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Rebonack
2008-12-08, 07:43 PM
The alignment descriptions can be a little confusing at times. Case in point? The ridiculous commonality of alignment-related arguments. So instead of making massive and detailed definitions, how about some simple phrases that sum up the idea behind the alignments?

Good: Do to others as you would have others do to you.
Neutral: Mind your own business.
Evil: By whatever means necessary.

Law: From order comes peace.
Neutral: Whatever works.
Chaos: Don't tell me what to do.

Two neutrals simply because moral neutrality really isn't all that similar to ethical neutrality.

So post your own one sentence alignment summaries. Critique the others. Let's see if we can't get something of a simple rubric to build on here.

Tacoma
2008-12-08, 07:54 PM
The heroine's virtue is irrelevant (http://http://animanachronism.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/moe-chart2.png).

(This (http://www.technoccult.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/alignment.jpg) is from PHB 1E and is the source of the joke.)

The Glyphstone
2008-12-08, 07:55 PM
The heroine's virtue is irrelevant (http://http://animanachronism.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/moe-chart2.png).

(This (http://www.technoccult.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/alignment.jpg) is from PHB 1E and is the source of the joke.)

For those of us who don't speak...German?...what's the joke?

Tacoma
2008-12-08, 07:56 PM
You see, the old alignment chart showed the axes of good-evil and law-chaos as this complex chart the likes of which nobody ever uses.

The one I found involved anime fannishness and apparently how much you debauch the heroine as axes.

EDIT: Aaaand now their bandwidth is apparently all dried up for the month. I'm leaving the link as a national heritage site.

EDIT2: If you are neutral you are represented by an octagon! Isn't this fun?!

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-08, 08:29 PM
EDIT: Aaaand now their bandwidth is apparently all dried up for the month. I'm leaving the link as a national heritage site.You linked to the poor schmoes from GIANT IN THE PLAYGROUND!!!1! What did you expect to happen? :smallwink:

mikeejimbo
2008-12-08, 08:41 PM
Chaotic Evil: Because some of us just want to watch the world burn.
Chaotic Neutral: Doing what you want, but too lazy to be Evil.
Chaotic Good: I'M HELPING!!!!!!!!!

Neutral Evil: Not bound by law or chaos to further his own ends.
True Neutral: Meh.
Neutral Good: Not bound by law or chaos to further everyone's ends

Lawful Evil: A structured method to power.
Lawful Neutral: Order is all important.
Lawful Good: Order is the best path to good.

Better for Lawful Evil: Order is power.

AmberVael
2008-12-08, 08:54 PM
Fools! What have you done?!
Nameless beings will swallow our pitiful, naive and ignorant forum whole, for you have awakened the wrath of Ali'gnm'ent, the horror of Philosophy! The bringer of debates! The Devourer of rational thought!
Flee for your lives!
:smalltongue:

Optimystik
2008-12-08, 08:58 PM
The heroine's virtue is irrelevant (http://animanachronism.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/moe-chart2.png).

I fixed the link for you. (http://animanachronism.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/moe-chart2.png)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-08, 09:16 PM
Fools! What have you done?!
Nameless beings will swallow our pitiful, naive and ignorant forum whole, for you have awakened the wrath of Ali'gnm'ent, the horror of Philosophy! The bringer of debates! The Devourer of rational thought!
Flee for your lives!
:smalltongue:Infidel! Ali'gnm'ent is a mere herald, a minor beast begging for the scraps of the true Devourer! He is not even worthy of that much, but M'unc enjoys his foolery, and it amuses Him while He plots the End of Days.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-08, 10:07 PM
For your viewing pleasure: The Batman Alignment Chart (http://www.misrpg.cl/files/public/PHOTOS/Nacho/batman-alignment.jpg).

imperialspectre
2008-12-08, 10:28 PM
Lawful Good: "When you can't run, you crawl. And when you can't crawl, when you can't do that…you find someone to carry you."
Neutral Good: "It's about faith. You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you."
Chaotic Good: "A government is a body of people; usually, notably ungoverned."
Lawful Neutral: "I feel it's important that we keep ours…strictly a business arrangement."
Neutral: "Been a long time since Patience shot me, and that was due to a perfectly legitimate conflict of interest. I got no grudge."
Chaotic Neutral: "I aim to misbehave."
Lawful Evil: "Tell me, have you read the works of Shan Yu?"
Neutral Evil: "You just may be the most gullible fool I ever marked. And that makes you special."
Chaotic Evil: "The money was too good!"

Rebonack
2008-12-08, 10:58 PM
And everyone knows that Ali'gnm'ent and M'unc are just two subtle faces of the ineffably horrible beast that is Edi'tio'nwars.

*ahem*

Bat Man's Chaotic Evil got a grin out of me. Kudos.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-08, 11:01 PM
Bat Man's Chaotic Evil got a grin out of me. Kudos.

Honestly, I liked the LG Batman quote the most. Adam West FTW :smallbiggrin:

(oh yeah, and this clearly is not my work, in case there was any confusion)

Rebonack
2008-12-08, 11:14 PM
Honestly, I liked the LG Batman quote the most. Adam West FTW :smallbiggrin:

(oh yeah, and this clearly is not my work, in case there was any confusion)

Of course not. But I'm still willing to thank people for bringing amusing things to my attention. The internet is a big place after all.

arguskos
2008-12-08, 11:18 PM
Lawful Good: "When you can't run, you crawl. And when you can't crawl, when you can't do that…you find someone to carry you."
Neutral Good: "It's about faith. You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you."
Chaotic Good: "A government is a body of people; usually, notably ungoverned."
Lawful Neutral: "I feel it's important that we keep ours…strictly a business arrangement."
Neutral: "Been a long time since Patience shot me, and that was due to a perfectly legitimate conflict of interest. I got no grudge."
Chaotic Neutral: "I aim to misbehave."
Lawful Evil: "Tell me, have you read the works of Shan Yu?"
Neutral Evil: "You just may be the most gullible fool I ever marked. And that makes you special."
Chaotic Evil: "The money was too good!"
I see what you did there. Love the Serenity quotes. Good man, good man. :smallwink:

