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Chronos
2008-12-08, 05:22 PM
The Adventuring Commoner
http://h1.ripside.net/wilderness/nolink/14235__sam_l.jpg

Many is the tale of the common man who is called away from the farm to a life of adventure. Usually, the adventure changes the commoner, and he returns home as a wizard, a warrior, or a hero. Sometimes, however, the commoner instead changes the adventurer, and after his travels, he returns home to the life he's always led. Though such a person may see great wonders and accomplish great deeds, he always remains a commoner at heart. Samwise Gamgee, Twoflower, and Sancho Panza are examples of this class.


HD: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Adaptability, key skill, motivation

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Tools of the Trade

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Simple life

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Beginner's luck (one die)

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Tricks of the trade

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Luck feat

8th|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6|Mettle

9th|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+6|Tools of the trade (weapon focus)

10th|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+7|Beginner's luck (two dice)

11th|
+8|
+7|
+3|
+7|

12th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|

13th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Luck feat

14th|
+10|
+9|
+4|
+9|

15th|
+11|
+9|
+5|
+9|Beginner's luck (three dice)

16th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|

17th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Tools of the trade (attack and damage bonus)

18th|
+13|
+11|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+14|
+11|
+6|
+11|Luck feat

20th|
+15|
+12|
+6|
+12|Beginner's luck (four dice)[/table]

Class skills: The adventuring commoner's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The adventuring commoner is proficient with simple weapons and light armor. He is not proficient with any other weapons or armor, nor shields (but see the tools of the trade ability).

Adaptability (ex): Sometimes, an Adventuring Commoner takes to the adventurous life, and decides to pursue it full-time. Levels in the Adventuring Commoner class never count when determining multiclass XP penalties, just as if it were an extra favored class. In addition, each time a character takes a level in his race's normal favored class, the character may replace one level of Adventuring Commoner with a level in that class.

Key skill (ex): Choose any one craft skill other than Alchemy, any one Profession skill, Handle Animal, or any one Knowledge skill other than Arcana, the Planes, or Psionics. At each level of Adventuring Commoner, you gain one rank in this skill for free. In addition, it is always considered a class skill for you, even if you take levels in another class. This ability does not let you exceed the normal maximum skill rank for your level.

Motivation: Every Adventuring Commoner has some motivation for adventuring. Choose one of the following:

Loyalty (ex): You have chosen to take up adventuring to accompany a companion whom you respect highly. You cannot be charmed, compelled, or convinced to harm your companion against your will. Whenever you use the Aid Another action to improve your companion's saving throws or armor class, the bonus granted is increased by half of your class level (round down, minimum 1). Many Adventuring Commoners with this motivation are cohorts.

Revenge (ex): You have suffered some great harm, and have chosen to take up adventuring to seek revenge on the one who harmed you. Choose any single individual. Against that individual, you gain a morale bonus to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws equal to your class level. This does not apply to any other creature, even creatures of the same type as your chosen foe or others involved in the same combat.

Magic Item: You have somehow come into possession of a magical item, and have decided to adventure to put it to use. You gain a magical item chosen by the DM. This will usually be a minor item worth 2000 GP or less, though it may be considerably more powerful, in which case you typically do not have full knowledge or control of its abilities. If the item is a weapon with which you're not proficient, your Tools of the Trade class ability (see below) applies to it.

Tools of the trade (ex): The tools you use regularly feel more comfortable in your hand than a weapon, and you're familiar with their weight and balance. At second level, when wielding a tool associated with your key skill as an improvised weapon, or a regular weapon based on such a tool, you are treated as proficient with it, and suffer no penalty for its use. For instance, if you chose Craft: Blacksmithing as your key skill, then you could wield hammers and warhammers, and if you chose Profession: Farmer, you could wield a scythe, trident, or threshing flail. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.

At ninth level, you gain the benefits of the Weapon Focus feat for all of your tools of the trade. At seventeenth level, you gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and +2 bonus to damage with your tools.

Simple life (ex): Despite your adventures, you still value the simple things in life, and your personality and motivations are fundamentally different from most adventurers. At fourth level, you receive a +2 bonus to saving throws versus spells or effects of the Enchantment school.

Beginner's luck (ex): Even an amateur adventurer can get in a lucky hit occasionally. At fifth level, you gain an extra die roll you can use each day. Before making an attack roll, saving throw, or check, you can choose to roll this extra die in addition to the regular roll, and use the best result.

At tenth level, and again every five levels thereafter, you gain another extra die each day. You can use all of these extra dice on the same roll, or spread them out throughout the day. You must decide how many dice you will roll before using this ability.

Tricks of the trade (ex): At sixth level, your mastery of your chosen trade is such that you can often find ways to apply it to seemingly unrelated endeavors. You can make a check in your key skill in place of any other skill in which you have at least one rank. Use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Int mod (minimum 1).

