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RMS Oceanic
2008-12-09, 11:28 AM
Out of curiosity, I'm weighing the pros and cons of each race as a sorceror.

Sylph with 9 HD (Max allowed before class levels, with LA +5 equivalent level 14)
Casts as a level 13 sorceror
9d8 hp (Average 42)
+9 BAB
+6 Fort/Ref/Will saves
Max Skill Ranks 12
4 feats
Fly speed 90 ft (Good)
Invisibility at will
Summon Elemental VII (Air) 1/day

Human Sorceror 14
Casts as a level 14 sorceror
14d4 hp (Average 36)
+7 BAB
+9 will save, +4 fort/ref
Max Skill Ranks 17
6 feats

So what would you pick for a sorceror?

Ascension
2008-12-09, 11:35 AM
If your game is starting at 14th level or above, the Sylph is the way to go, mechanically speaking. That said, I imagine a sylph would have a number of non-mechanical disadvantages if placed in the average D&D adventuring party. And the lack of feats stings a bit.

Draz74
2008-12-09, 11:38 AM
Tough call. Really comes down to: Do you want to be a Sorcerer, first and foremost? Is spellcasting really your top priority? Cuz you'll stick with the build that's one caster level ahead, if so.

Also, note that if you have CON of at least 14, the straight Sorcerer is winning over the Sylph in HP, even with the Outsider d8 Hit Dice.

Prometheus
2008-12-09, 11:52 AM
I'd take the Sylph, but maybe that's just because I think being invisible and flying all the time would be fun. In addition I'd imagine it would be especially suited for builds that gain sneak attack damage for use in ray attacks.

Tehnar
2008-12-09, 11:53 AM
Uhh dont Slyph also get their CON bonus to hp with their racial HD?
Also which MM is the Slyph from?

Kurald Galain
2008-12-09, 11:54 AM
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png FTW!

Draz74
2008-12-09, 11:57 AM
Uhh dont Slyph also get their CON bonus to hp with their racial HD?

Yes. But the Sorcerer has 5 more hit dice than the Sylph. So the CON bonus helps her more, by an amount equal to 5 times the CON bonus.

Eldariel
2008-12-09, 12:35 PM
Human has more HP, feats, bigger saves, higher caster level, more skills and the option of PrCing. Sylph has...err...fly-speed and a really cute face? Yea, I'd go with a Human.

jcsw
2008-12-09, 12:51 PM
Human has more HP

Err, what?

You also forgot invisibility at will and summon elemental.

Also, sylph has +6, wis +6, int +4, dex +2, str -2 and con -2. Take that into account.

valadil
2008-12-09, 12:58 PM
Sylph does seem pretty strong. I guess it's a matter of figuring out the rest of your build and seeing how hurt you are by 2 missing feats. A fly speed definitely makes up for one of those, but I'm not sure about the other. I play sorcs as very feat heavy and would hesitate to play a non human.

What book is Sylph in anyway?

jcsw
2008-12-09, 01:01 PM
What book is Sylph in anyway?


Monster Manual Two.

BobVosh
2008-12-09, 01:07 PM
Sylph does seem pretty strong. I guess it's a matter of figuring out the rest of your build and seeing how hurt you are by 2 missing feats. A fly speed definitely makes up for one of those, but I'm not sure about the other. I play sorcs as very feat heavy and would hesitate to play a non human.

What book is Sylph in anyway?

Greater Invisibilty at will? Trust me... worth it.

Zweanslord
2008-12-09, 01:09 PM
Sylphs actually have improved invisibility at will, meaning that you can cast whatever spell you want while invisible and not become visible. Minor detail, but quite noteworthy.

Draz74 is mostly spot on, the question is answered based on what you want. As pure spellcaster, the human wins out due to earlier casting of higher spell levels and more spells known. Do you want something other than that, then the Sylph may win out.

Let us not forget that the Sylph has stat modifiers as well. These do not pan out well towards hp, admittedly, what with their -2 to con. But with a total stat array of -2 str +2 dex -2 con +4 int +6 wis +6 cha, we are looking at some top notch DC's for your spells.

