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Bulwer
2008-12-10, 11:01 PM
I'm building a melee combatant for a high-powered campaign starting at level 6. I've decided on a Water Orc for the race, and I have good numbers to play with. It's +4STR,+2CON,-2Mental(All), and the stat spread is 3 18s and 3 16s, or something else that adds up to 20 or 21 total modifier.

I was originally looking at a soulknife or one of the 3rd party variants that make it not suck, but I'm not sure at all. I've got an irrational hatred for the Tome of Battle, and being a Barbarian doesn't fit the character I want.

What are my options for a martial character that can keep up with relatively optimized spellcasters from level 6 onwards? All books are fair game.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-10, 11:06 PM
Fighter can be pretty good if you PrC out after either 4 or 6. Either Lockdown or Ubercharger. Which one fits your fluff better?

Flickerdart
2008-12-10, 11:07 PM
Keep up with spellcasters? No, sorry.

But an Ubercharger should do you well. Shock Trooper, Pounce, Leap Attack, Power Attack, and so on in that fashion, I'm not sure of the actual feats necessary to optimize this strategy, but it ends up dealing insane amounts of damage.

Psychic Warriors are also something you might want to consider. Technically melee, as they hit things with swords, but also Psionics progression.

You could also go Shapeshift Druid and maul people.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-10, 11:11 PM
If you don't mind the source. A binder might be a decent choice. They can melee pretty darned well. Sure you're still a "magic" using character, which means that while you're a very capable close quarters combatant, you can still do other nifty things if you want.

Eldariel
2008-12-10, 11:17 PM
Psychic Warrior is easily the best option. Those things actually kick major butt and are more efficient than Barbarians, quite comparable to ToB classes. A correctly built Dungeoncrasher Fighter could also compare, but that takes a lot of work. Psy War is far easier.

Keld Denar
2008-12-10, 11:23 PM
My Urgrosh (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=17395408#post17395408) build does more damage than most things using ToB except for a few crazy Stormguard or Shadow Pounce builds. I'm actually in the process of revamping it, with the 2nd level of Exotic Weapon Master because I realized that an Urgrosh counts as a 1handed weapon as well, which means you can 2hand it to gain Uncanny Blow. Thats nice. It does have Rage, but seldom uses it because he only gets one use per day.

Anyway, hope you like it. Its not a water orc, but dwarves are cooler anyway.

Bulwer
2008-12-10, 11:56 PM
The DM is ... nervous about psionics, though there's no outright ban.

What exactly is entailed in an Ubercharger or Lockdown figher?

Is a tripper or overrunner build viable?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-10, 11:59 PM
Lockdown uses a combo of Stand Still, Imp Trip, and similar feats to force enemies within his reach to not move, helped by a weapon like the Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, and boosted size, meaning enemies have to waste their attacks on him while his allies blast them from out of range with arrows/spells. Ubercharger is a blaster fighter, based around using Combat Brute, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and PA with a 2-hander to deal something akin to ∞ damage on a charge.

BizzaroStormy
2008-12-11, 12:16 AM
If done properly, you could keep up with what a 6th level TOB Martial would be but its would be much less work to just break down and try a warblade. I hated ToB before too, but that was only because I was unfamiliar with it and preferred to just rage it up then beat down everything in a 3 mile radius...Up until my group got pissed at me for my frenzied berserker not being able to control himself after a fight and smashing the rogue into chunks.

As for keeping up with spellcasters...no. Melee starts out owning casters and starts having trouble the minute you hit around level 8 or whenever they start getting spells like fly (although quick enough ubercharger could take down the wizard and two of his buddies before they can grab their pouches.) and invisibility.

Then again this is why you travel in a party. Let your archer and caster put down the enemy caster(s) while you turn everything else into a fine red mist.

Blackfang108
2008-12-11, 09:54 AM
If done properly, you could keep up with what a 6th level TOB Martial would be but its would be much less work to just break down and try a warblade.

...

Then again this is why you travel in a party. Let your archer and caster put down the enemy caster(s) while you turn everything else into a fine red mist.

I'm going to have to agree with this statement.