Luck feats: At seventh level, and again every six levels after, you gain a luck feat as a bonus feat. You must meet all prerequisites as normal.

Mettle (ex): Beginning at eighth level, you can shrug off magical effects that could harm you. If you successfully make a Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce (rather than negate) a spell or other magical effect, the magic has no effect on you at all. Any spell that is normally negated by a successful saving throw is unaffected by this ability.

SurlySeraph
2008-12-08, 06:56 PM
Hm. It would be good to fill the dead levels, and I think it would make sense to give this class more class skills.
For the Revenge motivation, could you add a way to change your enemy? If you end up actually killing the person you hate, you've become far weaker.

Pie Guy
2008-12-08, 07:18 PM
Hm. It would be good to fill the dead levels, and I think it would make sense to give this class more class skills.
For the Revenge motivation, could you add a way to change your enemy? If you end up actually killing the person you hate, you've become far weaker.

Not really,you have to fight all the other guys without the bonus, but you're awesome for the three roundsyou're fighting.

Magnor Criol
2008-12-08, 07:28 PM
Not really,you have to fight all the other guys without the bonus, nut you're awesome for the three roundsyou're fighting..

Agreed. You only ever got that bonus against one specific creature anyhow, so when you kill that creature it's not like you just lost bonuses that you got all the time.

Basically, the revenge motivation is a good setup for a nice, emotional confrontation in which your character's passion drives them to excel, and hopefully defeat the enemy. Up to that point, however, and then afterwards whether they win or not, they're no better or worse off for it.

I like this class a lot - the theme it's based on, of "average joe shoved into adventuring," has always appealed to me - but I do agree with SurlySeraph that filling the dead levels may be nice, even with just situational, mostly flavorful bonuses.

Perhaps some sort of "down-to-earth" ability that nets them social skill bonuses when interacting with other commoner-types (not necessarily the Commoner class, just common people you meet in towns).

Or some sort of later bonuses you get based on what motivation you chose.

Chronos
2008-12-08, 07:44 PM
Hm. It would be good to fill the dead levels, and I think it would make sense to give this class more class skills.I have no objections to either of those... Any suggestions?

As for the revenge motivation, yes, it stops doing much if you do ever settle scores with your enemy, but the idea is that you'd coordinate with the DM for your target to be the main villain of the campaign. And after beating the main villain, it's in the spirit of the class to either retire, or to switch to some other class (made easier by the Adaptability feature).

Al-Ashrad
2008-12-08, 08:06 PM
A couple designer's notes questions more than anything else...

Why does the Commoner have a good Will save?

Why does the Commoner have a d8 Hit Die?

Magnor Criol
2008-12-08, 08:37 PM
A couple designer's notes questions more than anything else...

Why does the Commoner have a good Will save?

Why does the Commoner have a d8 Hit Die?

Just guessing on the thematic choices here, but I'd say he gets a good Will save because he's very determined to pursue his motivation, and he has a d8 because he's a hardy, blue-collar worker sort of guy. Honestly, the only reason the NPC commoner is a measly d4 is so that it can be the absolute worst at everything; thematically, it would make sense for it to have a higher die.

As for this class, though, maybe a lowering to d6 might be in order, I dunno. Or what if it scaled? It starts out low, but as the character adventures more and thus gets tougher, the hit die size increases?

I'll try to come up with some more dead level ability suggestions later, I've got to study for finals now...

Ziegander
2008-12-08, 08:38 PM
Is this honestly supposed to be balanced against any real PC class? Because it isn't. At all. An Expert is still basically as good, and a Warrior would give it a run for it's money if the Warrior had even a couple Fighter feats (I'm talking the Expert and Warrior NPC classes). Sadly, the Fighter blows this class completely out of the water, and anything with any spellcasting, yes even the Adept NPC class, makes it look like a fool. This is really nothing more than a very slightly improved NPC class (of course it's lots more powerful than the normal Commoner, but compare it to the Adept, Expert, and Warrior which are still NPC classes).

Chronos
2008-12-08, 09:09 PM
Is this honestly supposed to be balanced against any real PC class? Because it isn't. At all.OK, so give suggestions to improve it, then. The reason I came up with it is because the archetype is so common in fiction, but the current classes don't really give a way to support it without crippling the party. I'm a bit constrained in what abilities I can give the class, because anything too flashy would make it worse for what it's supposed to do.

Draz74
2008-12-08, 09:16 PM
It may still need dead levels filled, and it may be weaker than most PC classes (which is, arguably, appropriate), but I just want to say this is a really cool idea.

Wish I had any ideas for additions. I've actually run into some similar problems in my own homebrewing, and haven't had any strokes of brilliance yet. :smalleek:

Shadow_Elf
2008-12-08, 09:27 PM
Why not give them a feature called Common Sense? The irony is that this is a "commoner" class, and "common" sense isn't actually particularly common.

