Odd Thoughts on the Afterlife

[Grey Watcher]

Because my commute involves a lot of waiting for trains, I find my mind wandering a lot. And today it happened to wander onto the subject of the afterlife presented in the Order of the Stick.

And I got to thinking about Horace's explanation about everything in the afterlife being shaped by belief and the fact that Roy was admitted to the mountain despite fulfilling his Lawful obligations in a very Chaotic way.

Now, what if his eventual admission has as much to do with his beliefs that Good (and Expediency in the Pursuit of Good) trumps Law as it does with the "objective" rules as outlined in the rulebook? Does this mean that Eugene is kept out, not because of an actual technicality, but because, deep down, he knows he shouldn't because he let the Blood Oath slide? He does cry out that "it's not fair" that Roy gets to go in while he doesn't. Does that reflect as much on his belief about himself (ie, he didn't live up to an important obligation) as it does on his feelings about his son?

I realize that musing on the metaphysics of a comic book Heaven is a little absurd, but I thought I'd share my strange train of thought with you guys and see where it led.

[Tempest Fennac]

I think it's only really up to the Deva who handles the cases of LG people (as she said, Eugene gave up on the BOoV years before he died, and he didn't even bother with trying to fulfill it when he knew he was going to die of old age). I find it worrying that he would have gotten in if that wasn't a problem based on how he seems to be asolidly True Neutral rather then LG to me.

[Optimystik]

Now, what if his eventual admission has as much to do with his beliefs that Good (and Expediency in the Pursuit of Good) trumps Law as it does with the "objective" rules as outlined in the rulebook? Does this mean that Eugene is kept out, not because of an actual technicality, but because, deep down, he knows he shouldn't because he let the Blood Oath slide? He does cry out that "it's not fair" that Roy gets to go in while he doesn't. Does that reflect as much on his belief about himself (ie, he didn't live up to an important obligation) as it does on his feelings about his son?

Eugene is an interesting study. Oaths aside, I peg him as Chaotic Neutral, and that more than anything else is what is keeping him out of Celestia.

He's in a hell (or more accurately, a purgatory) of his own making. We've seen that the Powers That Be can circumvent his piddly little Blood Oath with ease... so why wouldn't they do so if he truly belonged on the Mountain? The answer lies in his reasons for swearing it in the first place, which were very spur-of-the-moment and quite unnecessary to boot.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) we see Mama Greenhilt saying he "gave up" the Blood Oath when his attention got diverted. He drifts from pursuit to pursuit depending on what holds his attention for a time (even marriage) before moving on - the only reason he's interested in the Oath now is because the Celestials are holding him to it. The Oath also bound his innocent children to the pursuit of Xykon, which I deem a very selfish act. With both his character and actions keeping him away from Celestia, I think the only reason he's even up on the clouds is that he was dedicated to fighting evil, however misguided his reasons were.

[Fri]

And we don't know what did Eugene do back then when alive. We only know his bad side, he act like a jerk to his son (because he want his son to be a wizard. We could argue that it's because eugene's relationship to his father that want his son to be more physically active) and didn't finish his blood oath.

Eugene could spend his free time killing liches other than xykon, saving damsels in distress, freeing villagers from evil overlords, and we wouldn't know. He died a couple of time, you remember? I don't think he died again and again because of kitchen accidents.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think the only reason he's even up on the clouds is that he was dedicated to fighting evil, however misguided his reasons were.

True. It's an inversion of "The Road to Hell is Paved with good intentions": The powers that be don't usually care about your motivations for performing an act. They only care about whether the act was good or evil.

[King of Nowhere]

It seems instead that the powers on oots look intentions much more than in other worlds, otherwise Roy would be in NG.
I think Eugene was a much better man than he seems, and that in the comic we got to see his worst sides. OTOOPC and SoD give some hints of that.
I mean, we see his difficult relationship with Roy, but that's because Roy wanted to be a fighter and Eugene considered that a bad thing for him. It's not uncommon for a parent to attempt to railroad a son to what the parent consider a rich and fulfilling life. It's like a medic that wanted his son to study medicine and be a rich and respected professionist, and his son leave school at 14 to become a mason. Most parents would try to force him back to school, believing it is for his own good. Even if I think it is wrong to railroad someone's life, I see that as an act of love, spurred by the belief that there is one right way of growing, and thus a LG act.
In otoopc we see that Eugene go to Roy's college and try to fix things between the two of them, but it is Roy that wants to keep the grudge. Perfectly understandable, and with Eugene's poor diplomacy he couldn't expect more, but still he tried. And he didn't ask Roy to fulfill the oath for him. He asks for Roy to tell Julia of the oath. It is Roy that takes it upon himself.
Finally, in SoD, we see that Eugene leaves the oaath to stand with his family, at least in the beginning, and will not try to go affter Xykon again because he fear that if he failed (which would have happened, given that Xykon had 5-6 levels on him, and liches powers), Xykon could track down his family.
And yes, he WAS a pompous jerk, but because he thinks that he is an important wizard and that's the right way of behaving for mighty wizards.
So my ultimate opinion on him is that Eugene, like Roy, was fundamentally a good man who had a few problem due to bad relationship with his father and possibly other childs, but, unlike Roy, he never had the inner strength to overome that. But he did nothing too bad to not be forgiven.