Callos_DeTerran
2008-12-08, 11:48 PM
Lawful Good: "When you can't run, you crawl. And when you can't crawl, when you can't do that…you find someone to carry you."
Neutral Good: "It's about faith. You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you."
Chaotic Good: "A government is a body of people; usually, notably ungoverned."
Lawful Neutral: "I feel it's important that we keep ours…strictly a business arrangement."
Neutral: "Been a long time since Patience shot me, and that was due to a perfectly legitimate conflict of interest. I got no grudge."
Chaotic Neutral: "I aim to misbehave."
Lawful Evil: "So me and mine have to lay down and die so you can live in your perfect world?"
Neutral Evil: "You just may be the most gullible fool I ever marked. And that makes you special."
Chaotic Evil: "The money was too good!"

I can say, for those who recognize them, that these are the best alignment descriptors I've seen for a while. A better Lawful Good one might have been found but otherwise it's shiny. (Where did the Lawful Good and Neutral ones come from?)

RTGoodman
2008-12-08, 11:51 PM
A better Lawful Good one might have been found but otherwise it's shiny. (Where did the Lawful Good and Neutral ones come from?)

Lawful Good: The episode "The Message" (which is my favorite Firefly episode, along with "Out of Gas," the pilot, and well, all of the series besides "Heart of Gold"). It was one of the mottos of the Browncoats.

Neutral: I'm pretty sure it's from the pilot episode called "Serenity" (not to be confused with the movie of the same name). If not, it might be from "The Train Job."


EDIT: Wait, (True) Neutral, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good? Vael's right about Neutral Good, and I think it's from the episode "Jaynestown."

AmberVael
2008-12-08, 11:51 PM
(Where did the Lawful Good and Neutral ones come from?)

I can't remember the Lawful one, but I'm pretty sure the Neutral Good one came from when River was going through Book's bible and editing it because it was (to quote her) "illogical," and kinda got in an argument with Book over it, and then he gave that line.
Edit: It's from the episode "Jaynestown."

Kris Strife
2008-12-08, 11:59 PM
For your viewing pleasure: The Batman Alignment Chart (http://www.misrpg.cl/files/public/PHOTOS/Nacho/batman-alignment.jpg).

Can someone provide links to each one individually?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-09, 12:03 AM
Can someone provide links to each one individually?

Oh, that chart is one piece. The point is to show how Batman can, depending on the character interpretation, be of any alignment.

There are a bunch of nice alignment-thingees around the net. Heck, the first google search for "alignment motivators" turned up our very own forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18405.html).

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-09, 12:05 AM
Working on designing a homebrew pantheon of deities, I found it so hard to keep track of what each alignment was supposed to be that I wound up making a little cheat sheet -- a simplification of the SRD's descriptions with all the overcomplicating detail boiled away. Here's what I came up with:

Good: willing to help others, unwilling to harm innocents
Neutral: no commitment to helping via personal sacrifice, compunctions against harming innocents
Evil: unwilling to help others, willing to harm innocents

(This clarifies the main problem with the Good/Evil axis: How do you classify someone willing to harm innocents and willing to make personal sacrifices to help others? That doesn't seem like a small issue, since with sufficiently broad definitions of "innocent", "harm", "sacrifice", and "help", that probably covers pretty much everyone alive.)

Law: respects authority and tradition, honest
Neutral: normal respect for / unbiased toward authority, usually but not always honest
Chaos: resents being controlled, favors new ideas, adaptable

(The problem with the Law/Chaos is that honesty and obedience are as perpendicular to each other as they are to Good and Evil. What alignment is an anarchist who never lies and always keeps his word?)

Da'Shain
2008-12-09, 12:06 AM
That Lawful Evil descriptor taken from Serenity is pretty awesome, although I had a moment where I was like "Mal is Lawful Evil for saying that? What?!"

Callos_DeTerran
2008-12-09, 12:28 AM
That Lawful Evil descriptor taken from Serenity is pretty awesome, although I had a moment where I was like "Mal is Lawful Evil for saying that? What?!"

For a second I thought you were talking about imperialspectre's original Lawful Evil quote and had a moment when my brain stopped to wonder, "Mal never read Shan Yu", then realized you might have been talking about my replacement quote:smalltongue:.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-09, 12:29 AM
This clarifies the main problem with the Good/Evil axis: How do you classify someone willing to harm innocents and willing to make personal sacrifices to help others? That doesn't seem like a small issue, since with sufficiently broad definitions of "innocent", "harm", "sacrifice", and "help", that probably covers pretty much everyone alive.

Neutral. 3E Neutral.

"Good" is someone who cares about the well-being of others, even when there is no direct personal benefit

"Evil" is someone who disregards the well-being of others, unless there is personal benefit.

"Neutral" is someone who cares about the well-being of others, but is willing to ignore it when it becomes inconvenient.

An "Evil" person always acts under their own motives, with their own benefit in mind. If they want to make personal sacrifices, then they will do it for some later benefit, even if that benefit is no more than the smug sense of superiority that comes from adhering to a rigorous code (LE).

A "Good" person may sacrifice others, even innocents, if it is the only way to protect a greater number of others. The classic "greater good" mentality.

The trick is to not try and tie the Good v. Evil axis too closely to particular stimulus-response pairings. Good and Evil people may let innocents die, or sacrifice themselves for others, but they will do so for different reasons.


Law: respects authority and tradition, honest
Neutral: normal respect for / unbiased toward authority, usually but not always honest
Chaos: resents being controlled, favors new ideas, adaptable

(The problem with the Law/Chaos is that honesty and obedience are as perpendicular to each other as they are to Good and Evil. What alignment is an anarchist who never lies and always keeps his word?)