Maybe this would allow them to improvise certain skills checks? I don't play 3.Xe, so I don't know how this would work.

Chronos
2008-12-08, 10:53 PM
Hmm, Common Sense could work. A bonus to Wis-based skill checks, perhaps? And I suppose that Sense Motive would be a good class skill, too.

Another possibility I'm toying with is something to increase their carrying capacity. But I'm not sure whether I like having a Nodwick vibe to it or not.

Ziegander
2008-12-09, 12:27 AM
I'm trying to think of "mundane" "common" skills and abilities to add to the class to keep the flavor but still make it a viable PC class, and I just can't. A Commoner can't be a PC, no matter what. What does a bonus to Wisdom based skill even do? Great, you Spot and Listen everything! Now kill it! Oh... you can't you're a Commoner. What does a bonus to carrying capacity do? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That's what bags of holding are for.

The game leaves the realm of any realism by 6th-9th level. Beyond that threshold characters like, "Joe-Shmoe, the Heavy Drinker" can't possibly compete. Characters are exploding castles, and killing monsters with the point of a finger by that point. Gaining Weapon Focus with a single improvised weapon, and rerolling a single die roll IS NOT COMPETING.

However, all that being said, here is a class that is somewhat similar thematically, that perhaps you can draw some inspiration on to improve your idea. It was written by LordPendragon over at the Wizards' boards some time ago.

Unlikely Hero

Ever wonder how all those whiny kids in movies (anime especially) always develop some super power when the going gets rough?? Simple... they're all Unlikely Heroes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/silverhawk79/Fire%20Emblem/fireemblem_3.jpg


Game Rule Information
Unlikely Heroes have the following game statistics.

Abilities - Constitution and Dexterity are the most important abilities for most Unlikely Heroes, but any abilities can be focused on. High Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is required in order to cast powerful spells.
Alignment - Any.
Hit Die - D6

Class Skills
The Unlikely Hero's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level - (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level - 4 + Int modifier


Lvl BAB F R W Features
1 0 0 0 2 Act of Desperation
2 1 0 0 3 Character Shield (+1/+1)
3 2 1 1 3
4 3 1 1 4 Damn Lucky (No fumbles)
5 3 1 1 4 Character Shield (+2/+1)
6 4 2 2 5
7 5 2 2 5 Heartfelt Presence
8 6 2 2 6 Character Shield (+3/+2)
9 6 3 3 6
10 7 3 3 7 Act of Desperation (2)
11 8 3 3 7 Character Shield (+4/+2)
12 9 4 4 8
13 9 4 4 8 Damn Lucky (Double roll)
14 10 4 4 9 Character Shield (+5/+3)
15 11 5 5 9
16 12 5 5 10 Urgent Need
17 12 5 5 10 Character Shield (+6/+3)
18 13 6 6 11
19 14 6 6 11 Act of Desperation (3)
20 15 6 6 12 Character Shield (+7/+4)
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Unlikely Hero.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies
An Unlikely Hero is proficient with the Dagger, Light Mace, Club, Morningstar, Shortspear, Longspear, and Quarterstaff. she is also proficient with light armour and shields.

Act of Desperation (Ex)
The Unlikely Hero can emulate the abilities or spells of another base class, up to 10 times per day. However, after using an Act of Desperation, the Hero must wait 5 minutes before attempting another.

This ability is only usable if an ally's HP is equal to or less than half their max HP. This is an immediate action, and may be used in response to an effect that would reduce an ally's HP to the required amount, or any effect that would kill an ally regardless of damage. Using an AoD in this way can heal a character that would otherwise be dead, negate the attack using spells such as Displacement or Mage Armor, or even simply cast a spell to dispel the one dealing the damage. Self-induced damage, or damage dealt by one ally to another, does not meet the requirements for AoD, unless the ally dealing the damage is being compelled to do so by an enemy. The Hero is considered an ally of herself for the purposes of this ability.

Even though an Act of Desperation is an immediate action, if the ability emulated has its own set action use, then Act of Desperation is considered that sort of action (and abilities that normally aren't immediate actions cannot be emulated as such). Note that, because of this limitation, using an AoD to counter an effect would require the Hero to use an ability that can be activated with an immediate action. Also, when emulating a supernatural or spell-like ability, that ability is still treated as supernatural or spell-like, even though Act of Desperation is an extraordinary ability.

The Hero may only emulate an ability that requires a class level equal to or less than her own class level. If the ability has a listed duration, it lasts for that duration, or a number of rounds equal to 5 + the Hero's class level, whichever is less. If it is permanent, it lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + the Hero's class level.

Also, an AoD may be used to gain a feat or skill. When used to gain a feat, the Hero may choose any feat which she qualifies for; if the feat chosen is a Fighter bonus feat, the Hero treats her class levels as Fighter levels for the purposes of determining base attack bonus. When used to gain a skill, treat the Hero as having max ranks in that skill (treat it as a class skill for her Unlikely Hero class levels when determining max ranks); she also gains Skill Mastery with that skill. These effects last as long as any other permanent effect gained through Act of Desperation.

