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Xanos
2008-12-10, 07:03 PM
Hey hey.
So, I'm the ST for a group o' 4 semi-unexperienced players. Basicly, they're Sabbat who're infiltrating the Camarilla. They're going to be dead-set on assassinating the Primogen, and my question is: Is this even remotely imaginable?


So far, the group looks as if it's going to consist of: A Lasombra, a Malkavian, a Brujah and a Nosferatu.

That being said, they have a Mystery Chick, a Battlefield Control, a frontline Warrior and the Info-gatherer.

Assuming they have no Disciplines over dot 3, is it plausable for them to take down a Primogen 1 by 1, of Vampires of at least 200 years of age (short of the Gangrel, who's like, Fledgeling)?

The Primogen consists of:
Brujah
Toreador
Tremere
Ventrue
Gangrel
Nosferatu


I see them taking down the Brujah and Toreador. They're both pretty stereotypical: Brujah's a bit dump but strong. Outsmarting him is the game.
The Toreador's a Celerity pumper, but other than that, he's pretty weak.

But what about the rest? Is it plausible for 4 Ancilla to kill a 350 year old Tremere with several paths dot 3-4-5?

Nosferatu with Vanish From Mind's Eye?

Ventrue with security systems for his security systems?


Thougts / Comments would be greatly appreciated.

Aron Times
2008-12-10, 07:06 PM
They're Sabbat, so sacrificing minions should be alright with them. Have them create a horde of ghouls to attack the primogens in daylight. They'll probably get slaughtered, but Sabbat vampires usually don't care about this.

Xanos
2008-12-10, 07:09 PM
They're Sabbat, so sacrificing minions should be alright with them. Have them create a horde of ghouls to attack the primogens in daylight. They'll probably get slaughtered, but Sabbat vampires usually don't care about this.
Yea I thought about that, having ghouls blast the windows or some such. Only problem I can see with that is, Sabbat = Probably low in their respective paths. Thus, they rise late. Thus, someone noticed the Primogen was dead before the party wakes up. Dead ashes + Neutral Giovanni in town = Baaad. Bad. Baad.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-10, 07:12 PM
Hey hey.
So, I'm the ST for a group o' 4 semi-unexperienced players. Basicly, they're Sabbat who're infiltrating the Camarilla. They're going to be dead-set on assassinating the Primogen, and my question is: Is this even remotely imaginable?
Hahahaha!

In a word, no. In two words, hell no.

They're "semi-unexperienced". That's bad. They have no high disciplines. That's also bad. They're infiltrating. That, too, is bad. If the Sabbat was even remotely that good at eliminating primogen, there'd be no Camarilla left.

The term is "ancilla", by the way, not anchille.

Also, to succesfully infiltrate anything, you're going to need social skills. Malkavs, Brujah and Nosferatu are not particularly known for theirs...

Both Brujah and Gangrel would likely wipe the floor with them in combat, and both are likely to have allies. Toreador is likely to have lots 'n lots of allies, including other Kindred, because that's what Toreador do. Oh yeah, and he'll have Majesty running. Yes, you'll beat him in combat, but you'll never face him in combat. A 350-year-old tremere would likely have paths at dot 6 or maybe even 7. Even aside from that, Thaumaturgy is bad news. Let me paraphrase that, bad news. And anything with obfuscate 4+ they simply can't find.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 07:13 PM
If they can gang up on them, or take them out one at a time AND ARE SMART, sure. No problem. If they take them en masse, they're boned.

Also, that Tremere may give some issue. The Gangrel too, if they cross-Disciplined Potence or Celerity. But then again, Tremere and Gangrel pretty typically win when it comes to a throwdown. Nosferatu can be nasty, also, but you really got to cheese them with the Nos-only merits/flaws. Large Teeth + Blunt Teeth + Potence = hueg agg damage.

Krrth
2008-12-10, 07:13 PM
You said they are infiltrating the Camarilla? Have *any* of them commited diabarie?

As for a Tremere primogen, probably not. Most likely there is a Gargoyle nearby, and as I recall they can detect obfuscated beings in the building they protect.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 07:15 PM
You said they are infiltrating the Camarilla? Have *any* of them commited diabarie?

Point taken. Aura Sight is an automatic clarion on that one.

Xanos
2008-12-10, 07:21 PM
Also, to succesfully infiltrate anything, you're going to need social skills. Malkavs, Brujah and Nosferatu are not particularly known for theirs...
Well, obviously, there's plot behind them ending up as infiltrators. They're cammie gone rogue gone infiltration, and because of a healthy purging-rate in the Sabbat, they haven't been sold out. Yet.
And why-o-why would it require social skills? Heck, even without them having infiltrated, they could've just gotten floor-plans of their appartments and wired them up with explosions or ghould suicide bombers.




Both Brujah and Gangrel would likely wipe the floor with them in combat, and both are likely to have allies. Toreador is likely to have lots 'n lots of allies, including other Kindred, because that's what Toreador do. Oh yeah, and he'll have Majesty running. Yes, you'll beat him in combat, but you'll never face him in combat. A 350-year-old tremere would likely have paths at dot 6 or maybe even 7. Even aside from that, Thaumaturgy is bad news. Let me paraphrase that, bad news. And anything with obfuscate 4+ they simply can't find.
Yea, Brujah and Gangrel would wipe the floor with them. In a stand-up fight. Lasombra, Nosferatu, Malkavian? Not known for stand-up fighting.
And for the Toreador to throw up Majesty, he'd have to know they were there. Besides, Majesty isn't *that* bad, 1 willpower plus a none-botched roll with neglect the effect, right?
But the Tremere.. Yea. He could be none-battle focused, though. It's modern ages, information's more powerful than bloodboil / Lure of Flames. Sure, he'd have them, he's old and not stupid, but I wouldn't put them as his main focus.
Nosferatu with Obfuscate 4+ would take brains to find, at least. I wouldn't call it impossible. There's always the age-old trick involving a video camera being brought by a party member, and having one hang back and feed them information. Besides, you can't obfuscate your way out of lots and lots of fire.
But then, of course, there's the whole "He's a Nosferatu" thing. He'd probably be hard to find.



You said they are infiltrating the Camarilla? Have *any* of them commited diabarie?

As for a Tremere primogen, probably not. Most likely there is a Gargoyle nearby, and as I recall they can detect obfuscated beings in the building they protect.

None of them have comitted diablerie, which is why it's them infiltrating.


And hell no, no gargoyles. Only that woman in.. Ceoris? Crafting Gargoyles in Masquerade. Wouldn't want another Gargoyle Rebellion.






I think they could pull it off, if they were more experienced. I've played Vampire for a few years now, and I'm 100% I could exploit Vampire weaknesses to pull it off (kill 'em while they sleep, poison their herd, wiring the downstairs floor with explosives ect.). Problem is, can they as players having played Vampire somewhere between 1-4 times?

Krrth
2008-12-10, 07:25 PM
Well, obviously, there's plot behind them ending up as infiltrators. They're cammie gone rogue gone infiltration, and because of a healthy purging-rate in the Sabbat, they haven't been sold out. Yet.
And why-o-why would it require social skills? Heck, even without them having infiltrated, they could've just gotten floor-plans of their appartments and wired them up with explosions or ghould suicide bombers.



Yea, Brujah and Gangrel would wipe the floor with them. In a stand-up fight. Lasombra, Nosferatu, Malkavian? Not known for stand-up fighting.
And for the Toreador to throw up Majesty, he'd have to know they were there. Besides, Majesty isn't *that* bad, 1 willpower plus a none-botched roll with neglect the effect, right?
But the Tremere.. Yea. He could be none-battle focused, though. It's modern ages, information's more powerful than bloodboil / Lure of Flames. Sure, he'd have them, he's old and not stupid, but I wouldn't put them as his main focus.
Nosferatu with Obfuscate 4+ would take brains to find, at least. I wouldn't call it impossible. There's always the age-old trick involving a video camera being brought by a party member, and having one hang back and feed them information. Besides, you can't obfuscate your way out of lots and lots of fire.
But then, of course, there's the whole "He's a Nosferatu" thing. He'd probably be hard to find.


None of them have comitted diablerie, which is why it's them infiltrating.


And hell no, no gargoyles. Only that woman in.. Ceoris? Crafting Gargoyles in Masquerade. Wouldn't want another Gargoyle Rebellion.
Heh. Doesn't have to be a newgargoyle.
As for Diablerie, as I recall, some of the practices of the Sabbat cause a false positive.....since there are No Lasambra in the Camarilla, how do they explain that?

Xanos
2008-12-10, 07:28 PM
Heh. Doesn't have to be a newgargoyle.
As for Diablerie, as I recall, some of the practices of the Sabbat cause a false positive.....since there are No Lasambra in the Camarilla, how do they explain that?
There're some. Anti-tribu Lasombra exist. Read the un-official "clan" book, it's actually pretty cool.
It basicly states, that Lasombra's antedeluvian (who was pro Camarilla) is still alive, and is the puppeteer of the Sabbat, waiting for the perfect time to smite the none-believers of the Sabbat and rejoin his brethren within the Cammie.

And meh, I just tend to avoid gargoyles. They've the whole "Am I a being?" thing, and that ridicously stupid Gargoyle with Obeah snatched most of them in, what, the 19. century?

Kurald Galain
2008-12-10, 07:33 PM
Well, obviously, there's plot behind them ending up as infiltrators. They're cammie gone rogue gone infiltration, and because of a healthy purging-rate in the Sabbat, they haven't been sold out.
Ah, I was thinking of the social kind of infiltration. Still, they'll likely need some kind of network.



And for the Toreador to throw up Majesty, he'd have to know they were there. Besides, Majesty isn't *that* bad, 1 willpower plus a none-botched roll with neglect the effect, right?
No, it's always active. And yes, Majesty is that bad. Spending willpower isn't a good sign, and have you seen the difficulty of that roll, and how long it neglects the effect, and how many allies it gives him? (although this does depend on which edition of Vampire you're using) Why do you think Princes like Majesty so much?


There's always the age-old trick involving a video camera being brought by a party member, and having one hang back and feed them information.
It depends on your interpretation of the rules whether that would actually work - I would argue that it does not. Remember that obfuscate is intended as a psychological "ignore me!" effect.


I've played Vampire for a few years now, and I'm 100% I could exploit Vampire weaknesses to pull it off (kill 'em while they sleep, poison their herd, wiring the downstairs floor with explosives ect.).
Problem is, that's more than a little meta, and essentially relies on outsmarting your GM, or the GM overlooking that yes, long-lived vampires do have thought of that before, and do have contingency plans. Because if they didn't, however have they lived so long?


