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Otogi
2008-12-09, 06:09 PM
I'm about ready to start a renaissance/Enlightenment/steampunk setting, and I have a few things figured out, but I need to know if I missed anything or if I should change something.

Here's what I've given my players:


The world has changed since 450 years ago. Social and philosophical change has taken the world by storm in a revolution, and with a revolution comes a new way of life. Art, science, logic and new technology has changed the rules for life, and the way to defend it.

Guns have become widely used by the people, while bows, crossbows and slings still remain popular for their spells and versatility.

Magic is still used, but the use of mechanics and engineering has made it a bit more rare.

Psionics has also taken an interest in by the new world, because while mechanics is seen as a science and magic a mystical study, psionics has become a pseudoscience with a little more reliability.

Monster are still abound the world, but have become more civilized, taking larger thinking and new technology in addition to their old ways.

Forbidden teachings such as warlock magic and pact magic have been pronounced as not being profane by the government (all the time). However, many people still haven't accepted this yet, and neither have many churches.

Belief is no longer fulfilled by gods or other powerful beings. Philosophy is a new, almost previously unexplored field for belief.

Racial harmony has come for the most part. Old prejudices still stand; Dwarves dislike eladrin, elves hate orcs, kobolds are still spiteful of gnomes, and all vice versa. However, they racism has become diminished, or become more subtle to say the least.

Class has become less important in the eyes of the law, and everyone from the poor thief to the corrupt aristocrat is prosecutable and punishable in the eyes of the law (though the higher ups can still manage to weasel out an offense if played right).


Also, if you would like to join, here's the game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98727).

Prometheus
2008-12-09, 08:28 PM
The Enlightenment was a good time in history, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't that good. Racism for example, was just getting it's start. Of course, you could always make it a utopia version of the Renaissance. Two questions in my mind:
-"Magic is still used, but the use of mechanics and engineering has made it a bit more rare." So magic doesn't mix with technology and is completely incompatible with it? You'll have to make sense of that in your setting, because to most commoners Science and Magic seem to be the same thing - forces in the universe that obey certain rules that mankind is learning to exploit.
-"Monster are still abound the world, but have become more civilized, taking larger thinking and new technology in addition to their old ways." Some "monsters" are smarter than humanoids are, wouldn't it make sense that they are the source of the technology in the first place? You'll have to establish technology as an inherently cooperative process or monsters as inherently distanced from technology.

Other than that sounds good. I say set up the pretext for religious war or for colonialism, even if it never seems to actually happen.

Otogi
2008-12-10, 05:45 AM
-"Magic is still used, but the use of mechanics and engineering has made it a bit more rare." So magic doesn't mix with technology and is completely incompatible with it? You'll have to make sense of that in your setting, because to most commoners Science and Magic seem to be the same thing - forces in the universe that obey certain rules that mankind is learning to exploit.


Magic and tech do mix in the setting, but with the ease and quickness (if lack of safety) of machines, magic study comes for the patient or the talented. Other than that sounds good. I say set up the pretext for religious war or for colonialism, even if it never seems to actually happen.

Actually, tech is a little less subtle than the work of mystic forces - a magic sword at least will have a strangely, if not unexpectedly, sharp edge, while that same sword put into subtle tech will have cables, gears and pistons sticking out. The effects, though - in this case, stabbing stuff - are the same, and the same goes for psionics.



-"Monster are still abound the world, but have become more civilized, taking larger thinking and new technology in addition to their old ways." Some "monsters" are smarter than humanoids are, wouldn't it make sense that they are the source of the technology in the first place? You'll have to establish technology as an inherently cooperative process or monsters as inherently distanced from technology.


I haven't actually thought about that. I mean, a lot of steampunk and more stable technologies probably would come from something like dragons or outsiders, wouldn't it? An interesting idea to mull over.

Alright, so those are some corrections to the old ideas, what about some new ones?

DracoDei
2008-12-10, 08:17 AM
Old stuff:
Why are you making religion in the background? Make religions still the sort of thing where gods throw rocks at the windows of atheists, but make Moradin and DEFINITELY Garl Glittergold in favor of technological progress. Make most of the rest indifferent to it, except that in vying for power they each want their own followers to have the best. Make technology no threat to them... just seems more in keeping with a blending of the two settings to me... making pacts with demons = Evil so the Evil Gods are all for it, making pacts with Fey is merely chaotic and who cares? Am I missing something here?



New stuff:
I recommend a read through of the Tales of the Questor webcomic archives (http://www.rhjunior.com/totq/00006.html) (yes, I know I skipped the first 5... that is intentional... they make the story as a whole, but only distract from the parts of it I think could help you design your setting as a whole).


This is somewhere between old and new:
Well, as I mentioned in another thread that I could dig up if you think it would help you...

Take your average Gold Dragon...
Rich? Yep.
Smart? Check.
Sound Judgement? Very much so,
Able to influence people? Check.
Patience for long term planning? See: lifespan in the thousands of years.
Taste for the finer things in life: See also Rich, but from the reverse perspective...
Assasination resistant? See also DRAGON


Lets take a Young Adult whose greed exceeds his atruism in as much as he has never given a copper to charity per se in his life, although he is socially responsible in WHO he makes is purchases from. The best thing for this guy to do is to cash in his coinage and commishion the finest artists he can find to make some really nice paintings and stuff... Ok, so hoard is now heavy on the art objects light on the coinage... other than reducing his liquidity, what is the difference you ask? The difference is very few people will pay admission to your lair to see a pile of gold and platinum... say hello to the Verogituisticia art museum, admission 2 coppers, management reserves the right to use Detect Alignment Spell-like ability without prior notice at his sole discretion... And the art he commisions is even going to be social commentary and religious stuff... because they are lawful good in addition to greedy.