When using an ability such as Rage, Bardic Music, or Flurry of Blows that scales with class level, use the Hero's class level as her effective class level of the appropriate class. The Hero must meet all prerequisites for any feats she takes, and meet all equipment/alignment/whatever restrictions on abilities.

At level 10, the Hero can combine 2 AoD effects into a single use. At level 19, she can combine 3 into 1.

For instance, Steve, a level 5 Unlikely Hero with 20 max HP gets dropped to 10 HP by an enemy's Fireball. She could use Act of Desperation as an immediate action to Rage as a level 5 Barbarian, or gain Flurry of Blows for 10 rounds, or as a standard action on her own turn to cast Invisibility on herself as a 5th level Wizard, or cast an Empowered Cure Light Wounds as a 5th level Cleric. However, before her turn, Steve gets hit with another enemy's greatsword, and takes 12 damage. He decides to use her Act of Desperation to gain the Toughness feat (a Fighter ability, one bonus feat) for 10 rounds, keeping her at 1 HP. Since she used her AoD to stay alive, she won't be able to use another for 5 minutes, and should probably look into being healed within 1 minute, because otherwise losing the 3 HP from Toughness will make her fall back to -1.

If Steve were a level 11 Unlikely Hero, she could use her AoD to cast Heal on herself as an 11th level Cleric, while at the same time entering Rage as an 11th level Barbarian (including the bonus from Greater Rage).
Character Shield (Ex)
The Unlikely Hero gains the first listed bonus to AC, initiative, any opposed rolls to resist the effects of an attack or effect, and any skill checks made as a reaction to avoid or detect danger. She gains the second listed bonus to all saves. These bonuses stack with all other bonuses.

Damn Lucky (Ex)
At 4th level, the Unlikely Hero may reroll any 1 on an attack, skill check, save, or ability check roll.

At 13th level, she may roll twice on all attack, skill, save, and ability rolls, and use the higher roll.

Heartfelt Presence (Su)
When using an AoD to use an ability that would affect one or more allies, the Hero doesn't need line of sight or line of effect to those allies. However, the allies must still be within the effect's range.

Urgent Need (Ex)
When using an AoD to use an ability that is normally a standard action, the Hero may instead treat that ability as an immediate action.

Magnor Criol
2008-12-09, 01:35 AM
While you're absolutely right in your power analysis, Ziegander, I think there's still a flaw in your logic.

You're assuming that someone who takes this class is looking to be balanced with wizards and fighters and whatnot, and I don't think that's the case.

Assuming I've interpereted Chronos' intention here correctly, This is supposed to emulate the archetype of a plucky average joe who's thrust, probably unwillingly, into the life of adventure, and so no, they will not actually compare with someone who's trained all their life at the various arts needed for adventuring.

And any player who takes this class will be looking to play a character like that. They won't be expecting to be on par with a veteran warrior.

Now, will their character start seeing the prowess of said veteran warrior or experienced mage and be interested in pursing those arts? Certainly yes (well, probably yes, depending on their personality), and at that point they'll start taking levels in more powerful classes - and that's what Adaptability is for.

This isn't meant to be a powerful class. This is meant to be a more-lucky-than-skilled guy who manages somehow to not drag down, although not be equal with, "normal" adventurers until they start becoming a "normal" adventurer themselves.

Bonuses to your senses aren't as light as you're making them to be, and Bags of Holding aren't always available or effective.

If someone does stick through all 20 levels of this class, well, they clearly considered the roleplay potential and flavor of this class to be worth the power they're sacrificing. Some people do that.

Fizban
2008-12-09, 05:51 AM
I tend to take the common guy forced into adventuring as winning by: force of will, tougher than you, and just doesn't fail.

No reason the heroic commoner can't at least have some passive heroic abilities. Definitely get Mettle in there somewhere, and I remember a PrC giving an Improved Mettle that works just like you'd think: you never take more than the partial effect. High level ability, but the heroic commoner just doesn't go down to Finger of Death. Slippery Mind does well for a force of will that can't be broken. Heroic commoners tend to pick themselves up a lot, so while they only have a d8 HD, they have some reserve of hit points that can fill them back up to at least half once or twice a day.

Now, the everyman just doesn't fail. He keeps trying until he succeeds, and unlike heroes, he gets to try again more than once a fight. The HC needs more rerolling, I'd say just a straight 1/2 levels, or 1/level after a certain point, and make it the standard reroll after seeing die but before announcing result. He doesn't get much in the way of power, so he has to make every shot count, and when the everyman wants something done, he gets it done.

