A Modest Proposal [3e, PEACH]

[Sucrose]

This thread is for a couple of random house rules that I'm considering formalizing, for which I would like the community's opinions.

Both ideas seek to improve the value that one gets when he chooses a certain feat. The first, an add-on to the skill bonus feats (Alertness, Acrobatics, Agile, etc.) would allow you to always treat those skills as class skills.

This would not change the fact that several of these are weak, and there is massive parity between two different skill feats, as several would still key off of rather useless skills. However, it would at least allow those who want a given skill to be able to show their chops at all levels, not just level one.

The second, an alteration to Martial Study, would, rather than giving one only one maneuver, instead allow him/her to pick one of the nine schools, and gain an initiation progression in that school.

This would not change the rate at which the character gains initiator levels, so they would only be able to pick up low-level maneuvers, but it still might be a little too powerful. I suppose that I would just like for single-class characters of the PHB classes to be able to get a bit into the Sublime Way without spending all of their feats in that direction.

If the boards think that these could be decent ideas, then I will do formal write-ups of these ideas. If not, then I welcome ideas for changing my concepts so that they're a bit more balanced.

[BRC]

They sound good, however, how do you intend to mechancially handle the cooking and eating of irish children.

[Ascension]

They sound good, however, how do you intend to mechancially handle the cooking and eating of irish children.

You beat me to it.

I recommend Illithid Savant.

[Sucrose]

They sound good, however, how do you intend to mechancially handle the cooking and eating of irish children.

You know, I really hate how all the good titles are taken.

*Starts plotting revenge against the long-dead Swift*

[mangosta71]

Mmmm, babies.

I like the first idea. Couple quick questions, though (I'll use Alertness as an example) - suppose a guy playing a fighter has already spent points in Listen and Spot before he picks the feat up. Do those points suddenly become full skill points instead of half points (ie 2 ranks => 4)? Are the skills treated as class skills since level 1, or only from that point forward?

[mikeejimbo]

They sound good, however, how do you intend to mechancially handle the cooking and eating of irish children.

Profession (Chef)?

[Starbuck_II]

A still think a decent Proposal was good too: Burn Bums for fuel.
Think of the calories that Bums have (that is how fuel is graded by calories).

[Mr.Bookworm]

They sound good, however, how do you intend to mechancially handle the cooking and eating of irish children.

Irish children heal 1 HP raw, 1d3 cooked, and 1d6 of the chef can succeed on a DC 15 Profession (Chef) check.

If allowed to sit for more than a day without being refridgerated, the Irish children deal 1d2 points of damage, and have a 10% chance to give the eater a disease for every day the child has spoiled.

[Sucrose]

Mmmm, babies.

I like the first idea. Couple quick questions, though (I'll use Alertness as an example) - suppose a guy playing a fighter has already spent points in Listen and Spot before he picks the feat up. Do those points suddenly become full skill points instead of half points (ie 2 ranks => 4)? Are the skills treated as class skills since level 1, or only from that point forward?

Nice catch.

I'd say probably from the level that it is taken onward, just to make the feat as simple as possible. If there's a general consensus that it makes sense for the half-ranks to become whole ranks, however, I could change my mind.

Edit: Immutep, I suppose I was asking for it with the thread title. That said, thanks for your feedback, and I agree, the best way to find out would probably be a few playtests; I just would like some opinions before I go bother some DMs to try out my ideas.

[Immutep]

wow, only one serious reply on thi whole thread! :smallamused: I think it sounds quite an interseting idea, unfortunately i couldn't tell you if it would be balanced or not having never tried to implement them. they don't sound overpowering so you'll have to give them an airing and see how they perform over a campaign imho.

[Mr.Bookworm]

SERIOUSLY SERIOUSNESS OF SERIOUS SERIOUSNESS

I like the first one, and it makes sense fluff-wise.

I, however, am not that familiar with ToB, and thus can't comment on the second one.

[Sinfire Titan]

This thread is for a couple of random house rules that I'm considering formalizing, for which I would like the community's opinions.