At least try statting out a Warblade, and look at some of the Stances and Manuvers(sp?) you qualify for at your current level. You're sure to find something that helps raise your opinion.

EDIT: remember, your hatred is, in your words: IRRATIONAL. You can at least MAKE a ToB Warblade before you decide to use it. Take a few hours and the ToB, and stat one out, starting at level 1 and going level by level until you reach where you should be.

STR and INT are your friends, and Dex helps.

KKL
2008-12-11, 10:02 AM
STR and CON are your friends, and Dex helps. Get 12 Int, it'll be enough.

Fixed for truthiness and good stat placement.

Human Paragon 3
2008-12-11, 10:06 AM
I'll suggest a slightly different route, a simpler one that should be easier for you and your DM to agree on.

Go with the Sneak Attack Fighter variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter)from unearthed arcana and focus on sneak attack feats and/or two weapon fighting. If you fight with a staff (or double weapon) you can twf on full attacks and two-hand/power attack on charges and standard attack options.

There are a LOT of great sneak attack feats in Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel and PhBII but my favorite is staggering strike which forces your target to make nigh-impossibly high saves when you hit and staggers them (meaning they can't full attack or move and attack).

You won't do as much damage as an ubercharger, but staggering your opponent every turn has a lot to be said for it, and your teamates will thank you. Furthermore, sneak attack is a lot of fun.

Another way to get this would be to use the generic warrior found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior), focussing on generic sneak attack, twf, and the aforemetioned sneak attack feats. Since you'll get to choose your skills, you'll also be a serviciable skill monkey with this build, provided you also have a decent INT score. Note that you'll need to make Hide and Move Silently class skills to get sneak attack as a generic character, not that there's any problem with that. Adaptable flanker from the phbII lets you sneak attack more often, but I'm sure a lot of people on here can tell you easier ways to get sneak attacks with magic items.

If you think your campaign will have a lot of sneak-attack imune enemies (such as plants, constructs, oozes or undead), forget this advice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-11, 10:08 AM
Fixed for truthiness and good stat placement.

Warblade gets Int bonus to a lot of stuff, wheras Dex over 16 is irrelevant to a Warblade due to Mithral Full Plate. Blackfang got it right.

As to the OP, have you considered Chains Fall Everyone Dies type build? Spiked Chain is a 2h weapon, so can be used with an Ubercharger build, but also have Improved Trip AND you can use Combat Reflexes/Robliar's Gambit for all kinds of goodness.

Krrth
2008-12-11, 10:13 AM
If you don't mind using third party books, I'd recommend the Blademaster from Wheel of Time. Part of the class ability allows you to simply declare a hit to be maximum damage a certain number of times per day, based on your level (can't use this ability on a crit. At level 6 you can use the ability 12 times per day.). Other abilities allow you to add one to your crit multiplier (level 6, twice per day). You get improved critical for free at level 7, weapon focus and weapon specialization with any sword you use, and at level 9 you get improved whirlwind attack for free.(half move and still whirlwind.)

KKL
2008-12-11, 10:14 AM
Warblade gets Int bonus to a lot of stuff

You're a frontliner, con is important, and an int mod of 1 is still taking good advantage of the abilities you get :| I don't see the point of cutting into important stats for a few more points into the various Battle features, when 12 suffices.

Another_Poet
2008-12-11, 10:18 AM
One suggestion that hasn't been made:

Make a non-healing cleric. Introduce yourself to the group as a pious warrior, and make sure that holy symbol is worn under your clothing. You can melee with the best of them and then turn to your spells when need be.

Just don't let anyone (other than the DM) know you're a cleric till after chargen, or you'll be the party bandaid.

The Mormegil
2008-12-11, 10:20 AM
Fixed for truthiness and good stat placement.

Hmm... Just my 2cp, but it largely depends on the Warblade build. Eternal Blade has a great hunger for Int, and if you're going to lvl 15 it's worth having enough Int for the opportunity attack goodness...