Finally, DnD is a combat centered game, so you need some kind of boost in combat. I could see temporary use of fighter feats, an inspiration-like mechanic, rage, all kinds of stuff. I think the easiest mechanic, and the one that works best with the "just gets by somehow, no fancy stuff", would be a set bonus to damage with tools of the trade. I'd say a flat +1/level would work well enough. Doesn't compare with sneak attack (and is actually the same amount as the feat Craven all by itself), doesn't really compare with the stuff you can do with fighter bonus feats, and sure as heck doesn't stand up to spells, but it gives him an edge.

With these, the Adventuring Commoner would: throw off effects that shake his resolve, ignore magic that would slay him outright, take a beating and get back up as if he hadn't when it counts, fight against the odds and succeed, and just deal more damage with what he knows. Not much optimization, and not much in the way of big fancy stuff, but enough to stand up to what skilled adventurers face and fight at their side.

Finally, I'd edit the Loyalty choice to allow for non-servant based loyalty. Can't beat the power of love, can we? (too lazy to look up tvtropes link)

Zeta Kai
2008-12-09, 06:37 AM
Most of the above respondents covered my minor qualms with this class (dead levels = booh!), but I just wanted to say that I really like this class, & it's a shame that standard D&D has never let a person pursue this concept before. Good job, Chronos.

Ziegander
2008-12-09, 07:10 AM
While you're absolutely right in your power analysis, Ziegander, I think there's still a flaw in your logic.

You're assuming that someone who takes this class is looking to be balanced with wizards and fighters and whatnot, and I don't think that's the case.

Right, which is why I asked in the first place: Is this supposed to be balanced against other PC classes? Because if it is, we have a big problem. If it isn't... well it's little more powerful than an NPC class and not too many people play Experts do they?


Now, will their character start seeing the prowess of said veteran warrior or experienced mage and be interested in pursing those arts? Certainly yes (well, probably yes, depending on their personality), and at that point they'll start taking levels in more powerful classes - and that's what Adaptability is for.

This is a huge problem for me. What you have here is a weak class, made intentionally weak, but easy to multiclass out of. What is the point of taking the class at all if you are actively encouraged, and expected, to multiclass out of it? You don't get the awesome dippitude of a Fighter's bonus feats. Don't even say flavor, because instead of taking 2, 4, 6 levels of this really weak class you could simply include in your backstory that you were a Commonder before your village was destroyed, and for the last four years you've managed to scrape out a living in the wilderness vowing to destroy your foes. You are playing a Ranger. Not a Commoner.


This isn't meant to be a powerful class. This is meant to be a more-lucky-than-skilled guy who manages somehow to not drag down, although not be equal with, "normal" adventurers until they start becoming a "normal" adventurer themselves.

If you aren't as skilled or as powerful than your party mates you ARE dragging them down. If you aren't performing as strongly that means your other party mates have to expend even more resources than they would if you were because the challenges you face will still be calculated with CR equivalent to the Adventuring Commoner's level and the rest of his party. There's nothing wrong with being lucky rather than good. That's fine and dandy, but there is something wrong with being completely average in everyway when the rest of your party is above average to exceptional across the board.


If someone does stick through all 20 levels of this class, well, they clearly considered the roleplay potential and flavor of this class to be worth the power they're sacrificing. Some people do that.

I understand that, and that's fine, but that's like saying the Adept is a great class because if I play it all the way to 20 levels and enjoy the roleplay experience it must be mechanically balanced. That's not really how I prefer to design my classes, I'm just saying.

Please do look at LordPendragon's class, though. It does some of what you want, but it does it with more adaptability and power.

One last thing I want to toss out: Would you be averse to using Tome of Battle maneuvers and stances? If not, I know of a luck based discipline that would work well with this class, and I could try and help to homebrew a "commoner" fighting style based on mundane tools and very practical, mundane abilities.

Mercenary Pen
2008-12-09, 08:10 AM
Here's a possible class feature to add:

Life of hardship:
Once per day, the adventuring commoner can activate this ability to gain temporary hit points equal to their level + Con Mod as well as a +2 bonus to fortitude saves lasting for 1 round per 2 levels.

Hopefully this gives you something to work from, though it'll probably need tweaking because I'm not really a skilled 3.5 homebrewer.

Chronos
2008-12-09, 06:03 PM
Thanks for the constructive criticisms, Fizban.

No reason the heroic commoner can't at least have some passive heroic abilities. Definitely get Mettle in there somewhere, and I remember a PrC giving an Improved Mettle that works just like you'd think: you never take more than the partial effect. High level ability, but the heroic commoner just doesn't go down to Finger of Death. Slippery Mind does well for a force of will that can't be broken. Heroic commoners tend to pick themselves up a lot, so while they only have a d8 HD, they have some reserve of hit points that can fill them back up to at least half once or twice a day.OK, Mettle definitely works, and possibly Improved Mettle. Maybe put that in at the dead level at 8th? Slippery Mind seems a bit redundant with a good Will save and the Simple Life ability I already have in there, though-- It's basically three different means to the same end.