Both ideas seek to improve the value that one gets when he chooses a certain feat. The first, an add-on to the skill bonus feats (Alertness, Acrobatics, Agile, etc.) would allow you to always treat those skills as class skills.

This would not change the fact that several of these are weak, and there is massive parity between two different skill feats, as several would still key off of rather useless skills. However, it would at least allow those who want a given skill to be able to show their chops at all levels, not just level one.

The second, an alteration to Martial Study, would, rather than giving one only one maneuver, instead allow him/her to pick one of the nine schools, and gain an initiation progression in that school.

This would not change the rate at which the character gains initiator levels, so they would only be able to pick up low-level maneuvers, but it still might be a little too powerful. I suppose that I would just like for single-class characters of the PHB classes to be able to get a bit into the Sublime Way without spending all of their feats in that direction.

If the boards think that these could be decent ideas, then I will do formal write-ups of these ideas. If not, then I welcome ideas for changing my concepts so that they're a bit more balanced.

The first idea: Alertness doesn't make Spot and Listen class skills. The feat would be worth it if it did (well, not really). But if the DM house rules it, then the instant you take the feat, your ranks change to match the number of skill points you've invested.

2: Martial Study is a great feat as-is, this just makes it more tempting. Melees could use the power boost, but now casters have a serious reason to take it. In all, it would be balanced to allow it, but only if casters are not a problem for you with the idea. If so, then you may have to restrict them a bit.

[UserClone]

You could just leave it as-is for casters, and change it only for non/half-casters...

[Sucrose]

The first idea: Alertness doesn't make Spot and Listen class skills. The feat would be worth it if it did (well, not really). But if the DM house rules it, then the instant you take the feat, your ranks change to match the number of skill points you've invested.

2: Martial Study is a great feat as-is, this just makes it more tempting. Melees could use the power boost, but now casters have a serious reason to take it. In all, it would be balanced to allow it, but only if casters are not a problem for you with the idea. If so, then you may have to restrict them a bit.

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding in the first part; you're right, it doesn't. That's what I'm proposing as a change, along with letting them stay class skills regardless of whether you multiclass after that point.

So, if something becomes permanently a class skill for you after you've invested cross-class skill ranks in it, the cross-class ranks become class ranks? I didn't know that; hadn't heard about such rulings regarding, say, the Human Paragon class feature. As before, I would be willing to make that explicit in the rewrites, if that is the case, or should be.

As for the second part, I suppose that that's true, though I can't think of much that a caster would gain from the new version. The only ways I can see it being useful are for things like the Diamond Mind save-boosting techniques, as the casters aren't really good enough in melee that even performing maneuvers would be worthwhile for them.

[Draz74]

First idea won't hurt anything. My only problem with it is that it still doesn't let you get certain skills as class skills via feats. (I really like my DM's houseruled feat that lets you pick any two skills as class skills.)

Second idea ... well, Martial Study is already a great feat. (Or at least, it would be if you couldn't get magic items that do the same thing, but that's another can of worms. :smallyuk:) If anything, I'd say make full maneuver progression (at reduced initiator level) as a separate feat that requires Martial Study (and maybe Martial Stance) as a prerequisite.

Even then ... think carefully about the implications. Especially for Martial Adepts to steal other Martial Adepts' disciplines with their full initiator levels. (Crusaders with Shadow Hand access?)

Even without inter-ToB-crossover, what thief-Rogue wouldn't take Shadow Hand Martial Study? Or what Monk wouldn't take Setting Sun Martial Study? (Though ... the Monk needs the help. Maybe that's not such a bad fix.)

EDIT

So, if something becomes permanently a class skill for you after you've invested cross-class skill ranks in it, the cross-class ranks become class ranks? I didn't know that; hadn't heard about such rulings regarding, say, the Human Paragon class feature.
No, I don't think this is an official rule anywhere. Though as a DM, I would certainly adopt it as a common-sense houserule.

[Curmudgeon]

I've got a simple proposal to handle Martial Study: it can only be taken with a class level that doesn't advance spellcasting. So those who live and die by the dictum "never lose a spellcasting level" won't take it, and they won't get to pick up any ToB stances or maneuvers.

