PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Bard help



weenie
2008-12-09, 07:14 PM
I'm making a Gnome bard and I realized he isn't much good once he runs out of spells. And since he doesn't have that much spells to begin with, that is a bit of an issue. Here are the stats:

Gnome Bard 6

Str 6, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 19(34 point buy)

Feats: Spellcasting prodigy(+1 save DCs), two remaining

I've got 10k GP to spend and have access to pretty much all 3.5 WotC material. Abilities can also be switched around if need be. Oh, and I'm expecting to play till level 12 or so and what I'm looking for is something useful to do between casting spells in combat. Any help would be appreciated.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-09, 07:26 PM
Find the WotC bard handbook.

Keld Denar
2008-12-09, 07:45 PM
Don't neglect your Inspire Courage ability. Its aguably one of the strongest combat abilities you have. With it, you can becomes a more powerful and fierce warrior than most fighters, and any fighters around you become even more powerful. It may not look like much, but there are a TON of abilities out there that can increase it. For example:

Song of the Heart [Feat] from the Ebberon Campaign Setting, increase bonus by +1.
Inspirational Boost [Spell] from Spell Compendium. Cast as a swift action, then start Inspire Courage to get +1 to it.
Badge of Valor [Item] from Magic Item Compendium. Use it as an immediate action during an Inspire Courage song to get +1 to it.
Masterwork Lute [Item] I think this is in Complete Scoundrel, gives +1 to Inspire Courage
Vest of Legends [Item] from DMGII, increases your effective bard level by 5. This increases your base IC level, but remember, there is not progression past level 20. Great if you are lowish level or multiclass a lot.

So, if you had the feat Song of the Heart, and a Vest of Legends, your base IC would be +2 (as an 11th level Bard) +1 for Song, or +3 total. If you cast Insp Boost before starting a song, you would inspire a +4, and if you then activated your Badge of Valor after you start to sing, it would bump to +5. Giving all of your allies +5 to hit and +5 to damage is pretty much amazing at your level.

If you want to mix it up a bit, the feat Dragonfire Inspiration is fun to play with. It changes your +x/+x Inspire Courage into a +xd6 bonus fire damage. If you take the advice above, that would mean you and all of your allies don't get any extra chance to hit, but if they do, you all get +5d6 damage on EVERY HIT. This is awesome.

Now, what if you don't ever want to lose this bonus? Well, you can normally continue an Inspire Courage as long as you want. It doesn't take any actions to maintain, although you specifically can't cast any spells while doing it. UNLESS, you take the feat Melodic Casting. This feat allows you to keep Inspiring while casting spells. Now you shouldn't have to stop IC any time, unless you want to chat with someone or want to be sneaky.

Eldariel
2008-12-10, 06:07 AM
As a bonus, Song of the Heart, Vest of Legends and Words of Creation buff your other abilities too. Anyways, a Bard can do a number of things besides magic:
Sing
Fight
Skillmonkey
Heal
Use Songs to apply Persistent Spell on your buffs.

and a number of other things. It's just a matter of deciding what you want to focus on.

BardicDuelist
2008-12-10, 07:05 AM
Doomspeak from Champions of Ruin. It gives your opponent -10 to nearly everything he'd have to roll for for one round and uses bardic music. If you do a search, you can probably find the entire feat described on this board.

Dragonfire Inspiration and Snowflake Wardance are oft suggested bard feats, but I never seem to have room for them.

What PrCs (if any) are you planning on heading toward? Lyric Thaumaturge and Sublime Chord seem right up your alley. You could tack on Virtuoso to get the epic bard feel going at around 14th level.

Enchanting Song and Misleading Song aren't BAD, but aren't that great either.

Metamagic music is like a non-cheesy Divine Metamagic and is a good idea with persistent spell.

weenie
2008-12-10, 07:17 AM
Has anyone ever tried taking Arcane Disciple(Fire) and the fiery burst reserve feat? I know reserve feats aren't a good idea usually, but in this case I think It may just help my bard out a bit.

I'm not planning on taking PrCs for this character.

jcsw
2008-12-10, 07:32 AM
Has anyone ever tried taking Arcane Disciple(Fire) and the fiery burst reserve feat?

