PDA

View Full Version : amusing Vow of Peace idea



Godna
2008-12-09, 10:06 AM
If i recall correctly with vow of peace allows you to have any manufactored weapon that strikes roll a DC or be shattered at the cost of being inable to deal leathal damage so i came up with an amusing character concept. You have a character that is basically hulk hogan that goes around beating the tar out of people with nonlethal damage and breaking weapons on his chest and i want to know if there are any rules that such a character would be breaking and if not how to optimize the weapon breaking chance.

Mephit
2008-12-09, 10:27 AM
No, that's perfectly legal. Problems though:

- You can't kill things, nor let your party do it for you. This could make you more unloved than the paladin. (At least he lets you kill the really evil ones)

- Some things are simply immune to nonlethal damage.

It's not gamebreaking at all. After all, there are spells, arrows, etc to take you down.

Oh, and don't forget: Anyone who nears you is affected by the calm emotions spell. Max out the DC, let them get close, watch them get their guard down...And then bear the snot out of them.

Glimbur
2008-12-09, 10:33 AM
bear the snot out of them.

You'll need some levels in Druid or Primeval or some such.

Godna
2008-12-09, 10:35 AM
I don't think i would have to much of a problem with that stuff. the not letting my party kill stuff for me isn't a problem since as long as they arent helpless or defenseless i don't have a problem and they wont hate me as long as they can still rob the unconscious baddies blind. Anyway since we have the legality confirmed how can i max the chance that weapons will break on contact?


Imaging the incharacter fun

Vow taker:Who said Im violent I'll ****ing kill you
Team mate: Actually you cant kill me what with your Vows
Vow taker: Than i'll beat the bloody hell outta ya

Animefunkmaster
2008-12-09, 10:38 AM
Vow of Peace= Wet Blanket + lots of hassle with your party.

kamikasei
2008-12-09, 10:44 AM
I don't think i would have to much of a problem with that stuff. the not letting my party kill stuff for me isn't a problem since as long as they arent helpless or defenseless i don't have a problem and they wont hate me as long as they can still rob the unconscious baddies blind.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here but if you're saying that you're okay with the party killing enemies so long as those enemies aren't helpless at the time, It Doesn't Work That Way. The Vows are supposed to be powerful bonuses balanced out by the strict requirements they place on your character. I'm AFB and can't check the exact wording, but if it says you can't kill or let your party kill then you can't weasel out of or around that by arguing that it's okay so long as the bad guy's fighting back - you've taken a sacred vow of such potency that the gods themselves give you blessings to aid its furtherance, it doesn't really allow for legalism or letter-not-spirit nonsense. Such is basically getting the benefit without the cost.


- Some things are simply immune to nonlethal damage.

For most such things, you can deal lethal damage, though, right? I mean, Vow of Peace will still let you beat up a construct or zombie? Not sure how it interacts with intelligent undead and the like, though.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-12-09, 10:49 AM
Ability Focus, for one. Increase the DC by two.

For build, might I suggest making a Neandrathal Paladin with the feat that lets you convert smite damage into nonlethal damage? Then take, a sugliin, the Sugliin Mastery feat, and add the Merciful enchantment. Deal 2d8+1d6 nonlethal damage per round.

EDIT: That would actually be a pretty fun character to play. I would probably restrict it to Vow of Nonviolence, though, so it's less of a hassle on the party.

Person_Man
2008-12-09, 10:56 AM
It's a great concept. But it basically only works if everyone in the party takes Vow of Peace, because everyone else in the party is basically held to your standard of non-lethalness.

If your DM is nice, they'll let you take the Vow, play a dedicated healer/protector or something similar that never attacks, and have you hand wave the "my party must be pusses" away. "I'm a pacifist, but I can't let my friends die in their pursuit of destruction against the Ultimate Evil..." That way you get to play what you want, focus on Skills and roleplaying and protection, and not be a Lawful Stupid "you have to do this because it's what my character would do" player.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-12-09, 11:56 AM
It's a great concept. But it basically only works if everyone in the party takes Vow of Peace, because everyone else in the party is basically held to your standard of non-lethalness.

If your DM is nice, they'll let you take the Vow, play a dedicated healer/protector or something similar that never attacks, and have you hand wave the "my party must be pusses" away. "I'm a pacifist, but I can't let my friends die in their pursuit of destruction against the Ultimate Evil..." That way you get to play what you want, focus on Skills and roleplaying and protection, and not be a Lawful Stupid "you have to do this because it's what my character would do" player.