Now, the everyman just doesn't fail. He keeps trying until he succeeds, and unlike heroes, he gets to try again more than once a fight. The HC needs more rerolling, I'd say just a straight 1/2 levels, or 1/level after a certain point, and make it the standard reroll after seeing die but before announcing result. He doesn't get much in the way of power, so he has to make every shot count, and when the everyman wants something done, he gets it done.The other difference between the standard re-rolling mechanic and Beginner's Luck is that with a normal re-roll, you have to accept the result of the re-roll, even if it's worse than the original. So for instance, with a standard re-roll, if you roll a hit with your first attack roll, you're not going to spend a reroll to try for a crit, since you face the risk of missing. With Beginner's Luck, though, if you roll two dice and one's a regular hit while the other threatens a critical, you'd choose the crit. It basically gives you a better chance of getting things like natural 20s (and note that a scythe is a Tools of the Trade weapon).

Finally, DnD is a combat centered game, so you need some kind of boost in combat. I could see temporary use of fighter feats, an inspiration-like mechanic, rage, all kinds of stuff. I think the easiest mechanic, and the one that works best with the "just gets by somehow, no fancy stuff", would be a set bonus to damage with tools of the trade. I'd say a flat +1/level would work well enough. Doesn't compare with sneak attack (and is actually the same amount as the feat Craven all by itself), doesn't really compare with the stuff you can do with fighter bonus feats, and sure as heck doesn't stand up to spells, but it gives him an edge.Yes and no... Sneak Attack may be more average damage, but it's situational. Even in the best of circumstances, you can't count on being eligible for Sneak Attack every attack, and a lot of things are immune to it. On the other hand, I could just add Sneak Attack itself, but only when wielding a tool. Another possibility (and this would tie into the discussion about re-rolls) would be to increase threat range with level, such that a high-level AC would threaten on every hit.


Finally, I'd edit the Loyalty choice to allow for non-servant based loyalty. Can't beat the power of love, can we? (too lazy to look up tvtropes link)Good point; I'll edit that as soon as I can figure out a way to phrase it.

Quoth Ziegander:
However, all that being said, here is a class that is somewhat similar thematically, that perhaps you can draw some inspiration on to improve your idea. It was written by LordPendragon over at the Wizards' boards some time ago.
It looks to me like the basis of that class is the use of other class's abilities when desparate enough, which isn't really what I'm looking for. No matter how desparate he got, Samwise never let loose with one of Gandalf's fireballs. What he did do was just keep plodding along and not giving up, which is much more the feel I'm looking for here.

One last thing I want to toss out: Would you be averse to using Tome of Battle maneuvers and stances? If not, I know of a luck based discipline that would work well with this class, and I could try and help to homebrew a "commoner" fighting style based on mundane tools and very practical, mundane abilities.I'd rather not make it require Tome of Battle, since there are enough people who (justly or unjustly) don't use it, and I'd prefer to keep it accessible without ToB. But I would have no objection to something ToB-like, if it can be made reasonably self-contained.

Mercenary Pen, that "Life of hardship" might be a good idea. Give me some time to think of how to polish it up a bit.

Ziegander
2008-12-09, 11:56 PM
Quoth Ziegander:
It looks to me like the basis of that class is the use of other class's abilities when desparate enough, which isn't really what I'm looking for. No matter how desparate he got, Samwise never let loose with one of Gandalf's fireballs. What he did do was just keep plodding along and not giving up, which is much more the feel I'm looking for here.

Well, that's why I said to take a look, not use everything that the class does. However, allow me to argue a few points. Gandalf never even used a Fireball in the books or in the movies. Aragorn did swing his sword around quite skillfully. Samwise literally said after bashing an Orc's head in, "I think I'm getting the hang of this," which is to say, getting the hang of that warrior combat thing that all of the other "PCs" seemed to have going. You can combine the "desperate copycat" stuff with "plodding along and not giving up" and come up with what may feel like a good Adventuring Commoner class.


I'd rather not make it require Tome of Battle, since there are enough people who (justly or unjustly) don't use it, and I'd prefer to keep it accessible without ToB. But I would have no objection to something ToB-like, if it can be made reasonably self-contained.

I'll try and think of something...

mikeejimbo
2008-12-10, 12:06 AM
I think Twoflower would be another class entirely... the Tourist!

Heliomance
2008-12-10, 03:22 AM
Did he have a Yendorian Platinum Credit Card?

Ziegander
2008-12-10, 05:13 AM
I think I have an idea. You can use the Inspiration Points mechanic of the Journeyman, but instead of making the class Intelligence based you make them Constitution based.