In general they're decent in certain builds, bard is not one of them.
Not only does bard have slower spellcasting progression, meaning they have less spell-levels to power fiery burst, they also have less fire spells.

Eldariel
2008-12-10, 07:36 AM
Indeed, most importantly, Bard will never have very high spell-level for Fiery Burst so you'll be doing very little with it. If a Bard wishes to focus on spellcasting, Sublime Chord and Metamagic Song are the way. But that mostly kicks in later on. Right now, you ought to either focus on improving your fighting, or your singing, preferably both. Level 6 means you've got 6 Bardic Music uses - that means 6 encounters you can grant the entire party insane bonuses to everything with Inspire Courage (the song you should mostly be using at this point).

weenie
2008-12-10, 12:18 PM
I know it is a weak option, but I'd only lose two feats and I can take Flaws, so that's not an issue. I'm not trying to center my whole build around it, it's just something I could use to kill a few mooks while inspiring courage.. It's not going to be a high powered campaign anyway, so I was really only looking for some gashing flaws.

Darrin
2008-12-10, 12:43 PM
Has anyone ever tried taking Arcane Disciple(Fire) and the fiery burst reserve feat? I know reserve feats aren't a good idea usually, but in this case I think It may just help my bard out a bit.

I'm not planning on taking PrCs for this character.

You want to do direct damage with a bard? Hmm... well, I guess every once in a while a fish decides it really wants to ride a bicycle. It sounds like you're frustrated because your character isn't being effective in combat, and Fiery Burst would at least give him a ranged attack he could do every round. Personally I think it's a lousy idea, but if it makes you happy, fine with me. If you want to go that route, you should reconsider Sublime Chord, since that will add more fire-based invocations to your spell list.

You can get a lot more damage not only just for your character but for every single attack the party makes by going the Dragontouched + Dragonfire Inspiration route. Inspire Courage doesn't go up to +2 until 8th level, but if you add Song of the Heart and Inspirational Boost, at 9th level you could be adding 4d6 energy damage to all of the party's attacks. Add Draconic Heritage and you can switch the energy to something unusual like force or sonic.

There are more important things for bards to do in combat other than damage, though. Your enchantment and illusion spells are designed to delay, confuse, redirect, or neutralize opponents. You're also a backup healer. And the number of helpful things you can do with just an unseen servant are staggering (pick up disarmed weapons, open/close doors, drop/pick up caltrops, position smokesticks, etc.). If you can save another party member from wasting a move or standard action to do something, that gives them another attack roll on an enemy. Yeah, ok, so maybe you spend a lot of time as a foppish, singing gopher, but after the battle is over, you totally pwn the barmaids back at the tavern.

Outside of combat, you're got the charisma to be the party face, even if you didn't put points in diplomacy. Not to mention the amount of damage you can do with the forgery skill. ("I'm here to pick up Lord Giantcodpiece's magic armor. Oh, here's the purchase order and the receipt from the moneylender, signed by the Lord himself.")

weenie
2008-12-10, 02:02 PM
No, actually I'm quite ok with my character. He is a great party face, can be sneaky, has a few SoS spells with very nice DCs, and to top it off he gives everyone a +2 to hit and dmg(took Song of the Heart). My problem was that at lvl 6 my bard runs out of spells pretty fast, so I was looking for something he could do while Inspiring courage, while he saves his spells for the though guys. His melee sucks, his ranged isn't much better, so I figured having a 2d6 Reflex half wouldn't hurt. It cost me two feats, but it really isn't all that bad. Right? :smallsmile:

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-10, 02:31 PM
I'm making a Gnome bard and I realized he isn't much good once he runs out of spells.
You're doing it wrong. :smalltongue:

If you want a character whose power comes from spellcasting, then you'd be better off with a different class than Bard. Wizard, Sorcerer, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, whatever. (Depending on whether you want a big repertoire of spells for every occasion, the ability to spam a few powerful spells over and over, enchantment and illusion magic supplemented with skill-monkey abilities, support casting and healing, or just raw pwnage.)

If you want to play a Bard, you should be significantly contributing via things other than casting spells. Bardic music, bardic knowledge, the use of various skills, and plain old attacks with weapons if it comes to that.

