the Tooth of Savnok item apparently from Tome of Magic: negates the speed reduction for wearing armor or carrying a load. Also cheaper than a +1 weapon.

Heliomance
2008-12-10, 03:53 AM
Alternatively invest in a Ring of Arming - your weapons and armour are stored in a ring, and you can magically don them as a standard action.

jcsw
2008-12-10, 04:59 AM
Alternatively just sleep in armor and invest in an eternal wand of Ray of Resurgence for your cleric friend to remove the Fatigued Status.

Kizara
2008-12-10, 05:27 AM
The cost for a centaur sized breastplate/barding is 800gp. 950 gp for Masterwork. It is otherwise the same price to enchant as normal armor.
6150gp for Fullplate armor/barding, but since centaurs have a +4 racial bonus to dex, you shouldn't have any trouble reaching breastplate's max dex for a net lost of only +1 AC, or a net gain of +1 if you instead put that money into enchanting the breastplate/barding to +2. :P

Weight is a non-issue, centaur are large quadrupeds: they can carry 3x as much as normal, the armor only weights 2x as much as normal, the breastplate weights relatively less, even ignoring their +8 strength.

Just protecting the centaur's human parts is silly: one of the worse places to be cut is the femoral artery, the human legs need a lot of blood/oxygen to work. Now imagine how much blood a horse needs. :P

Why would you apply masterwork after size adjustment? That doesn't make much sense, and the rules don't really support it.

So, 350 x 4 = 1,400 for MW breastplate
1650 x 4 = 6,600 for MW fullplate.

Not a giant difference, but it matters.


And yes, its the same cost to enchant, cause magic doesn't care about the size of the item its enhancing. Unlike when you make it, as its much harder to make a masterwork suit of fullplate for a colossal dragon then Jordon the Fighter.

JellyPooga
2008-12-10, 06:08 AM
They're also theoretically the only race in D&D capable of using a lance and Leap Attack at the same time...

The mental image I have of this is just awesome!

I'm seeing a bunch of gnolls sitting round a campfire at night in a clearing in the woods, chattering away about the villager they just robbed. Suddenly one of them keels over, a five foot arrow protuding from his chest. There's a crashing in the undergrowth from the treeline and the next thing they know a Centaur leaps the 20' from the trees to the fire, impaling the second gnoll with his lance on the way, scattering the fire and disappearing into the woods on the other side of the clearing. The now dimly lit clearing goes quiet as the remaining two gnolls just stand there in stunned silence, their weapons only half drawn. Somewhere in the distance a wolf howls. The gnolls just look at each other and whimper in fear as the Centaur slowly walks out of the darkness, a pair of matching scimitars held at the ready, a baleful look in his eye...

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-10, 06:16 AM
Nope.

There was a 0 LA minotaur, but that sucked.

For some reason when Dragonstar put out its Galactic Races book they removed all the racial HD of the recycled races like the centaur. In return, they raised the LA to +3. No, it does not make sense.

Actualy just found it... heh there was

Centaur Racial Traits
+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity: Centaurs are strong, but their large stature doesn't allow them the precision and mobility other races enjoy.
Large: As Large creatures, centaurs have a -1 Penalty to Armor class and Attack rolls and -4 to Hide checks, but may use larger weapons and carry double the amount of weight that a medium-sized creature can.
Centaur Base Speed is 40 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Centaurs can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+1 racial bonus to attacks using bows.
Centaurs receive the Run feat for free, due to their equine portions.
+2 racial bonus to Wilderness Lore checks.
Automatic Languages:
Favored Class: Ranger. A centaur's ranger class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing. Being so closely attached to the wilderness, centaurs have an affinity for working closely to it. Often centaur leaders are ranger/druids.

as posted on
http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/14639.aspx
but its in the races of krynn i belive. or the main book can't remember

Eloel
2008-12-10, 06:28 AM
The thing people fail to see is that those HD are a PENALTY, not something good. Removing BAB, skill, and HD, is basically the same process, and improves centaur, not nerf it. Those racial HD force you to take a useless class with average BAB, saves, skills, with almost no class features. If anythin, decrease HD, and make half of it LA, so everyone can have more class levels, with less hitpoints.
(My point here is that, HD are not good from races, yet LA is worse)

Kyace
2008-12-10, 05:28 PM
Why would you apply masterwork after size adjustment? That doesn't make much sense, and the rules don't really support it.
Check the Magic Armor rules: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm)


Armor for Unusual Creatures

The cost of armor for nonhumanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are neither Small nor Medium, varies. The cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same.

Unless we're using vastly different definitions for "support".

Tacoma
2008-12-10, 08:12 PM
I think he meant pectoral support (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_bra).