Your max skill ranks may be lower than that of your human counterpart, but you will have more skill points with 8+int per level and +4 int. And as per the MM2 update to 3.5 document and the "all listed skills for a creature are class skills" phrase in the MM, they have 11 class skills for their outsider HD, which is more than the sorcerer. Although, again admitting, they are different than that of the sorcerer: Balance, Concentration, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival and Tumble.
Another minor point is that the Sylph are outsiders and have SR, though the latter will not really be enough to stop a full spellcaster.

Personally, I would chose Sylph because I like flying, improved invisibility, high stats and skills.

Naturally, when the opposition is using detect invisibility/true seeing and have high enough saves to easily pass the higher dc's of your spells due to higher cha, then the sylph is starting to look less formidable. When skills (or in specific, the sylph class skills) are not important and you do not need the extra spells per day from high charisma but are in need of more spells known and of higher levels.. With all that the Sylph will start to look like a poor choice, since the flying part can be largely mimicked by a spell or magic item.

Telonius
2008-12-09, 01:14 PM
As a Sorcerer, you're always looking for any way to get spells known. 2nd level has a ton of other great spells just in Core (Mirror Image, Web, Glitterdust, Darkness, Blur, Rope Trick, Knock, Spider Climb....), and you only get to choose five of them. At-will invisibility means you don't have to give up one of the others. Flight speed is even better. 3rd-level gets you spells like Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud, Blink, Haste, Phantom Steed, Gaseous Form, and the ever-popular Explosive Runes. Not having to take Fly will free up one of those more powerful spells.

EDIT: Greater Invisibility? Even better then.

Draz74
2008-12-09, 01:29 PM
Let us not forget that the Sylph has stat modifiers as well. These do not pan out well towards hp, admittedly, what with their -2 to con. But with a total stat array of -2 str +2 dex -2 con +4 int +6 wis +6 cha, we are looking at some top notch DC's for your spells.

Let's do a comparison of stats between the two races, using 28-point buy allocated in a pretty normal manner. See where that gets us. Let's go with ECL 14 like the OP, and no items (for simplicity).

Human: Str 8, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 20
Sylph: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 24

The Sylph is definitely winning in stats. And it's only barely losing in HP, since its Outsider HD almost make up for its having 5 less hit dice.

Spells Known is about a wash, since Invisibility and Flight and Summon Elemental do free up your Spells Known list a bit.

Spells/Day is a wash too. The Human will have more spells/day at the highest levels available, but with a higher Charisma, the Sylph will have more low-level spells. And Sorcerers always, of course, need to be good at using their low-level spell slots effectively.

The Human is winning in feats and caster level.

The Sylph is winning in saves; lower base Will save, but a much better Wisdom makes up for that. She is much more versatile skill-wise, but worse at the few skills that the Human really focuses on (probably Concentration, Know(arcana), Spellcraft, and Bluff). Overall, I think I give the "win" on skills to the Sylph.

Yeah. The Sylph certainly isn't a terrible choice, unless you were going for real optimization -- in which case you'd pick Wizard rather than Sorcerer anyway. But the Sylph isn't a clearly better choice either.

... which is, ideally, how LA races should always have been.

mostlyharmful
2008-12-09, 02:02 PM
The Sorc also gets a familiar or gets to trade their familiar for something juicey.

Personally I'd go with Slyph if my DM let me have the option but it's a personal choice thing (I just love flying invis mages) rather than a straight answer.

valadil
2008-12-09, 02:10 PM
Is greater invisibility at will something you can cast or something you can cast on yourself? Being invisible all the time is great, but you still might want the spell for the sake of your allies.

Zweanslord
2008-12-09, 04:02 PM
Greater invisibility is (self only) for the sylph.

Draz74, nice comparison, and I agree about skills, feats and caster level. So you can't bluff as well as a Sylph.. but you can function as the scout with your possible perception and stealth skills.
I am less convinced about spells known and per day to be a wash. Yes, Greater Invisibility and Flight can be counted as being spells known per day, but as valadil pointed out, they can not be used on allies. And Summon Elemental is only a 1/day thing. While you are right sorcerers need to be efficient with low level spells too, it is the high level spells that are most important. And Greater Invisibility at will is just so powerful.