I'd make a gnome bard's stats something like 17 Cha, 16 Int, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 8 Str, 8 Wis at level 6 before magic items. (Str is only worthless if you ignore the carrying capacity rules.) You've got a bunch of great class skills, and they just go to waste if you don't pour skill point into them. If you'd sooner pick up a cloak of charisma +2 that a circlet of persuasion, or you value alter self more as a source of natural armor than a superb means of disguise, then you really should be questioning just why you're playing the skill-monkey/caster hybrid instead of a straight-up caster. If you just wanted good spellcasting but also skills to fall back on... that's what Beguiler, Arcane Trickster, and the like are for.

Don't be afraid to select spells and skills purely because no one else in your group has them. You've also got Use Magic Device as a class skill, which may allow you to use some magic items that no one else in your group can. You have the capacity to fill nearly any sort of hole in a party's abilities, so use it. A significant strength of the Bard class is its ability to pick up an array of disparate abilities. If you want to specialize in one role, you make a party face character (in core), take a PrC, or play a different class. If you're not doing any of those, you're really best off embracing the Bard's jack-of-all-tradesness.

Glimbur
2008-12-10, 02:45 PM
You're proficient in the whip. Stand just behind the melee and try to disarm and or trip folks. Even if you fail, all you lose is a low-cost whip for the rest of the fight.

Eldariel
2008-12-10, 02:47 PM
I know it is a weak option, but I'd only lose two feats and I can take Flaws, so that's not an issue. I'm not trying to center my whole build around it, it's just something I could use to kill a few mooks while inspiring courage.. It's not going to be a high powered campaign anyway, so I was really only looking for some gashing flaws.

You'd be better off shooting things with a bow or some such.

weenie
2008-12-10, 03:09 PM
You'd be better off shooting things with a bow or some such.

I'd still cost me (at least)two feats+weapon proficiency to be effective and my to hit is weak. As for the whip thing, I'd cost me 2 feats(my flaw is noncombatant, so I'd have to ditch it) and with my strength it would still be incredibly ineffective.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-10, 03:14 PM
A plain ol' +1 light crossbow and the Rapid Reload feat allow you to make two 1d6 + 1 attacks per round. Admittedly, the second one of those is only at BAB +1, and you can't take it and make a move action in the same round. And an arrow won't ever damage multiple foes... Hmm.

Ranged trip and disarm attacks are fun, but a fair bit harder to pull off if you're a gnome.

weenie
2008-12-10, 03:34 PM
A plain ol' +1 light crossbow and the Rapid Reload feat allow you to make two 1d6 + 1 attacks per round. Admittedly, the second one of those is only at BAB +1, and you can't take it and make a move action in the same round. And an arrow won't ever damage multiple foes... Hmm.

Ranged trip and disarm attacks are fun, but a fair bit harder to pull off if you're a gnome.

But then there's shooting into melee and all that stuff. And my gnome still has a crappy attack bonus.. Inspire courage helps, sure, but not that much.

Don't know guys, it seems to me that the reserve feat is still my best option so far.

And to reply to the people that have suggested the xd6 force damage bonus, I think that would be overdoing it a bit.

Mystral
2008-12-10, 03:35 PM
How about wands?

Get a few wands for spells you haven't on your class list but are usefull anyway.

Shatter and Invisibility spring to mind.

Also: If you just use a +1 flaming light crossbow with no feats, you'll still be able to hit with a +6 for 2d6+1 damage. That's not to bad.

if you really want to use reserve feats, at least use those that you can already use. Touch of Distraction or Clap of Thunder? (dunno your spells)

mabriss lethe
2008-12-10, 04:21 PM
If you're dead set on picking up a reserve feat, you'll probably get more use out of Dimensional Jaunt, Summon Elemental, touch of distraction, or clap of thunder. Sure, you'll have to wait a few more levels to pick them up, but they're far less feat intensive and far more utilitarian, which, I think, is the main reason to avoid fiery burst.

As soon as you can afford it, try to pick up a wand of shadow conjuration (or better still, an eternal wand.)

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-12, 12:47 PM
as has been said ad nauseum a spellcaster focus bard is not ideal. the point of the bard is multiuse. you have ok weaons armor, skills lore (so useful) bardic music (equally usefull) and a nice mix of spells to suppliment.

clap of thunder if a beaut of damage dealing. shadow veil gives you a little grief giving by penalizing an enemy and giving people he's fighting concealment.. and melodic castign to do spells and keep up singing.