Old Gold Dragon? Merchant Prince... uses wealth to make more wealth for himself while manipulating economics, politics, and culture towards what (s)he sees as the best for everyone... actually gives money away to charity (maybe only a very small percentage of earnings, maybe noticably more than that, but something), and makes long term loans to socially productive businesses, charities, etc...

Great Wyrm Gold Dragon? Rules his own country with an iron fist in a VERY velvet glove, and has other small countries on the list of people he has loaned money to.




Green Dragons? Anywhere from Ebeneezer Scrooge, to a loan-shark, to the nastiest possible interpritations of "The Prince".

Great Wyrm Green Dragon? Maybe adapt German just before WWI (NOT WWII) to the setting? My knowledge of history is shakey, but that seems about right...

Otogi
2008-12-10, 04:14 PM
Old stuff:
Why are you making religion in the background? Make religions still the sort of thing where gods throw rocks at the windows of atheists, but make Moradin and DEFINITELY Garl Glittergold in favor of technological progress. Make most of the rest indifferent to it, except that in vying for power they each want their own followers to have the best. Make technology no threat to them... just seems more in keeping with a blending of the two settings to me... making pacts with demons = Evil so the Evil Gods are all for it, making pacts with Fey is merely chaotic and who cares? Am I missing something here?



New stuff:
I recommend a read through of the Tales of the Questor webcomic archives (http://www.rhjunior.com/totq/00006.html) (yes, I know I skipped the first 5... that is intentional... they make the story as a whole, but only distract from the parts of it I think could help you design your setting as a whole).


This is somewhere between old and new:
Well, as I mentioned in another thread that I could dig up if you think it would help you...

Take your average Gold Dragon...
Rich? Yep.
Smart? Check.
Sound Judgement? Very much so,
Able to influence people? Check.
Patience for long term planning? See: lifespan in the thousands of years.
Taste for the finer things in life: See also Rich, but from the reverse perspective...
Assasination resistant? See also DRAGON


Lets take a Young Adult whose greed exceeds his atruism in as much as he has never given a copper to charity per se in his life, although he is socially responsible in WHO he makes is purchases from. The best thing for this guy to do is to cash in his coinage and commishion the finest artists he can find to make some really nice paintings and stuff... Ok, so hoard is now heavy on the art objects light on the coinage... other than reducing his liquidity, what is the difference you ask? The difference is very few people will pay admission to your lair to see a pile of gold and platinum... say hello to the Verogituisticia art museum, admission 2 coppers, management reserves the right to use Detect Alignment Spell-like ability without prior notice at his sole discretion... And the art he commisions is even going to be social commentary and religious stuff... because they are lawful good in addition to greedy.

Old Gold Dragon? Merchant Prince... uses wealth to make more wealth for himself while manipulating economics, politics, and culture towards what (s)he sees as the best for everyone... actually gives money away to charity (maybe only a very small percentage of earnings, maybe noticably more than that, but something), and makes long term loans to socially productive businesses, charities, etc...

Great Wyrm Gold Dragon? Rules his own country with an iron fist in a VERY velvet glove, and has other small countries on the list of people he has loaned money to.




Green Dragons? Anywhere from Ebeneezer Scrooge, to a loan-shark, to the nastiest possible interpritations of "The Prince".

Great Wyrm Green Dragon? Maybe adapt German just before WWI (NOT WWII) to the setting? My knowledge of history is shakey, but that seems about right...

Okay, I know it's counter productive to defend something old, but religion isn't in the background - as in the renaissance and the Enlightenment, they're still there (a bunch of faiths, actually) and atheists and agnostics are just as likely to throw rocks at stained glass windows as the church goers. The gods seem, like you said, indifferent (except for Errathis, Moradin, Kurtlmak and Garl). Technology and magic are, like I said, compatable, but hard to combine because of the different ways they are taught. As for the pacts, think of it like this: Demons = Destructive = Threat to everybody, where as Fey = Whimsical = Free = Zeitgeist, or to say the least, not poisonous to society.

I skimmed through the comic, but it didn't really strike me as renaissance at all (or at least the urban renaissance I was trying to go for). Maybe I had to take a better look at it, but I just couldn't see it.

The updated dragon personalities are interesting, though. I really liked to entertain that dragons could adapt like this, but I never put it to use.

BRC
2008-12-10, 04:24 PM
The way I see it, since Magic in DnD is presented scientifically, that is something useful that can be improved upon and become more useful through intellect, it could be treated like any other sort of science in such a setting.

Perhaps there are two schools of Magical thought, the "True Arcanist" School,which views Magic as an end in itself, and resists applications of technology. "Why build a train when we could teleport or fly" and the "Applied" school which views Magic as a means to an end that can be applied elsewhere, "Ooh, nice train, If you let me put a permanent wall of fire in there you wouldn't need all that coal"

Another_Poet
2008-12-10, 04:37 PM
I would suggest making a Philosopher base class. I would give a class ability to use diplomacy to great effect, maybe allowing the philosopher to temporarily change the alignment of (intelligent) enemies in battle.

I would also give the philosopher a gradual spell progression, with a spell list limited to spells that can be accomplished through belief or placebo effect. The philosopher doesn't actually cast magic, she/he convinces people to believe and suddenly the effect is real. This would fit best with mind control, fear, and buff/debuff type spells.

Probably have a requirement that the philospher must base their theories on either Law, Neutrality or Chaos and stay true to that alignment or lose their abilities. Probably also allow them to use knowledge checks to give allies bonuses in battle (like the Dark Knowledge ability in 3.5).

