Transmutation Wizards

[AdamSmasher]

AKA Save or die/suck/lose

I don't get it.

How can this be a viable strategy? I've never been able to get my spell DCs above 25+spell level, yet plenty of things out there have +23-25 to ALL their saves. A 5% chance to afflict somebody doesn't seem like a good idea. I would pick spells that offer no save or control the battlefield before Flesh to Stone or Finger of Death ANY DAY.

But maybe I'm missing something.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

AKA Save or die/suck/lose

I don't get it.

How can this be a viable strategy? I've never been able to get my spell DCs above 25+spell level, yet plenty of things out there have +23-25 to ALL their saves. A 5% chance to afflict somebody doesn't seem like a good idea. I would pick spells that offer no save or control the battlefield before Flesh to Stone or Finger of Death ANY DAY.

But maybe I'm missing something.SoX is part of an overall strategy. Control/no-saves have their place, but sometimes Dominate is a better bet.
It's rare to face enemies(especially humanoids) with all 3 good saves. Check the chart.http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/stoopidtallkid/savessriu4.jpgAt first level I can toss out DC 18-19 saves on a Beguiler. No CR-appropriate challenge will make that on less than about a 15, especially when you can target their weak save. Combine that with the SoX spells that have a good effect on a made save(Grease, Glitterdust), and you've got a very nice action.

[Blood_Lord]

AKA Save or die/suck/lose

I don't get it.

How can this be a viable strategy? I've never been able to get my spell DCs above 25+spell level, yet plenty of things out there have +23-25 to ALL their saves. A 5% chance to afflict somebody doesn't seem like a good idea. I would pick spells that offer no save or control the battlefield before Flesh to Stone or Finger of Death ANY DAY.

But maybe I'm missing something.

Well first, as he said, check the chart.

2) There are very few things with all good saves. What level do you want, take an average. Hell, name a creature, and I'll give you a save DC at that level.

For example:

Level 20: Old Gray Elf Wizard 20 with Spell focus and greater of two schools:

Int score of 38 = 18 base +2 age +2 racial +6 item +5 levels +5 tomes

DCs are 26+ spell level. Granted that's an extreme case, but really, it's not much less. And it doesn't make any sense for you to be facing anything with all saves at +20 something until about level 17 anyway.

3)

[monty]

And it doesn't make any sense for you to be facing anything with all saves at +20 something until about level 17 anyway.

And at that level, wizards have already won the game anyway.

[mostlyharmful]

A great deal of the power of a Transmutation Wiz is in targeting things that either don't get a save (the roof over your head or the floor under your feet), target things that WANT to fail their saves (buffanation here we come) or use effects that completely change the ballgame like teleport, shapechange, PAO, Rope Trick, Ghost form, Fabricate, blah, blah....). SoX are good if you target them right but don't be limited to them, the strength of Trans is that you can rework the world to fit you so don't be limited in your thinking.

[kamikasei]

When did we start using "transmutation wizard" to mean "save-or-die spammer"? I wasn't under the impression that strategy was exclusive to or even exemplified by transmuters (those choosing transmutation as a specialist school).

[Stupendous_Man]

AKA Save or die/suck/lose

I don't get it.

How can this be a viable strategy?

Because you can do so much more then toss out save or die spells?

Ie, cast Wall of Iron, sell wall of Iron to make profit, make more walls of iron, then Fabricate them it into a huge object, then ANIMATE it for a MOBILE FORTRESS OF OPPRESSION!!!

[ericgrau]

When did we start using "transmutation wizard" to mean "save-or-die spammer"? I wasn't under the impression that strategy was exclusive to or even exemplified by transmuters (those choosing transmutation as a specialist school).

Ya they got SoD's, buffs and polymorph. Polymorph is famous. SoD's are limited: most transmutations target fortitude IIRC, maybe will. Even when targeting weak saves it may take multiple rounds to get a hit; usually direct damage is faster (just using DD as an example b/c it's a nice baseline). You need a BBEG with lots of HP and poor saves for it to be worth it. Besides haste, even the good buffs aren't all that special and some are downright lousy.