Draz74
2008-12-12, 01:02 PM
Rather than burning two feats on Arcane Disciple and Fiery Burst, it seems like it would be more effective just to dip a level of Warlock.

1d6 magic ranged touch damage all day long, and a Invocation to boot. Beguiling Influence or some such?

Hey, wasn't there even a Complete Mage PrC that advanced Warlock and Arcane Caster simultaneously?

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-12, 01:04 PM
Don't know guys, it seems to me that the reserve feat is still my best option so far.


There are very few situations where this statement is ever warranted.

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-12, 01:08 PM
elderitch theurge,

and its a good point chr synergy, and to get a little dr would help inprove survivability. but it does hinder bardic song and lore.

much to consider.

Heliomance
2008-12-12, 01:09 PM
as has been said ad nauseum a spellcaster focus bard is not ideal. the point of the bard is multiuse. you have ok weaons armor, skills lore (so useful) bardic music (equally usefull) and a nice mix of spells to suppliment.

clap of thunder if a beaut of damage dealing. shadow veil gives you a little grief giving by penalizing an enemy and giving people he's fighting concealment.. and melodic castign to do spells and keep up singing.

No. Being a jack of all trades is always suboptimal in D&D. Haberdash the Kitchen Sink is about the only exception I can think of. You need to pick a facet of the Bard and make it good. Spellcaster Bards can be very scary, if built right - Sublime Chord is a very nice PrC. Alternatively, you can optimise your Inspire Courage out the wazoo and end up granting ~30 extra damage to every attack your allies make. Or you can become a very competant skillmonkey and party face. Trying to fill all the roles will mean you are mediocre at them all.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-12, 01:22 PM
There are very few situations where this statement is ever warranted.I have to disagree. There are quite a few good Reserve feats out there, and they shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand. Now, if he'd said Fiery Burst....

Raging Gene Ray
2008-12-12, 01:25 PM
Haberdash the Kitchen Sink.

What does putting hats on taps have to do with optimized Jack of All Trades builds?

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-12, 01:25 PM
No. Being a jack of all trades is always suboptimal in D&D. Haberdash the Kitchen Sink is about the only exception I can think of. You need to pick a facet of the Bard and make it good. Spellcaster Bards can be very scary, if built right - Sublime Chord is a very nice PrC. Alternatively, you can optimise your Inspire Courage out the wazoo and end up granting ~30 extra damage to every attack your allies make. Or you can become a very competant skillmonkey and party face. Trying to fill all the roles will mean you are mediocre at them all.

in every build you still dont neuter the ability to wear armor, use a reasonable decent weapon, or completely do away with some aspect of being able to do "a little of everything". sublime chord, good prc, especially for the temp caster boost. but is not on par with a full mage with other prcs. if you want to be an "optimal" full blown caster you dont go bard. if you want to be little subprime but want your options you go bard. if you go bard and you get rid of any advantage to being a bard, then you may as well play a different class.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-12, 01:31 PM
I have to disagree. There are quite a few good Reserve feats out there, and they shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand.
Hence why i only said very few. 90% of all reserve feats are crap.

Heliomance
2008-12-12, 01:35 PM
in every build you still dont neuter the ability to wear armor,
You can use light armour. Whoop de doo. That's hardly a party role.

use a reasonable decent weapon,
In the words of Vaarsuvius, there is a vast gulf between being proficient with a weapon and being good with a weapon.

or completely do away with some aspect of being able to do "a little of everything".
If you focus on one aspect of the Bard, the other aspecs are likely to suffer somewhat. If you try and do everything, everything suffers. I didn't say you would be bad, I said you would be mediocre.

sublime chord, good prc, especially for the temp caster boost. but is not on par with a full mage with other prcs.
Actually, it really is, especially at later levels. The classic Bard 9/Virt 1/Sub 2/Virt +8 build I would say is probably better than a sorceror.