As for Sylph being a better choice or not, and as to whether or not LA should have been like that, I have to admit I disagree. From a theoretical point of view, one could argue about the finer points, but there is one ability that breaks the Sylph. Greater Invisibility on yourself (and only yourself) might be too powerful since you can basically have it up all day in addition to your sorcerous powers. Anything without the ability to see invisible.. well, you do not have 'just an advantage', you have one heck of an advantage! And with the skills of a sylph, it is even likely that the others can not see through invisibility even when they have high perception skills. A normal sorcerer with invisibility can still be heard and even when walking can be spotted by another focused on perception. A sylph? Far more unlikely.
It could give your DM a head ache, because a normal sorcerer using Greater Invisibility would have to recast it every so often and it costs spells per day, while the sylphs takes a vacation in enemy territory without a significant risk to be noticed. And if you really make your DM mad, then suddenly a lot of your enemies have counter measures versus invisibility, negating that advantage. As DM, this kind of ability just means there is more to take into account all the time lest it be potentially abused, and that is not always as desired.

To summarise: The Sylph, with its greater invisibility, can have situations where the ability is way too useful, or situations where it does not matter with invisibility-negating things. However, usually it will be the former.

So, no, the Sylph remains very powerful indeed, too powerful simply because of the power invisibility has in quite the amount of campaigns. Is that how LA should have been? I think I can safely say that the answer to that is a definite no.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-09, 05:55 PM
Greater invisibility is (self only) for the sylph.

Draz74, nice comparison, and I agree about skills, feats and caster level. So you can't bluff as well as a Sylph.. but you can function as the scout with your possible perception and stealth skills.
I am less convinced about spells known and per day to be a wash. Yes, Greater Invisibility and Flight can be counted as being spells known per day, but as valadil pointed out, they can not be used on allies. And Summon Elemental is only a 1/day thing. While you are right sorcerers need to be efficient with low level spells too, it is the high level spells that are most important. And Greater Invisibility at will is just so powerful.

As for Sylph being a better choice or not, and as to whether or not LA should have been like that, I have to admit I disagree. From a theoretical point of view, one could argue about the finer points, but there is one ability that breaks the Sylph. Greater Invisibility on yourself (and only yourself) might be too powerful since you can basically have it up all day in addition to your sorcerous powers. Anything without the ability to see invisible.. well, you do not have 'just an advantage', you have one heck of an advantage! And with the skills of a sylph, it is even likely that the others can not see through invisibility even when they have high perception skills. A normal sorcerer with invisibility can still be heard and even when walking can be spotted by another focused on perception. A sylph? Far more unlikely.
It could give your DM a head ache, because a normal sorcerer using Greater Invisibility would have to recast it every so often and it costs spells per day, while the sylphs takes a vacation in enemy territory without a significant risk to be noticed. And if you really make your DM mad, then suddenly a lot of your enemies have counter measures versus invisibility, negating that advantage. As DM, this kind of ability just means there is more to take into account all the time lest it be potentially abused, and that is not always as desired.

To summarise: The Sylph, with its greater invisibility, can have situations where the ability is way too useful, or situations where it does not matter with invisibility-negating things. However, usually it will be the former.

So, no, the Sylph remains very powerful indeed, too powerful simply because of the power invisibility has in quite the amount of campaigns. Is that how LA should have been? I think I can safely say that the answer to that is a definite no.

Indeed, LA races should always be strictly inferior to other races, and you should gain absolutely no benefits from taking them.

Especially not Invis at will, seeing as there is no other way besides race to get that ability:

Ring of Invis
Incantatrix
Anima Mage
Cleric with DMM Persist and right domain.
Multiple classes.
Anyone with a high Hide check and some method of having concealment.
Plenty of races, including Pixie.

jcsw
2008-12-10, 12:53 AM
You need to put /s tags on that, Blood_Lord... >.<

Anyway, there's always the cheese you can pull with the ambiguous definition of the Sylph's "Caster level = hit dice".
If you define "hit dice" as racial hit dice, the race is as powerful as we have been discussing here.
If you define "hit dice" as normal hit dice, then you could have something like Sylph LA 5/Sylph HD 3/Rogue 12, and have Sorceror Casting 19 and Sneak Attack +6d6.