I would stat this out for you right now but it sounds like you're using 4e and I'm still a 3.5er.

ap

Otogi
2008-12-10, 04:55 PM
I would suggest making a Philosopher base class. I would give a class ability to use diplomacy to great effect, maybe allowing the philosopher to temporarily change the alignment of (intelligent) enemies in battle.

I would also give the philosopher a gradual spell progression, with a spell list limited to spells that can be accomplished through belief or placebo effect. The philosopher doesn't actually cast magic, she/he convinces people to believe and suddenly the effect is real. This would fit best with mind control, fear, and buff/debuff type spells.

Probably have a requirement that the philospher must base their theories on either Law, Neutrality or Chaos and stay true to that alignment or lose their abilities. Probably also allow them to use knowledge checks to give allies bonuses in battle (like the Dark Knowledge ability in 3.5).

I would stat this out for you right now but it sounds like you're using 4e and I'm still a 3.5er.

ap

Despite my fondness for 4e, I'm not - to little to support anything for it. The philosopher sounds like a cool prestige class, but I can't think of it as a base class because A) clerics can gain spells from philosophies and B) because the requirements are exact same as the AD&D Philosopher class, which I'm pretty sure was just a cleric without gods and the focus on good and evil.

That would make for some great intrigue BRC. It's a pretty interesting way to set up the arcane society in the campaign - split down the middle between both ideas.

Another_Poet
2008-12-10, 05:47 PM
I was actualy specifically trying to avoid the "cleric without a god" thing. it doesn't fit Classical or Enlightenment philosophers. I think it would be something like this:

d6 HD
Skills: as Bard
Proficiencies: as Wizard
Saves: as Wizard
BAB: as Wizard
Alignment: Any

Spell Progression: as Favoured Soul if you want to be generous, or as Bard if not. But spells come off of Wis rather than Cha.

Spell List: Small selection of arcane and divine spells as explained above.

Class Abilities (in addition to spells):

L1 - Talk Down (Ex)
Philosophers can attempt a Diplomacy check vs. a hostile creature. The DC is equal to 10+the creature's Wisdom score (so a creature with Wis 14 would have DC 24). If successful, the creature will stop attacking for as many rounds as the philosopher keeps talking to it. Attacking or threatening the creature breaks the effect. This ability only works on a creature who could normally be affected by a Diplomacy roll. If a Talk Down attempt fails against a creature, that creature is immune for 24 hrs. Only onecreature can be affected at a time.

L3 - Dark Knowledge +1

L5 - Talk Up (Ex)
As Talk Down, but if the Philosopher beats the DC by 5 or more the creature's alignment temporarily changes to whatever alignment the Philosopher desires. When the philosopher stops talking, the creature may make a Will Save to return to its previous alignment. If this save ails it may try again each day, with a cumulative +1 bonus to its save each day.

L7 - Dark Knowledge +2

L9 - Talk Away (Ex)
As Talk Down, but if the Philosopher beats the DC by 10 or more he can use the ability to drive an Outsider off of the Material Plane. The Outsider is banished for 24 hours. After that period it may come back, but only if it has the means to do so on its own. This cannot be used in conjunction with Talk Up.

L11 - Bestow Intelligence (Su)
Once per day the Philosopher may raise the intelligence score of any un-intelligent creature that is not immune to mind-affecting effects. The creature must have a starting Intellience score of 5 or lower and the Philosopher must touch the creature to Bestow Intelligence. The Philosopher makes a special level check (1d20+Philosopher Level). Divide the result in half to determine the creature's new intelligence score. The creature retains this new score for a number of hours equal to the Philosopher's level, to a maximum of 24 hours.

The newly educated creature immediately gains the ability to reason and think as any other creature of its new intelligence level. It also gaint the ability to communicate, though its speech is halting and its vocabulary limited because language is new to it. If the creature is incapable of producing the sounds used in normal languages, it communicates with gestures or grunts which only the Philosopher can understand.

This new intelligence does not change the creature's attitude toward the Philosopher.

L13 - Dark Knowledge +3

L15 - Create Intelligence
As bestow Intelligence, but the Philosopher may affect one object per day instead of one creature per day. The object becomes intelligent and gains the ability to speak, even if it cannot normally move or make noises. It does not gain a mouth or any other anatomy and the speech seems to come out of thin air. The object cannot move like an animated object, but it can hamper anyone who tries to use it as a normal object (imparting a -4 penalty on whatever roll they are trying to use it for). It also gains complete memory of where it has been since it was first created, and can answer questions about anything it has experienced, though it may choose not to.

An object typically starts with an impartial attitude toward the philosopher.

L17 - ?????

L20 - ?????

Otogi
2008-12-10, 05:53 PM
I've got to say, with what you come up with and my rules about homerules, I really like how this has come along. But what about a name like Polymath instead of philosopher? Not going to change the class and it might be inappropriate, but the idea of a "renaissance man" does fit the setting. Since the highest levels are a bit of a mystery right now, I still have a perchance toward making it a prestige class.