I stand by my statement that any primogen, anywhere, that could be offed by a small gang of neonate Sabbat would in fact already have been killed a long time ago.

Krrth
2008-12-10, 07:33 PM
There're some. Anti-tribu Lasombra exist. Read the un-official "clan" book, it's actually pretty cool.
It basicly states, that Lasombra's antedeluvian (who was pro Camarilla) is still alive, and is the puppeteer of the Sabbat, waiting for the perfect time to smite the none-believers of the Sabbat and rejoin his brethren within the Cammie.

And meh, I just tend to avoid gargoyles. They've the whole "Am I a being?" thing, and that ridicously stupid Gargoyle with Obeah snatched most of them in, what, the 19. century?

Yeah, I know about the Anti-Tribue. They are just so rare, most kindred have never heard of them. They'd have to do some serious explaining, and even then would most likely be under suspicion.

It's not as bad as the True-Brujah, or the Salubri, but still....

Anyways...I would expect them to loose vs/ the Tremere. The nossie will have obfuscate, true. But the Tremere has Auspex. Lure of flames is incredibly nasty. If he's really 350 years old, he could even be as low a generation as 7...as a pc.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 07:36 PM
Yea, Brujah and Gangrel would wipe the floor with them. In a stand-up fight.Yes.


Lasombra, Nosferatu, Malkavian? Not known for stand-up fighting.You're kidding, right? Lasombra and Nosferatu both get Potence, and Lasombra get Obtenebration. Obten + Potence = pain, and Potence + Obfuscate = Pain from the shadows.


And for the Toreador to throw up Majesty, he'd have to know they were there. Besides, Majesty isn't *that* bad, 1 willpower plus a none-botched roll with neglect the effect, right? Negates for one turn.


But the Tremere.. Yea. He could be none-battle focused, though. It's modern ages, information's more powerful than bloodboil / Lure of Flames. Sure, he'd have them, he's old and not stupid, but I wouldn't put them as his main focus. Modern age? Path of the Leavenbolt is amazing. Power small appliances! Electrocute your enemies! Impersonate Emperor Palpatine!


Nosferatu with Obfuscate 4+ would take brains to find, at least. I wouldn't call it impossible. There's always the age-old trick involving a video camera being brought by a party member, and having one hang back and feed them information. Besides, you can't obfuscate your way out of lots and lots of fire. Higher Obfu works vs. things that don't have minds.

Also, what's the coven makeup? I mean, if you've got a Salubri Antitribu, you've got a powerhouse on your hands with Valeren. Lasombra's strong too, as is a well-built City Gangrel, a Assimite with Potence cross-Disc, or any form of Tzimisce. Hell, don't forget Tremere Antitribu: they DO exist.

Xanos
2008-12-10, 07:41 PM
Anyways...I would expect them to loose vs/ the Tremere. The nossie will have obfuscate, true. But the Tremere has Auspex. Lure of flames is incredibly nasty. If he's really 350 years old, he could even be as low a generation as 7...as a pc.
Luckily, there isn't a chantry in town. Then they would be very, very screwed.

They bane will be spike damage. A Brujah with Potence and Celerity, acting 4 turns in their 1-2? Hitting for at least 4-5 lethal / round? Dead vampires, very, very quickly. Same with the Tremere, who'll at least have Lure of Flames to the point where he can reliably deal at least a few Aggravated per turn.

So, what would the least lame way be to deal with the Tremere?

I'm reluctant in sending along a .. STNPC? with Counter-Thaumaturgy, even though the party probably would think it was pretty cool. Artifacts and the likes? No way. Never. Ever.
Also, the Tremere would have a bunch of rituals having about his haven as he sleeps, making it impossible to kill him during the day. Wards against ghouls are, what, second level rituals? Anti-sun is first.

So assassination during the night would be the most plausible option.
He's a Tremere, and he's full of himself. Hitting him at range would be sweet, he's fragile for a 350 year old vampire, meaning 3x 3 Lethal damage would probably best his low Stamina and soaking abilities. Two shots with a sniper rifle, for example.
But.. Only the Brujah can shoot a gun. And then there's the logistic problems with sniping.



Yes.

You're kidding, right? Lasombra and Nosferatu both get Potence, and Lasombra get Obtenebration. Obten + Potence = pain, and Potence + Obfuscate = Pain from the shadows.
Yea, I know. But the Lasombra's Mystery Girl, and not focused on stand-up fighting. Nosferatu is pooling his Discipline-points into Obfuscate, and is going for Knowledges and social contacts.



Negates for one turn.
Fight probably shouldn't last more than a few turns anyway. All of them should have enough to keep at least 3 of the party members standing for 3 turns.



Modern age? Path of the Leavenbolt is amazing. Power small appliances! Electrocute your enemies! Impersonate Emperor Palpatine!
Tremere won't be faced in stand-up. They'll die. Horribly.



Higher Obfu works vs. things that don't have minds.

Really? Would love to see where that's from. As far as I can tell from the general rulebook, Obfuscate doesn't work through cameras.




Also, what's the coven makeup? I mean, if you've got a Salubri Antitribu, you've got a powerhouse on your hands with Valeren. Lasombra's strong too, as is a well-built City Gangrel, a Assimite with Potence cross-Disc, or any form of Tzimisce. Hell, don't forget Tremere Antitribu: they DO exist.
They're going those 4 and no one else.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 07:46 PM
So, what would the least lame way be to deal with the Tremere?

Find someone from a local mage's chapter? Hire someone in the Technocracy? Drop hints to some wolfkin, who pass it to their werewolf bretheren? Play some of the other Primogen (or the Prince!) against him? Hire a questionably-moraled hunter?

There are ways.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-10, 07:46 PM
So, what would the least lame way be to deal with the Tremere?
That would be to either posit that there isn't one (substitute another tribe) or having him caught in politics.

See, the problem is that the party isn't playing to the Camarilla's weak point: infighting.



Also, the Tremere would have a bunch of rituals having about his haven as he sleeps, making it impossible to kill him during the day. Wards against ghouls are, what, second level rituals? Anti-sun is first.
There's also Wake With Evening's Freshness (lets the Tremere automatically wake up if disturbed during daytime), and there's an even funnier one, which simply states that whenever intruders enter his haven, it is now nightfall. Wait, how did that happen? :smallbiggrin:

Xanos
2008-12-10, 07:50 PM
Find someone from a local mage's chapter? Hire someone in the Technocracy? Drop hints to some wolfkin, who pass it to their werewolf bretheren? Play some of the other Primogen (or the Prince!) against him? Hire a questionably-moraled hunter?

There are ways.
Though Magi hate Tremere, the group is Vampires. I'd pretty much enfore the "Bloodsuckers? Kill 'em with Fire!" before questions are asked. Same with Werewolves.
Politics will be pain, as they're Anchilla, and no one ever listens to an Anchilla. They'd have to come up with something pretty clever to pull it off, which I doubt they will.



See, the problem is that the party isn't playing to the Camarilla's weak point: infighting.
They're newbies, they still have to get the feel of the game.



There's also Wake With Evening's Freshness (lets the Tremere automatically wake up if disturbed during daytime), and there's an even funnier one, which simply states that whenever intruders enter his haven, it is now nightfall. Wait, how did that happen? :smallbiggrin:
Obviously, a Tremere did it. :p.

Cathaidan
2008-12-10, 07:51 PM
Look, it doesn't matter what you're playing, it is possible to take down Primogen. Its just that you have to smart about it. If I have said it once, I've said it a thousand times, the PLAN is everything when dealing with vampires older than you.

The easiest way for anyone to take down Primogen (without it coming back to bite them in the ass of coarse) is to spend a few years propping one Primogen up over the others. Once the others start to look at the top dog with nothing but jealousy, its time to make a deal. A little information leak here, a little retainer removal there, and you have two Primogen throwing down in a shadow-war that you've started. Two man enter, one man leave. But even with this strategy, I'd only give it a 1 in 9 success rate. Primogen are old, they know the political game and they've been playing for decades, they can usually see through this type of thing.

Anything even remotely resembling a frontal assault should fail miserably. You don't live to be 200 without knowing how to plan for a frontal assault, having a back up plan for when your original plan fails and having a back up plan for when your back up plan fails.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 07:54 PM
Though Magi hate Tremere, the group is Vampires. I'd pretty much enfore the "Bloodsuckers? Kill 'em with Fire!" before questions are asked. Same with Werewolves.
Politics will be pain, as they're Anchilla, and no one ever listens to an Anchilla. They'd have to come up with something pretty clever to pull it off, which I doubt they will.

Well, do any of them have dots in Contacts? Dots in Allies? Anyone got a Ghoul? Send in the minions. Vampiretaint can be the result of as little as being fed upon by one: a well-thought story can convince a mage or 'wolf that the person in question is merely an unfortunate victim.

Xanos
2008-12-10, 07:55 PM
Look, it doesn't matter what you're playing, it is possible to take down Primogen. Its just that you have to smart about it. If I have said it once, I've said it a thousand times, the PLAN is everything when dealing with vampires older than you.

The easiest way for anyone to take down Primogen (without it coming back to bite them in the ass of coarse) is to spend a few years propping one Primogen up over the others. Once the others start to look at the top dog with nothing but jealousy, its time to make a deal. A little information leak here, a little retainer removal there, and you have two Primogen throwing down in a shadow-war that you've started. Two man enter, one man leave. But even with this strategy, I'd only give it a 1 in 9 success rate. Primogen are old, they know the political game and they've been playing for decades, they can usually see through this type of thing.

Anything even remotely resembling a frontal assault should fail miserably. You don't live to be 200 without knowing how to plan for a frontal assault, having a back up plan for when your original plan fails and having a back up plan for when your back up plan fails.
It'll be too impending for them to wait a few years.

Hm. I wouldn't put it past the Primogen to be caught up in their old ways. They're always well prepared, sure. But when you've dealt with politics for the last X years, you only really deal with the diablerie guys every once in a while.
I dunno, I don't envision the Sabbat as being masterminded enough to strike smart. Sure, they can raid, sure, they raid good once they do. But exploiting weaknesses instead of using their own strength? Not their style.



Well, do any of them have dots in Contacts? Dots in Allies? Anyone got a Ghoul? Vampiretaint can be the result of as little as being fed upon by one: a well-thought story can convince a mage or 'wolf that the person in question is merely an unfortunate victim.
Seems a little.. Weak. There's a big difference in being bitten by a vampire, and being a none-breathing dead walking corpse. Mages will probably see through it, and Garou will just give you a good nose-over.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 08:06 PM
Contacts/Allies/Ghouls are all still-living real-world counterparts: there's nothing that says they have to be vampires. In particular, ghouls are merely regular people who're addicted to vampire blood. They're still alive.