Inspiration Points are really straight forward. You have a number of them that you start each encounter with, and you spend some to do stuff. The stuff is whatever class features you make that use Inspiration. Instead of Inspiration you could call them... something else, but again, if you're just going to use the same mechanic there isn't a huge reason to is there?

Some sample class features:

Tough it Out: By spending an inspiration point you can add your constitution modifier to your choice of AC, Reflex saves, or Will saves for 1 round.

The Tough Get Going: By spending an inspiration point you add 5ft/point of Constitution modifier to your base land speed for 1 round.

And one that has nothing to do with Inspiration, but I like it anyway:

School of Hard Knocks: Any time you make a skill or ability check you may deal a number of nonlethal damage to yourself up to your Constitution modifier to add that number to the check result. You may only do this once per check.

EDIT: Hey, two more!

Grit And Bear It: By spending two inspiration points you ignore any Fort or Will save based effect for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier, after which time if the duration is still active you suffer the effects as normal until the duration is up.

Put Your Back Into It!: By spending one inspiration point you add your Constitution modifier to a single damage roll. You may spend additional inspiration points to multiply the bonus to the damage roll. If you spend two points this way, you may make a free Trip attempt against the struck foe. If you spend three points this way, a foe damaged by your attack must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 Commoner level+Your Constitution modifier) or become dazed for 1 round.

EDIT 2!: I'm thinking you can get away with giving the Adventuring Commoner some more Inspiration points than the Factotum gets simply because the Commoner won't get any form of spellcasting. Say you start with 3 and end with 15? Maybe throw in a mechanism to allow the Commoner to regain Inspiration during rounds in which he hasn't spent any (I have already written such a mechanic if you're interested)?

Chronos
2008-12-10, 10:00 PM
OK, I've added Sense Motive to the class skills, and put in Mettle at 8th level. The rest, I'm still thinking about.

Lappy9000
2008-12-10, 10:45 PM
It could use a little more just to spice it up a touch, but you done good, Chronos. I really like the feel of this class. Nice work!

Fizban
2008-12-11, 12:20 AM
Thanks for the constructive criticisms, Fizban.
OK, Mettle definitely works, and possibly Improved Mettle. Maybe put that in at the dead level at 8th? Slippery Mind seems a bit redundant with a good Will save and the Simple Life ability I already have in there, though-- It's basically three different means to the same end.
True, but Simple Life is just a +2 bonus, which while not bad, isn't near as useful as another save. Slippery Mind might not be the best choice though, since you do act under their control for a round. I seem to remember a feat that let you give up your next action for another save: that would be more powerful, but make more sense with the tough it out theme.


The other difference between the standard re-rolling mechanic and Beginner's Luck is that with a normal re-roll, you have to accept the result of the re-roll, even if it's worse than the original. So for instance, with a standard re-roll, if you roll a hit with your first attack roll, you're not going to spend a reroll to try for a crit, since you face the risk of missing. With Beginner's Luck, though, if you roll two dice and one's a regular hit while the other threatens a critical, you'd choose the crit. It basically gives you a better chance of getting things like natural 20s (and note that a scythe is a Tools of the Trade weapon).
Didn't think of that, but you're still having to use the point before you've rolled, instead of choosing to use it afterwards. I'd rather reroll a low roll and risk rolling lower than blow an ability use and get a 15-20 on the first roll. It may come out to the same average, but it still feels less awesome to me.


Yes and no... Sneak Attack may be more average damage, but it's situational. Even in the best of circumstances, you can't count on being eligible for Sneak Attack every attack, and a lot of things are immune to it. On the other hand, I could just add Sneak Attack itself, but only when wielding a tool. Another possibility (and this would tie into the discussion about re-rolls) would be to increase threat range with level, such that a high-level AC would threaten on every hit.
Sneak attack may be situational, but it's usable enough that builds based on it don't get shouted down as being too suboptimal. Sneak attack seems to limited for the adventuring commoner, as it represents hitting a weak point for massive damage. Another option would be allowing a flat +xd6 on a single attack, similar to the Mountain Hammer strikes from ToB. Or an ability like the Monk and Fighter substitutions from PHBII that allow you to make an attack for double damage as a full round action (and make all your attacks deal double damage for that round, for extra AoO goodness).

I like the idea of the commoner making one big attack to bring down the bad guy, though it turns into a one-trick pony if all you do is: big attack, luck reroll, repeat. Following that, I'd actually give them the +1/level on tools that I suggested earlier, and throw in a "one big attack" with either extra dice or damage multiplier (without a crit) ability around the time when everyone else starts making big full attacks.

Another point on the tools entry: you might want to specifically suggest making all obscure tools martial weapons, or you could have a problem with exotic weapons for some tools (fisherman's net, whaler's harpoon, etc. Most exotic weapons are from hunting professions), martial for others (scythe, picthfork, miner's pick, bows, threshing flail), and simple for others (sickle).


Good point; I'll edit that as soon as I can figure out a way to phrase it.