BRC
2008-12-10, 06:31 PM
Concernin the Two philosophies of magic, a quick write-up
Gestaltist
Two men pushing together can move a stone neither could budge themselves. Two musicians can make a song twice as beutiful as what they could achieve alone. Two Sciences can together bring us wonders the likes of which either could not dream of.
The Gestalitst School of thought is simple. Combine magical knowledge with new developments in the sciences to further both. Gestaltists tend to be younger, and are often found working in teams with one Wizard or Sorceror and one engineer or other scientist, although some schools have appeared teaching students both Magic and Technology, allowing them to work without a partner. Gestaltists tend to be very curious, always considering the mundane possibilities of magic. At best, Gestaltists are seeking ways to improve life the world over, at worst, they are simply seeking more power for themselves. Gestaltists often portray Classicists as old fools in denial about the potential other Sciences hold.
Potential Mechanical Benefits
The Gestaltist theory may allow the creation of combined magic/scientific items, enhanced potions, magically-enhanced steam engines, ect. They may also allow things once done magically to be done cheaper and easier (Improved forging techniques can make a sword that needs less expensive magical regents to make equivilant to a +1 sword)
Classical
"Why should I spend years in a lab attempting to harness with wood and metal that which I have already harnessed with my mind?"
The Classical School of magicial though arose as a response to the Gestaltists, it's guiding principle is that Magic has worked fine for hundred of years, why should they start changing things now. Classicist mages tend to be older. Most of them are merely of the opinion that non-magical sciences cannot hope to achieve or surpass what magic can already do, and are simply sad to see so many bright minds wasting their time in pointless endevors. Some of them, however, are afraid that the Gestaltists will surpass them, or allow others to do and experience things that were once the soul domain of Mages and those they worked for (Like quick travel, or mass manufacturing, or medicine), thus threatening the power they hold in society. Classicists often portray Gestaltists as nieve idiots who get excited over things pure magic could achieve simply.
Oddly Enough, as Gestalt technology started gaining ground on conventional magic, more magical research was conducted in order to widen the gap and keep conventional magic in the news, so the understanding and utility of magic has increased and improved compared to a standard DnD Setting.
Potential Mechanical Benefits
Much of the magical establishment is Classicist, so a Classicist has accsess to a wider base of resources. They are more likely to recieve help from magical universities, or get discounts on scrolls and spellbooks. Certain new spells may only be available to Classicists.

Sorry for the bad grammer and spelling.

Otogi
2008-12-10, 07:42 PM
Wow, that's actually rather interesting. Sort of a new age vs. conservative kind of thing. The mechanical differences are nice, little crunch packages and how both have positive and negative sides to them. I can just imagine the oddles of political cartoons/prints/illusions. I wish I could actually implement them - it's late in the game and I've already made a few late add-ons. The game also has mechanical creation (sort of like magic or psionic items, but with steampunk and gearpunk elements), including a non-magic version of Brew Potion (Brew Chemicals). There's also dispel tech spells, though I forgot to put them in. How do you think Tech and Psionics would work? Tech on the planes?

BRC
2008-12-10, 07:52 PM
Wow, that's actually rather interesting. Sort of a new age vs. conservative kind of thing. The mechanical differences are nice, little crunch packages and how both have positive and negative sides to them. I can just imagine the oddles of political cartoons/prints/illusions. I wish I could actually implement them - it's late in the game and I've already made a few late add-ons. The game also has mechanical creation (sort of like magic or psionic items, but with steampunk and gearpunk elements), including a non-magic version of Brew Potion (Brew Chemicals). There's also dispel tech spells, though I forgot to put them in. How do you think Tech and Psionics would work? Tech on the planes?

Tech an Psionics would probably fall into similar schools. Psionics is just a different Magic system that's been refluffed.

Speaking of Fluff, the Gestalt vs Classical thing is mostly fluff anyway, so it would be easy enough to implement, you don't need any mechanical changes if you dont't want them. Classical mage is casting a Fireball, Gestalt mage is using a magically-enhanced explosive. Just refluff where appropriate, A +1 sword could either be chock-full of magic, or it could be made with better forging techniques and treated with chemicals. Maybe the Shocking mace just has a magically-enhanced battery inside it. Just identify whether NPC mages are Classical, Gestaltist, or Neither and use that to guide social interactions. Besides, Gestalt Magic probably dosn't have much direct impact on Adventurers, it's more about people tinkering in workshops making new treatments and using magic to help the textile industry than killing things for money. For stuff like that you would have to be a pretty hardcore Gestaltist to use that instead of classical magic. You can still believe in the Gestaltist ideas though, "Combining Magic and Technology is the way to go, but in the meantime the old fasioned way will keep me alive. No offense, but I'll stick with Magic Missle"

Tech on the planes would just depend on how the physics of a given plane worked.

Edit: Yeah, I tried to make the descriptions even-handed towrds each philosophy, rather than make it the "Bright Young Gestaltists versus the stagnent luddite Classicists" or the "Sensible, intelligent Classicists versus the silly Gestaltists"

Otogi
2008-12-10, 08:54 PM
Exactly, that's what I was thinking about - how does psionics and tech do when they meet?

That's the stuff I want to hear, though. I have this idea about a sort of "power war", where magic, psi and science are fighting a subtle war for social, economic, military, etc. over all, control war with various unoffical and even unrealized factions. So adventurers may find more technologically advanced places of magic, but it's also possibly to find some places running on pure mystical energies. This includes places like temples, ruins and libraries.

Ah, but wait! Libraries can hold psionic knowledge as well and ruins can hold strange constructs that don't run on mystical energies, but on electricity and oil, maybe even atomic energies. Similarly, some workshops don't get their equipment and power from engineers, but from mages. I never imagined so much conflict! Think about it - order vs. freedom, old ways vs. new ideas, philosophy vs. religion, race vs. race, class vs. class, magic, psionics and technology in an all out brawl, and that doesn't even cover the smaller conflicts inside each side.

Otogi
2008-12-10, 10:36 PM
Some food for thought. Races have specialties toward magic right (Eladrin are the superb wizards, dwarves have a perchance for clerical magic and gnomes illusion), so doesn't it make sense that each race would be adapt at a particular arts and science?