Cathaidan
2008-12-10, 08:07 PM
It'll be too impending for them to wait a few years.

Hm. I wouldn't put it past the Primogen to be caught up in their old ways. They're always well prepared, sure. But when you've dealt with politics for the last X years, you only really deal with the diablerie guys every once in a while.
I dunno, I don't envision the Sabbat as being masterminded enough to strike smart. Sure, they can raid, sure, they raid good once they do. But exploiting weaknesses instead of using their own strength? Not their style.


With the Sabbat its all a matter of what you're dealing with. Assuming you are running with the Harbringers of Skulls actually being the surviving Cappadocians, then yes, they know how to plot and scheme. The Serpents of Light, I mean really, no matter what they call themselves a Setite's hiding in the corner, hoping the others won't hit them in the face is a type of scheming. And then there's the whole Lasombra clan. I mean, they are supposed to be the tactical masterminds that can rival anyone, or have we forgotten how they took over the church in the Dark Ages.

Bottom line, Sabbat can plan and scheme better than the kindred of the Camarilla, because if they don't, a Tzimisce will eat their face off.

Xanos
2008-12-10, 08:11 PM
Contacts/Allies/Ghouls are all still-living real-world counterparts: there's nothing that says they have to be vampires. In particular, ghouls are merely regular people who're addicted to vampire blood. They're still alive.
Hm.. Perhaps it's just the experienced Vampire player talking, but it would be a cold day in hell before I let a contact / ghoul do my business with Mages or Garou.
But I suppose they'd attempt that. Got to drop some plot hooks in the mage/Garou direction so they know they exist, though.




With the Sabbat its all a matter of what you're dealing with. Assuming you are running with the Harbringers of Skulls actually being the surviving Cappadocians, then yes, they know how to plot and scheme. The Serpents of Light, I mean really, no matter what they call themselves a Setite's hiding in the corner, hoping the others won't hit them in the face is a type of scheming. And then there's the whole Lasombra clan. I mean, they are supposed to be the tactical masterminds that can rival anyone, or have we forgotten how they took over the church in the Dark Ages.

Bottom line, Sabbat can plan and scheme better than the kindred of the Camarilla, because if they don't, a Tzimisce will eat their face off.
Well, depends on how much communication is going on between the packs and the guys above. There isn't a Lasombra / Harbinger of Skull mastermind for every single mission, so the packs are most likely left to their own plans. In most cases, where a pack consists of Neonates / Ancilla, scheming and masterminding is far-fetched.

Besides, I wouldn't want to be the ST telling them exactly what to do and how to do it. They have to learn to think for themselves. I just want to post a challenge for them, but I want it to be beat-able within their ability-array.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 08:15 PM
Hm.. Perhaps it's just the experienced Vampire player talking, but it would be a cold day in hell before I let a contact / ghoul do my business with Mages or Garou.
But I suppose they'd attempt that. Got to drop some plot hooks in the mage/Garou direction so they know they exist, though.

Sometimes, there is no other option besides sending in the minions.

Xanos
2008-12-10, 08:19 PM
Sometimes, there is no other option besides sending in the minions.
True, true. I wouldn't put it past them to attempt this, and I might just let it slide. But then it would be a Mage covanent or a Garou pack facing off an old Tremere. Speaking of experience, it can go both ways. Unless I make the Mages / Garou ridiciously overpowered.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 08:24 PM
True, true. I wouldn't put it past them to attempt this, and I might just let it slide. But then it would be a Mage covanent or a Garou pack facing off an old Tremere. Speaking of experience, it can go both ways. Unless I make the Mages / Garou ridiciously overpowered.

Well, the other thing is, the mages/garou aren't dumb: they may well take the offer from the minion, follow through on the hit on the Tremere, and then follow the minion back to the coven: now the players have to deal with a pack of 'wolves or a covenant of mages...or, worse, the Technocracy. Sure, Mr. Tremere is gone, but now they've got bigger problems.

Hell, the PCs could stay nearby the fight between Mr. Tremere and Their Hired Help and then mop up the survivors--surely in an epic fight, the 'wolves'll burn through their rage, Tremere will burn through his blood, etc., making them easier targets to take out.

Cathaidan
2008-12-10, 08:25 PM
Besides, I wouldn't want to be the ST telling them exactly what to do and how to do it. They have to learn to think for themselves. I just want to post a challenge for them, but I want it to be beat-able within their ability-array.

There is a vast difference between telling them exactly what to do and punishing them for making foolish mistakes. Actions such as taking out power players in town, for most games anyway, is a very long term goal. As such your players should have to sit down and think about this from many angles before they succeed. They should have a detailed idea about who they are after, where the target is likely to be, what powers the target is likely to have, what escape routes the target is likely to choose, what back up the target will have, etc. Then they should also have plans for when the first few attempts fail miserably, how do they prevent the ramifications from falling back onto them.

After STing for three different LARPs and a few TT games, the one complaint that I have about most players is that they don't take the time to logically think about the actions they are about to take before they take them. They rely on their stats and their cool powers to save the day for them. The fact of the matter is that when you are talking about knocking off elders who are over 200 years old then they've seen your powers before, they have a rough idea of how they work and they know how to deal with punk neonates/ancilla that think they're hot stuff because they just learned some new trick.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that taking out Primogen should be impossible, but it really is the type of thing that should take a long time, should involve many sessions worth of executing minor plans that aid the PC's in getting one step closer to taking down the Primogen and should punish them for reckless behavior. (Besides, the Sabbat uses shovel-heads when they're doing reckless things, and usually those are just a cover for what the pack is actually doing behind the scenes.)

Fax Celestis
2008-12-10, 08:32 PM
Keep in mind I'm not saying that taking out Primogen should be impossible, but it really is the type of thing that should take a long time, should involve many sessions worth of executing minor plans that aid the PC's in getting one step closer to taking down the Primogen and should punish them for reckless behavior. (Besides, the Sabbat uses shovel-heads when they're doing reckless things, and usually those are just a cover for what the pack is actually doing behind the scenes.)

Alternatively, it should be something that exploits a weakness of the particular Primogen.

...like being an Ananasi with the Scent of the Other merit, infiltrating vampire society, and then leading the severely arachnophobic Malkavian Primogen into a den of your bretheren.

That was a good day at that LARP. A good day.

Leewei
2008-12-10, 10:10 PM
So, I'm the ST for a group o' 4 semi-unexperienced players. Basicly, they're Sabbat who're infiltrating the Camarilla. They're going to be dead-set on assassinating the Primogen, and my question is: Is this even remotely imaginable?

Imaginable? Certainly. In doing so, they'll be the unwilling tools of one of a rival primogen, one or two senior sabbat, a methuselah or two and an antediluvian, each of which will show up at a later date to collect on the "favors" they lent (probably in the form of information, good or otherwise) to the PCs to get the job done.

amanamana
2008-12-10, 10:26 PM
The question is: do you make these Primogen vampires go outdoor? Do they have places they got to be, usually? Because, if so, any of them could be taken down with the right amount of patience, arrangements, explosives and large sniper rifles! The only problem would be, usually, the Nosferatu, with his high offuscation and low-profile habits...
You don't even have to be a vampire or have any supernatural power, as long as you have knowledge of the habits of your prey.:smallamused:

comicshorse
2008-12-11, 12:03 AM
Technology is your friend. Old Vampires tend to be hide-bound and adapt poorly to modern technology. Yes they can have Ghouls who keep them up to date but most old Kindred will be suspicious about letting even their ghouls know enough to be really effective. Which also makes killing or ( if possible ) subverting their ghouls a good first step.
Also as said look for their weakness. Toreador will usually have a favourite type of prey, provide one doped to the gills will go a long way to levelling the playing field. ( LSD is good for this it takes a couple of hours to kick in so the mortal shouldn't show any obvious signs when the Toreador snacks down on them)

leperkhaun
2008-12-11, 12:18 AM
one on one, or even all of them v one primogen.

I wouldnt count on it. Remember after they hit the first one or two the other primogen will make it a priority to take them out, or at least will beef up their security.

Now if they carried a couple gernades full auto weapons, burn down the haven during daylight, use an army of ghouls with said weapons. Use terrorist tactics, convince your newly turned vamps that nothing will really hurt them (have the guy with fort show them). Have them suicide bomb primogen with truckloads of explosives. Then yes they could.

Just remember when the top brass starts getting knocked off, they arnt going to sit back and let that happen (unless they think you will do their dirty work for them and they wont get hit). Start causing major mayhem, hit the important camilla targets, convince the general camilla vamp populus that the prince and primogen cant protect them against the sabbat and let THEM take out their own leaders. Do stupid vampire stuff and alert the Hunters to the presence of vampires (the real hunters with True Faith), get out of town and come back in a couple years. Just be really carefull about that hunters backfire easily.

Also remind them that giving the primogen final death is only ONE way to take them out. They could wage a campaign to discredit or ruin the primogen with having face to face fang to fang combat.

Just remember the first one or two will be realitivly easy, the others not so much. Also dont overdo it, you dont want the prince to call in the big guns (major elders or justicars and their crew).

Kurald Galain
2008-12-11, 05:29 AM
Vampiretaint can be the result of as little as being fed upon by one: a well-thought story can convince a mage or 'wolf that the person in question is merely an unfortunate victim.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the Garou's Sense Wyrm gift detects ghouls and vamps, but not "people who have been bitten once".

One problem with involving the Magi or the Garou is that they will likely cause all or most vampires in the city to (temporarily) unite against the external threat.



Also as said look for their weakness. Toreador will usually have a favourite type of prey,
That's Ventrue.

Quincunx
2008-12-11, 07:22 AM
Alternatively, it should be something that exploits a weakness of the particular Primogen.

...like being an Ananasi with the Scent of the Other merit, infiltrating vampire society, and then leading the severely arachnophobic Malkavian Primogen into a den of your bretheren.

That was a good day at that LARP. A good day.

There's also something to be said for cocooning the Malkavian in the Umbra where no vampire is ever going to be able to reach. Getting the Lasombra blamed for the abduction was just icing on the werespider's cake. (Y'know that principle about Malkavian information? "Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's valuable"?)

I'm not sure how you will make it plain to your players that they need to use proxies. Sure you could beat them up in a straight fight, turn them loose, and then flood them with NPCs from a variety of causes proclaiming sympathy, but plan B will still probably be "more fire".