[Sucrose]

First idea won't hurt anything. My only problem with it is that it still doesn't let you get certain skills as class skills via feats. (I really like my DM's houseruled feat that lets you pick any two skills as class skills.)

...Good point. In fact, I rather like your DM's solution. Perhaps just a write-up of his idea would be good; that way, you have the folks who happen to know how to do something (Skill Training) the folks who know how to do a couple of associated things better than others (the relevant +2 feat) and someone who's supremely good at a given skill (Skill Focus).

A quick, formal write-up of your DM's feat, so that I, and any viewers of this thread, could point it out to DMs to get it to spread.
Skill Training [General]
Benefit: Choose two skills. You may always treat these skills as class skills. You may take this feat more than once.


Second idea ... well, Martial Study is already a great feat. (Or at least, it would be if you couldn't get magic items that do the same thing, but that's another can of worms. :smallyuk:) If anything, I'd say make full maneuver progression (at reduced initiator level) as a separate feat that requires Martial Study (and maybe Martial Stance) as a prerequisite.

Again, a rather nice idea (I do think that requiring two feats is a bit of overkill, though. Maybe just a level prerequisite, like character level 3rd)

If your Martial Study was for a Tiger Claw, Iron Heart, White Raven, or Diamond Mind maneuver, your initiator progression is identical to that of a Warblade.



Even then ... think carefully about the implications. Especially for Martial Adepts to steal other Martial Adepts' disciplines with their full initiator levels. (Crusaders with Shadow Hand access?)

Even without inter-ToB-crossover, what thief-Rogue wouldn't take Shadow Hand Martial Study? Or what Monk wouldn't take Setting Sun Martial Study? (Though ... the Monk needs the help. Maybe that's not such a bad fix.)

At the moment, the idea that it would be an attractive feat for a lot of classes doesn't bother me very much. At the moment, I'm mostly concerned with whether it would allow exploits, but I suppose that if you didn't want everyone to be using the Tome of Battle, that could be a problem.


EDIT

No, I don't think this is an official rule anywhere. Though as a DM, I would certainly adopt it as a common-sense houserule.
Noted.

[Draz74]

At the moment, the idea that it would be an attractive feat for a lot of classes doesn't bother me very much.

Well, I was thinking of the good old rule of thumb of balance: "If you can't imagine a character NOT taking it, it's probably overpowered."

Not always true. But usually.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I would heartily recommend the first one, and not recommend the second. Any Wizard that loses a caster level would snag Diamond Mind in an instant. Every Rogue would take Shadow Hand just for the +2d6 Sneak Attack, let alone everything else it gives. No. It's way, way OP.

[Sucrose]

Well, I was thinking of the good old rule of thumb of balance: "If you can't imagine a character NOT taking it, it's probably overpowered."

Not always true. But usually.


I would heartily recommend the first one, and not recommend the second. Any Wizard that loses a caster level would snag Diamond Mind in an instant. Every Rogue would take Shadow Hand just for the +2d6 Sneak Attack, let alone everything else it gives. No. It's way, way OP.

Well...blarg. Yes, I suppose that you're right. I'm probably making mountains out of molehills about this anyway, given that any core class who wants into the Sublime Way can just multiclass... can anyone think of a way that it could be balanced?

I like the idea of everyone having a bit of the Sublime Way, but that'd probably be more for a specific, variant campaign, rather than something that could be tossed in anywhere willy-nilly.

Anyway, I'm glad that the first idea is generally agreed to be balanced, whether by the Skill Training feat that draz74's DM created, or through my modification of the skill bonus feats. Perhaps the latter could be used in general, and the former could be used whenever there are two skills without an associated skill bonus feat?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well...blarg. Yes, I suppose that you're right. I'm probably making mountains out of molehills about this anyway, given that any core class who wants into the Sublime Way can just multiclass... can anyone think of a way that it could be balanced?Multi-classing with the ToB is already really easy, I'd say it would be better to find all of the homebrew classes and PrCs out there, combined with the "Martial Rogue" style Homebrew variants, and just decide which your players have access to. I love ToB, but one of it's few failings is lack of support.