Or it may just be that I have too much faith in other people.

[Lissibith]

I think Eugene was a much better man than he seems, and that in the comic we got to see his worst sides. OTOOPC and SoD give some hints of that.
I mean, we see his difficult relationship with Roy, but that's because Roy wanted to be a fighter and Eugene considered that a bad thing for him. It's not uncommon for a parent to attempt to railroad a son to what the parent consider a rich and fulfilling life.

Except that in SoD we see Eugene takes not even a passing interest in his son's pastimes. Soccer may be a physical activity, but it's not really a firm career choice. And Eugene? Didn't. Even. Care. Not to understand it, not to be there, not to even know enough not to attempt to make his young son feel foolish for playing.

Frankly, if I'd listened to my parents have that conversation about something I was happily involved in, I would have been mortified that I ever liked it to begin with. But Roy's reaction suggests this is not the first or only thing wherein Eugene's felt the need to not only ignore but disparage what other people do - even his own child.

He didn't appear to want what was best for Roy, he wanted what he wanted. You might argue his conversation with Right-Eye shows a familial duty. I just saw it as a convenient excuse.

That said, I do agree Eugene gets a bit of a bum rap. While selfishness and caprice like his make for an absolutely terrible father, they're not inherently bad things. He's not out trying to make things worse, as Roy seems to think. It's more that he's just disregarded (almost all) other people's interests as inferior to his own.

[King of Nowhere]

Except that in SoD we see Eugene takes not even a passing interest in his son's pastimes. Soccer may be a physical activity, but it's not really a firm career choice. And Eugene? Didn't. Even. Care. Not to understand it, not to be there, not to even know enough not to attempt to make his young son feel foolish for playing.

Frankly, if I'd listened to my parents have that conversation about something I was happily involved in, I would have been mortified that I ever liked it to begin with. But Roy's reaction suggests this is not the first or only thing wherein Eugene's felt the need to not only ignore but disparage what other people do - even his own child.

He didn't appear to want what was best for Roy, he wanted what he wanted. You might argue his conversation with Right-Eye shows a familial duty. I just saw it as a convenient excuse.



The football part just support my interpretation: Eugene believes that his son must become a serious wizards, and serious and mighty wizards have no time nor interest for trivial entertainments like football. Therefore he wanted for Roy to leave it, believing it for good. He obviously was wrong, but he didn't do it due to lack of interest for his son.
Eugene's felt the need to not only ignore but disparage what other people do - even his own child is because he disparages everything that is not magic. It would be like if you find your son using drugs. To Eugene using drugs or wasting time that could be used studying magic by playing football is more or less the same thing (by the way, I think Eugene has an abysmal wisdom. It is a prerequisite to have a viewing of the world like that). About magic, Eugene has the sort of fanatism that Miko has when it ccomes to fight evil.

And I don't think he was trying excuses with Right-Eye: a mighy wizard don't need to explain his actions to a lowly goblin, so if it was really lack of interest he could have teleported away without answering (and would have been totally in character). I seem to see real concern on his face, but in a stick figure is not clear.

[Lissibith]

Yay! We derailed the thread! My books are on loan, so I could well be wrong about this. But

A. I'll agree he has a fanatical attachment to magic. But IMO, that's pretty much it. Roy doesn't seem to really interest him beyond that, ie that he be a wizard. For me personally, his insistence on Roy using magic never once feels like "this is what's best for you." It feels like "This is what I want you to do, and as my spawn there's no debate here."

Actually, now that I think about it, I half think the reason he wants Roy to be a magic user isn't that it's best for him, but that it would somehow justify his OWN decision to use magic against his own father's wishes. I think he certainly loves his family in some weird way, but certainly not a healthy way.

As for Right-Eye, I think claiming you don't have people to adventure with in a tavern pretty much equals an excuse. A bad one. Eugene doesn't strike me as the kind to pull punches if he felt simply listening to Right-Eye was beneath him. So it read to me as he knows what he should do and was just looking for reasons - any reasons - not to do it.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a really good point about Eugene dying repeatedly. It is likely that he was actually attempting to do good things on those occasions.

[OOTS_Echoes]

I thought I'd share my strange train of thought with you guys and see where it led.

Heh. You're train of thought. On the train. It seems something that the afterlife would do. Like you said. Because Eugene might believe he shouldn't be let in, he isn't. Kinda like the whole, you fail because you you believe you won't succeed.

[Optimystik]

Heh. You're train of thought. On the train. It seems something that the afterlife would do. Like you said. Because Eugene might believe he shouldn't be let in, he isn't. Kinda like the whole, you fail because you you believe you won't succeed.

That would be fine, except Roy didn't believe he should get in either, and he did.