Hence why in my build you stick to Vow of Nonviolence.

Much less restrictive. I mean, you can't let your comrades execute enemies, but I doubt most Good parties are going to have a problem with that.

jcsw
2008-12-09, 12:11 PM
This build requires some DM intervention in that Justicar's ability to deal strength damage is intended to keep the target alive...

(actually the build is better off without the vow anyway...)

Ranger of Mystra 6/Justicar 2/Arcane Duelist 10/Kensai 2

Arcane Duelist Located Here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a)
Rangers of Mystra have access to the Sword of the Arcane order feat (Champions of Valor) which lets them cast arcane spells.

At level 20, your attack routine is
Main: +13/+8/+3
Off: +11/+6

With both Haste and Arcane Duelist's "Flurry", it becomes
Main: +12/+12/+12/+7/+2
Off: +10/+5

Both Kensai and Arcane Duelist can provide an enchantment bonus to your weapon, totalling a +6. Lets assume you have another +4 enchantment bonus.
Assuming your dex (finesse) score has reached epic levels of +12
And with an arcane duelist, you actually get a net bonus for using oversized weapons. Since the nonlethal damage is actually less valuable than the strength damage, lets subtract the entire damage potential except 1 of a colossal +10 longsword. (6d6+10) for a +45 to hit and a -8 for size.

Our attack bonuses suddenly become
Main: +71/+71/+71/+66/+61
Off: +69/+64

And while you're using arcane duelist's flurry, you create a minimum of four clones and a maximum of seven, who have the same attack routine as you.
Assuming minimum clones, and assuming all attacks hit, you deal 28 strength damage.

Mystral
2008-12-09, 12:27 PM
Actually, where does it say that your party members have to adhere to the same vow as you do? Because of the vow of nonviolence, they are forbidden to kill helpless or subdued foes and get a moral penality if they do so. You even break your vow if you let them kill a helpless foe.

But there isn't anything like that in the "vow of peace" feat.

overduegalaxy
2008-12-09, 12:27 PM
There's always the Reaping Mauler PrC from CWar. While it's not very good, it does fit the fluff well here.

Aergoth
2008-12-09, 12:33 PM
Mystral, you can't let others be killed. That means that you in fact can't let your party members kill it for you, because it breaks the oath.

Oathbreaker [General]
Wow. You broke a sacred promise. To a god. What kind of stupid are you?
Effect: You take a -2 punishment bonus for breaking your oath.
Anyone with a claim on your oath can command you do do anything. Without payment other than releasing you from your (now broken) oath.
Special: You gain this feat automatically when you break an oath.

Aergoth
2008-12-09, 12:34 PM
Mystral, you can't let others be harmed. It's kind of the point. Others. That means everything. Including that goblin trying to kill you. (Just go hug it) That means that you in fact can't let your party members kill it for you, because it breaks the oath, because you let it come to harm. If I understood that correctly. Inaction is the same as evil if you're lawful good.

Oathbreaker [General]
Wow. You broke a sacred promise. To a god. What kind of stupid are you?
Effect: You take a -2 punishment penalty to everything for breaking your oath. Yes. It's all your fault.
Anyone with a claim on your oath can command you do do anything. Without payment other than releasing you from your (now broken) oath.
Special: You gain this feat automatically when you break a sacred oath.

Frerezar
2008-12-09, 12:38 PM
go for Goliath monk justiciar. Defensive throw + hog tie + karmic strike (or robillars gambit) works quite nicely for subduing oponents quickly. Take improved grapple of course as well

Mystral
2008-12-09, 12:38 PM
Nope. You can't let your party members kill the Goblin after they restrained and questioned them. If they killed him in the heat of battle, it might be regretfull, but nothing that will break your oath.

Note that in the description of the Vow of Peace, not one word is written about your party, and in the description of the Vow of Nonviolence, only helpless foes are mentioned. Or am I using the wrong version of the BOED?

Person_Man
2008-12-09, 12:40 PM
Interestingly enough, if you hand wave the alignment restriction (or take the April Fool's Day Avenger variant), then Assassin actually makes a good Vow of Peace build. You can paralyze with Death Attack. Many of the Assassin spells are stealth or toolbox oriented. And Sneak Attack can be non-lethal damage if you use a sap or take the Merciful enhancement or feat.

Godna
2008-12-09, 12:51 PM
in the two feats descriptions there isn't anything stopping them from getting away with killing the enemy as long as they aren't helpless or anything.