Raging Gene Ray
2008-12-10, 01:00 AM
If you define "hit dice" as normal hit dice...

You mean there are DMs who interpret it as racial hit die only?

jcsw
2008-12-10, 02:04 AM
Well, if it weren't "Racial Hit Die Only" it would be overpowered for only 5 LA.

Zweanslord
2008-12-10, 05:17 AM
Blood_Lord, there is no need to quote a post when it is directly above your own.

I am not saying that LA races should be inferior than normal races, not at all. In fact, I do agree with Draz74's statement, LA races should ideally have been a viable and not clear cut choice. I, on the other hand, argue that the Sylph does not fall under that, because of the Greater Invisibility at will.

As for your argument that it can be obtained by other means, that is true. However, as you will note, Pixie has the same ability. And I say it thus suffers from the same problem as the Sylph with its Greater Invisibility at will. A ring of invisibility is not a ring of greater invisibility and thus, any time you do something offensive you break the invisibility. And a ring of invisibility arguably only grants invisibility for 3 rounds, due to its caster level of 3.
A cleric with DMM Persist and the right domain.. well, excuse me, but I consider that cheese and not a viable argument as to why it is okay that a Sylph has Greater Invisibility at will.

I do not see Incantrix nor Anima Mage having Greater Invisibility at will as class ability, unless you mean applying Persist cheaply on Greater Invisibility somehow? That is still not Greater Invisibility at will, since you can not de-activate it at will any number of times per day. Additionally, it is using Persist cheaply to cast all kinds of buffs which would not normally be possible due to the amount Persist Metamagic pushes the spell level of the spell in the normal situation. And again, using something that is too powerful in its own right makes it okay for a Sylph to have Greater Invisibility at will?

There are classes who, on the other hand, do have Greater Invisibility at will under their possible class features, such as the warlock with its invocations. However, the earliest level to get that is level 16, while you can play a Sylph from ECL 6. Now, you can argue that the warlock gets Invisibility at Will potentially at level 6, and while not Greater Invisibility, it is still Invisibility at will, then you are right. However, the warlock does not have sorcerer spellcasting in addition to that ability, like the Sylph.

The argument that anybody with a high enough hide and concealment can mimic that.. well, no. Because then the Sylph, in comparison, has Hide in Plain Sight and +20 to Hide while moving (+40 while still), with hide as class skill. Sure, due to LA you can not invest up to the max in hide, which means that the bonuses are +15 and +35. Again, I argue that to get such an ability from your race is too powerful.

So yes, you may be able to get similar abilities from other sources, but is that a valid argument that Greater Invisibility at will is not a really powerful ability, if not too powerful for the Sylph? I say it is not a valid argument.

After all, is a Sylph still a viable choice if we take away Greater Invisibility at will? Why, yes it is. Sure, perhaps not as good a choice as with that ability, but still a viable choice.
And really, the Sylph would be strictly superior as the sorcerer were it not for the single level loss in caster level, which most dread. Because if it were not for that single level loss, only the loss of feats would hurt.

My main point is that the Sylph is not a good example of 'how LA should be'.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-10, 05:58 AM
I am not saying that LA races should be inferior than normal races, not at all. In fact, I do agree with Draz74's statement, LA races should ideally have been a viable and not clear cut choice. I, on the other hand, argue that the Sylph does not fall under that, because of the Greater Invisibility at will.

...

My main point is that the Sylph is not a good example of 'how LA should be'.

And my main point is that you are wrong. That Greater Invis at will is in no way a game breaking death move. There are tons of ways around it, lots of creatures that can still see and effect you, and it just generally is a useful compensation for reduced HP, reduced casting, reduced caps on skill points, ect.

There are plenty of other ways to get it because it's not something that is too powerful.

Are you claiming that the Slyph is inherently a better option then the Sorcerer? If no, then by definition the Greater Invis is not too powerful. And is the Slyph without said ability a viable option? No, not really. lower casting, fewer spells, fewer HP, lower maxes on important skills, and no defenses to speak of. A faster flight speed than a Sorcerer could get himself easily does not justify the lower casting ability.