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-11, 07:38 AM
I really don't see how this is going to work unless the Primogen don't act like vampires who have been around for centuries.

First of all, their Havens should not be common knowledge. Or even uncommon knowledge. You should have to pull in some favors with the High Jihad players to even find the general location of these Havens. This is why you'll need high social skills to pull this off - it's not like these locations are written down somewhere. Too easy to steal!

Secondly, you would have to get by their static defenses around these Havens. Just finding the Nos Haven is probably impossible - who else aside from the Nos know the ins and outs of these dark places? The Tremere is going to have wards and rituals out the ears, and the Ventrue and the Toreador should have an army of loyal servants and defenders to make sure nobody disturbs them. Hell, even the Brujah should be hard to find, much less penetrate - ancient revolutionaries are notoriously paranoid.

Now, if you want to make these Primogen stupid, then by all means do so. I would ask how they survived this long with the Camarilla's notorious infighting if a bunch of ancilla can track down their Havens and pierce their defenses. It's not like the party would be the first folks to try and off them in the past couple hundred years.

The best way you could go about doing this is by adding a Puppetmaster. Have the PCs be guided, either overtly or covertly, by some powerful entity within the Camarilla that wants all these Primogen dead. He can find out where these Havens are, what the weak points in their security are (or make some weak points), and also provide helpful tools and distractions the whole way.


The Gangrel is likely easiest; young-ish and likely a loner. Bad comes to worst, throw in some Black Spiral Dancers for support... or regular Werewolves, if you desire.

Toreador? Lure him out with the offer of some particular pleasure he desires and let the PCs jump him.

Brujah? If he's as dumb as you say, have him "recruit" the PCs for a couple of runs, and then once they've reached his confidences, kill him.

Tremere? A tip off to the local Euthanatos has left his mystic resources otherwise focused. A stab in the back is called for.

The Nos and the Ventrue will be the hardest to off. The Nos because they don't trust or associate with anyone. The Ventrue because, well, Ventrue are tough to kill and tend to have lots of money. I'd leave the Ventrue to the end - perhaps the other Primogen are his main allies? - and take out the Nos via a good old fashioned dungeon crawl.

But what you have here isn't an adventure, or even a chronicle. This is like several years worth of gaming right there, not to mention the PCs attempts to figure out who is pulling the strings, and why he's doing it. If you want to do this, I suggest you treat it with the full gravity that tearing down a whole faction within the Camarilla should possess.

potatocubed
2008-12-11, 08:23 AM
In my experience of Vampire, vampires killing other vampires is just like people killing people. The act is easy - especially with fire, automatic weapons and/or gratuitous amounts of explosives - but then you have to get away with it. Which is so very, very hard.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-11, 03:38 PM
In my experience of Vampire, vampires killing other vampires is just like people killing people. The act is easy - especially with fire, automatic weapons and/or gratuitous amounts of explosives - but then you have to get away with it. Which is so very, very hard.

It's easy if you can get to them.

Unlike mortals, vampires have centuries to figure out how to kill others and not be killed themselves. Additionally, they constantly expect to be attacked by some other force if they're anything in vampire society. For example, what Ventrue Primogen is going to have his coffin in anything but a bomb shelter? Specifically one that nobody knows exists? And wouldn't he be keeping an ear out for potential assassination plots, and keep only ghoul'd bodyguards in his inner sanctum?

Hell, he might even have a Blood Bonded childer whose sole purpose is to coordinate that defense during the early hours of the night.

In my experience, that has been the hardest part about hunting in Vampire: vampires are very good at hiding if they need to, and can construct really elaborate defenses once you factor in unlimited time, compound interest, and absolutely loyal minions. If you need to assassinate a vampire, you have to do it while he is at his least defended - when he is out and about, doing his business.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-11, 05:25 PM
vampires are very good at hiding if they need to, and can construct really elaborate defenses once you factor in unlimited time, compound interest, and absolutely loyal minions.

True enough. Furthermore, if things get too hot for whatever reason, vampires can easily seal themselves in, Earth Meld, or hide on the bottom of the ocean and simply wait for a year. It's not like they're getting any older.

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-12, 12:28 PM
the words semi unexperienced doom them to fail

plan of best action:
get i good with most ambitious sub primogen clan powerhouse. almost every clan has one person who wants power. make some arrangements with them get them a little rise in stature,

get them high enough in the clan structure, then frame them on an attack with a clan the two current bosses have goign against each other. as they fued a bit all other elders get ambtious try to find a way to power monger within each other. then see who is ripe for pickings.

do the players have any industy pull?

OverdrivePrime
2008-12-12, 02:27 PM
This thread reminds me of how much I used to hate hate hate the Tremere. 'Course I played a Gangrel in a very large, 4 year campaign, so that should be easy to understand.

Anyway, I think that with enough planning and resources your band of Sabbat rapscallions would be able to take out One of the primogen, so long as they don't tip their hand early and are able to get complete surprise and perfect conditions. After the one falls and they somehow get away, there is no Earthly chance that they'll be successful against a second, at least not without waiting fifteen years.

Primogen get to be primogen not only because of their power and resources, but also because they are some seriously paranoid and ruthless mothers. If your players manage to take out one of the Primogen, the rest of the primogen will hunt them to the ends of the Earth on the principle that it's better to kill your hunters before they can kill you. Surviving after the first kill will be the hardest part. May as well diablerize and then head for the hills, never to be seen again.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 02:57 PM
It's possible to win assuming the dice are on your side. Though as newer Sabbat members their tactics will consist of _run into fight_hit things. This can be used in a few ways though. You as the St could give them access to shotguns with dragonsbreath rounds and phospherous grenades. Those will give most vamps a bad day. Or they can go the mass destruction route and just blow up the elysium the next time the primogen is in attendence. Hell they may get more then one that way.

Though if they/you think the Toreador would be easy, well with Majesty and Dread Gaze. You start by making them spend willpower to attack automatically, then making contested rolls to keep from running away from you. Add celerity on top of that, you can run those 4 attackers down to 2 easly. Kill those and hunt down the other two at your leasure.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 03:07 PM
Or they can go the mass destruction route and just blow up the elysium the next time the primogen is in attendence.

One word: Fortitude.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 03:09 PM
One word: Fortitude.

Explosion = fire(usually) = Rots check = scared primogen running through the street (very possible)

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 03:10 PM
One word: Fortitude.

"Fortitude Seven. I soak."

Fawsto
2008-12-12, 03:12 PM
Have a Tiscimize (spelled it right?) War Machine popped inside the mansion in which your target lives (or unlives) and profit.


...


Now, things will never be that easy. Just joking.

First, I dare you to convince a good and old (¬¬) Tiscimize to help you. I'd give you 1 minute to convince him before he rips your ass out with pointy agravated damage bone claws.

Second, They are ancient Vampires. Someone as old as 200 years probably has a huge, and I mean really huge contact/information net. If things get even a little bit strange, those guys will know it and how to snuff it.

Third. Yeah, Cammies have problems when we talk about internal politics. They often struggle pretty hard. But now, if there are a few Primogens in a known area (I mean, something like, 2 of them in the entire West Coast, for example) they will probably have pacts between them. They know that an equal can bring problems, so they keep the "well fare pact" there. Besides that, If one falls, the others WILL know. Thus they will prepare to face or probably hunt whoever masterminded and exceuted the plan.

It is a common mistake to think that it would be easy to fight a Brujah, even in greater numbers. Potence + Celerity is a kick on the butt. Besides that, you should not assume that a 200 year old Brujah is dumb, never.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 03:13 PM
Explosion = fire(usually) = Rots check = scared primogen running through the street (very possible)

Rotschreck? I burn a Willpower and don't panic. Alternatively, roll to resist.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 03:17 PM
Explosion = fire(usually) = Rots check = scared primogen running through the street (very possible)
Unsurprisingly, pretty much all Elysium areas (1) aren't made out of wood, and (2) have excellent sprinkler systems and other means of fireproofing. What, you didn't think you were the first neonate to think of pulling a Nero, now did you? :smallbiggrin:

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 03:17 PM
"Fortitude Seven. I soak."

Show me where he gave any of his Primogen a generation that low? These guys are not everywhere, and usually someone that low would only be a primogen in the Old World cities(see Europe) though there are a few of them in the US. For the most part if they can use a Fortitude of 7 they are more likely to be the Prince.

You have to realize that even in DA:Vampire there were vampires that were 10th gen and higher. Those that are still alive, would still be 10th gen unless they diab'ed others granted they would have good stats and a few dis's at 5. They would also be qualified for the Primogen position.

Just because your the Primogen of San Fran, dosent mean you can use Fort 7, it dosent even make you a monster on the battlefield. It just means that when the Kui'jin invade, you are dinner.

Funny enough, sprinklers and fireproofing are countered by more explosives.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 03:21 PM
Show me where he gave any of his Primogen a generation that low? These guys are not everywhere, and usually someone that low would only be a primogen in the Old World cities(see Europe) though there are a few of them in the US. For the most part if they can use a Fortitude of 7 they are more likely to be the Prince.

You have to realize that even in DA:Vampire there were vampires that were 10th gen and higher. Those that are still alive, would still be 10th gen unless they diab'ed others granted they would have good stats and a few dis's at 5. They would also be qualified for the Primogen position.

Just because your the Primogen of San Fran, dosent mean you can use Fort 7, it dosent even make you a monster on the battlefield. It just means that when the Kui'jin invade, you are dinner.

That's 6th Generation, which is not unreasonable. Still, even 8th Gen (5 dots in Generation) means Fortitude 5. You still soak a hell of a lot.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 03:25 PM
Just because your the Primogen of San Fran, dosent mean you can use Fort 7, it dosent even make you a monster on the battlefield.
No, but it does mean that if a small team of inexperienced neonate Sabbat could take you and your fellow primogen down easily, they would already have done so a century ago.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 03:36 PM
No, but it does mean that if a small team of inexperienced neonate Sabbat could take you and your fellow primogen down easily, they would already have done so a century ago.

Perhaps, but the sides in Vamp are not exactly balanced in the first place. Hell look at the attack on the east coast, all that really took was for someone in the Sabbat to stand up as a leader to coordinate it.

On one side you have a group that wants it's secrets to stay hidden, on the other side you have a group that knows alot of the first side's secrets and dosent care if they are hidden. The second side will inevetably win.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 03:53 PM
Perhaps, but the sides in Vamp are not exactly balanced in the first place.
That is correct. Overall, the Camarilla is much stronger.


The second side will inevetably win.
I'd suggest you read the Gehenna book - it has some interesting insights into that particular matter (hint: you're wrong).