VOW OF PEACE [EXALTED]
You have taken a sacred vow to abstain from harming any living
creature.
Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence.
Benefit: This sacred vow grants significant supernatural
benefits, but its cost is high.
First, you are constantly surrounded by a calming aura to a
radius of 20 feet. Creatures within the aura must make a successful
Will save (DC 10 + one-half your character level + your
Cha modifier) or be affected as by the calm emotions spell. Creatures
who leave the aura and reenter it receive new saving
throws. A creature that makes a successful saving throw and
remains in the aura is unaffected until it leaves the aura and
reenters. The aura is a mind-affecting, supernatural compulsion.
Second, you gain a +2 natural armor bonus to your AC, a +2
deflection bonus to your AC, and a +2 exalted bonus to your AC.
This exalted bonus does not apply to touch attacks and does not
hinder incorporeal touch attacks. Brilliant energy weapons,
however, do not ignore it. It does not stack with an armor bonus.
If you also have the Vow of Poverty feat, the natural armor,
deflection, and exalted Armor Class bonuses granted by that feat
all increase by +2. If a creature strikes you with a manufactured
weapon, the weapon must immediately make a successful Fortitude
save (DC 10 + one-half your character level + your Con
modifier) or shatter against your skin, leaving you unharmed.
Finally, you gain a +4 exalted bonus on all Diplomacy checks.
Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not cause harm to any
living creature (constructs and undead are not included in this
prohibition). You may not deal real damage or ability damage to
such creatures through spells or weapons, though you may deal
nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects,
disintegrate, or other spells that have the immediate potential to
cause death or great harm. You also may not use nondamaging
spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can
kill them—if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.
If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and
irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another
feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion
or otherwise unwittingly, you lose the benefit of this feat
until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement
spell. (Characters who have taken a Vow of Peace are known to
drink water through a strainer in order to avoid accidentally swallowing,
and thereby causing harm to, a small insect.)

Nothing about stopping the party from killing in battle as long as the enemy aren't helpless and nonviolence is the same

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-09, 01:24 PM
Interestingly enough, if you hand wave the alignment restriction (or take the April Fool's Day Avenger variant), then Assassin actually makes a good Vow of Peace build. You can paralyze with Death Attack. Many of the Assassin spells are stealth or toolbox oriented. And Sneak Attack can be non-lethal damage if you use a sap or take the Merciful enhancement or feat.

You could also become an Assassin first, then repent your evil ways and take up the epic art of Basketweaving (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=873736).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-09, 01:28 PM
You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them—if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.If you hinder an opponent at all and they die at the hands of your allies, you fall. Yeah.

Mewtarthio
2008-12-09, 01:31 PM
Well, you could argue that anyone you attack has been "weakened," so your allies violoate your vow if they kill them. Given how nonlethal damage works, however, if the allies bring an enemy from conscious to dead in a single blow, you probably didn't make a difference. It's only a problem if your allies deal lethal damage to somebody under the effects of some sort of status ailment (eg stunned) that you've caused. If they kill someone you haven't touched, there's no argument: Your vow is safe.

Tacoma
2008-12-09, 02:27 PM
Perfect example of how you simply cannot appeal to RAW and expect that to solve your problems.

This could be interpreted as "if you deal even a single point of nonlethal to an orc who is then killed, it's your fault because you weakened him,"

but also "you can punch him to the brink of unconsciousness then move on to the next opponent so someone can knock him out by causing a couple points of lethal damage, then slit his throat after the fight,"

or perhaps "you could buy a weapon with a Merciful power that's slightly nerfed such that it cannot knock him out, thus giving your friends an enemy with just one HP left before unconsciousness and a quick coup de grace."

The water strainer thing is just stupid. You couldn't receive a Cure Disease spell because it would kill the thousands of virii or bacteria in your body. And if you ever got a cold, when your immune system (which is a part of you) killed the virii you'd lose your vow benefits until you atoned.

And what about eating meat? How could you eat a quail egg knowing that you're contributing to the death of future quail as a result of your support for the quail egg market? Of more directly, how could you eat a turkey dinner knowing someone just killed that turkey for you to eat?

If a gnat in your water is worthy of breaking your vow, then all the gnats you swallow in your sleep would immediately cause you to break it. What about that time when you were walking through the forest and you stepped on a caterpillar? O NOES!