To put it simply: You are wrong about Greater Invis at will. It does not overbalance the Slyph. It is still at best a neutral choice between the two.

Oh, and Slyph has +20 to hide? Great:

Dark Whispergnome +16 to hide, +2 dex, Hide in Plain Sight, bunch of other advantages, only +1 LA, and unlike the Slyph, it can still hide against something with true seeing or see invisibility, a very large subset.

Eldariel
2008-12-10, 06:05 AM
On that level, you can have Invis on all day anyways. It's in no ways Sylph-specific, or even special. Sylph isn't as strong as a Human, but close enough to be one of the better LA-adjusted races. Without the "casts as a character of the HD", it'd be underpowered. Some people in this thread seem to forget just how good those highest level spells are. And the Human is one level ahead in level 9. A Kobold two, but Kobolds are broken.

Zweanslord
2008-12-10, 07:04 AM
I am not claiming that the Sylph is an inherently better option than the Sorcerer.
It is, however, situationally better than the sorcerer, and situationally worse than the sorcerer. And in the situations it is better and worse, it is not just a bit better or worse, but quite better or worse.
Certainly, greater invisibility may not be game breaking, but it will very likely give the DM head aches. He will have to take it into account and tailor the campaign to it, making sure that the Sylph can not just dodge all of the defences towards the goal, while not completely negating the invisibility ability either. If you make a fault as DM, who knows what a player can do with greater invisibility for the full day? Admittedly, I am treading some thin ice here, since the same problem exists with spellcasters of that level in general.

Ultimately, I think it will likely depend on your game whether or not the Sylph is more powerful than the normal sorcerer. And in some of those games the Sylph may be much more powerful, and in others weaker. There are some amazing possibilities to be had with greater invisibility if the DM has not been careful enough. I just think the ability can be either too strong or be completely negated, depending on the game, and that is why the Sylph is not an inherently better or worse option. But it is also why I do not think Sylph is a good example of how LA should have been.

Eldariel, I admit that the high level spells are very good, hence why I do not think the Sylph is an inherently better option.
But, Eldariel, Blood_Lord, if the Sylph had the same caster level as the normal sorcerer, would the Sylph than not be the superior choice?

And about the arguments you raise about the Sylph without greater invisibility not being a viable option, Blood_Lord. Yes, they have lower casting (and thus fewer spells at levels when the normal sorcerer gains a new spell level), but as Draz74 pointed out, at ECL 14 there is not much hp difference. Sure, the Sylph have lower maxes, but they have more skill points and more, though different, class skills. Of which the stealth and perception skills nicely synergise with the invisibility. The 'no defences' you raise I do not get. What defences has the human above the Sylph then? The saves are pretty much a wash, since the Sylph has higher base reflex and fortitude, but lower will.

Also, if greater invisibility at will is so easily obtainable at that level, by plenty of other ways, then how come a Sylph needs that ability to be a viable option?

And seriously, Blood_Lord, explain to me how Dark Whispergnome is a good example of how LA should be? While +16 to hide, +2 dex and Hide in Plain Sight may not be game breaking, how are they not really powerful and probably too good?

Eldariel
2008-12-10, 07:50 AM
I wouldn't place much weight on Greater Invisibility at will on those levels. It'll save you few 4th level slots (or Ring of Invisibility, which serves the same purpose of keeping you Invisible out of combat; in combat you can spare the Greater Invisibility-spell, or simply not take offensive action), that's it. Bleh. Note that the Sylph will have notable HP loss in case Con-boosting items are used (which is usually the case on level 14); +4 Con for example gives the Human 10 HP more compared to the Sylph.

And that's without even going to HD-dependent effects like Cloudkill, Blasphemy et al. Any race with LA higher than +1 (in a buyoff game) is always iffy; 1000 XP doesn't hurt that much, but any more than that can easily put you over a level behind, and that just sucks since HD is quite an important defense in the game. That's one of the main reasons the implementation of LA sucks - it basically makes any race with LA horribly gimped in regards of survivability, because they need major Con bonuses just to make up for the HP difference, and that still doesn't help an ounce against HD-dependent effects.