"Honesty" is not an attribute of Law, per se. Said Anarchist would likely be CG; he believes that keeping his word, once given, is the Right Thing To Do, and so he does it. This doesn't mean he has to do what John Law says he should do; he has no obligations but the ones he creates.

A "Lawful" person respects the dictates of society and organizations larger than himself over his personal whims.

A "Chaotic" person lets his whims alone drive his actions; societal expectations can and are disregarded at will.

A "Neutral" person will generally "go with the flow" in terms of rules and regulations, but is not adverse to breaking them when it suits his purposes.

***
Anyhow, this is how I conceptualize the D&D Alignment system. For me, it's quite robust, and I used it on everything from individuals to kingdoms to gods. For the Divine, read "Lawful" as "believing order and structure are very important" and "Chaotic" as "rejecting order and structure for individual autonomy."

It's very helpful when trying to figure out how a given god's religious order would be organized, among other things :smallsmile:

Primal Fury
2008-12-09, 12:32 AM
Hm. Seeing as how I have not linked anything to tropes yet (and also because I feel obligated to for some reason.) This. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/M5HQYMDJN2PKIND2EPTSZTKQLVEQ4EWI.jpg)

But honestly? This has been my experience with alignment, as defined by my first experiences with a DM and other players:

Lawful Good: "Lawful good is the ONLY good!"
Neutral Good: "Well I th-AGHGHGGHHHHHH!!!" <- Murdered by Lawful good
Chaotic Good: "Freedom and... Uh-oh." <- Runs from Lawful Good

Lawful Neutral: "I don't care if it's just a puppy! It broke the law, now it has to die!"
Neutral: "I'm helping my friends! Wait... the other side looks weak... I'd better help them now!" *Rinse and Repeat* <- DM's definition
Chaotic Neutral: "RAAAWR! Bloodshed!!!" <- Me at one point

Lawful Evil: *Insert generic supervillian quote here*
Neutral Evil: "I'm evil... So... Um..." *Kills a baby*
Chaotic Evil: "Maybe if I pretend to be like Lawful Good, he won't kill me"

Those were dark times, they were. :smallfrown:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-09, 12:39 AM
Given the issues with the various alignments, I'm sort of wondering if they're not just picking sides. Sort of like citizenship. Each side has ideals it espouses, but they are so far removed from the real-world concepts of right and wrong that they don't really have overriding moral implications.

skywalker
2008-12-09, 12:40 AM
Law: respects authority and tradition, honest
Neutral: normal respect for / unbiased toward authority, usually but not always honest
Chaos: resents being controlled, favors new ideas, adaptable

I take issue with this one. I think a neutral good person is usually but not always honest, a true neutral person tends toward convenience, and a neutral evil person does the same, only with even less scruples.

EDIT:
Hm. Seeing as how I have not linked anything to tropes yet (and also because I feel obligated to for some reason.) This. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/M5HQYMDJN2PKIND2EPTSZTKQLVEQ4EWI.jpg)

Nice link there. I hadn't really payed attention to the TV tropes logo before :smallwink:

Enlong
2008-12-09, 03:15 AM
Lawful Good: " Enough of that! A proper woman should have modesty, and...and decency! And...*rant*...*rant*...*rant*..."
Neutral Good: "You would have me go there and deliver the news of your passing to your family? What would I say when I handed them your sword? How could I even look at them? You're a human being before you're a soldier. Don't be so eager to throw away your life."
Chaotic Good: "And... you chose your freedom"

Lawful Neutral: "I'd never be able to rest in peace if I died without collecting my pay..."
True Neutral: " I see... So, you seek to save the world? Then I guess that means I shall save the world as well. Lead on! I will copy your every move."
Chaotic Neutral: "Ughaaa!"

Lawful Evil: "The time has come for us to claim our rightful dominion over the world! Nothing shall stand in our way!"
Neutral Evil: " Why do people insist on creating things that will inevitably be destroyed? Why do people cling to life, knowing that they must someday die? ...Knowing that none of it will have meant anything once they do?"
Chaotic Evil: "But what fun is destruction if no 'precious' lives are lost?"

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-09, 03:32 AM
I take issue with this one. I think a neutral good person is usually but not always honest, a true neutral person tends toward convenience, and a neutral evil person does the same, only with even less scruples.
Well, I wasn't endorsing that as how Neutrality should work. That cheat sheet I gave was just a summary / the important parts of the actual alignment section of the rules. (In this case, "Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos ... is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.")

I'd prefer to have Law and Chaos as obedience/conformity and independence/individualism, personally, and leave honesty out of it. (Having an axis for how often characters lie strikes me as like having an axis for how violent they are.) In which case, Neutrality could easily tend more towards dishonesty than Law or Chaos -- not genuinely playing by the rules, but also not openly rebelling. Pretending to play by the rules because it's convenient to have people think that you are. Think Shojo, here. "I'm insincere, and people appreciate that. At least, more than they would hearing what I really think."

Edit: And let's face it, if Neutral is the alignment of regular, normal, ordinary, everyday people, then lying on a regular basis had better be consistent with Neutral alignment. Normal people lie every day, I'm pretty sure. It's not an uncommon behavior.

Tengu_temp
2008-12-09, 03:55 AM
I'd prefer to have Law and Chaos as obedience/conformity and independence/individualism, personally, and leave honesty out of it.

No offense, but that's one of the worst definitions I've ever seen. If you define alignment like that, most higher-powered characters will be chaotic, and for some absurd various gods of valour, honor and heroism also promote conformity.

BobVosh
2008-12-09, 03:59 AM
No offense, but that's one of the worst definitions I've ever seen. If you define alignment like that, most higher-powered characters will be chaotic, and for some absurd various gods of valour, honor and heroism also promote conformity.

Not to mention your charisma will determine your L/C alignment setting. High charisma is a strong personality, and vice versa. So a High Charisma (14+) is C, 8-10 is a N, and <8 is Lawful.