if you want to be an "optimal" full blown caster you dont go bard. if you want to be little subprime but want your options you go bard. if you go bard and you get rid of any advantage to being a bard, then you may as well play a different class.
Bards can become terrifying spellcasters. Bards can become terrifying buffmonkeys. Bards can become terrifying diplomancers. Or Bards can be mediocre at all three. It's possible to fill all the roles, but it takes serious cheese.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-12, 01:35 PM
Hence why i only said very few. 90% of all reserve feats are crap.Fixed. Reserve feats are just as often worth it as normal ones.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-12, 01:38 PM
Note that in 3.5, Spellcasting Prodigy does not increase your save DCs (PGtF), it only counts your ability score as 2 points higher for purposes of determining bonus spells, and nothing more. Get rid of it, and get useful feats like Dragontouched/Dragonfire Inspiration and Melodic Casting, and take flaws if you can for Song of the Heart and Words of Creation. Take the Gnome Bard racial substitution levels at 1 and 6, and the Planar Bard substitution level at 3. Get the spell Inspirational Boost (SC), Gloves of the Uldra Savant (FB), and the Raiment of the Four set (MIC). Get max ranks in UMD and pick up a few wands of choice spells. Remember that a Bard who's played as a primary spellcaster but doesn't take Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader is doomed to a life of mediocrity.

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-12, 01:49 PM
You can use light armour. Whoop de doo. That's hardly a party role.

In the words of Vaarsuvius, there is a vast gulf between being proficient with a weapon and being good with a weapon.

If you focus on one aspect of the Bard, the other aspecs are likely to suffer somewhat. If you try and do everything, everything suffers. I didn't say you would be bad, I said you would be mediocre.

Actually, it really is, especially at later levels. The classic Bard 9/Virt 1/Sub 2/Virt +8 build I would say is probably better than a sorceror.

Bards can become terrifying spellcasters. Bards can become terrifying buffmonkeys. Bards can become terrifying diplomancers. Or Bards can be mediocre at all three. It's possible to fill all the roles, but it takes serious cheese.
point 1)studded leather and boostsbetter thnan no armor. if can find a better bobe than light armor of subsequent level to match hi/her build, wear it instead
2)aside for elditch knight, most cases higher bab, and mroevariety in weapons. may not be trip monkey, or a full blown melee maniac, but bards will have a bigger variety of choices to side arms and most cases better than a full arcane caster.
3) yes they suffer a bit. focus in any class suffers other aspects. but you dont completely lose a benefit. but the key to his issue is he is feckless without spells.
4)bard better than sorceror kinda often. warmage better than sorc in a few too. sorc is the fighter of the casting classes.
5)so can clerics/beguilers/wizards.

I think we are seeing similar points to the same arguement but soemhow oppossing each other.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-12, 01:50 PM
4)bard better than sorceror kinda often. warmage better than sorc in a few too. sorc is the fighter of the casting classes.

I don't understand what you're saying here, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-12, 01:52 PM
point 1)studded leather and boostsbetter thnan no armor. if can find a better bobe than light armor of subsequent level to match hi/her build, wear it instead
2)aside for elditch knight, most cases higher bab, and mroevariety in weapons. may not be trip monkey, or a full blown melee maniac, but bards will have a bigger variety of choices to side arms and most cases better than a full arcane caster.
3) yes they suffer a bit. focus in any class suffers other aspects. but you dont completely lose a benefit. but the key to his issue is he is feckless without spells.
4)bard better than sorceror kinda often. warmage better than sorc in a few too. sorc is the fighter of the casting classes.
5)so can clerics/beguilers/wizards.

I think we are seeing similar points to the same arguement but soemhow oppossing each other.I'm sorry, can you please spell/grammar check your posts. There's points in that one which I cannot understand due to the typos and lack of sentence structure.

Keld Denar
2008-12-12, 02:42 PM
You don't have to pick 1 facet and maximize it to the detriment of others. Typically you can do 2-3 that synergize well, but some are mutually exclusive.

In my opinion, the 2 main bard archtypes are:

Caster Bard (Typically Bard9/Virt1/SC1/Virt9 or some varience)
- You still have feats to take Melodic Casting, Song of the Heart, and bonus stuff like DFI and/or Words of Creation without losing too much strength castingwize. Granted, you could spend those feat slots on things like Greater Spell Focus, but the net result on your DCs and casting power in general isn't too great.
-Also, other than the prereqs for SC and Virt, which are common bardic skills anyway, most of your skill points remain free to keep Diplomacy, Bluff, etc, all maxed. Especially if you take Melodic Casting which allows you to not put ranks in Concentration. Granted, you could spend the feat on Skill Focus: Diplomacy, but thats a bit of overkill given that Dip is a class skill for all classes and cha is your main stat.
-Forsakes Bardic Knowledge a bit, but can make up for it with points in other knowledges.