Zweanslord
2008-12-10, 08:19 AM
Eldariel, I agree with you that the implementation of LA in general is bad.
Even LA 1 with buy off can lead to too powerful options though, see the dark whisper gnome.

Still, to disregard Greater Invisibility so easily.. though I can not say that I have that enough experience with those levels to agree or disagree with that. Still, I enjoyed the discussion, thanks.

Thrawn183
2008-12-10, 08:55 AM
Greater Invisibility at will is awesome. Look at the pixie.

Greater Invisibility at high level? Not so awesome.

BobVosh
2008-12-10, 11:11 AM
Greater Invisibility at will is awesome. Look at the pixie.

Greater Invisibility at high level? Not so awesome.

There is never a level it is not useful.

Also since LA buyout can be used on 3 or lower before epic...

Helps out Sylphs a bit here.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-10, 12:41 PM
I am not claiming that the Sylph is an inherently better option than the Sorcerer.
It is, however, situationally better than the sorcerer, and situationally worse than the sorcerer. And in the situations it is better and worse, it is not just a bit better or worse, but quite better or worse.

And that's exactly how it is supposed to be. They are supposed to be equal choices, not have one better then the other.


Ultimately, I think it will likely depend on your game whether or not the Sylph is more powerful than the normal sorcerer. And in some of those games the Sylph may be much more powerful, and in others weaker. There are some amazing possibilities to be had with greater invisibility if the DM has not been careful enough. I just think the ability can be either too strong or be completely negated, depending on the game, and that is why the Sylph is not an inherently better or worse option. But it is also why I do not think Sylph is a good example of how LA should have been.

Clearly you are not fit to DM a game with Greater Invis at will, but it is still easily done. It can prove advantageous sometimes, and not other. A typical battle might consist of a Dragon, and some of his kobold followers with class levels. Avoiding attack by the Kobolds is good, but the Dragon can still attack the Slyph. If you are playing with generally fun and challenging CR appropriate encounters, you will naturally present situations in which the Slyph's invis is very useful, moderately useful, and not useful at all, because the game was designed under the assumption that some characters might obtain invis at will.


Eldariel, I admit that the high level spells are very good, hence why I do not think the Sylph is an inherently better option.
But, Eldariel, Blood_Lord, if the Sylph had the same caster level as the normal sorcerer, would the Sylph than not be the superior choice?

If the Slyph cast as a Sorcerer of it's HD +5, it would be a superior choice, yes. But still the fact that PrCing out favors the human Sorcerer (because he does not have to make up HP differences from LA, because many good PrCs have skill caps) put them very close. However, I don't care about that, because I am evaluating the characters as they are. And as they are, they are perfectly balanced.


And about the arguments you raise about the Sylph without greater invisibility not being a viable option, Blood_Lord. Yes, they have lower casting (and thus fewer spells at levels when the normal sorcerer gains a new spell level), but as Draz74 pointed out, at ECL 14 there is not much hp difference. Sure, the Sylph have lower maxes, but they have more skill points and more, though different, class skills. Of which the stealth and perception skills nicely synergise with the invisibility. The 'no defences' you raise I do not get. What defences has the human above the Sylph then? The saves are pretty much a wash, since the Sylph has higher base reflex and fortitude, but lower will.

The human has more HP, the human has more spell, and the human has higher HD (also important). Additionally, he has access to PrC abilities ahead of time.


Also, if greater invisibility at will is so easily obtainable at that level, by plenty of other ways, then how come a Sylph needs that ability to be a viable option?

Because it requires an investiture of resources, and the Slyph character is incapable of investing resources while maintaining parity with the Sorcerer, with greater resources to begin with.


And seriously, Blood_Lord, explain to me how Dark Whispergnome is a good example of how LA should be? While +16 to hide, +2 dex and Hide in Plain Sight may not be game breaking, how are they not really powerful and probably too good?

It's simple: Would you choose to play said Dark Whispergnome? Yes, you might. Would you also play a regular Whispergnome with one more level of Rogue? Maybe, that's about comparable.

See, because both are equally useful, and neither is superior. That's why it's a perfect representation of LA that works, unlike all those things that don't work.