If you have lots of prep rounds and tons of spell slots, or if you simply break polymorph with a 3rd party book or adding gear, buffed polymorphed creatures can be deadly. But those are three big ifs. Otherwise I don't see a viable way to focus on transmutation alone. Maybe transmutation and something else. Like a polymorpher/buffer with plenty of misc spells as well, and the option to swap in SoD's when big dumb baddies with poor magic resistance come in. Mmm, what a nice way to grind the game to a halt.

[Shishnarfne]

Another trick for dealing with foes with high saves (e.g. Dragons) is to use spells that do not allow saves to reduce their saves (negative levels being a personal favorite). Of course, this takes some actions, so it's not risk-free, and it won't always work (Death Ward, anyone), but it's another tactic that helps.

[arguskos]

Transmutation is about being the guy with the answers to random situations. You have a good number of save-or-suck spells, some damaging effects (if you dip into Conjuration or Evocation), and with some spreading around of your spells, you can basically have most any answer prepared at any time. That's where your power is: you have diversity.

You can be a buffer, a debuffer, a combat monster, a blaster, and more, all decently well (some excellently... looking at you Polymorph). Use your diversity, and you'll do fine.

[AslanCross]

Transmutation is I think the school with the widest repertoire of capabilities. It doesn't mean relying exclusively on disintegrate or baleful polymorph. The Transmuter has, as arguskos said, the answers to random questions.

"Hey, can you make us go faster?" "Sure. Haste."
"Hey, can you bring down that wall?" "Sure. Let me transmute the ground to mud. It'll be easier from there."

That said, the wizard in my party has taken out some villains with baleful polymorph. Especially sad was the evil but incompetent pirate captain who got turned into a snail.

[arguskos]

Transmutation is I think the school with the widest repertoire of capabilities. It doesn't mean relying exclusively on disintegrate or baleful polymorph. The Transmuter has, as arguskos said, the answers to random questions.

"Hey, can you make us go faster?" "Sure. Haste."
"Hey, can you bring down that wall?" "Sure. Let me transmute the ground to mud. It'll be easier from there."

That said, the wizard in my party has taken out some villains with baleful polymorph. Especially sad was the evil but incompetent pirate captain who got turned into a snail.
Basically, yeah. I was looking at the Transmutation list in the Spell Compendium and the PHB recently (for a Transmutation-focused casting class I am working on), and it struck me that they have all sorts of random effects. Bands of Steel, Shieldbearer, Transmute X to Y, the list of random-but-useful effects goes on and on.

[Eldariel]

Basically, yeah. I was looking at the Transmutation list in the Spell Compendium and the PHB recently (for a Transmutation-focused casting class I am working on), and it struck me that they have all sorts of random effects. Bands of Steel, Shieldbearer, Transmute X to Y, the list of random-but-useful effects goes on and on.

There's a reason Transmuter and Conjurer are considered the best specialisation. Either can basically do everything a Wizard wants to do (except Divining; luckily you can't give that up - I think WoTC added that restriction to force Wizard-players to RP their Int) themselves. Although of course not as well as a full-fledged Wizard, but still well enough to easily make up for the lost Enchantment and Evocation (oh, poor, poor Evocation).

And this is before we start talking about the Polymorph-line and getting +tons to NA, high fly-speeds, etc. with just one spell (even Alter Self is insane - Trogdolytes have something like +6 NA, you have swimming and burrowing forms and I recall there was at least one flyer available to Humanoids too, etc. Of course, the fun begins when playing a natural Outsider, such as a Tiefling). Also, a large number of natural weapons + buff spells + Str of the new form = deadly.

[RebelRogue]

except Divining; luckily you can't give that up - I think WoTC added that restriction to force Wizard-players to RP their Int
I have always assumed it was to ensure that wizards has access to the Read Magic spell: it's always been the first spell a wizard ever learns (at least according to older editions).