Melee Bard (Bard4/Warblade16, Bard4/Crusader16, Bard4/Paladin16 et al)
- Spellcasting is traded for nearly full BAB and combat tricks. Since most combat prowass comes from IC or DFI, focus on those feats should be given. Other than that, skill points, while tighter, are still available to spend on Bluff or Diplomacy as desired while still taking requisite Perform and other skills.
-Loses out on Bardic Knowledge though, and doesn't really have the extra skill points to invest in knowledges.

So, you CAN focus on more than one aspect. A melee bard often has a great IC, and a caster bard can often have a good IC as well without taking much away from your primary desired role. It would be hard to make a melee/caster bard though, although its probably possible using something like EK progressing SC casting and wouldn't be very viable at low levels.

Eldariel
2008-12-12, 02:57 PM
Melee Bard (Bard4/Warblade16, Bard4/Crusader16, Bard4/Paladin16 et al)
- Spellcasting is traded for nearly full BAB and combat tricks. Since most combat prowass comes from IC or DFI, focus on those feats should be given. Other than that, skill points, while tighter, are still available to spend on Bluff or Diplomacy as desired while still taking requisite Perform and other skills.
-Loses out on Bardic Knowledge though, and doesn't really have the extra skill points to invest in knowledges.

Some more Bard-levels for extra uses of Bardic Music (you'll have Song of the White Raven to max out Inspire Courage really making these work) tend to be worth it. Also, occasionally you may want to go Bard 9 for Inspire Greatness (especially if you have Song of the Heart and Words of Creation to empower it).

Too bad there's no way to combine Dervish and Bard for Inspire Courage et al. It'd be a really flavourful combo (especially since you can use Perform: Dance for your Perform), and quite efficient at that, if short on feats.


But yea, thanks to Bardic Knack, Bards can be really awesome skill monkeys, and they're decent casters and so on. Indeed, you can make a very decent Bardic Jack-of-all-Trades with awesome songs (and as a consequence, either melee or archery).

Keld Denar
2008-12-12, 03:22 PM
Some more Bard-levels for extra uses of Bardic Music (you'll have Song of the White Raven to max out Inspire Courage really making these work) tend to be worth it. Also, occasionally you may want to go Bard 9 for Inspire Greatness (especially if you have Song of the Heart and Words of Creation to empower it).
The goal is to keep a single bardsong going as long as possible. Since the build only gets 3ish castings of Inspirational Boost and 3 uses of Badge of Valor anyway, you'd only have your optimal bard song on a couple encounters anyway. The only reasons you'd ever stop performing would be to talk to someone (not as needed in a dungeon setting), cast a spell (fixed with Melodic Casting, but really unneeded in this build due to the low number of spells), if you need to move stealthily (tell the guy in fullplate to take it off and I'll stop singing!), or if you get stunned/silenced/dropped. Thus, you could keep a single IC going through at least 2 encounters each average, you could get through 6 encounters per day with only 3 uses, and 6 encounters/day is quite a bit in most situations, barring dungeons, but then you could probably average 3 encounters per song at least.


Too bad there's no way to combine Dervish and Bard for Inspire Courage et al. It'd be a really flavourful combo (especially since you can use Perform: Dance for your Perform), and quite efficient at that, if short on feats.

Yea, that would be a cool and flavorful and powerful character. Imagine the fluid grace of a Bard/Dervish/RevenantBlade with a Valenar Double Scimitar hopped up on DFI flipping around slashing and cutting leaving blurred lines of fire hanging in the air behind her.

Epinephrine
2008-12-12, 03:45 PM
The only reasons you'd ever stop performing would be to talk to someone (not as needed in a dungeon setting), cast a spell (fixed with Melodic Casting, but really unneeded in this build due to the low number of spells), if you need to move stealthily (tell the guy in fullplate to take it off and I'll stop singing!), or if you get stunned/silenced/dropped. Thus, you could keep a single IC going through at least 2 encounters each average, you could get through 6 encounters per day with only 3 uses, and 6 encounters/day is quite a bit in most situations, barring dungeons, but then you could probably average 3 encounters per song at least.