Also, can you use LA templates? And LA buyoff from Unearthed Arcana? If you can... well the sky's the limit here.

ericgrau
2008-12-11, 10:54 AM
Dunno about ToB, but keeping up with rage is not hard at all. Just taking the fighter tree will make your stats about as good or better for most levels. Not for early levels and level 20, but then the barb doesn't get too many rages/day at early levels and level 20 only lasts 1 level. With prestige classes I'll bet you could do even better, but again I dunno.

woodenbandman
2008-12-11, 11:41 AM
Have a look over at the Magic of Incarnum and roll up a totemist. You can be the bestest beatstick ever if you want, especially at low levels. At level six is a good place, because you can get sphinx claws and girallon arms for pouncing with 4 + 3 claws plus rend, and you can stack bites and stuff onto that. Level 20 is the sweet spot, though, because you can invest a few essentia into your soulmeld and, I **** you not, grapple the tarrasque.

imperialspectre
2008-12-11, 11:59 AM
You're a frontliner, con is important, and an int mod of 1 is still taking good advantage of the abilities you get :| I don't see the point of cutting into important stats for a few more points into the various Battle features, when 12 suffices.

Um, did you see the OP stats? Three 18s and three 16s.

STR 22 (18+4 racial)
DEX 16
CON 20 (18+2 racial)
INT 16 (18-2 racial)
WIS 14 (16-2 racial)
CHA 14 (16-2 racial)

That's an outstanding stat array for a Warblade (or some kinds of rogue, or a wizard gish, or all kinds of psionic smack involving the Slayer PrC, or the World's Smartest Barbarian, who's also the World's Smartest Orc).

At least stat up the warblade and see what you can do. It's really quite fun, and the warblade is by far the easiest of the ToB classes to learn with--it has lots of HP and bonus feat options, some generally good passives, and your maneuvers refresh really easily, so you pick your favorites and roll with it.

Eloel
2008-12-11, 12:03 PM
I'm building a melee combatant for a high-powered campaign starting at level 6. I've decided on a Water Orc for the race, and I have good numbers to play with. It's +4STR,+2CON,-2Mental(All), and the stat spread is 3 18s and 3 16s, or something else that adds up to 20 or 21 total modifier.

I was originally looking at a soulknife or one of the 3rd party variants that make it not suck, but I'm not sure at all. I've got an irrational hatred for the Tome of Battle, and being a Barbarian doesn't fit the character I want.

What are my options for a martial character that can keep up with relatively optimized spellcasters from level 6 onwards? All books are fair game.

1- Race should be human for extra feat
2- 18-18-18-18-18-10 stats add up to 20 modifier, use 12 for Cha, if you can get away with it
3- Get a monk (+8 to AC from wisdom and dex, +4 to Stunning Fist save DC from wisdom, +4 to hit from strength, +4 HP/level from con, +4 skillpoints/level [16 for first level])
4- ???
5- Profit!

Waspinator
2008-12-11, 12:56 PM
Psychic Warrior. Grow giant claws and then beat things up.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 01:08 PM
Also try Incarnum.

Draz74
2008-12-11, 01:10 PM
I'd actually suggest a Dungeoncrasher myself. Though it might require changing your race to something with Powerful Build, and also would require (eventually) a bit of psionics.

You can do the straight Psychic Warrior "King of Smack" style. You have the stats to pull it off. And I'm always a fan of the Psychic Warrior. :smallsmile:

You expressed interest in a Trip-focused build. That's the "Lockdown" build people have mentioned. One thing to be forewarned about with this is: it gets a lot better with at least a little bit of ToB added. Do you mind learning one maneuver and one stance via feats, as long as you don't have to take any ToB class levels?

Artanis
2008-12-11, 01:16 PM
The DM is ... nervous about psionics, though there's no outright ban.
If he's fine with ToB, then he should be fine with a Psychic Warrior. Just tell him, "you know how ToB classes hit things with pointy objects, using some vaguely magic-resembling abilities to do so better? A Psychic Warrior does the exact same thing."


But I agree with the others who are saying to at least look at ToB.

Burley
2008-12-11, 01:24 PM
Glaive-lock? Is that too un-martially for you?

Tacoma
2008-12-11, 03:50 PM
One suggestion that hasn't been made:

Make a non-healing cleric. Introduce yourself to the group as a pious warrior, and make sure that holy symbol is worn under your clothing. You can melee with the best of them and then turn to your spells when need be.