And just how far do you have to go to keep your friends from killing a goblin they captured? And why is it okay for you to sit back and do nothing while they slaughter it so long as it has weapons in its hands, but as soon as it's knocked out it's a treasured innocent who must be protected at all costs?

What about the goblin you meet hunting in the wintertime? Let's say you tie him up and leave him - but wait, he will surely die of exposure if you leave him!

Paradoxically, since starvation causes nonlethal damage, it's perfectly fine for a Vow of Peace holder to torture a goblin, breaking its fingers, tearing off fingernails, smacking him nonlethally to unconsciousness and waiting for him to wake up again, starving him for months (remember, you can't die from nonlethal damage), perhaps even putting a Necklace of Regeneration on the goblin and letting his friends cut off body parts until he's just a full-HP goblin torso and head.

Technically you can deal lethal damage without weapons or spells. You could lay him on the ground and lay a board on him, and crush him under the combined weight of your party. If you were a Monk, able to cause lethal damage unarmed, you could just punch people to death as normal. The feat describes what you can and can't do with spells and weapons, but not poisons, diseased blankets, psionic powers, Warlock Invocations, non-weapon magic items, traps, drowning, psychological torture, economic exploitation, use of animals to trample or otherwise kill, etc.

Vow of Peace is better used as a purely roleplaying mechanic. They just got on a roll with these vows and didn't know when their brainstorming results outstripped their game balancing abilities.

Jack2000
2008-12-09, 04:08 PM
This thread is very relevant to my interests.
Especially the smite pally type. with the holy subdual feat.

Godna
2008-12-09, 05:08 PM
You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them—if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.

What does the bold part say?

SPELLS as in magic

and it doesn't say i cant use non damaging magic to incapacitiate them. It says i cant use it to incapacitiate them so that my allies can kill them.

On top of that nothing it says stops me from waltzing over than a pile driving the victim into every table in the country side and wailing on him until it stops being funny

Person_Man
2008-12-09, 05:56 PM
How far must a pacifist go?

There are several Eastern religions that believe that every living thing has a soul (or spiritual value equal to or above humans). Therefore they are strict ascetic pacifists. This often includes a vegetarian or vegan diet, non-violence in thought, word, and deed towards all living beings, walking barefoot to avoid killing tiny creatures, wearing special masks to avoid breathing in insects, and other similar practices.

Western pacifist religions get around this problem because they don't believe that non-humans have souls. Their god has granted us dominion over the earth.

Non-pacifist religions usually get around the "do not kill" rules written into their religions by writing in exceptions. Just War, non-believers forfeit their soul, its ok to kill as long as you're upholding a higher law, etc.

Its reasonable to assume that a PC can sit down with his DM and come up with a set of workable religious tenets somewhere in the vaguely Western pacifist tradition. For example, you could pledge not to kill or purposefully take part in the killing of any intelligent being that has a moral choice about its life (not "Always Evil") As you suggest, just following RAW is ridiculous in this instance. No one would fault you for killing micororganisms or insects, unless they just want to be jerks or intellectual snobs about it.

Godna
2008-12-10, 05:47 PM
So can i get some assistance in maxing the chance weapons will break on me. Also where can i find the rules for how a weapon rolls its saving DC?

Epinephrine
2008-12-10, 05:56 PM
You'll need some levels in Druid or Primeval or some such.

Or just Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bear. If you swing them fluff side out they probably deal subdual.

monty
2008-12-10, 05:56 PM
So can i get some assistance in maxing the chance weapons will break on me. Also where can i find the rules for how a weapon rolls its saving DC?

From the SRD, under Spell Descriptions:


The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.

In other words, the wielder's saves for a nonmagical weapon, or either the wielder's saves or 2+CL/2 for magic items.

Godna
2008-12-10, 07:42 PM
So there isnt a lot i can do to increase the chance for it to work?

Tacoma
2008-12-10, 07:51 PM
This often includes a vegetarian or vegan diet ...

Yet more pro-mobile propaganda. Do plants not deserve, as living things, our peace and love? How can you eat a carrot knowing without your intervention it would have grown into a ... slightly larger and more delicious carrot? One with hopes and dreams?! A Venus Flytrap is a carnivore, and yet would you eat it? What of a Treant?

Note that the Vow of Peace says you can kill Undead and Constructs, but you cannot kill Plants. This obviously means you must adapt and learn to enjoy eating bones, ectoplasm, and formaldehyde-soaked necrotizing flesh.