Is this typical interpretation? While I agree that it doesn't specifically say that you can't continue a single song all day, I can say that I wouldn't want to try it.

For one thing, I have children. I've had someone sing at me (intermittantly) for extended periods. I guarantee that without the parent-child bond the party members would kill the bard. Secondly, a song like Jethro Tull's Baker Street Muse seems like it lasts forever, at over 16 minutes. Thirdly, I've sung in a madrigal choir, a barbershop quartet, a folk trio, and a regular old choir. There's no way I'd want to sing for hours at a time, and I like singing.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-12, 03:49 PM
Is this typical interpretation? While I agree that it doesn't specifically say that you can't continue a single song all day, I can say that I wouldn't want to try it.

For one thing, I have children. I've had someone sing at me (intermittantly) for extended periods. I guarantee that without the parent-child bond the party members would kill the bard. Secondly, a song like Jethro Tull's Baker Street Muse seems like it lasts forever, at over 16 minutes. Thirdly, I've sung in a madrigal choir, a barbershop quartet, a folk trio, and a regular old choir. There's no way I'd want to sing for hours at a time, and I like singing.RAW it works. RAI, well...I have friends who play guitar, and let me tell you, I would not make Perform:Lute checks for hours on end and expect to have fingertips left.

Keld Denar
2008-12-12, 03:50 PM
Is this typical interpretation? While I agree that it doesn't specifically say that you can't continue a single song all day, I can say that I wouldn't want to try it.

FREEBIRD!

*jams on electric lute with a +41 bonus on my Perform:Epic Solo skill*

Draz74
2008-12-12, 03:52 PM
Yea, that would be a cool and flavorful and powerful character. Imagine the fluid grace of a Bard/Dervish/RevenantBlade with a Valenar Double Scimitar hopped up on DFI flipping around slashing and cutting leaving blurred lines of fire hanging in the air behind her.

Hmmm ... Swordsage/Bard with Song of the White Raven? Of course, Swordsage doesn't get White Raven ... except through feats.

Eldariel
2008-12-12, 04:01 PM
Hmmm ... Swordsage/Bard with Song of the White Raven? Of course, Swordsage doesn't get White Raven ... except through feats.

Doesn't work. The stacking only applies specifically to Warblade and Crusader. Would be much cooler if it'd apply to your "White Raven-granting class" making it work with PrCs, but bleh. Meh, I guess I'll just have to houserule it.

I suppose the combo is actually decent even without stacking Dervish-levels, but the fact that you don't really have enough song-uses for both, Snowflake Wardance and Inspire Courage, nor enough feats for Extra Song (Dervish requires a ton of crappy feats, and good Inspire Courage+Snowflake requires quite a bit of stuff too) mean it'll all be rather meh. Hmm, even without Inspire Courage though, you get Chax2 to your attacks, and Cha to damage with Slippers of Battledancing, Snowflake Wardance and Dervish (and of course, the usual Dervish-boosts).

ericgrau
2008-12-12, 09:24 PM
Casting is hardly the bard's strongest point. If you focused on cha at the expense of all else, shame on you. Basically there are little things that every class does that, while they may not be their highest level ability, is strong enough that they do it anyway. And as a bard you aren't half as good as them at those things, you are equally good at those things. Fighters/etc. trip (you use a whip), clerics use CLW wands between battle, rogues scout/use-misc-skills/etc., arcane casters use powerful low level spells like haste, grease, glitterdust and illusions and all casters craft magic items. Take over these roles and free up your party to do other things. Not only are you just as good at them, you can fill in for multiple people (not just one). Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you must do lots of subpar options like fighting, social interaction and buffing stats. Haste and a couple other non-stat buffs are good though. Buffs/songs used outside of combat (to avoid wasting rounds) are okay if you have extra spell slots to blow. And if you prestige out any strat might work. See others' posts for help there.