Wulfram
2008-12-09, 08:14 AM
Good people are Good, Evil people are Evil, while the Law/Chaos axis is incoherent rubbish. Normal people are Neutral.

Trying to define Good and Evil precisely is futile, but in most cases you'll no it when you see it.

kamikasei
2008-12-09, 08:20 AM
Fools! What have you done?!
Nameless beings will swallow our pitiful, naive and ignorant forum whole, for you have awakened the wrath of Ali'gnm'ent, the horror of Philosophy! The bringer of debates! The Devourer of rational thought!

It sounds Cthuluesque. I wonder what alignment it is?

Hannibal
2008-12-09, 08:30 AM
I find that arguing morality is a waste of time. Define your world how you see fit, and worry about the definitions of those around you only if they have some sort of control or leverage over you.

potatocubed
2008-12-09, 08:37 AM
Alignment. Aiee.

sun_tzu
2008-12-09, 08:40 AM
I did this for Penny&Aggie (http://www.pennyandaggie.com/)...

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1716/paalignmentspp9.jpg

hamishspence
2008-12-09, 08:50 AM
thats a pretty fair summary.

Oslecamo
2008-12-09, 09:06 AM
LG: I'll work to find the most profitable and balanced solution for everybody.
NG:I help you because you need help.
CG:I'll find a way to help you, no matter what other people may think about it.

LN:By the book, no matter how hard.
TN:I'm just trying to live here.
CN:Taking everything lightly.

LE:Dance at the sound of my music. Or suffer.
NE: I could have done it whitout hurting you. But this way was easier. For me at least.
CE: You didn't do anything wrong to me. But you were there. That's all the reason I need to make you suffer.

potatocubed
2008-12-09, 10:27 AM
Take 2:

LG: I'm a hero, but I have a stick up my ass.
LN: I have a stick up my ass for no good reason.
LE: The stick up my ass is for beating peasants with.

NG: I'm a good guy.
N: I'm a guy.
NE: I'm an asshat.

CG: Down with tyranny!
CN: Down with government!
CE: Down with everything!

Ethdred
2008-12-09, 10:50 AM
LE: The stick up my ass is for beating peasants with.


Best one so far, I think!

Rebonack
2008-12-09, 10:56 AM
Take 2:

LG: I'm a hero, but I have a stick up my ass.
LN: I have a stick up my ass for no good reason.
LE: The stick up my ass is for beating peasants with.

NG: I'm a good guy.
N: I'm a guy.
NE: I'm an asshat.

CG: Down with tyranny!
CN: Down with government!
CE: Down with everything!

Careful not to construe Lawful with Square. They're two completely different axis, you know.

LG: The most good for society.
NG: Doing good wherever I can.
CG: Doing good my way.

LN: Just do your duty.
TN: Just do your thing.
CN: Just do your thing, society be hung.

LE: Power through society.
NE: Do your thing regardless of who's in the way.
CE: The flames are brightest when they burn something meaningful.

As far as Chaos/Law being incoherent I think there's a pretty good reason for it. Nearly everyone agrees that kindness is good and that cruelty is evil. And those form the basis for the moral axis. The ethical axis is less of simple contrast but rather a rather large collection of contrasted concepts.

Tradition vs Innovation
Corporate vs Individual
Calculating vs Impulsive
Honor vs Practicality

No doubt plenty of others that don't come to mind right away.

A lawful character won't always have all the lawful characteristics. Nor will a chaotic character always have all the chaotic characteristics. It leads to an axis that isn't as clear cut (you're kind or you're cruel).

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 11:13 AM
Even on that axis- there are exceptions- cruelty- to captured orcs to get info- Bruenor Battlehammer, LG. Kindness- to people he loves- Elric of Melnibone.

Champions of Ruin suggested that consistantly behaving in an evil fashion is a sympton of being an evil charcter- doesn't mean you can't restrict you evil only to those you see as enemies, nor does it mean you can't be kind to your friends. Savage Species said something very similar.

The Glyphstone
2008-12-10, 11:19 AM
Does anyone really want to get Square and Funky involved in this?

AmberVael
2008-12-10, 11:23 AM
Does anyone really want to get Square and Funky involved in this?

Yes!
:smallbiggrin:
I love that axis. It's completely hilarious and awesome.

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 11:27 AM
Funky- and LN- would that be someone who is both very honest and enjoys being a little unorthodox- partying, etc?

Square and CN- would that be someone who refuses to hang out with anyone who isn't CN, and sees Being CN as a strict rule to adhere to?

these would be the most extreme divergences from the norm.

Grey Paladin
2008-12-10, 11:36 AM
Good: Selfishness is the source of all evil- Altruism is the path to utopia.
Neutral: Balance between the needs of one and many must be found
Evil: I am the center the universe- all else is secondary.

Lawful: Emotions cloud judgement and creat chaos- Pure logic must reign
Neutral: Logic and Emotion are symbiotic- both are required to conserve sanity.
Chaotic: Let feelings and impulse guide you, logic only serves to cloud them and form doubt in your heart

Enlong
2008-12-10, 11:37 AM
Yes!
:smallbiggrin:
I love that axis. It's completely hilarious and awesome.

But can anyone really come up with twenty-seven pithy statements?

Telonius
2008-12-10, 11:44 AM
EDIT: Curse you funky ninjas!

Lawful Good: Squeaky-clean boy scout.
Neutral Good: Generally a good person.
Chaotic Good: Everybody have fun at the party!

Lawful Neutral: Just follow the rules.
True Neutral: Zen Master, Feels Bad for the Underdog, or Undecided.
Chaotic Neutral: I follow my inner muse. Lalalalalala, can't hear you....

Lawful Evil: I write EULAs for a living (http://www.xkcd.com/501/).
Neutral Evil: I'm generally a jerk.
Chaotic Evil: BLAARRRRGGHHHHH!!

potatocubed
2008-12-10, 11:51 AM
But can anyone really come up with twenty-seven pithy statements?