Just don't let anyone (other than the DM) know you're a cleric till after chargen, or you'll be the party bandaid.

I played in a group once that felt a Cleric should pretty much just heal every round and do nothing else.

I played a Cleric of Armok, God of Blood. I'll heal you after combat, I said, but unless you can't survive a one-on-one fight with your own opponent it would be a sin for me to heal you. Your blood on the earth is a prayer for your own salvation.

The party wizard decided to convert to the God of Self-Sufficiency and refused to cast any spells for me. Just me. And he let me know it was because I wasn't willing to be their band-aid.

So I claimed that his god would view it as a sin for him to accept my healing whatsoever. Turns out Raise Dead trumps Teleport in usefulness.

To the OP:

Power Attack, two handed weapon, maximum STR. They tack on more stuff with this "Ubercharger" but what it really comes down to is Power Attack is broken but nobody's willing to fix it. So there you go!

PS Is a Water Orc just an orc who lives underwater? Or is he made of water?

Can he drink himself?

Blackfang108
2008-12-11, 03:56 PM
PS Is a Water Orc just an orc who lives underwater? Or is he made of water?

Can he drink himself?

Try looking here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs)

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-11, 03:57 PM
To the OP:

Power Attack, two handed weapon, maximum STR. They tack on more stuff with this "Ubercharger" but what it really comes down to is Power Attack is broken but nobody's willing to fix it. So there you go!
Pffft.


PS Is a Water Orc just an orc who lives underwater? Or is he made of water?

Can he drink himself?

I drink your water orc! I drink it up!

Proven_Paradox
2008-12-11, 03:59 PM
I'll join the voices suggesting trying something from the ToB out; it's great fun for me. If you don't want to do that though, I'll join the voices suggesting looking into Incarnum and going with a totemist. With the right soulmelds, your full attack array could look something like bite/slam/slam/claw/claw. You might be able to get wings, gore, and a tail in there too--I can't remember all the natural attack soulmelds off the top of my head.

Blackfang108
2008-12-11, 04:02 PM
I'll join the voices suggesting trying something from the ToB out; it's great fun for me. If you don't want to do that though, I'll join the voices suggesting looking into Incarnum and going with a totemist. With the right soulmelds, your full attack array could look something like bite/slam/slam/claw/claw. You might be able to get wings, gore, and a tail in there too--I can't remember all the natural attack soulmelds off the top of my head.

I like the belt that gives you "Awesome Blow" as one size larger and Natural armor per investment.

I'm not sure how many of those you can do at once.

Deepblue706
2008-12-11, 04:05 PM
"the stat spread is 3 18s and 3 16s, or something else that adds up to 20 or 21 total modifier."

Wow.

Uh...

Well, 18s in physical stats, rest in mental. If your info is correct, then you should have INT 13+

Fighter6
1: Combat Expertise
1F: Improved Trip
2F: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush
4F: Improved Sunder
6: Cleave
6F: Shock Trooper

Carry a Heavy Flail or Guisarme. Charge at your enemies, and kill them (Shock Trooper, Cleave). If they survive, trip them (Improved Trip). If you can't trip them, break their stuff until they cry and surrender (Improved Sunder). If they have no stuff to break, push them off a cliff (Improved Bull Rush).

Skills should include Ride (Horses rock. Make sure you also carry a Lance, btw), Craft (Weaponry) to repair the weapons you might destroy, so that you can still sell them (paying a third to get half-back is still a profit) and Intimidate, so you have social ability. Handle Animal is also pretty badass, although it's better if you've got feats that let you do a lot with just Standard Actions (Rangers and Druids do it better, since they don't need to spend their move actions to control animals - they do it freely). You can rear all sorts of crazy animals and have them do your bidding. You could have a Rhino mount, eventually.

Bulwer
2008-12-11, 04:46 PM
I think I'm going to sidestep the issue by going Fighter 6 and multiclassing or PrCing starting next level.

Now, unless I miscount, I have 3 feats, and 4 fighter feats and 9(INT+2) skill points. Is there a list somewhere of the non-core feats that can be fighter bonus feats?