Keld Denar
2008-12-12, 09:41 PM
SFWD is actually really BAD for most bard blends, melee or otherwise. Because it uses a BM use every combat, you quickly run out with only 3-4 available in a day, unless you burn a couple feats on Extra Music, which is generally a not so good idea. For a straight bard, SFWD is great, since you generally can't burn through 10-20 BM uses per day without burning them up through extraneous methods such as SFWD, Lyric Spell, or Seeker songs. It really hurts the builds I posted (well, except the paladin one, since Devoted Performer increases BM/day, but the paladin one needs PA and Divine Might to work well, which doesn't work with SFWD). As I stated in my earlier post, you have to average about 2 encounters per BM use, or you lose a goodly portion of your offense. If you though SFWD in the mix, you'll only get about 2 uses of normal BM to use for the whole day, and 2 of those encounters you'll be able to SFWD in, so you better pick them carefully. If you get stunned or knocked unconsious, that ends both effects, which makes you very not useful for the rest of combat, even after the stun effect ends.

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-13, 12:08 PM
I don't understand what you're saying here, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong.

a sorceror is not a good class if you are comparing casters. to say a well made caster bard is better than a sorc, that is like saying a well made rogue is better than a fighter. its true but it doesn't really say a lot for saying how powerful the bard build you state is at being a great caster build.

Yukitsu
2008-12-13, 12:42 PM
a sorceror is not a good class if you are comparing casters. to say a well made caster bard is better than a sorc, that is like saying a well made rogue is better than a fighter. its true but it doesn't really say a lot for saying how powerful the bard build you state is at being a great caster build.

So ninth level spell progression and faster spell attainment is significantly worse than limited casting? The only bard build that competes is the sublime chord, and only because it's just a sorcerer with bardic music tacked on.

Eldariel
2008-12-13, 12:52 PM
Sublime Chord actually compares well to a Cleric. You have very decent martial ability in addition to your casting, Metamagic Song to fuel your Metamagic along with Song of Arcane Power to improve your spellcasting. This means you can fuel your stuff like Clerics do with Turnings (you actually mirror DMM and Divine Spell Power pretty accurately), but unlike with Turnings, you get more Songs each level. The problem is that since a PrC is already a part of all that, you can't take any other PrC while at it (so when the more powerful PrCs, like Dweomerkeeper and Incantatrix are in play, the Bard is hopelessly outgunned). The good news is that you can afford few non-spellcasting levels without losing anything tangible.

Egiam
2008-12-13, 02:26 PM
Get Complete Adventurer. It has loads of bard stuff.

Keld Denar
2008-12-13, 05:23 PM
Casting is hardly the bard's strongest point.

Actually, it kind of is. But not for buffing. At low levels, bards get a lot of the best disables that wizards get. They get Grease, Glitterdust Hideous Laughter, and although its a buff, Haste. If you go SC, you then get things like Solid/Freezing Fog, Flesh to Stone, Stun Ray, and a number of other awesome wizard disables. A wizard doesn't spend his rounds casting Bull Str on someone, so why should you? Heroism? Uh-uh, screw that. Doesn't stack with IC anyway. Suck on some Sculpted Glitterdust instead. Its a bigger buff to the fighter to blind your opponents (effectively Greater Invis) than to buff him for minor things like that. Sure you have IC running, because IC is amazing, and with Melodic Casting, doesn't interupt the more important things you have to do, like delivering your foes to your meleeists 1 at a time, stunned, prone, slowed, and drooling on themselves. You are, as Frank Miller put it, the goddamn Batman (lite). THATS an effective caster, not wasting your time with some of the crap they tried to put on the bards spell list. I'd take an effective Bard (the way I'd play it) over an inefficient Wizard any day.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-13, 07:21 PM
So ninth level spell progression and faster spell attainment is significantly worse than limited casting? The only bard build that competes is the sublime chord, and only because it's just a sorcerer with bardic music tacked on.Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9

That's what people are talking about when they say the Bard has better casting than a Sorc. It doesn't for most levels, but it finishes with similar casting and better other abilities.

Eldariel
2008-12-13, 07:32 PM
Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8, really (or Bard 8/ to be Epic-ready if you plan on Metamagic Songing your Songs away anyways), as it gives you the same amount of Bardic Musics, and the awesome Song of Arcane Power (effectively, spend Bardic Music for +4 to CL).