Maybe later. Right now, I want someone to homebrew me a funky paladin-variant. Something like:

Soul Train (Su): At 4th level a funkydin can summon a funky soul train to act as a mighty steed. This has the same statistics as a normal soul train, modified by your funkydin level. At the DM's option, you may replace your soul train with a similar mount such as a love bug or a groove armada.

:smalltongue:

AKA_Bait
2008-12-10, 12:20 PM
Ok, here's my pithy ones:

CG: The law doesn't matter. Helping people matters.
LG: There is a right way to behave, always.
NG: I'll help if I can.
LN: This is the way it's done.
N: You do your thing. I'll do mine.
CN: I'll do what I want, so long as I'm not really hurting anyone.
NE: I don't stick my neck out for anyone.
LE: I was following orders. The content of the orders doesn't matter.
CE: I'll do what I want. The rules, and all of you, be damned if you are in my way.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-10, 01:11 PM
I did this for Penny&Aggie (http://www.pennyandaggie.com/)...

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1716/paalignmentspp9.jpg

That's a good one!

I particularly liked CE :smallbiggrin:

endoperez
2008-12-10, 01:35 PM
LG :smallsigh:: I'm never going to tell a lie.
NG :smallfrown:: I'm never going to make you cry.
CG :smallwink: : I won't let you down.

LN :smallannoyed:: I'm never going to give up.
TN :smallyuk:: Don't you tell me how I'm feeling!
CN :smallcool:: We know the game - and we're going to play it!

LE :smallmad:: I know the rules and so will you.
NE :smallfurious:: I'm going to make you... understand.
CE :xykon:: "You wouldn't get this from any other guy." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYmeDvwF07c&feature=related)

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 01:42 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I've seen plenty of LE characters in fiction who might be called altruists of a sort- that is, "Everything I did, I did for my people". Redcloak fits this trope quite well.

Altruism is associated with Good, but isn't necessarily "Good by definition"

Grey Paladin
2008-12-10, 01:44 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I've seen plenty of LE characters in fiction who might be called altruists of a sort- that is, "Everything I did, I did for my people". Redcloak fits this trope quite well.

Altruism is associated with Good, but isn't necessarily "Good by definition"

One can sacrifice himself for the sake of others out of selfishness.

Telonius
2008-12-10, 01:49 PM
LG :smallsigh:: I'm never going to tell a lie.
NG :smallfrown:: I'm never going to make you cry.
CG :smallwink: : I won't let you down.

LN :smallannoyed:: I'm never going to give up.
TN :smallyuk:: Don't you tell me how I'm feeling!
CN :smallcool:: We know the game - and we're going to play it!

LE :smallmad:: I know the rules and so will you.
NE :smallfurious:: I'm going to make you... understand.
CE :xykon:: "You wouldn't get this from any other guy." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYmeDvwF07c&feature=related)

Good lord. It all makes sense now. D&D has been Rickrolling us with alignment restrictions all along! The song was written in 1987, and 2nd ed came out in 1989 ... hey, some of the old-timers, was alignment that ridiculous in 1st ed?

AKA_Bait
2008-12-10, 01:54 PM
One can sacrifice himself for the sake of others out of selfishness.

I think I'm going to need that explained some more.

Blackfang108
2008-12-10, 01:59 PM
I think I'm going to need that explained some more.

It's the difference between being altruistic for your people vs being altruistic for people.

Grey Paladin
2008-12-10, 02:06 PM
It's the difference between being altruistic for your people vs being altruistic for people.

5/5

Being nice because you do not want to cause anguish to your friends is good
Being nice so your friends do not betray you is evil.

Many of the great dictators in our History were undoubtedly evil, yet still dedicated their entire lives to better their people (if only for selfish reasons).

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 02:32 PM
Normally Good deeds done for very selfish reasons are Neutral, not evil. Again, the converse of "Altruism isn't Always Good" is "Selfishess isn't Always Evil"

Grey Paladin
2008-12-10, 02:42 PM
If we define Altruism as Good and Selfishness as evil, it kind of does, but your first point is true, I stand corrected.

What was mentioned above is not Altruism despite the self-sacrificing aspect due to being selfish in source.

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 02:45 PM
D&D does say they are associated, but the examples given show there are exceptions.

BoED- altruistic evil act is still evil- no matter how many you save by doing so.

Also, phrase used was "Benevolent act done for selfish reasons is Neutral at best"

While not great, its preferable to saying "if it seems benevolent but reason was selfish, its Evil, not Good"

Agrippa
2008-12-10, 02:47 PM
No offense, but that's one of the worst definitions I've ever seen. If you define alignment like that, most higher-powered characters will be chaotic, and for some absurd various gods of valour, honor and heroism also promote conformity.

Well I think that Law means collectivism while Chaos means indiviualism. That said I also disagree with the statement that Lawfulness automatically equates obedience. Niether Lawfuls, especially not paladins, nor Chaotics are required to be blindly obedient. In fact you can have Lawfully aligned revoloutionaries and Chaotically aligned counter revolutionaries. Discworld's Reginald Shoe would be just that Lawful Good revolutionary.


Lawfuls think that sacrificing personal goals to form a group ultimately allows the individual to achieve more than they could alone, some will even place the group's needs so far above their own that they will die to further them. Lawful characters might be criminals devoted to the Godfather, or uncorruptable magistrates.

Chaotics believe that the very act of compromising to form a group makes achieving your goals impossible, or at least prevents them being fully achieved. A chaotic may either care nothing about what others think and act accordingly, or they may place such high value on personal honour that they will do anything to avoid breaking their word once given.

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 02:54 PM
I might say one of the many aspects of Law is collectivism, and of Chaos, individualism, but these are only aspects, there is more to the alignment than just one trait.

Agrippa
2008-12-10, 02:56 PM
If we define Altruism as Good and Selfishness as evil, it kind of does, but your first point is true, I stand corrected.