[monty]

I have always assumed it was to ensure that wizards has access to the Read Magic spell: it's always been the first spell a wizard ever learns (at least according to older editions).

Well, I'd assume you have to be able to read magic before you can learn it.

[mostlyharmful]

Also leads to the hilarious situation of the bookworm that dedicated their life to magic isn't able to read magical books maybe a little.... Plus the whole point of Wizards is that they're geeks, geeks love info and research, div is just exactly that.

[arguskos]

I always thought they couldn't ban Divination because it gives some basic powers that all wizards should have (Detect/Read Magic, Identify, etc).

Oh, and the school sucks, so you shouldn't get to ban it (you're not losing that much really). Just my thoughts.

[mostlyharmful]

(you're not losing that much really). Just my thoughts.

Speaking as a teacher you really really are, it's not for everyone I'll admit but for the most part people benefit from having their brains forcibly stretched but they may not all feel giddy as a schoollgirl (even if they are a schoolgirl) about the whole enchilada.

[Shades of Gray]

I was under the impression Necromancy was the Save or Die school. With Enchantment applying for enemy humanoid heavy games.

[Tacoma]

Because you can do so much more then toss out save or die spells?

Ie, cast Wall of Iron, sell wall of Iron to make profit, make more walls of iron, then Fabricate them it into a huge object, then ANIMATE it for a MOBILE FORTRESS OF OPPRESSION!!!

...

I was waiting for the PROFIT meme.
Now I shake my head sadly, like a child too old to believe in Tooth Fairies who is nonetheless told by his parents in what they think is the kind of "ritual of the growing-up" but he knows they will never understand him.

I think creating a Wall of Iron that's as thin as foil across a large open cobblestone square is excellent. After all, once you cut large sections and fold them up, the foil is worth more per pound than ingots of iron. Because it's in a more refined form that would take a huge amount of skill and time and specialized equipment to make.

[arguskos]

Speaking as a teacher you really really are, it's not for everyone I'll admit but for the most part people benefit from having their brains forcibly stretched but they may not all feel giddy as a schoollgirl (even if they are a schoolgirl) about the whole enchilada.
Well, the school isn't that great, mechanically. Don't fear, I like the effects and spells, but really, the school sorta sucks, especially at lower levels.

[Stupendous_Man]

...

I was waiting for the PROFIT meme.
Wait until I actually figure out how to do it.

[Shades of Gray]

How to do it?

1) Decide to use the meme
2) First Step
3) Second Step
4) ????
????
6)Profit!

[mostlyharmful]

Well, the school isn't that great, mechanically. Don't fear, I like the effects and spells, but really, the school sorta sucks, especially at lower levels.

Well the hours aren't great I'll grant you but the pay scale well.... scales and the pensions good and hey, you'lll never get a better set of holidays!:smallbiggrin:

That being said the general point was to be all about the info generation in info based casting. Not that much of a point but enough of one to make idle snarky comments about anyway.

[arguskos]

How to do it?

0) Decide to use the meme
1) First Step
2) Second Step
3) ????
4)Profit!
Fixed that for ya. :smallbiggrin:


Well the hours aren't great I'll grant you but the pay scale well.... scales and the pensions good and hey, you'lll never get a better set of holidays!

That being said the general point was to be all about the info generation in info based casting. Not that much of a point but enough of one to make idle snarky comments about anyway.
Hey man, I want to be an English teacher one of these days. :smallwink: Besides, snarky comments are why I come here.

[Eldariel]

Well, the school isn't that great, mechanically. Don't fear, I like the effects and spells, but really, the school sorta sucks, especially at lower levels.

It's not offensively powerful, but it's the key to always being prepared with the right spells tomorrow. Given the option, I'd never ban Divination - it's the only school filled with totally irreplaceable effects. I mean, look at the Oracle! A Wizard can do that too!

Hmm, and I wouldn't say the "thirst for knowledge" applies to every Wizard - many Wizards just have a thirst for power and know that having to read through all that crap is the price they have to pay for it.