[OOTS_Echoes]

Hmm, it was actually Eugene who said he shouldn't be allowed in. Unless I'm mistaken or mis-reading. It's comic 485+ where Roy gets to the afterlife, so I'll re-read them once its morning again

[Optimystik]

Hmm, it was actually Eugene who said he shouldn't be allowed in. Unless I'm mistaken or mis-reading. It's comic 485+ where Roy gets to the afterlife, so I'll re-read them once its morning again

Roy was hardly begging for admission - he was resigned to life on the cloud until Julia got the job done. He was also surprised when they waived it.

[OOTS_Echoes]

Ah well. Interesting thought.

[whitelaughter]

granted we are seeing Eugene from Roy's perspective (and who can really look dispassionately at their parents?) but I still suspect that when Xykon is finally destroyed, Eugene is going to be told that: no, he can't enter Celestia.

[snoopy13a]

Eugene is unpleasant towards Roy but altrutistic people can also be jerks. We really don't know Eugene's whole story so we can't be in a position to judge. It is possible that Eugene was a do-gooder adventurer who simply wasn't a good father.

[Optimystik]

granted we are seeing Eugene from Roy's perspective (and who can really look dispassionately at their parents?) but I still suspect that when Xykon is finally destroyed, Eugene is going to be told that: no, he can't enter Celestia.

Hopefully by then he will:

a) Have had an epiphany that would make him see the error of his ways,

b) Have come to realize that he is not, in fact, LG and accept another afterlife away from the limbo-cloud.

But you're right, he has no place in Celestia as he is.

[Assassin89]

Hopefully by then he will:

a) Have had an epiphany that would make him see the error of his ways,

b) Have come to realize that he is not, in fact, LG and accept another afterlife away from the limbo-cloud.

But you're right, he has no place in Celestia as he is.

If Eugene does have an epiphany, the circumstances should be along the lines of finishing what he start himself.

[Optimystik]

If Eugene does have an epiphany, the circumstances should be along the lines of finishing what he start himself.

I'd rather it be about helping his children do something they want to do - something totally unrelated to his own personal vendetta. Even now he doesn't care what they do with their (after)lives aside from fulfilling The Oath.

[Assassin89]

I'd rather it be about helping his children do something they want to do - something totally unrelated to his own personal vendetta. Even now he doesn't care what they do with their (after)lives aside from fulfilling The Oath.
If would be humorous if Celestia forced Eugene to complete everything he did not finish (projects, raising a child) by creating a time loop for Eugene before he is welcomed into Celestia.

[FrankNorman]

granted we are seeing Eugene from Roy's perspective (and who can really look dispassionately at their parents?) but I still suspect that when Xykon is finally destroyed, Eugene is going to be told that: no, he can't enter Celestia.

I find that doubtful.
The Celestials are Lawful Good beings, by definition. And they've been telling him he can't enter the LG afterlife because of the Blood Oath. If there were other reasons as well, they would have told him. They are NOT the kind of people to keep him hoping for years, and then finally, when Xykon is gone, turn around and say "Actually, we were just stringing you along, we never had any intention of letting you in at all!"

[Optimystik]

I find that doubtful.
The Celestials are Lawful Good beings, by definition. And they've been telling him he can't enter the LG afterlife because of the Blood Oath. If there were other reasons as well, they would have told him. They are NOT the kind of people to keep him hoping for years, and then finally, when Xykon is gone, turn around and say "Actually, we were just stringing you along, we never had any intention of letting you in at all!"

"Because of the Blood Oath" means they are keeping him out because he abandoned it, not because he was unsuccessful at it (as we clearly saw in Roy's case.) Xykon's destruction may not be enough to admit Eugene to Celestia, because it still wouldn't have been *him* to fulfill it. A narrow application of the law perhaps, but certainly still lawful.

[hamishspence]

Wording "I will not rest,(in this life or any other) until I or my descendants have wreaked vengeance" suggests his "ghostliness" ends, one way or another, with Xykon's death.

Depending on what The Giant chooses, they may take into accort subsequent acts committed after his death.

[Optimystik]

Wording "I will not rest,(in this life or any other) until I or my descendants have wreaked vengeance" suggests his "ghostliness" ends, one way or another, with Xykon's death.

Depending on what The Giant chooses, they may take into accort subsequent acts committed after his death.

Oh, I agree he will leave limbo, but that doesn't mean Celestia either. Quite frankly I peg Eugene as Chaotic with all his fickleness and subterfuge. Heck, getting into CG heaven will also satisfy his promise to Roy, to never look up Mrs. Greenhilt.

[hamishspence]

I'm incinded to say his Chaotic streak came out more after death, in SoD, his deva couldn't find much to object to apart from the Oath. Though its true, Deva didn't get to "what have you actually done thats Lawful, and Good?" which we saw Roy's asking.

[Optimystik]

I'm incinded to say his Chaotic streak came out more after death, in SoD, his deva couldn't find much to object to apart from the Oath. Though its true, Deva didn't get to "what have you actually done thats Lawful, and Good?" which we saw Roy's asking.

I'd call that an oversight - he was Chaotic in life too. From Mama Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html): "He rarely sees any one project through to the end. He gets bored and refocuses his attention elsewhere...It's the same with this Xykon character...he gave it up to pursue other interests." Definitely Chaotic behavior.