Here's a list that I've compiled of races that pioneered a partiuclar field of aesthetics and study:

Dragonborn - Psychology, Sociology, Theater
Dwarves - Architecture, Physics, Economics, Sculpting
Elves - Earth & Environmental Science, Geography, Dancing
Eladrin - Astrology, Cognition, Education, Painting
Gnomes - Mathematics, Engineering, Chemistry, Three-Dimensional art forms (Illusions are popular, but not the sole form)
Halflings - Medicine, Life Science, Biology, Music
Humans, Half-elves, Half-orcs - Philosophy, Systematics, Linguistics, Poetry
Goblins and Orcs - Military Sciences, Storytelling

DracoDei
2008-12-11, 10:11 AM
I skimmed through the comic, but it didn't really strike me as renaissance at all (or at least the urban renaissance I was trying to go for). Maybe I had to take a better look at it, but I just couldn't see it.

Ah... if you want URBAN then you want the section(s) that occur in Sanctuary City... let me list out a few highlights, most of which show up in that location:

Long distance transportation of people and goods is often by hydrogen zeppelin
It turns out that Quentin's sword contains the seeds of vaccuum tube (if not transistor or integrated circuit) level logic gates... yes, they don't even have the steam engine on any large scale, and they just started the electronic revolution.
The Lux Font... a bunch of massive waterwheels providing the juice to the ley lines that provide arcane power to all of the Seven Villages, and which the luftships ride on like train tracks (or maybe drive belts they latch onto).
Did you notice the Winchester Repeater level gun the biggest warrior Rac Conan Diamh had in the fight against the Gator-taurs? He has to have someone to stand back-to-back to him to brace him so he doesn't go flying backwards, but that is basically the ONLY reason such weapons are not more common.
Kestral ends up at artificer college... IE engineering school that also teaches Lux manipulation.
They have discovered DNA... which probably explains the gator-taurs, and DEFINITELY explains the rat-wights.
Democracy... 'nuff said.

Another_Poet
2008-12-11, 10:40 AM
I've got to say, with what you come up with and my rules about homerules, I really like how this has come along. But what about a name like Polymath instead of philosopher?

Well, since I have a degree in philosophy, I only think it's cool if they are called philosophers :P

But sure, call it whatever you want in your setting. :)



Not going to change the class and it might be inappropriate, but the idea of a "renaissance man" does fit the setting. Since the highest levels are a bit of a mystery right now, I still have a perchance toward making it a prestige class.

You can change it and use/not use any part of it as you desire in your setting. I'm just throwing ideas out there. If you made it a prestige class, it would probably have to be a full 10-levels to accomodate all the abilities listed above. And if you're getting one of those abilities per level it's probably fair to drop the spell progression, though personally I wouldn't want to play this class unless I get some magic too, because frankly its abilities (though cool) are not going to shine in combat, which is what most D&D adventures are all about.

On the other hand the philosopher abilities would do well in certain campaigns, like Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, where most of the enemies are either intelligent cultists (can be Talked Down) or Outsiders (can be Talked Away).

Unrelated: if you really want to make it a Renaissance setting I'd leave out the zeppelins. They sometimes used balloons on ropes to do military observation in the Renaissance, but that was the height of their aircraft. One thing you could do that would be very period-appropriate would be to have a standing reward of 10,000 gp from the king for the first person or team to build an aircraft that can cross the such-and-such river. For humour, have an ill-conceived and odd-looking airship crash into or near town every couple of sessions as people try and fail to win the prize.

My personal favourite line of reasoning: if hydrogen is lighter than air, and hot air is lighter than cold air.... surely HOT HYDROGEN IS THE LIGHTEST THING OF ALL!!!! :smallbiggrin:

ap

Otogi
2008-12-11, 11:26 AM
Hehe, alright. Ability with spells prestige class sounds like a cool idea. Awesome ideas, too.

The idea on the zepplins make sense, but it seems that that D&D had them way before the reanissance after seeing the Arms and Equipment guide (even submarrines, too!). I really like the idea of that story, though. But what if it was more like inventors trying to create new, personal flying devices and test it by jumping off a high tower? A bit dark, but it fits the steampunk attitude that it also has.

BRC
2008-12-11, 11:34 AM
Hehe, alright. Ability with spells prestige class sounds like a cool idea. Awesome ideas, too.

The idea on the zepplins make sense, but it seems that that D&D had them way before the reanissance after seeing the Arms and Equipment guide (even submarrines, too!). I really like the idea of that story, though. But what if it was more like inventors trying to create new, personal flying devices and test it by jumping off a high tower? A bit dark, but it fits the steampunk attitude that it also has.

You seem to believe that there is a "DnD Setting"
DnD is like a Resturant, you can order an entre (Eberron, Farun), or you can just use the Buffet (A homebrew setting with no mechanical changes), the point is, just because it's in a book, dosn't mean you need to use it. So you want zepplins to be in the early stages of development, and only a crazy person would ride one, Go right ahead. Just because they put the stats for a zepplin the in Arms and Equipment to go in a medival settind, dosn't mean you need to stick zepplins in your medival DnD setting.

Otogi
2008-12-11, 12:04 PM
You seem to believe that there is a "DnD Setting"
DnD is like a Resturant, you can order an entre (Eberron, Farun), or you can just use the Buffet (A homebrew setting with no mechanical changes), the point is, just because it's in a book, dosn't mean you need to use it. So you want zepplins to be in the early stages of development, and only a crazy person would ride one, Go right ahead. Just because they put the stats for a zepplin the in Arms and Equipment to go in a medival settind, dosn't mean you need to stick zepplins in your medival DnD setting.

Which I guess makes kind of makes 4th edition a hotdog stand (bee-dum-tish). You're right, though, D&D is different to every game. It just seemed to me, though, that if they give stats to a zeppelin 400 years before the setting and they worked, they would at least work, if not become more popular (I'm a bit of a fan of Airborn, wouldn't ya know).