Krrth
2008-12-12, 03:56 PM
I'd have to say that yes, that while the Cam is stronger, they are handicapped by the fact that they don't want kindred to become common knowledge. However, when someone else breaks that code of conduct, they can get really, really mean.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 03:57 PM
I'd suggest you read the Gehenna book - it has some interesting insights into that particular matter (hint: you're wrong).

Best. Sourcebook. Ever.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 04:12 PM
Best. Sourcebook. Ever.

Best sourcebook ever, with 5 possible endings, none of which are canon.

Meh whatever, if you want all your primogen to be 6th gen basterds your more then welcome to it. Why all that power would be sitting in Boise Idaho, or Lubbock Texas, or Oklahoma City, or Portland Oregon or anywhere that isnt a power base for the Cam is besides me. But going off your own arguement, if the Cam had enough 6th Gen's in reserve to have all of their Primogens be that powerful. They would have won already.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 04:33 PM
Best sourcebook ever, with 5 possible endings, none of which are canon.

Meh whatever, if you want all your primogen to be 6th gen basterds your more then welcome to it. Why all that power would be sitting in Boise Idaho, or Lubbock Texas, or Oklahoma City, or Portland Oregon or anywhere that isnt a power base for the Cam is besides me. But going off your own arguement, if the Cam had enough 6th Gen's in reserve to have all of their Primogens be that powerful. They would have won already.

Well, 6th gen is a bit low for a primogen (not for a Prince, though). 7th would be more reasonable.

I dunno, maybe my perceptions are just tainted from V:tM LARP.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-12, 06:00 PM
Well, let's go down to 8th. That's the lowest that a PC can get, so I think that's a pretty good floor for Primogen, no?

That'll be 15 blood, with the ability to spend 3 a turn, at a minimum. Your 8th Gen Ventrue will have at least 4 dots in Fortitude (let's say); a Raging Inferno building fire (electrical fire) does 3 points of Ag Damage a turn, with a Soak difficulty of 8. He's not going to Die in a Fire, unless you coat him with napalm.

Numbers are from the 2nd Revised Edition sourcebook, BTW.

Cathaidan
2008-12-12, 06:10 PM
Meh whatever, if you want all your primogen to be 6th gen basterds your more then welcome to it. Why all that power would be sitting in Boise Idaho, or Lubbock Texas, or Oklahoma City, or Portland Oregon or anywhere that isnt a power base for the Cam is besides me. But going off your own arguement, if the Cam had enough 6th Gen's in reserve to have all of their Primogens be that powerful. They would have won already.

Just curious, but do you even read the source material for Vampire? I mean, if Chicago can have two, that's right TWO, fourth gens, why can't Boise, Idaho or Lubbock Texas have three or four 6th gens?

Besides, that's only two lower than PC's can start. And frankly, if you're only two generations lower than the best PC and five generations below the average starting PC then you're asking to get hosed by any neonate who walks into town.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 06:21 PM
Just curious, but do you even read the source material for Vampire? I mean, if Chicago can have two, that's right TWO, fourth gens, why can't Boise, Idaho or Lubbock Texas have three or four 6th gens?

Besides, that's only two lower than PC's can start. And frankly, if you're only two generations lower than the best PC and five generations below the average starting PC then you're asking to get hosed by any neonate who walks into town.

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 06:58 PM
Just curious, but do you even read the source material for Vampire? I mean, if Chicago can have two, that's right TWO, fourth gens, why can't Boise, Idaho or Lubbock Texas have three or four 6th gens?

Besides, that's only two lower than PC's can start. And frankly, if you're only two generations lower than the best PC and five generations below the average starting PC then you're asking to get hosed by any neonate who walks into town.

I think you grossly underestimate the power difference between a 8th gen and a 6th gen. This is also without adding in the factor of age. Generation is not the only guage for power in vampire. If your Primogen is a newly created 6th gen and your characters are newly created 8th gen then your comment is correct. Since this really is not a plausable scenario then your comment is incorrect.

You could just run games at a migh higher power level, and your mroe then welcome to do that. While some of the main Cam cities in the new world do have higher gen vampires in them Chicago in particular, it is also highly suggested in those books that your players do not directly confront them.

The Prince of cities(1m+ population), should be 6th - 7th gen in the new world. This is plausable, the Primogens should fall in somewhere behind there maybe even be equal to the Prince's gen depending on the clan's presence in town.

Hell if the Primogen in your games are atleast 6th Gen, that would make your Princes 4-5th Gen...How many people did your anti's actually embrace? You are either making the vamp population very top heavy, or you are raising the suggested vamp to human ratio drasticly.

Either way if thats the way you want to play the game, then more power to you.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 07:09 PM
Antideluvians have had three to four thousand years to embrace humans. I don't think it's unreasonable to have a significant quantity of their childer in the world.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 07:30 PM
Antideluvians have had three to four thousand years to embrace humans. I don't think it's unreasonable to have a significant quantity of their childer in the world.


It is though based on the prefered Cam population of 1 vamp to 100k humans. There were just under 300m people in the us for the 2006 census. That makes for 3k vampires. if there are 3-4 6th gen's in every city with the population of Lubbock Texas(250k) that would make for aprox. 1.2k 6th gens. in the new world. This is not counting those 4th gens in Chi-town, or any 5th gens around.

Granted this is only off the prefered numbers that the Cam uses to help maintain the masquerade. None the less this makes for a VERY high powered campain, with either alot very powerful NPC's or untold thousands of 8+ gen vampires running around since all of this works exponentially.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 07:40 PM
You say that like there's a fixed number (or even an accurate number) of vampires within the world. It's not like there's any real reason you can't have vampires who migrated to the colonies and survived to today, and there's certainly no reason that a vampire from Asia couldn't have decided to walk east and ended up in North America.

Further, there's never been a census taken of the vampires, for a few reasons: the Masquerade, first and foremost, but also due to vampires' secretive natures in themselves. There could be entire bloodlines that no one knows about (case in point: Sisters of Cacophany, Old Clan Tzimisce, Salubri, Cappadocians, Kiyasid, Tlacique...). And, frankly, with that being the case, there could even be Antediluvians that are unknown, with their own childer who are decent generation and who can emulate other clans and bloodlines to remain hidden (see also: Scent of the Other).

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 07:47 PM
But we are not talking about Bloodlines, we are talking about the Primogen of the Camarrilla. That group of people where every member has to ask their Prince for approval before they embrace someone. That group that is trying to maintain the Masquerade. The only group in the WoD that is trying to control the vampire population inorder to keep the secret.

Bloodlines do not fall into this conversation, neither do non-cam clans. Their members CANNOT be Primogen.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 07:54 PM
Bloodlines do not fall into this conversation, neither do non-cam clans. Their members CANNOT be Primogen.

Lies. Notice how I said "masquerading as" in the last post? The Scent of the Other merit is cheap, and it makes you seem like another clan for the purposes of even high-powered Auspex and Thaumaturgy.

Failing that, there's also the fact that one can merely emulate another clan with just the right clan Disciplines and cross-Disciplines. From that, we can extrapolate that there can be Primogen who are not of the clan they say they are, and merely are running a very high-risk charade as a means of acquiring power--something very very common within vampire society and within the Camarilla in particular.

The fundamental point, though, is that there is no fixed count on how many vampires there are. The number you quoted (1:100,000) is also an average, which means it'll be less dense in less populated areas, and denser in more populated areas. S'basic math.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 07:59 PM
Lies. Notice how I said "masquerading as" in the last post? The Scent of the Other merit is cheap, and it makes you seem like another clan for the purposes of even high-powered Auspex and Thaumaturgy.

Failing that, there's also the fact that one can merely emulate another clan with just the right clan Disciplines and cross-Disciplines. From that, we can extrapolate that there can be Primogen who are not of the clan they say they are, and merely are running a very high-risk charade as a means of acquiring power--something very very common within vampire society and within the Camarilla in particular.

The fundamental point, though, is that there is no fixed count on how many vampires there are. The number you quoted (1:100,000) is also an average, which means it'll be less dense in less populated areas, and denser in more populated areas. S'basic math.


So it's your position that many members of bloodlines are masquerading as the Primogen of other clans in cities? Can you cite this with any backup information from any of the <city> by Night books? Or is it just a guess to throw that in.

A smart Prince(the ones that are Princes) would ask your background including sire and such, then he would have his people check on that background. If your background is full or people that cannot be contacted that noone has ever heard of especially as a 6th gen your already screwed.

The Cam is truely an Old boys club...the power brokers all know each other. If your story has holes all they have to to is call the guy that supposedly sired your sire for more information.

comicshorse
2008-12-12, 08:00 PM
Antideluvians have had three to four thousand years to embrace humans. I don't think it's unreasonable to have a significant quantity of their childer in the world.

What you have to remember is that every Childe an Antedeluvian produces is a potential rival and Diablerist. Antedeluvians will embrace VERY carefully.

As for blowing up the Elysium this is a place where the combined minds of a city full of paranoid kindred have gone into securing. Expect camera's, ghouled sniffer dogs, metal dectectors, X-rays, sprinker and halogen systems ( vampires don't need to breathe), blast doors, Tremere wards and anything else the G.M. can think of. As I said an entire city of Kindred knows this is where they are most vulnerable and will have all contributed to making this place as secure as possible

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 08:04 PM
What you have to remember is that every Childe an Antedeluvian produces is a potential rival and Diablerist. Antedeluvians will embrace VERY carefully.

As for blowing up the Elysium this is a place where the combined minds of a city full of paranoid kindred have gone into securing. Expect camera's, ghouled sniffer dogs, metal dectectors, X-rays, sprinker and halogen systems ( vampires don't need to breathe), blast doors, Tremere wards and anything else the G.M. can think of. As I said an entire city of Kindred knows this is where they are most vulnerable and will have all contributed to making this place as secure as possible

That is a good point, it would not be easy to blow up the elysium, but it would in no way be impossable. If all else fails I guess you can just crash a plane into it.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 08:05 PM
So it's your position that many members of bloodlines are masquerading as the Primogen of other clans in cities? Can you cite this with any backup information from any of the <city> by Night books? Or is it just a guess to throw that in. It is my position that it is entirely possible. Hell, in some places, some lesser bloodlines even hold positions of power (like the Tlacique Prince in Mexico).


A smart Prince(the ones that are Princes) would ask your background including sire and such, then he would have his people check on that background. If your background is full or people that cannot be contacted that noone has ever heard of especially as a 6th gen your already screwed.Vampires are frequently difficult to contact, re-deceased, secretive, unknown, or on the other side of the planet. Histories can be feigned, and people can be paid off to act in a desired role.