Zweanslord
2008-12-10, 02:00 PM
I am willing to admit that I am not fit to DM a game with Greater Invisibility at will. But it is difficult to imagine that every other DM out there would be able and willing to cope with it. And there are those who use modules, and not all modules will be prepared for such a character either. But you are right, ideally the Sylph's invisibility will range from very useful to not useful in a game.
Though I do think the game was more designed with the assumption that there will be characters with the ability to turn invisible, and not specifically designed with the assumption that said characters can do that with an at-will ability.

Anyway, you, Blood_Lord, and Eldariel have raised some fine arguments, and I am now willing to say you are right and agree that in a proper campaign, the choices are quite equal indeed, after which the actual choice made depends on a player's preference and goal.

After some thinking about the whisper gnome, you are right that taking that combination is not an inherently superior choice. The choice depends on the player's goal, though when the player is focussing on stealth, the dark whisper gnome will likely be the superior choice. But since not all players have that as primary goal, you are right that it makes up for a more interesting choice in general.
But still, it makes me wonder how many CR appropriate things can deal with a rogue with Hide in Plain Sight and +16 hide throughout the course of the gnome's career..

Blood_Lord
2008-12-10, 02:44 PM
But still, it makes me wonder how many CR appropriate things can deal with a rogue with Hide in Plain Sight and +16 hide throughout the course of the gnome's career..

Depends on whether or not you allow darkstalker.

Without Darkstalker:

Anything with blindsight/blinsense/ect.
Anything with True Seeing to overcome the source of concealment that the Rogue has.
Many creatures have quite high spot/listen checks, and can easily overcome the rogues hide, given the way CR tends to equal about 2-3 HD, and creatures gain extra stats at a faster rate.

Eldariel
2008-12-10, 02:55 PM
There is never a level it is not useful.

Also since LA buyout can be used on 3 or lower before epic...

Helps out Sylphs a bit here.

You can buy exactly one point of Sylph's LA off before Epic. And that's on level 15. The next buyoff would be on level 27, then 36, 42 and finally 45. So a level 45 Sylph can buy the entire LA off. I haven't heard of too many players regularly playing over level 40 games though.

Of course Greater Invisibility at will is useful, but it's minor for a spellcaster which, at that point, has a major amount of level 4 spellslots available anyways, and easily the wealth to use a Ring of Invisibility. Point is, it's not as good as e.g. the extra feat a Human gets. Also, the lack of option to PrC sucks since Sorcerer-base class is the worst in the game (literally, they get nothing beyond level 1), so you basically should always go into PrC level 6 (which is the earliest, most of them become available).


Meh, Humans are almost LA +1 in and of themselves. They're right up there with Strongheart Halflings and Whisper Gnomes.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-10, 04:04 PM
Level Adjustments are clearly calculated based on non-advanced hit dice. This should be obvious. Additional hit dice are just not equally good for all creature types. The rules may not say that you can't just add racial hit dice to monster PCs with no change in LA, but I'm pretty sure that they also don't say that you can.

More to the point, unless I'm missing something, adding hit dice to a sylph only boosts her caster level, not her spells known or spells per day. So additional Outsider hit dice do not function as an uber sylph-only PrC that grants d8 hit points, 8 + Int skill points, +1 BAB, +1/2 to all saves, and +1 level of Sorcerer casting. It grants +1 to Sorcerer caster level, but that is not the same thing.

If extra hit dice did work that way for sylphs, it would make advancing them ridiculous. Adding two outsider hit dice only boosts CR by +1, the same as for one level of Sorcerer. There's no note that extra hit dice count for more CR for a sylph. Which is further evidence that their hit dice weren't meant to work like that.

Nice bit of munchkinry, though. An inattentive DM could easily miss that.

Eldariel
2008-12-10, 04:23 PM
If extra hit dice did work that way for sylphs, it would make advancing them ridiculous. Adding two outsider hit dice only boosts CR by +1, the same as for one level of Sorcerer. There's no note that extra hit dice count for more CR for a sylph. Which is further evidence that their hit dice weren't meant to work like that.

PCs don't have access to CR system for this very reason. It's strictly a DM tool and solely a guideline; it breaks down very easily.