(I wish to appologize to all hot dog vendors out there who were offended by my post. I know being a cullinary street merchant can be a difficult and hard on you, and I know you sell other great things like soft drinks, shikababs, pretzels and the occaional yet delicious curry dish and speaking as a former New York resisdent that you're work and food are highly valued to the community that they serve.)

BRC
2008-12-11, 12:13 PM
Which I guess makes kind of makes 4th edition a hotdog stand (bee-dum-tish). You're right, though, D&D is different to every game. It just seemed to me, though, that if they give stats to a zeppelin 400 years before the setting and they worked, they would at least work, if not become more popular (I'm a bit of a fan of Airborn, wouldn't ya know).

(I wish to appologize to all hot dog vendors out there who were offended by my post. I know being a cullinary street merchant can be a difficult and hard on you, and I know you sell other great things like soft drinks, shikababs, pretzels and the occaional yet delicious curry dish and speaking as a former New York resisdent that you're work and food are highly valued to the community that they serve.)

Yes, but "They" also forget to put in that you can't move while dead, "They" seem to think that an average person could move 120 feet in six seconds, that Crossbows are no better than Shortbows for piercing armor, that a person could survive being shot point-blank with a ballista, that it's just as easy to use a longbow against a target 10 feet away as it is against a target 100 feet away, that grapple rules are usuable, and many other things.

Otogi
2008-12-11, 12:31 PM
The hot dog vendors?

Another_Poet
2008-12-11, 12:40 PM
Here's my take on tech level.

Tech level has nothing to do with what works. Nuclear fission worked in 3000 BC, but they didn't build any nuclear plants. Airships, magical and mundane, work in D&D.... but did people build them? Did they even think of them?

Tech level has to do with two things in real life: did you think of it, and did you have a use for it. Nobody thought of running electrical currents through filaments in a glass vaccuum (light bulb) until they thought of running electrical currents through something in the first place (electrical wires) and they didn't think of that till they thought of examining the properties of that zappy stuff that shoots out of the sky during rainstorms.

On the other hand ancient Romans thought of the stream engine and used them as amusing parlour gags that spun around and around with no purpose. They built steam engines in ancient Rome. But they never built trains! Why? Because they already had slaves to carry heavy things, and good roads to ride on. There was no use for a device that saves on labour, because Rome had nearly unlimited slave labour.

So, in real life you need people to think of something and have a use for it before it gets invented. In games, you have a third criteria: does it enrich the game?

So you have to ask yourself whether dirigibles enrich your setting. Every non-renaissance element you include makes it less of a "renaissance" setting, and dirigibles are such an element. But so are wands, barbarians, zombies, etc etc etc. You have to choose how much you let in, and what feels right.

If you don't have dirigibles, then you just need a convincing reason why people either didn't think of it or had no use for it. That could be: lack of funding, generally flat and navigable terrain, intense hurricane-like winds most of the year (would destroy airships), evil dragon overlords who destroy any human attempt at flight, lack of helium or hydrogen in significant amounts in the world, terrible historic incident involving an attempted airship that made the whole field of research taboo, etc etc.

If you do have dirigibles, then you just need to make them feel as renaissancey as possible.

What I would suggest is have some practical limits to it. A mundane airship is nearly impossible with Renaissance tech, and putting a steam engine on board would be disastrous (and weigh too much). Actual Renaissance attempts involved single-seat gondolas with hand-driven propeller or giant oars with sailcloth on them (which didn't work). Or they were completely uncontrolled and just followed the wind. To magic this up:

-Either a magical source of flight, such as permanent levitation, or magical protections on the envelope to keep it from leaking/burning

-Magical source of propulsion

-Magical protection from strong winds that will rip a dirigible in half

-Permanency on all of the above

-Some kind of controls people can use to steer it

-Some kind of anti-dispel protection

These all seem obvious to us, but remember that this is back when scientists still thought you could suck the air out of copper spheres and they'd be light enough to act as balloons and lift a ship. Yep, for real. Some of the various contenders in the Airship Contest might have great ideas for one or two of the above, but thinking of all of them? And woe to the fool who gets all of them except the last one, and as he is nearly done with his triumphant flight one of his rivals discreetly Dispels his whole airship. Tragic way to die, and his ship design wil never be trusted by anyone.

Otogi
2008-12-11, 01:15 PM
Isn't it possible to include non-renaissance technology and still have a renaissance feel to the game? I mean, the renaissance felt sort of more like the evolution of Europe into a more cultured, social place with the introduction of science and renewed interest in thought.

I like what you said about the limiting though. I plan to only include one zeppelin, a popular, well guarded one that all classes can enjoy, but only one. The players can create another, but why spend the 30,000 GP when you can just ride one for 10? Drigibles are cheaper to make and ride, and more numerous, but often private and hard to navigate around the city.

However, now that I look at what I made, I believe that I made something more akin to, say, the Enlightement (just a little bit after the renaissance) where free thought reigned supreme with reason and technology, art and secular philosophy was already there and still advancing, instead of just starting out.

charl
2008-12-11, 02:17 PM
Great Wyrm Green Dragon? Maybe adapt German just before WWI (NOT WWII) to the setting? My knowledge of history is shakey, but that seems about right...

No. Just no. The German empire of WW1 wasn't that much better or worse than the British empire of the same war. Not to talk about other entente nations like Russia, Belgium and Japan who were known for human atrocities.

Otogi
2008-12-11, 02:26 PM
No. Just no. The German empire of WW1 wasn't that much better or worse than the British empire of the same war. Not to talk about other entente nations like Russia, Belgium and Japan who were known for human atrocities.

Hey, nobody's attacking anybody. That wasn't meant for a flame, just a thought.

Do you mind helping out, then?

Another_Poet
2008-12-11, 03:45 PM
Isn't it possible to include non-renaissance technology and still have a renaissance feel to the game?