The Cam is truely an Old boys club...the power brokers all know each other. If your story has holes all they have to to is call the guy that supposedly sired your sire for more information.
Yes, yes it is. But that doesn't make them infallible, omniscient, or even well-put together. What I'm saying is that the Camarilla's "population count", while probably a decent basis, is likely inaccurate, erring to the side of "too low".

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 08:06 PM
But we are not talking about Bloodlines, we are talking about the Primogen of the Camarrilla. That group of people where every member has to ask their Prince for approval before they embrace someone.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they actually do ask every time. That's vampire politics, of course.


That group that is trying to maintain the Masquerade.
That has a variety of reasons, not the least of which the Technocracy and the lynch mob effect. The Gehenna book has a lovely scenario wherein the Masquerade breaks, and All Hell Breaketh Loose.


The only group in the WoD that is trying to control the vampire population inorder to keep the secret.
That's not why they're keeping the population down. Rather, it's about power. The Camarilla is good at power.

Look, if it was so easy to break the Camarilla by simply spilling their secrets, it would have happened a long time ago. You're forgetting that whatever plans you're currently posting here, the Camarilla elders have thought of at least fifty years ago and made countermeasures for. Yes, they're paranoid. That's what elders do.

Consider how hard it is to break, oh say any major company by attempting to spill a secret - you'll be sued into the ground before you can say "restraining order", and that's for the nice companies (Cyberpunk 2020 has some good examples of the not-nice variety). The Camarilla is worse than this. Caveat emptor.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 08:08 PM
That is a good point, it would not be easy to blow up the elysium, but it would in no way be impossable. If all else fails I guess you can just crash a plane into it.

Yes, because that is going to be easy.... :smallconfused:
Speaking in WOD terms, you'd need to bring some high ranking Force mages. Preferably Taftani, but the Verbena also pulled a stunt like this once or twice in history.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 08:10 PM
Yes, because that is going to be easy.... :smallconfused:
Speaking in WOD terms, you'd need to bring some high ranking Force mages. Preferably Taftani, but the Verbena also pulled a stunt like this once or twice in history.

...I think he means "airplane". Which, uh, last I checked, takes a box cutter and a bad attitude.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 08:13 PM
...I think he means "airplane". Which, uh, last I checked, takes a box cutter and a bad attitude.

Yeah, I get that. Still a Forces/5 effect, by my reckoning. Technocracy style.

comicshorse
2008-12-12, 08:14 PM
Hell, in some places, some lesser bloodlines even hold positions of power (like the Tlacique Prince in Mexico).

Yes and there's also Saracen ( Setite posing as Caitif) is in the second World of Darkness book as Prince of Sydney

As for the Masquerade I really don't think the Sabbat wants to break the Masquerade. Sure the troops may get feed the ' all human are cattle' line but the real elders lived throught eh Inquisition and they know how dangerous humanity is. If the Sabbat really wanted to destroy the Masquerade they could in their power bases, instead they only break the Masquerade in Camariila cities where they know it will be hushed up ( but will be a huge drain on resources and time for the Camarila to do that)

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 08:15 PM
Yeah, I get that. Still a Forces/5 effect, by my reckoning. Technocracy style.

High-power Chimerestry could probably do it too. Or high-power Thaumaturgy (Path of Conjuration). Because, like D&D, Conjuration wins.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 08:17 PM
Dropping a plane on a building, or blowing one up? Not sure why either would take Forces 5, but I guess you could blow one up with a Tac Nuke with forces 5.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 08:18 PM
Dropping a plane on a building, or blowing one up?

The former.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-12, 08:21 PM
The former.

As previously stated..dropping a plane on a building takes a box cutter. Or some potence to rip the door off.

Though i guess with Corspondence you could just layer the inside of the building with a place on the otherside of the world where it's sunny. Since you brought up Mage and all.

Krrth
2008-12-12, 08:27 PM
To bring back the arguments about generations: At least one of the Primogens is 350 years old. Given that timeframe, I believe he could have started as 7th gen as a PC. You are simply not going to get primogen much above 8th to begin with, as that would make them too easy to dominate. Mind you, I would expect princes to be in the 6-7 range, and primogens to be in the 7-8 range.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 08:28 PM
High-power Chimerestry could probably do it too. Or high-power Thaumaturgy (Path of Conjuration). Because, like D&D, Conjuration wins.
Point being, regardless of how you plan to do it, burning down the entire Elysium and/or dropping an airplane on it is well beyond the capabilities of a group of semi-inexperienced novice Sabbat.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 08:30 PM
Point being, regardless of how you plan to do it, burning down the entire Elysium and/or dropping an airplane on it is well beyond the capabilities of a group of semi-inexperienced novice Sabbat.

Correct. I mean, the Keeper of Elysium, the Sheriff, and the Prince's Whip would likely gang-bang any offending parties into mush.

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-13, 11:55 AM
in response to chicago

yes it had 2 4th gens, it also had a 5th gen prince and an abomination,

8-13 gen can get 5 dice of fort. which can be enough.

firebombing elysium can be good, if and only if you know 1)you'll kill them all, or two you have enoguh evidence to shift blame elsewhere. here is a hint if you can shift blame rightly, to soem one low enough gen but weak enough, get a hunt called. (firebomb the elysium, any witnesses see elders ableto survive a huge explosion and walk on their own accord, kin-slaying and a huge potential breach in the masquerade.) if you can diablerize the "offending parties" get one or more of the pack a cammie approved or accepted reason to be a diabolist.

Just Alex
2008-12-13, 08:53 PM
I recommend the strategy my friends and I used to take out Tzimisce/Tremere/Saulot in a Gehena game: Whip out an Earthbound. It didn't hurt that we slipped info on where "Tremere" was headed to the Assamites.
Sure, we ended up with 3/5 of the party about 1 damage away from torpor and the remaining two needed to make those self-control checks to avoid starvation frenzies, but none of us hit final death.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-12-13, 09:19 PM
Get a W72 tactical nuke. Half a kiloton of firepower in a 50-pound suitcase. Blow up half the city, Elysium included. The Sabbat don't care about civillian deaths, right?

Otherwise, load up a large truck with oil-and-fertilizer. 60 tons of explosive, baby. In 1992 someone blew up half a city block with only 2 tons of the stuff.

Aquillion
2008-12-13, 10:00 PM
Get a W72 tactical nuke. Half a kiloton of firepower in a 50-pound suitcase. Blow up half the city, Elysium included. The Sabbat don't care about civillian deaths, right?At your local W72 tactical nuke shop? :smallconfused:

Even with more reasonable explosives, you might be overestimating how well they'll work.

First, you have to do it during the night (to be sure everyone is there.) That eliminates one of the biggest advantages of blowing up a building right there.

Second, a lot of the damage from an explosion is not going to be instantly fatal; it isn't like you're spreading massive damage equally over a wide area. Even when there's fire, it's going to be localized; most of the deaths from fire, in fact, are from smoke inhalation, which is useless for our purposes (and as others have pointed out, as long as the fire doesn't directly engulf them, older vampires are likely going to be able to resist being overwhelmed by the sight of it.) Many other deaths in an accident like this in the real world would be from getting trapped, fatal injuries, and so forth. Even a collapse that would crush a human instantly is not necessarily going to kill a vampire; managing disaster areas is much easier when you have multiple people with Celerity and absurd strength dashing around clearing out rubble, plus victims who can't suffocate and are fine with being buried alive.

We think of massive building-destroying explosions as hugely destructive, but even humans sometimes survive them. Unless you can very carefully target it by planting an incendiary in the part of the Elysium itself where you know your targets will be (not happening), I don't think a big building-collapsing blast is actually going to be as effective as you think.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-12-13, 10:23 PM
Half a ton of standard explosives is building-collapsing. Two tons can blast a moderate-sized building to pieces (google some bomb attack pictures if you like). Sixty tons? Unless parts of the building are underground, you get the entire thing blasted half a mile in the sky then rained down across several blocks.

As for potency helping, a cubic foot of cement weighs three tons. What strength is needed to lift that?

Collin152
2008-12-13, 11:09 PM
As I recall from one of the clanbooks, Ventrue if I recall correctly, Nukes kill Vampires. Badly. So it should work admirably if they're within the blast radius.

chiasaur11
2008-12-14, 12:25 AM
As I recall from one of the clanbooks, Ventrue if I recall correctly, Nukes kill Vampires. Badly. So it should work admirably if they're within the blast radius.

It even makes an odd kind of sense, beyond the fact that nukes kill everybody. After all, nuclear reactions power the sun. And nothing ruins an undead scumbag's day like our solar buddy. So being at ground zero? Like sending a vamp to the sun, express.

Collin152
2008-12-14, 12:27 AM
It even makes an odd kind of sense, beyond the fact that nukes kill everybody. After all, nuclear reactions power the sun. And nothing ruins an undead scumbag's day like our solar buddy. So being at ground zero? Like sending a vamp to the sun, express.

Not to mention the heat. You know, more than sufficient to ignite every last bit of their dry, dead bodies all at once.
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
You take 6,000 aggravated damage. Soak that.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-14, 12:36 AM
Yeah, this reminds me of the Bear Stew Recipe.

Step 1 - Kill a bear
Step 2 - Make a stew

Step 2 is pretty easy, but Step 1 is usually a problem :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2008-12-14, 04:18 AM
As I recall from one of the clanbooks, Ventrue if I recall correctly, Nukes kill Vampires. Badly. So it should work admirably if they're within the blast radius.

Didn't work on Ravnos...

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-14, 10:36 AM
Didn't work on Ravnos...

if an antediluvian is on the primogen of this city, the the sabbat are right to be pressuring to kill some primogen asap.


all joking aside, they were technocratic neutron bombs. and they did hurt the antediluvian pretty well. the sun did the rest.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-14, 10:51 AM
if an antediluvian is on the primogen of this city, the the sabbat are right to be pressuring to kill some primogen asap.


all joking aside, they were technocratic neutron bombs. and they did hurt the antediluvian pretty well. the sun did the rest.

...that took three days and an army of Cathayans.

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-14, 11:02 AM
...that took three days and an army of Cathayans.
the cathayans may or may not have had an impact. I give full bragging rights of the kill to the technocratic union.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-14, 11:20 AM
the cathayans may or may not have had an impact. I give full bragging rights of the kill to the technocratic union.

I don't think anyone doubts the ability of Mages to pwn Vampires. I mean, even a starting Hermetic has the ability to do 3 die of high-TN fire damage a round.