What was mentioned above is not Altruism despite the self-sacrificing aspect due to being selfish in source.

Agrippa's coralary to Tengu_temp's first law of evil.
Evil is not selfishness, it's abuse and being a ****. Whether you or someone else profits from it doesn't matter. Evil can be done for selfless reasons, selfish reasons or simply for the sake of cruelty towards others. Evil is cruelty or viewing others as things not greed, ambition or self advancement. And it's certainly not cool.

Grey Paladin
2008-12-10, 03:01 PM
Hamishspence: True, but when trying to capture the essence of Morality in a a one-liner you rarely have the place to mention all of them.

Agrippa: What I dislike about this definition is that it makes being Good too easy- the kind gunslinger and the utterly altruistic pacifist who creates an utopia through the power of love will share an alignment under it.

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 03:02 PM
not all evil is Cruel though- some is simply treating others as things to be sacrificed. And not necessarily for yourself either.

In my view, painlessly murdering a healthy man, and using his organs to save several dying people, would be Evil- even if there was no Cruelty in the act.

Blackfang108
2008-12-10, 03:15 PM
not all evil is Cruel though- some is simply treating others as things to be sacrificed. And not necessarily for yourself either.

In my view, painlessly murdering a healthy man, and using his organs to save several dying people, would be Evil- even if there was no Cruelty in the act.

Murder is cruel by default, ham.

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 03:22 PM
cruelty is defined as taking pleasure in the causing of unnecessary pain. No pain here. Still murder.

Blackfang108
2008-12-10, 03:30 PM
cruelty is defined as taking pleasure in the causing of unnecessary pain. No pain here. Still murder.


cruel
adjective, -er, -est.
1. willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to others.
2. enjoying the pain or distress of others: the cruel spectators of the gladiatorial contests.
3. causing or marked by great pain or distress: a cruel remark; a cruel affliction.
4. rigid; stern; strict; unrelentingly severe.

Being Murdered is pretty distressing, I'd say.



murder
–noun 1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
2. Slang. something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
3. a group or flock of crows.
–verb (used with object) 4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.
–verb (used without object) 7. to commit murder.
—Idioms8. get away with murder, Informal. to engage in a deplorable activity without incurring harm or punishment: The new baby-sitter lets the kids get away with murder.
9. murder will out, a secret will eventually be exposed.
10. yell or scream bloody murder, a. to scream loudly in pain, fear, etc.
b. to protest loudly and angrily: If I don't get a good raise I'm going to yell bloody murder.

definitions courtesy of Dictionary.com

Tengu_temp
2008-12-10, 03:32 PM
Agrippa: What I dislike about this definition is that it makes being Good too easy- the kind gunslinger and the utterly altruistic pacifist who creates an utopia through the power of love will share an alignment under it.

And how exactly is that bad? Alignment != personality. Not to mention that if you have strict standards for good, then a lot of people of very different moralities share the neutral alignment.

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 03:36 PM
in law- even painless killings are murders, if they fit definition- unlawful, premediated (for 1st degree), etc.

Grey Paladin
2008-12-10, 03:44 PM
I always figured out it was one of the themes of D&D- Good, unlike Evil, isn't easy.

The swarm of evil cloaks the world in darkness, but the few paragons of good stand as an eternal beacon, at times the light flickers but no matter what, the flames will continue to burn.

hamishspence
2008-12-10, 03:49 PM
thats pretty fair- Good people can do evil acts and not turn evil, but not really bad ones, and not often or consistantly. and "I'm saving lots of lives" isn't good enough excuse, even in 2nd ed-

a sufficiently evil act (burning down diseased village with evryone inside) was in 2nd ed PHB, not just Fall-worthy, but Change to Evil Alignment-worthy, even with the "I'm saving lots more lives" excuse

Conversely, its very easy to have an Evil person behave in a mostly good fashion- because generally they don't get penalized for doing so, and its actually more believeable, the Villain who compartmentalizes- kind to friends and family, utterly cruel to those he sees as enemies.

Rebonack
2008-12-10, 03:57 PM
Funky: Life is short, play hard!
Neutral: Life is living.
Square: Life is serious business.


Hmmm...

Good/Evil is representative of a person's beliefs about relating to other people and their relative degree of importance compared to others. Morality.

Law/Chaos is representative of how a person relates to society (with a subtext personal conduct and emphasis on logic or emotion). Ethics.

Funky/Square is representative of a person's general outlook on life and how they relate to the experiance. What would that be called? Outlook? Funkitude?

Edit:

And as an aside.

Being kind to people you love really doesn't mean you're good. Pretty much everyone is kind to those who are kind to them. Reciprocity is Neutral.

Telonius
2008-12-10, 04:25 PM
Lawful Good Square - the Designated Driver who obnoxiously whines about not getting to have any fun.
Lawful Good Neutral - the Designated Driver who hits on the other cute DD.
Lawful Good Funky - the Designated Driver who gets his friends just plastered enough to enjoy themselves.

sun_tzu
2008-12-10, 05:32 PM
That's a good one!

I particularly liked CE :smallbiggrin:

Thanks. As I discovered, making those is fun (http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1161/alignmentsmq3.jpg)!

Draco Dracul
2008-12-10, 05:47 PM
not all evil is Cruel though- some is simply treating others as things to be sacrificed. And not necessarily for yourself either.

In my view, painlessly murdering a healthy man, and using his organs to save several dying people, would be Evil- even if there was no Cruelty in the act.

Tell me how evil said healthy man is, then we will talk.

TheCheshireHat
2008-12-10, 07:07 PM
LG :smallsigh:: I'm never going to tell a lie.
NG :smallfrown:: I'm never going to make you cry.
CG :smallwink: : I won't let you down.

LN :smallannoyed:: I'm never going to give up.
TN :smallyuk:: Don't you tell me how I'm feeling!
CN :smallcool:: We know the game - and we're going to play it!