But I agree with all the text you typed. I think the Vow of Peace could be more like a stricter Paladin's Oath and still be balanced.

The DM could give you a DC bonus for the weapon breakage depending on how well you've been roleplaying the Vow recently.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-10, 08:21 PM
I'm not quite sure what you mean here but if you're saying that you're okay with the party killing enemies so long as those enemies aren't helpless at the time, It Doesn't Work That Way.
As written, it kinda does.

That is, if you're fighting off an opponent, and it doesn't surrender, but dies due to a blow that takes it from 10 hit points to -10 hit points, there is no violation (as long as the person with the Vow doesn't do the damage, or render the opponent Helpless (a game-defined term) so that they can deliver a killing blow) in the doing.

Now, if the opponent surrenders (or you render it Helpless), you tie it up, take it's stuff, and then untie it and let your buddies execute it after "freeing" it, then yeah, you've broken the vow (unless it's given you an oath of release, and it breaks the terms of said oath prior to your buddies attacking it).

This is as it's written up in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Although the "I'll beat you up for insulting me" bit is in violation of the Exalted status required to qualify for the Vows in the first place.


Yet more pro-mobile propaganda. Do plants not deserve, as living things, our peace and love? How can you eat a carrot knowing without your intervention it would have grown into a ... slightly larger and more delicious carrot? One with hopes and dreams?! A Venus Flytrap is a carnivore, and yet would you eat it? What of a Treant?

Note that the Vow of Peace says you can kill Undead and Constructs, but you cannot kill Plants. This obviously means you must adapt and learn to enjoy eating bones, ectoplasm, and formaldehyde-soaked necrotizing flesh.
Just make sure to take Vow of Poverty as well - Sustenance at 5th level, and a bonus Exalted feat at 6th...

Godna
2008-12-10, 10:04 PM
Not touching the vow of poverty and it says the only way to lose the feat is to deliberately do evil so perhaps the character really was exalted until he got the feats than something like alcohol turned him into a slightly less righteous holy man. That about how i was planning on playing it he will still abstain from killing people and even stop the group if the enemy happens to be helpless perhaps might go as far as to stabilize a few, but still enjoys doling out the nonlethal damage.


As far as food goes it doesn't say he has to go for the vegan thing it just says that some take it that far. Nothing in it says that i cant whole heartily embrace cannibalism as long as I'm not the one who killed him but i wouldn't take it that far as funny as my dm my find it.

Mewtarthio
2008-12-11, 01:54 AM
Yet more pro-mobile propaganda. Do plants not deserve, as living things, our peace and love? How can you eat a carrot knowing without your intervention it would have grown into a ... slightly larger and more delicious carrot? One with hopes and dreams?! A Venus Flytrap is a carnivore, and yet would you eat it? What of a Treant?

I've actually heard of a religious sect (I think it's an offshoot of Hinduism? Starts with a 'J', maybe?) in the real world that takes its pacifism that far. Apparently, they can only eat fruit that has ripened and fallen off the plant naturally.

Grynning
2008-12-11, 01:55 AM
Although the "I'll beat you up for insulting me" bit is in violation of the Exalted status required to qualify for the Vows in the first place.


Actually the behavior in and of itself is not necessarily Evil, just Chaotic. Worshipers of Kord are known for delivering friendly beat downs in many situations. I really like the concept overall.

In many cases, you could say that the non-lethal brawler is being good by fighting those who are disrespectful or mean-spirited to teach them a lesson, and providing entertainment and validation to others by making it all fun and games where the bad guy doesn't actually get hurt.

Btw, someone mentioned Assassin/Rogue earlier and using a sap - can't you deliver non-lethal SA's with just an unarmed strike? If you have the Imp. Unarmed feat or a monk level, you count as armed, and you can pick which damage type it is, so, yeah, no sap required.

Fcannon
2008-12-11, 03:54 AM
I've actually heard of a religious sect (I think it's an offshoot of Hinduism? Starts with a 'J', maybe?) in the real world that takes its pacifism that far. Apparently, they can only eat fruit that has ripened and fallen off the plant naturally.

You're probably thinking of Jainism, though they're just vegetarians.

Mewtarthio
2008-12-11, 02:30 PM
You're probably thinking of Jainism, though they're just vegetarians.

From what Wikipedia says, I seem to have gotten the relationship with Hinduism wrong, and it looks like the most extreme Janists get is refusing to eat root vegetables. I guess they can all pick apples without any reprecussions.