And let's not even get into what a Matter 2 / Force 3 / Prime 2 Mage can do:

"I would like to transmute his clothing into fire"
"Um, that's highly vulgar, but also awesome. TN 7"
"I'll spend two Quintessence, make that a TN 5"
"Awesome"

By the way, a starting Mage (Hermetic, SoE, or Celestial) can do that too. :smallamused:

FatR
2008-12-14, 01:59 PM
Sure you can kill the primogen. "Extremely shrewd and extremely paranoid ancient vampire that is prepared to everything" is artifact of the school of thought that demands suffering of players before the Storyteller's might. Partly because "extremely shrewd" and "extremely paranoid" traits are mutually exclusive. You cannot remain at the highest level of alertness 100% of the time and remain sane enough to function normally, not for centuries. Partly because primogen cannot be holed in their fortified lairs constantly without effectively cutting them off from Camarilla politics. The setting usually supposes that they take an active role in the vampires' society political life, this demands meetings with each other, visiting Elisium and stuff. Partly because the cities with a full, all-elder Primogen are actually very rare, and unless your pack had set its sights on a megalopolis, the Primogen either consists of less members or weaker members. Remember, vampires are frikkin' rare, with Camarilla maintaining 1 vampire per 100 000 mortals ratio (can be higher in large cities, because vamps concentrate there, but still), and elders make up a small percentage of this already-small number. Finally, I must remind, that in actual game supplements elders do dumb **** all the time. And get themselves killed by shovelhead wave assaults or simply direct attacks whenever this makes for a better plot. Also, the leaders of both Camarilla and Sabbat are not really competent at anything but staying at the top of of their organizations and plotting against their old rivals, even if "anything" includes "taking any actual measures against their certain doom, i.e. Gehenna". They are deadlocked in their old ways of thinking; and suffer from unhealthy levels of paranoia, crippling their own organizations by oppressing or eliminating truly capaple underlings; and often cannot grasp modern techology; and are bogged down in petty rivalries. Just read the corebook, it is all there - as well as the assumption, that a group of ancillae IS a credible threat to an elder. (Anf by mechanics, unless you're a methuselah or close, a group of prepared neonates can gank you most of the time if they manage to pull off an ammbush.)
So, the question should be not "can players kill the primogen?" but "if they can, would this make the game better?"

FatR
2008-12-14, 02:13 PM
I don't think anyone doubts the ability of Mages to pwn Vampires. I mean, even a starting Hermetic has the ability to do 3 die of high-TN fire damage a round.

And let's not even get into what a Matter 2 / Force 3 / Prime 2 Mage can do:

"I would like to transmute his clothing into fire"
"Um, that's highly vulgar, but also awesome. TN 7"
"I'll spend two Quintessence, make that a TN 5"
"Awesome"
Not really awesome. Unless your ST allows you to circumvent actual rules on magic effects with cool descriptions, you simply cannot get enough damage to rely on it against vamps. Problem with mages lies in their ability to find and frag you from distance, avoiding the direct confrontation. At higher XP levels there is also Paradox mitigation and casting rituals to buff oneself (or, again, blow stuff up from a distance) with enormous amount of successes.

mostlyharmful
2008-12-14, 05:23 PM
The requirement of social interaction works against most elders, in order to remain sane over long stretches of time humans require sufficient peer interaction, a lifetime of centuries should reduce but not eliminate this basic psychological need. If you're sequestered in your haven then yes, you pretty much are impregnable to younger vamps that are in any way concerned about the masquerade or the state of the city they stand to inherent. And yes, once you get to Elysium you're in the position of availing yourself of the best the prince can provide. In between it's a no-mans-land, factor in Garou and Awakened and any damn wheres a no-mans-land.

Elders are socially powerful, elders are well informed, elders are not nessecarilly personally physically formidible, elders are not always perfectly protected.

I remember reading the clan books and of the main characters who are elders the only one who I believed was Hesha the Setite, he didn't use his swanky powers or the blood bond, all he used was basic (very very very advanced) socail interaction to gain loyalty, wealth, security, artifacts, respect and whatever else he wanted, going toe to toe with something represented a huge failure on his part.

If you have to win once and your opponent has to win every SINGLE TIME then who do you think eventually walks away. The Sabbat can throw waves of reasonably experianced (certainly well trained) soliders at a city who can themselves throw waves of shovelheads.... the elders have to win every single time....

Not saying your guys are going to win but eventually entropy favours the oncoming hordes. Now Methusalah+ level disciplines render the whole idea pointless but that well outside most masquerade rpg sessions.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-14, 05:30 PM
If you have to win once and your opponent has to win every SINGLE TIME then who do you think eventually walks away. The Sabbat can throw waves of reasonably experianced (certainly well trained) soliders at a city who can themselves throw waves of shovelheads.... the elders have to win every single time....
But that's not really what's going on. The Camarilla has a remarkably good track record over the last centuries of holding its own against the Sabbat. Also, the Gehenna book has something to say about all this, and it really isn't "oh look, the Sabbat overthrows the Cama lolz."

Like we said a couple of times before, a simple method as you suggest has to be wrong, by definition, or it would have succeeded already in the past centuries. If the Sabbat (with all of its infighting, mind you!) could declare overt war on the Camarilla that easily, they'd bring all the Justicars, Thaumaturgy masters, and other heavy hitters down on their heads faster than you can say "blood hunt".

mostlyharmful
2008-12-14, 05:42 PM
But that's not really what's going on. The Camarilla has a remarkably good track record over the last centuries of holding its own against the Sabbat. Also, the Gehenna book has something to say about all this, and it really isn't "oh look, the Sabbat overthrows the Cama lolz."

Like we said a couple of times before, a simple method as you suggest has to be wrong, by definition, or it would have succeeded already in the past centuries. If the Sabbat (with all of its infighting, mind you!) could declare overt war on the Camarilla that easily, they'd bring all the Justicars, Thaumaturgy masters, and other heavy hitters down on their heads faster than you can say "blood hunt".

Hey, I'm not respnsible for a world fluff that makes no crunch sense. All I'm saying is that the elders of the Cam need to take a deep knee bend to the law of "you don't always win". The Cam has plenty of mundane avenues that it rocks at ok, but none of them work out to countering a small, trained, motivated, suicidal force that can infiltrate enemy territory and do whatever they please with the majority of the inhabitants. "Hey, this can't work because the fluff don't support it" doesn't strike me at least as a viable argument.

The choice is simple, either the Antediluvians/Methusalahs are currently active in which case their respective disciplines make the whole thing completely pointless and the elders are as much the pawns to those older than themselves as the newest fledling, or the players have free will, in which case elders get ganked by successive waves of cannon fodder because the Sabbat is an organization that is prepared to pull those kind of tactics. In a fight between two powers in history the victory goes to the most ruthless unless one or the other has such an overwhelming advantage as to make the whole thing meaningless.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-14, 05:56 PM
"Hey, this can't work because the fluff don't support it" doesn't strike me at least as a viable argument.
Given that the RP world is made entirely out of fluff, it strikes me as one of the best arguments as applied to that world.


The choice is simple,
False dichotomy. It assumes in the second scenario that the Elders are clueless and unresponsive. And yes, the Camarilla is plenty ruthless, in case you hadn't noticed.

comicshorse
2008-12-14, 08:10 PM
in which case elders get ganked by successive waves of cannon fodder because the Sabbat is an organization that is prepared to pull those kind of tactics.

There is a certain degree of truth to these suggestion. To the extent that my favourite Vampire G.M. ruled vampires could only embrace every 50 years or so, so the Sabbat couldn't pull this human wave attacks.
I'm less convinced of there absolutely certainty of success for several reasons:
(1) " Go forth pack x ad kill the Primogen of Chicago, and if you die like the first thirty we sent be assured we'll send more"
" Say guys rather than go on an suicide mission why don't we defect ( to the Camarilla/ Anarchs/ Setites) or just kill the elder standing next to us and take HIS territory"
(2) " Who sent that pack to kill my beloved comrade of Chicago"
" I believe it was the Bishop of Tijuana my Lord"
" Deploy our highly trained and experienced ( not just shovel-head scum) Archon hit squad. Oh and make sure a note is found by his body informing the Sabbat Elders what happens to those who really annoy us. Hasn't he figured out this war is only a ruse to keep the Elders of both side in power and only the young ones are meant to die"

Collin152
2008-12-14, 10:09 PM
" Say guys rather than go on an suicide mission why don't we defect ( to the Camarilla/ Anarchs/ Setites) or just kill the elder standing next to us and take HIS territory"


"Sounds great, I totally would, but I've been BLood Bound to him completley, and cannot defy his commands. Suicide mission it is."

comicshorse
2008-12-14, 10:19 PM
"Sounds great, I totally would, but I've been BLood Bound to him completley, and cannot defy his commands. Suicide mission it is."



Nope, thanks to he Vaulderie, Sabbat packs are NOT bounded to their elders only to each other. Unless the guy is actually part of the pack ( in which case he is a) going with them and b) bounded to them so unlikely to send them out to die) there will be no blood bond at all.

Cathaidan
2008-12-14, 10:23 PM
Hey, I'm not respnsible for a world fluff that makes no crunch sense. All I'm saying is that the elders of the Cam need to take a deep knee bend to the law of "you don't always win". The Cam has plenty of mundane avenues that it rocks at ok, but none of them work out to countering a small, trained, motivated, suicidal force that can infiltrate enemy territory and do whatever they please with the majority of the inhabitants. "Hey, this can't work because the fluff don't support it" doesn't strike me at least as a viable argument.

Um.... That's not the argument. The argument is that if it were that simple, why hasn't it worked before. And the answer, as written in the fluff is that it was tried, it almost worked, and now the Camarilla knows what to be on the look-out for. The Sabbat must also learn to evolve in order to attack the Camarilla. AND THEY WERE! Note how they took New York. It wasn't do to waves and waves to goons. New plans = Higher chance of success. As I have stated before.


The choice is simple, either the Antediluvians/Methusalahs are currently active in which case their respective disciplines make the whole thing completely pointless and the elders are as much the pawns to those older than themselves as the newest fledling, or the players have free will, in which case elders get ganked by successive waves of cannon fodder because the Sabbat is an organization that is prepared to pull those kind of tactics. In a fight between two powers in history the victory goes to the most ruthless unless one or the other has such an overwhelming advantage as to make the whole thing meaningless.

Umm.... There's a reason that its called the Jyhad. They are active for all intents and purposes. What makes it not pointless is that they don't all get along and so they are pulling each kindred in thirty different ways. Note how that's one of the themes in the back of the Masquerade book.