LE :smallmad:: I know the rules and so will you.
NE :smallfurious:: I'm going to make you... understand.
CE :xykon:: "You wouldn't get this from any other guy." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYmeDvwF07c&feature=related)

Win. Just... win.

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-10, 07:25 PM
LG :smallsigh:: I'm never going to tell a lie.
NG :smallfrown:: I'm never going to make you cry.
CG :smallwink: : I won't let you down.

LN :smallannoyed:: I'm never going to give up.
TN :smallyuk:: Don't you tell me how I'm feeling!
CN :smallcool:: We know the game - and we're going to play it!

LE :smallmad:: I know the rules and so will you.
NE :smallfurious:: I'm going to make you... understand.
CE :xykon:: "You wouldn't get this from any other guy." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYmeDvwF07c&feature=related)

Okay, I think we can declare this thread won now.

/thread

Samurai Jill
2008-12-10, 07:35 PM
Lawful Good: "When you can't run, you crawl. And when you can't crawl, when you can't do that…you find someone to carry you."
Neutral Good: "It's about faith. You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you."
Chaotic Good: "A government is a body of people; usually, notably ungoverned."
Lawful Neutral: "I feel it's important that we keep ours…strictly a business arrangement."
Neutral: "Been a long time since Patience shot me, and that was due to a perfectly legitimate conflict of interest. I got no grudge."
Chaotic Neutral: "I aim to misbehave."
Lawful Evil: "Tell me, have you read the works of Shan Yu?"
Neutral Evil: "You just may be the most gullible fool I ever marked. And that makes you special."
Chaotic Evil: "The money was too good!"

I like that, actually.

Tacoma
2008-12-10, 07:38 PM
Does anyone have the old Dragon Magazine alignment chart that included such gems as "lawful stupid"? Looked kind of like a flow chart as I recall. It was back in like Issue 70 or something.

Draz74
2008-12-10, 07:47 PM
I keep meaning to come up with a set of these, but don't have time. Shame ... it would be fun writing my own, or taking them all from OotS, or taking them all from Pirates of the Carribean:

CN: "So that's it, then? That's the secret, grand adventure of the infamous Jack Sparrow. You spent three days lying on a beach drinking rum."
"Welcome to the Caribbean, love."

But one thing to keep in mind, anyway: Within each alignment, there are those who are deliberate about it, and those who aren't.

LG Deliberate: Typical "stick up the butt" stereotype
LG Calm: More like a number of my RL friends. Uncomfortable with breaking rules, very compassionate, but not obsessed with analyzing behavior (their own or others) constantly.

N Deliberate: The infamous, and fairly unrealistic, "preserve the balance" attitude from the 2e Druid
N Calm: Lots and lots of people who just go about without any particular convictions, doing good deeds as long as it doesn't inconvenience them too much, loving their closest friends and being almost apathetic towards strangers.

CE Calm: "Meh, you gotta do what you gotta do. If people have to get hurt along the way, maybe I'll shed a tear for 'em when I get around to it."
CE Deliberate: "You gotta do what you gotta do. Hopefully hurting people along the way, cuz then I can snicker myself to sleep at night over their anguish." :xykon:

The "calm" versions are always more realistic reflections of what we see in the real world, and yet somehow they don't tend to get as many "pithy statements" oriented towards them. At least for some alignments.

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-10, 08:24 PM
I believe you're referring to the Funky/Square axis? Look up a bit in this thread, and there are some pretty good summaries. Square on that axis is your Deliberate, Neutral is your Calm, and Funky is... a little more enthusiastic about it. Take Xykon, for example. Great example of a Chaotic Evil Funky character, there.

TheEmerged
2008-12-10, 09:04 PM
LG :smallsigh:: I'm never going to tell a lie.
NG :smallfrown:: I'm never going to make you cry.
CG :smallwink: : I won't let you down.

LN :smallannoyed:: I'm never going to give up.
TN :smallyuk:: Don't you tell me how I'm feeling!
CN :smallcool:: We know the game - and we're going to play it!

LE :smallmad:: I know the rules and so will you.
NE :smallfurious:: I'm going to make you... understand.
CE :xykon:: "You wouldn't get this from any other guy." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYmeDvwF07c&feature=related)

Somebody report this thread for closing, 'cause it's over :smallcool:

--------------------------

Personal Version

LG: What I thought I was at age 15.
LN: What I actually was at age 15.
LE: What I nearly became at age 18.

NG: What I consider myself today.
TN: What I consider most people to be.
NE: What I try not to assume anyone is until I see proof.

CG: My best friend at age 15 ("I find that the rules usually get in the way of doing the right thing.")
CN: The girl I thought I was in love with at 15.
CE: Someone I hope no one else has to ever meet.

Saint Nil
2008-12-10, 09:20 PM
I'm sorry, but I must sig that quote. Thank you.

ShadowFighter15
2008-12-10, 10:41 PM
I couldn't think of anything pithy myself (and my opinions on the morality system can wait for another day), so I had a wander around photobucket to see what I could find and came up with these (alignments without a picture were because I couldn't find anything that I thought was accurate (like L from Death Note being considered Lawful Good, guy's LN at best)).

Neutral Good (http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/IvyElfMaid/4chan-type/1208802293555.jpg)
Chaotic (http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr151/thehobogod/Houseposter.jpg) Good (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/UnknownPhantom/chaoticgood.jpg) (Two (http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c208/Eclipse-X/Side%20Stuff/Demotivators/1178024829012.jpg) more (http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f167/Hitokiri1849/Personal%20favorite%20motivational%20posters/ChaoticGood0.jpg))
Chaotic (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z46/arakdemonblade/chaoticneutral2.jpg) Neutral (http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/Llunara/2efd557cb202d0fulliw1.jpg)
Lawful Evil (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg207/spawn_of_urza/Funny/Motivationals/LightLawfulEvil.jpg)
Neutral Evil (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z58/TokioKoroomine/NeutralEvil.jpg)

Draco Dracul
2008-12-10, 11:18 PM
I couldn't think of anything pithy myself (and my opinions on the morality system can wait for another day), so I had a wander around photobucket to see what I could find and came up with these (alignments without a picture were because I couldn't find anything that I thought was accurate (like L from Death Note being considered Lawful Good, guy's LN at best)).