Either I've been somewhat misinformed or somewhat confused. Well, the point still stands: Even the most extreme follower of the Vow of Peace can eat fruit. I guess if your DM is really sadistic, he might make you pluck out each individual seed and plant it, but by that point he clearly doesn't want you playing with that feat.

Person_Man
2008-12-11, 04:37 PM
I've actually heard of a religious sect (I think it's an offshoot of Hinduism? Starts with a 'J', maybe?) in the real world that takes its pacifism that far. Apparently, they can only eat fruit that has ripened and fallen off the plant naturally.

That's actually a common misinterpretation of Janeism and other pacifist Indian religions that include elements of Ahimsa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa). You're thinking of Fruitarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarian), which is largely an anachronism.

Back on topic, basically the best thing you can do is boost your Cha bonusa. Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) comes to mind. Find a race with a high Cha bonus and low LA. Take a few levels of Paladin for synergy.

Tacoma
2008-12-11, 04:57 PM
You could always play an Oxygenarian (http://www7.kingdomofloathing.com).

Okay, so how would you make Vow of Peace actually work?

A CLASS FAILURE
1: You can't personally maim or kill anything. This includes causing lethal damage type. You can't have someone you control (a summoned creature, a follower, a cohort, an employee, a charmed enemy, etc) do it either.

*This results is loss of feat benefits permanently. You wasted a feat choice. You gain Oathbreaker or whatever it's called.

B CLASS FAILURE
2: You cannot beat things up severely. This includes causing a lot of nonlethal damage or causing a lot of pain by hitting someone for a little nonlethal damage many times.
3: You cannot cause pain to something unless it's necessary to heal it. This includes torture that doesn't cause damage points.
4: You cannot let your friends kill helpless or friendly creatures (including hunting herbivorous animals, bound prisoners, Commoners, etc).

**These result in a loss of feat benefits until atonement.

C CLASS FAILURE
5: You cannot let your friends kill dangerous creatures or torture anything. Each creature killed or tortured counts as a failure. Torturing followed by killing counts as two.

*** These result in a black mark. Each day you remove one black mark. If you have even one black mark you lose the feat benefits. Atonement removes some or all of your black marks.

Anyone can kill Constructs without a problem. Undead can be killed by the VoP character or his friends only if they're aggressive. Friendly Undead count as normal friendly creatures.

Most of the time, the VoP character is gathering black marks like crazy with Class C failures. If the player roleplays trying to get the party not to kill or torture creatures (say, disarming the bandits and beating them up, sending them away naked with their wounded) then he obviously doesn't trip the Class C failure. But if he really tries in RP to get them to stop killing but they do it anyway, the DM can decide to not give him a black mark. But he can't just handwave it and say he's always trying to make them peaceful but they ignore him - he actually has to roleplay a serious attempt.

And sometimes the players will need to kill something. That's fine. But the VoP character won't get his weapon breaky that day.

What do you think?

Grynning
2008-12-11, 06:08 PM
I think your version is a lot more restrictive than the original feat. Vow of Peace does NOT keep your party from killing things, as has been mentioned previously, nor does it keep you from knocking things out with non-lethal damage, which your version does.

Seriously, the feat is not that hard to RP as-is. Yes, you have to think more creatively and not just try to kill stuff. But the OP's character idea is a fine one.

Godna
2008-12-11, 10:56 PM
Thank you for all the input on this its really great to hear such good feed back so how such i run this character? I was thinking of having him fight unarmed, but i'm not sold on the idea of him being a monk. any suggestions on what class/classes i should make him or additional feats i can give him?

monty
2008-12-11, 10:59 PM
Thank you for all the input on this its really great to hear such good feed back so how such i run this character? I was thinking of having him fight unarmed, but i'm not sold on the idea of him being a monk. any suggestions on what class/classes i should make him or additional feats i can give him?

In before unarmed swordsage.

Grynning
2008-12-11, 11:22 PM
Does Sacred Fist from CD actually require you to be a monk, or just have monk-ish feats (I don't own the book anymore)? Because a Sacred Fist of Kord would be a neat way to do this build. If it doesn't require monk, be a Barbarian/Cleric with the right feats to qualify for the PrC. If the PrC does require you to be a monk, use the Chaos Monk variant (from...somewhere) to keep your flavor. Not sure how feat intensive this'd be, because of course you're using three of your feats to get to vow of peace.

Unarmed Swordsage/Crusader would work as well if you want to do ToB.