And really, I think its time that we all take a step back and ask a very important question. What is the purpose of the Vampire Game?

Personally, when I play vampire it is so that I can get my socio-political backstabbing on. As such, I tend to love the fluff, I love the fact that tactical nuclear devices ARE NEVER IN THE HANDS OF PC's, I tend to love they way that I can work with an older vampire just to try and turn on him later (even when it fails.)

It is my opinion that if you are looking for a more action oriented game then you need to be playing Werewolf or Mage. The fluff for those games tends to be action heavy. And lets face it, the systems are pretty close anyway so its not really that hard to switch over.

Collin152
2008-12-14, 10:28 PM
Nope, thanks to he Vaulderie, Sabbat packs are NOT bounded to their elders only to each other. Unless the guy is actually part of the pack ( in which case he is a) going with them and b) bounded to them so unlikely to send them out to die) there will be no blood bond at all.

What, that's the only way it can work? There's nothing stopping a Sabbat vamp from feeding 50-700 of his childer his blood on three two seperate occaisions to bind them. They aren't long for this world anyways.

comicshorse
2008-12-14, 10:35 PM
What, that's the only way it can work? There's nothing stopping a Sabbat vamp from feeding 50-700 of his childer his blood on three two seperate occaisions to bind them. They aren't long for this world anyways.

Again nope the Vaulderie shatters ALL other Blood Bounds and makes imposing new one's impossible ( how else do you think the Anarch revolt got going) he can Blood Bond as many as he likes and as soon as they form packs its gone and he has a load of pissed of vampires remembering how he tried to mind control them.

Collin152
2008-12-14, 10:42 PM
Again nope the Vaulderie shatters ALL other Blood Bounds and makes imposing new one's impossible ( how else do you think the Anarch revolt got going) he can Blood Bond as many as he likes and as soon as they form packs its gone and he has a load of pissed of vampires remembering how he tried to mind control them.

Why is he letting them do that? They exist for the express purpose of the suicide mission. They're weapons of war, created for one purpose, kept safley tucked away until that purpose is come, and then expended fulfilling that purpose.

comicshorse
2008-12-14, 10:57 PM
Why is he letting them do that? They exist for the express purpose of the suicide mission. They're weapons of war, created for one purpose, kept safley tucked away until that purpose is come, and then expended fulfilling that purpose.

Good question ! And the answer is that while they are everything you said the absolutely vital thing is THAT THEY SHOULDN'T REALISE THIS !
The Sabbat was formed out of the Anarch revolt, when vampires discpvered how to break the Blood Bond and rose up against the the Elders. One of the core myths holding the Sabbat together is that they are the only free vampires and must bring down the evil Camarilla so all Kindred can be free. This is one of the rocks the Sabbat is founded on.
Granteed 99 per cent of the Elders of the Sabbat don't believe this but it makes a great tool to keep the young one's under your control.
And they've personally seen how the tactic of Blood Bonding people worked when they broke the bonds and dragged the elders that used screaming out of their havens to be diablerized. The secret of the Vaulderie is out in the open and Blood bonding, IN HUGE NUMBERS, isn't really ever going to work again.
If the Bishop of Tijuana does try using it he is betraying the core principles of the Sabbat nd if some of the smarter young one's find out about this it could trigger another Sabbat civil war. It's therefore in teh interests of the Sabbat elders to not only NOT do this but pubically immolate the Bishop of Tijuana if he does to 'prove' how strongly the tenents of the Sabbat are unheld.


To answer a question you might be thinking, in the Sabbat myth 'shovelheads' are not proper vampires yet. Barely a set-up from Kine its alright to throw them away as those human wave attacks are evolution in action. Only the smartest and toughest will survive and they will be accepted as full Sabbat. However as the P.C.s are sent on a mission rather than just realesed starving and frenzying I presumed they wer a step up from shovelheads

FatR
2008-12-15, 02:30 AM
But that's not really what's going on. The Camarilla has a remarkably good track record over the last centuries of holding its own against the Sabbat. Also, the Gehenna book has something to say about all this, and it really isn't "oh look, the Sabbat overthrows the Cama lolz."
Yeah. It says "look, leaders of both sects are incompetent". Also, no, Camarilla does not have that good of a record.


Like we said a couple of times before, a simple method as you suggest has to be wrong, by definition, or it would have succeeded already in the past centuries.
It succeeded often enough for the Sabbat to exist and to take territories from the Camarilla from time to time. It works in historical examples from the books. Well, it does not always work - that's one of the reasons why the Sabbat did not won completely - but neither it always fails.


If the Sabbat (with all of its infighting, mind you!) could declare overt war on the Camarilla that easily, they'd bring all the Justicars, Thaumaturgy masters, and other heavy hitters down on their heads faster than you can say "blood hunt".
Retaking of New York required years, in not decades of planning and pulling favors, and the Cams' force still wasn't anywhere near this impressive. The Camarilla does not react fast or efficiently beyond local level. Because it is ruled by a bunch of selfish bastards who, at best, mistrust each other.

FatR
2008-12-15, 02:43 AM
Hey, I'm not respnsible for a world fluff that makes no crunch sense. All I'm saying is that the elders of the Cam need to take a deep knee bend to the law of "you don't always win". The Cam has plenty of mundane avenues that it rocks at ok, but none of them work out to countering a small, trained, motivated, suicidal force that can infiltrate enemy territory and do whatever they please with the majority of the inhabitants. "Hey, this can't work because the fluff don't support it" doesn't strike me at least as a viable argument.
Except fluff does support it. The Sabbat manages to win a sizeable percentage of times, somehow. It managed to come into existence, which required eating a lot of elders, which were, as a rule, much better protected (if nowhere near as well-hidden) than modern-day ones. The best defense against infiltrating hit squads is to find them, when they arrive in the city, before they find you and kill them first. If they live long enough to actually mount an attack, they have a better chance of frying you, that you can afford (that's also one of the reasons, why werewolves and mages completely own vamps mechanics-wise).


The choice is simple, either the Antediluvians/Methusalahs are currently active in which case their respective disciplines make the whole thing completely pointless and the elders are as much the pawns to those older than themselves as the newest fledling, or the players have free will, in which case elders get ganked by successive waves of cannon fodder because the Sabbat is an organization that is prepared to pull those kind of tactics. In a fight between two powers in history the victory goes to the most ruthless unless one or the other has such an overwhelming advantage as to make the whole thing meaningless.
The Sabbat, however, is not prepared to use waves of cannon fodder without limits. Remenber, they too are afraid of going too far and really breaking the Masquerade. Also, the most ruthless does not win. The most organized does. And the Sabbat is organized even worse than the Camarilla.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-15, 06:08 AM
Not really awesome. Unless your ST allows you to circumvent actual rules on magic effects with cool descriptions, you simply cannot get enough damage to rely on it against vamps. Problem with mages lies in their ability to find and frag you from distance, avoiding the direct confrontation. At higher XP levels there is also Paradox mitigation and casting rituals to buff oneself (or, again, blow stuff up from a distance) with enormous amount of successes.

But... the vampire is literally clothed in fire.

That's gotta be some serious Rotshrek, if not serious burns from, y'know, having your underwear turn into fire.

Sure, it's not taking out Primogen, but by the Vampire 2nd Revised rules we're taking about 3 aggravated damage (entire body engulfed in flames) at TN 7 (3rd Degree Burns) for Fortitude resists. Heck, a partial success on 3 Arete should get at least half-transmutation (2 damage from 50% of body in flames, TN 5-7 for 2nd to 3rd degree burns) possibly followed by regular clothing fire.

So yeah, not the "best" use of magic, but a highly entertaining way to fry a neonate or distract someone a bit more experienced.

The Sphere/Arete numbers, at least, are accurate by 2nd Edition Mage. No shenanigans on my part there.

RPGuru1331
2008-12-15, 06:16 AM
But... the vampire is literally clothed in fire.

Yeah, I think he misinterpreted "super effective" for awesome. In my book setting a guy chronically weak to and scared of fire, on fire, is made of win.

Not touching the base disc ussion with Space Sphere magic. >_>

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-15, 06:28 AM
Yeah, I think he misinterpreted "super effective" for awesome. In my book setting a guy chronically weak to and scared of fire, on fire, is made of win.

Not touching the base disc ussion with Space Sphere magic. >_>

Yeah, the actual importance of Correspondence with magic-at-a-distance is unclear. Do you need at least COR 1 to cast anything outside of arms reach? Or is magic basically line of sight (non-aided) and you can use COR to expand its range beyond that? If so, I think you only need COR 2 and sufficient successes to nuke someone at any range.

BrainFreeze
2008-12-15, 12:33 PM
Pretty much, unless their areas are warded/on other planes.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-15, 04:36 PM
A quick point on the "Primogen Super-Paranoia: realistic?" debate.

The real point here isn't that Primogen are impossible to surprise, but that they have to be well prepared for generic threats - random assaults, Haven invasions, Order of Leopold assassination attempts and the like - or some shmoe would have knocked them off already. These kinds of threats require no more than time and motive to carry off, and as such they are the most common sort of attack any vampire will face. This is exactly the kind of attack that the OP's characters are contemplating - they don't know anything about the Primogen aside from a basic facts sheet and their plan is going to be "breaking and entering" either guns-blazing or Splinter Cell style.

These kinds of attacks are easy to visualize and therefore easy to counter. No, the way to defeat Primogen is to attack in a fashion they cannot reasonably anticipate - a social attack. Everyone must trust their allies to some extent, and as such it is possible to place even the oldest vampire in a vulnerable position if you get the right ally to betray him. To even attempt such an attack, the PCs need to become well versed in the social aspects of Camarilla society; the OP has said that his PCs do not have social skills, nor do they intend to use them.

A pure brute force attack will have to fail - it attacks generic weakpoints that the Primogen and his security detail will have considered at some point over the past couple hundred years. If they didn't, someone would have fired proton torpedoes down that particular thermal exhaust port years ago. The PCs must be more subtle than that if they hope to succeed; this is Vampire we're talking about, after all.

Just Alex
2008-12-15, 05:35 PM
Realistically, a good way to weaken the Primogen (and prince) is to tear the masquerade a new one. If everyone is scrambling to keep news of vampires off the air, you get all kinds of opportunities to catch people with their proverbial pants down.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-15, 05:45 PM
Realistically, a good way to weaken the Primogen (and prince) is to tear the masquerade a new one. If everyone is scrambling to keep news of vampires off the air, you get all kinds of opportunities to catch people with their proverbial pants down.

Yes. Remember that Gehenna book I was talking about earlier? Be Careful What You Wish For.