Neutral Good (http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/IvyElfMaid/4chan-type/1208802293555.jpg)
Chaotic (http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr151/thehobogod/Houseposter.jpg) Good (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/UnknownPhantom/chaoticgood.jpg) (Two (http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c208/Eclipse-X/Side%20Stuff/Demotivators/1178024829012.jpg) more (http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f167/Hitokiri1849/Personal%20favorite%20motivational%20posters/ChaoticGood0.jpg))
Chaotic (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z46/arakdemonblade/chaoticneutral2.jpg) Neutral (http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/Llunara/2efd557cb202d0fulliw1.jpg)
Lawful Evil (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg207/spawn_of_urza/Funny/Motivationals/LightLawfulEvil.jpg)
Neutral Evil (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z58/TokioKoroomine/NeutralEvil.jpg)

House is chaotic neutral at best, if you are looking for LG in Death Note your best bet would be Light's father. I agree that L is definitely LN defined.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-10, 11:25 PM
House is chaotic neutral at bestEh, i remember quite a few instances where he said that it's 'the family's job to care, it's his job to save their life'. He's an ass, but he's one that does give everything he can to help people. Look at how many ethics laws he ignores for the sake of his patients.

Draco Dracul
2008-12-10, 11:29 PM
Eh, i remember quite a few instances where he said that it's 'the family's job to care, it's his job to save their life'. He's an ass, but he's one that does give everything he can to help people. Look at how many ethics laws he ignores for the sake of his patients.

The problem is that he often ignores ethics laws for his own enjorment (in fact he takes cases mainly because they intrest him). Not to mention the fact that the huge amount of resources he wastes hunting zebras at every hoofbeat.

Innis Cabal
2008-12-10, 11:33 PM
Neutral Evil (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z58/TokioKoroomine/NeutralEvil.jpg)

He's Lawful Evil. Pure and simple. He's not looking out for number one. He's taking over through planning and cunning.

(Also....being a lame villian in an otherwise stellar cast.)

Primal Fury
2008-12-10, 11:58 PM
That's always been the issue, hasn't it? House saves lives on daily basis, and even doles out nuggets of wisdom from time to time; but then again he is selfish, apathetic, and generally a jerk to everyone he associates himself with. I've always thought it was best to leave House out of any alignment debates, as it seems he fluctuates between Chaotic Good, and Chaotic Neutral.



Good (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/UnknownPhantom/chaoticgood.jpg)

And who is this guy?

ShadowFighter15
2008-12-11, 12:23 AM
And who is this guy?

I honestly have no idea, I just thought the caption fit the alignment.

Enlong
2008-12-11, 01:36 AM
He's Lawful Evil. Pure and simple. He's not looking out for number one. He's taking over through planning and cunning.

(Also....being a lame villian in an otherwise stellar cast.)

... dude what?
Define lame.

Trizap
2008-12-11, 01:40 AM
Lawful Good: "For all that is good and just!"
Neutral Good: "Why can't we all just get along?"
Chaotic Good: "Don't let the rules stop you from doing whats right"
Lawful Neutral: "I'll get back to you on that once you fill out these forms and the confirmation forms of the confirmation forms"
True Neutral: "Why can't you just leave me alone?"
Chaotic Neutral: "rules, blah blah blah, stuff I don't care about, stop talking or I'll blow the place up"
Lawful Evil: "For the Greater Good!"
Neutral Evil: "Why can't you all just surrender to me?"
Chaotic Evil: "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHH!!!!!!!"

DrakebloodIV
2008-12-11, 02:21 AM
27 Pithy statements of Almighty awesomeness!!!!!obligatory1!!!

Lawful Good Square- Smite, rinse, repeat
Lawful Good Neutural- Meh, I could wear that funky hat while I crusade, but I'm not really in the mood
Lawful Good Funky- I'm not chaotic, the voices are very predictable...

Lawful Neutral Square- Well kids, drugs are bad, mmkay?
Lawful Neutral Neutral- I just like being bossy
Lawful Neutral Funky- Well the law dosen't say I can't walk everywhere on my hands...

Lawful Evil Square- I set out to kill 10,000 innocents the exact same way. But on my 9,999th I did it wrong. I guess I have to start over.
Lawful Evil Neutral- Because being a **** is boring without rules
Lawful Evil Funky- First, I'm gonna set your hair on fire. Then, I'm going to release you into a tub filled with tapioca pudding and angry marmosats...

Neutral Good Square- I always give a lollipop to that kid
Neutral Good Neutral- Everyone needs a hug now and again
Neutral Good Funky- That guys crazy but you know he means well

Neutral Neutral Square- <Insert Charlie Brown Adult Noise>
Neutral Neutral Neutral- Even with a third allignment you couldnt choose?!
Neutral Neutral Funky- He's not chaiotic, he's just a wierdo

Neutral Evil Square- I don't just kick cats, I kick every cat
Neutral Evil Neutral- I don't care, I just want to see you cry
Neutral Evil Funky- That guy invented the escalator just so he could push you down it

Chaotic Good Square- Anarchy, but blander!
Chaotic Good Neutral- Random acts of kindness
Chaotic Good Funky- I founded the Every Child Needs A Shoebox foundation!

Chaotic Neutral Square- Roll 1d100 and check your random actions chart
Chaotic Neutral Neutral- Just sit in that corner and don't even pretend you aren't NNN
Chaotic Neutral Funky- Aww crap, he forgot to take his pills again

Chaotic Evil Square- Man, I really need to think up something more original than burning orphanages
Chaotic Evil Neutral- I still get the meniacal laugh, right?
Chaotic Evil Funky- I freakin tried to burn down the ocean!