Don't need anything special, just a quick edit.

Loyalty: you adventure due to your loyalty to someone else. Weather the duty to deliver a desperate message to the king, friendship with a kindly master, or to protect the love of your life, your bond gives you the strength to go on.

newbDM
2008-12-11, 05:37 AM
Although I am not skilled enough to comment on the mechanics, I love the concept Chronos.

As a commoner fan who has wanted to do a common/NPC class campaign for over a year I find it very appealing.

Darth Stabber
2008-12-11, 11:35 AM
I Like the flavor and such of the class, but all in all I think that a reflavor of the savant from dragon compendium would be an apropriate simulation of the guy who learns from his heroic comrades and picks up on what they are doing. They have some fighting, they have some skill monkey, they have some arcane casting, they have some divine casting, they study what others do and emulate that. Reflavor the class: Instead of being a cloistered academic they are folks who started adventuring and learning various skills, be it magic, stealth, or swordplay, and they incorporated all these disparate elements into a plan to survive the perils of Greyhawk(or where ever you happen to be).

Then again, I have a tendency to try reflavoring before I ever put on my homebrew hat.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-11, 04:10 PM
Tricks of the trade (ex): At sixth level, your mastery of your chosen trade is such that you can often find ways to apply it to seemingly unrelated endeavors. You can make a check in your key skill in place of any other skill in which you have at least one rank. Use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Int mod (minimum 1).


"There is no problem that cannot be overcome by an imaginative and vigorous use of the animal husbandry skill"
-Red Mage

Ziegander
2008-12-12, 12:56 AM
You have inspired me! To create The Everyman, Commonfolk Champion or Constitution Factotum! I'll post it up shortly, hope you don't think I'm trying to steal your thunder, but thanks for the inspiration!

Chronos
2008-12-12, 07:24 PM
I Like the flavor and such of the class, but all in all I think that a reflavor of the savant from dragon compendium would be an apropriate simulation of the guy who learns from his heroic comrades and picks up on what they are doing. They have some fighting, they have some skill monkey, they have some arcane casting, they have some divine casting, they study what others do and emulate that.No, that's exactly not what I'm trying for, here. The Adventuring Commoner doesn't become like members of other classes; he just stays like himself. If he stays in the class, then when he eventually retires (be it at level 2 or level 20), he can just fit right back into the life he left behind. A guy who can occasionally work miracles or bend the fabric of the universe isn't really a common Joe any more.

magic_unlocked
2008-12-13, 12:22 AM
No, no he can't. What about giving him Evasion? Prolly not Improved Evasion, but the Average Joe can foreseeably be "unusually lucky" at dodging stuff.

Al-Ashrad
2008-12-13, 01:10 AM
No, no he can't. What about giving him Evasion? Prolly not Improved Evasion, but the Average Joe can foreseeably be "unusually lucky" at dodging stuff.

I don't know, since this class already has Mettle. If you add Evasion, you've just effectively given this class "Evasion" for a ton of different spells.

*EDIT*- Also, the Mettle/Evasion combo really ticks me off... it reeks of serious cheese.

magic_unlocked
2008-12-13, 01:19 AM
While that may be true, think of it this way: This class has no spell casting, no sneak attack, no martial-y stuff. It's sort-of an i'm here, what now thing.

Al-Ashrad
2008-12-13, 01:12 PM
While that may be true, think of it this way: This class has no spell casting, no sneak attack, no martial-y stuff. It's sort-of an i'm here, what now thing.

I look at the Adventuring Commoner class like this:
-it has the Cleric's hit die, BAB and saves
-it has the same skill points as the Barbarian, Druid and Monk
-it gets Spot as a class skill
-it's a re-roll depository
-it's a very adaptable class

I also figure that if you were to use the Class Defense Bonus progression from "Unearthed Arcana", the Commoner would have the same progression as a Rogue, based on the same initial armour selections.

The limited armour choices may not be that big a deal, as a lot of folks I've been in games with use Chain Shirts anyway. Having to spend a feat to be able to use a shield would bite, but it's not as if this is the only class that has that dilemma.

Also, with the "Tools of the Trade" feature, if you were to make "Profession: Lumberjack" your key skill, then all of the axe selections open up to you, including the Dwarven Waraxe. Not too shabby for what is essentially a gimme at 2nd level.

It's also possible that a key skill in "Craft: Bowmaking" could open up the Longbows and Shortbows, but I'm not so sure on that one. "Tools of the Trade" doesn't read like this would happen. It might work for "Profession: Hunter" though...

The more I look at this class, the more I enjoy it. Yes, the Adventuring Commoner is a challenge. But it's a do-able challenge. And this class looks to be a Hell of a lot more interesting than your run-of-the-mill fireball slinger...

magic_unlocked
2008-12-13, 02:00 PM
Indeed it does. But, slinging fireballs is rather fun...