Absolutely! My point isn't that you can't do it, just that each non-renaissance (or non-Enlightenment) element that you add makes it a little harder. You just have to choose the right ones.



I like what you said about the limiting though. I plan to only include one zeppelin, a popular, well guarded one that all classes can enjoy, but only one. The players can create another, but why spend the 30,000 GP when you can just ride one for 10? Drigibles are cheaper to make and ride, and more numerous, but often private and hard to navigate around the city.

I'm not sure how you're using the term "dirigible." It sounds like you're using it separate from "zeppelin" but a Zeppelin is a type of dirigible.

There are three types of real-world airships:
Non-rigid airship or "blimp" - easy to build, slow, easily sent off course by moderate winds, destroyed in storms.
1700's version (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/2/U/Blanchard_Balloon.jpg)
1907 version (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/1/H/balloonrace.jpg)


Semi-rigid dirigible - has a wooden (nowadays metal or composite) spine inside the envelope, can resist winds a little better, still usually destroyed in storms.
1800's version (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/3/U/Dirigible.jpg)
1908 version (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/4/U/Baldwin_Dirigible.jpg)

rigid dirigible or rigid airship - the entire envelope has a wooden/metal/composite frame inside of it to hold its shape (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/D/J/zeppelin.gif). Impervious to moderate winds, can still be buffeted in high winds or cracked open (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h98000/h98998.jpg) (not necessarily destroyed) in intense storms. Zeppelin is (was) a brand of rigid dirigible - like Coke is a brand of cola. Many other companies besides Zeppelin made these, but the WWI bombers (http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/midnight.html)and most of the transoceanic airships (http://www.nlhs.com/images/hindenburg/big_hindenburg_construction_with_ring.jpg) were Zeppelin-built. The US Navy used one of these as an aircraft carrier (http://www.dailyaviator.com/?p=83) that could launch and retrieve 8 biplanes at a time. For real.

For loads of pictures you might check out this site (http://www.earlyaviator.com/archive3.htm)

Some of the more fun early attempts:
http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/5/U/airship_23.jpg
http://bp3.blogger.com/_Ost45tmkvuk/R82lzHH0hYI/AAAAAAAAAjM/Xxg91cVljz0/s1600-h/santos+2.jpg
http://www.first-to-fly.com/History%20Images/Airship_1817_c.jpg
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/object_images/535x535/10237471.jpg
Very early one (http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/Montgolfier_brothers_balloon_Paris_crowd.jpg)
Same one (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/top10/montgolfier.jpg)

(all the pictures linked above are actual dirigible attempts)

Anyway now that I look back at the dates on all these they are all 1700s or laters. Some of the balloons may have been late 1600s.

I gather that what you mean is you want one huge, transcontinental airship. Small one-person blimps also exist, but only one big passenger liner.

I like that. It does raise one question. How is it only 10 gp to ride that thing? Only one in the world, height of technology and fashion.... even when there were 30 or so real-world dirigible liners crossing the Atlantic and going all over Europe and Russia, only the well to do could afford it.

All just thoughts. I like where you're going.

DracoDei
2008-12-11, 04:04 PM
To save you a little time hunting for when things start to "get good" for you HERE (http://www.rhjunior.com/totq/00078.html) is where we first see a luftship that the main character is about to board (destination: Sanctuary City). Some of its functionality is explained in the next two strips (the author actually had some calculations in the forums at one time, but those got wiped out in one of the forum crashes over there).

Landing is HERE (http://www.rhjunior.com/totq/00083.html).

First peek inside the Artificer's College starts HERE (http://www.rhjunior.com/totq/00086.html).

Tell me if you need more specific links within the greater story-line...

charl
2008-12-11, 04:05 PM
Hey, nobody's attacking anybody. That wasn't meant for a flame, just a thought.

Do you mind helping out, then?

Absolutely. Depending on how advanced you want your civilization I could see many of the standard fantasy races being put to work as specialists in different fields.

Halflings and gnomes and other similarly small races would be great in factories (historically children and small women were favoured in English factories in the early 1800s due to their small size). Also, small fingers and sharp eye sight is great for fine work, making clockwork (gnome clock makers sound fun?), jewellery and precision carpentry.

Dwarves and other sturdy races could similarly be very sought after for heavy lifting, mining and other tough jobs. If you go with the classic dwarven metalworking speciality, then the dwarves would find themselves being very, very rich from muskets and on into the industrial revolution.

Although, since this is the renaissance era, you'd expect to see more and more people going outside their traditional roles in society. Even if it's as simple as "I don't have to be blacksmith even if my father was". So start subverting your fantasy racial stereotypes.

I'd also like to see semaphores (look it up on wikipedia), because I've read Terry Pratchett's Going Postal and now I love semaphores.

Otogi
2008-12-11, 04:09 PM
Absolutely! My point isn't that you can't do it, just that each non-renaissance (or non-Enlightenment) element that you add makes it a little harder. You just have to choose the right ones.



I'm not sure how you're using the term "dirigible." It sounds like you're using it separate from "zeppelin" but a Zeppelin is a type of dirigible.

There are three types of real-world airships:
Non-rigid airship or "blimp" - easy to build, slow, easily sent off course by moderate winds, destroyed in storms.
1700's version (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/2/U/Blanchard_Balloon.jpg)
1907 version (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/1/H/balloonrace.jpg)


Semi-rigid dirigible - has a wooden (nowadays metal or composite) spine inside the envelope, can resist winds a little better, still usually destroyed in storms.
1800's version (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/3/U/Dirigible.jpg)
1908 version (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/4/U/Baldwin_Dirigible.jpg)

rigid dirigible or rigid airship - the entire envelope has a wooden/metal/composite frame inside of it to hold its shape (http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/D/J/zeppelin.gif). Impervious to moderate winds, can still be buffeted in high winds or cracked open (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h98000/h98998.jpg) (not necessarily destroyed) in intense storms. Zeppelin is (was) a brand of rigid dirigible - like Coke is a brand of cola. Many other companies besides Zeppelin made these, but the WWI bombers (http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/midnight.html)and most of the transoceanic airships (http://www.nlhs.com/images/hindenburg/big_hindenburg_construction_with_ring.jpg) were Zeppelin-built. The US Navy used one of these as an aircraft carrier (http://www.dailyaviator.com/?p=83) that could launch and retrieve 8 biplanes at a time. For real.

For loads of pictures you might check out this site (http://www.earlyaviator.com/archive3.htm)

Some of the more fun early attempts:
http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/5/U/airship_23.jpg
http://bp3.blogger.com/_Ost45tmkvuk/R82lzHH0hYI/AAAAAAAAAjM/Xxg91cVljz0/s1600-h/santos+2.jpg
http://www.first-to-fly.com/History%20Images/Airship_1817_c.jpg
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/object_images/535x535/10237471.jpg
Very early one (http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/Montgolfier_brothers_balloon_Paris_crowd.jpg)
Same one (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/top10/montgolfier.jpg)

(all the pictures linked above are actual dirigible attempts)

Anyway now that I look back at the dates on all these they are all 1700s or laters. Some of the balloons may have been late 1600s.

I gather that what you mean is you want one huge, transcontinental airship. Small one-person blimps also exist, but only one big passenger liner.

I like that. It does raise one question. How is it only 10 gp to ride that thing? Only one in the world, height of technology and fashion.... even when there were 30 or so real-world dirigible liners crossing the Atlantic and going all over Europe and Russia, only the well to do could afford it.

All just thoughts. I like where you're going.

Thanks for the info, it'll help me figure out making technology without becoming to steampunk at somewhat realistic.

I'm glad it seems more reasonable. Hopefully it's going to seem more exciting to have.

The price is small because of the traffic they get. It's actually rather big when you think about it; with the cost of food and other necessities, it's going to take at least 10 years before a commoner could even take one trip on that thing. It's mainly for the high and middle class crowd. I could raise it to 30 or even 100 and bust the bullocks of the citizens, but I think it's a good price. You're right about the dirigible, it is just a name, but for right now it counts as a smaller zeppelin. There are a bunch of those (only one can actually go through the city), but the zeppelins are built tougher than them and even though there are probably a dozen zeppelins owned by different countries, there's one that is a shot above the rest.

charl
2008-12-11, 04:18 PM
If you haven't already, look at Leonardo Da Vinci's illustrations. He thought up a lot of cool stuff. The danger is that if you include too much of this type of stuff you run the danger of turning the setting into clockpunk (which may or may not be a bad thing).

Another_Poet
2008-12-11, 04:27 PM
I think it would be cool to come up with a name for the company that makes all these smaller digiribles.

Dirst pops to mind, for some reason.

Then you don't have to call them zeppelins anymore, and everyone knows what you're talking about.

"We'll never get across town in time to stop them."

"We will if we highjack a Dirst!"

Dirst could be the name of the family that founded the company, but now be used to refer to the ships themselves, just like Zeppelins IRL.

ap

Otogi
2008-12-11, 04:34 PM
Thanks for some ideas, Charl. I know I said it, but it's not set jobs and specializations - just what the race as a whole has accomplished in the chosen field. Just because the goblins and orcs perfercted the rifle and explosives, doesn't mean the hobogoblin down the street isn't going to become a composer. His family and race might be disappointed, others might think him strange and his music would be very angry and clean cut, he's still a composer. I always loved making guys like warforged warlocks and elf barbarians, going to the unconventional for characters.

BRC
2008-12-11, 04:41 PM
Thanks for some ideas, Charl. I know I said it, but it's not set jobs and specializations - just what the race as a whole has accomplished in the chosen field. Just because the goblins and orcs perfercted the rifle and explosives, doesn't mean the hobogoblin down the street isn't going to become a composer. His family and race might be disappointed, others might think him strange and his music would be very angry and clean cut, he's still a composer. I always loved making guys like warforged warlocks and elf barbarians, going to the unconventional for characters.
Personally, I say that if two groups spend long enough interacting with each other in a non-hostile manner, they will form one culture. Or, another way to say it would be, If Humans and Goblins living in the same valley stopped killing each other, eventually they may merge to form a single culture, there would be a "Human" subculture and a "Goblin" subculture, but they would be one culture.

Currently, I'm running an industrial-revolution esque setting, Kobolds, Goblinoids, and Orcs work in the coal mines where their darkvision and strength or Nibleness is appreciated. Hobogoblins lawful tendancies cause them to form Labor Unions and Mafias. A Major NPC is an ogre mafia don.
Esentially, if you get a Hobgoblin out of their Milliteristic culture, they are no more or less likely to become a composer than a human.

DracoDei
2008-12-11, 04:49 PM
Well, that might depend to a DEGREE on what you decide the nature vs nurture mix is for alignments (IE what your take on "Always Chaotic Evil" is... personally I actually like it in its place).

Otogi
2008-12-11, 05:36 PM
It's actually an interesting concept to explore (at least to psychologists). Is this new world, is it nature or nurture that has sway?

DracoDei
2008-12-11, 05:52 PM
Well, it probably varies by race when it comes to alignment... Going in ROUGH tiers from "nature" to "nuture" and picking only a few examples you would have:
-Humans
-Elves and Dwarves
-Most True Dragons
-Outsiders with the word "Always" appearing in the alignment section.