I'm going to be Monkey Gripping a Large Spiked Chain (it's 2d6 damage, I think). EDIT: and a reach of 20, or is it 15?

Now, it's just a question of laying out my feats.

3 regular : Monkey Grip, Improved Trip, Shock Trooper OR Combat Brute
4 Fighter : EWP(Chain), Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm

How does this look? Are there any really awesome PrCs that I should aim for next level?

Person_Man
2008-12-11, 04:55 PM
Dragon Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99253), Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22), Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633), Blinky the Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4666858&postcount=5), Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97025), Knight builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5096224&postcount=16), how to hit your enemy 95% of the time every time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51489).

Questions?

Human Paragon 3
2008-12-11, 04:55 PM
Exotic Weapons Master in Complete Warrior gives you some neat tricks, such as Uncanny Blow.

Bulwer
2008-12-11, 05:00 PM
Now that I think about it, is a Large Spiked Chain worth two feats?

CthulhuM
2008-12-11, 05:35 PM
Now that I think about it, is a Large Spiked Chain worth two feats?

Not even remotely. Monkey Gripping it won't increase your reach (reach is determined by character size, not weapon size), so you're basically spending a feat for the right to take a -2 on all attacks in exchange for a +2 on damage. So basically power attack, except strictly worse and without the ability to turn it on and off.

If you do want to increase your reach, you can do it by taking Aberration Blood (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Aberration_Blood,all)
and Inhuman Reach (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Inhuman_Reach,all). After that, you may be able to convince your DM that your arms count as "nonrigid" and take Extended Reach (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Extended_Reach,all), for a total reach of 30 feet with your spiked chain. Then take Combat Reflexes and go to town on the battlefield. At higher levels you'll probably have enough feats to combine it with a tripping build, for a 30 foot radius lockdown.

Deepblue706
2008-12-11, 05:36 PM
Now that I think about it, is a Large Spiked Chain worth two feats?

Not really. You could argue a normal Spiked Chain isn't worth the one - it's a flail that trades the ability to Sunder for extra reach (piercing can't really do the trick).

Actually, if the spiked chain was just um...a chain, it'd be better. Get EWP: Chain.

But not Monkey Grip. Just use Power Attack for extra damage.

dobu
2008-12-11, 06:21 PM
you could try the cavestalker PrC when going for spiked chain. it let's you use the spiked chain one handed. in combination with exotic weapon master, there should be some cool tricks :-)

or imagine a two weapon fighting tripping spiked chain machine ;)

Kantolin
2008-12-11, 06:45 PM
PS Is a Water Orc just an orc who lives underwater? Or is he made of water?

Can he drink himself?

I... I now want to find an orc who is, in fact, composed of water.

*Goes to mull over homebrew*

Curmudgeon
2008-12-11, 06:52 PM
A Fighter basically has feats and equipment to get the job done. There are plenty of builds that concentrate everything on getting the most damage in a single round, but they tend to be one-trick ponies: they're awesome when they work, but enemies tend to wise up and keep them from working thereafter. You can instead concentrate on getting lots of attacks, with good damage every time. This generally takes lots of feats, and a reach weapon. You'll improve your meleer by finding other ways to get more feats and abilities. One level of the broken extremely powerful Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion) will give you pounce, allowing for full attacks with charges; feel free to ignore the 1/day rage this level also awards. Various skill tricks (Complete Scoundrel) will help you out: Nimble Charge and Twisted Charge, for instance. These are almost as good as feats; they're just limited to one use per encounter.

Equipment can increase your feat budget. A Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) will give you the following:
Improved Unarmed Strike feat
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat
CON damage on a critical unarmed strike
Improved Unarmed Strike is the prerequisite for Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), which gives you an extra unarmed attack with any of the following:
standard action melee attack
full attack with at least one melee attack
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip
Having an unarmed strike also allows you to use a two-handed reach weapon like a glaive and still threaten at 5' -- without spending a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) and getting only 2d4 base damage. An unarmed strike has qualities armor spikes lack: ability to trip, and qualification for Snap Kick. You'll do piddling unarmed damage (1d4), but adding a Monk's Belt will up that to 2d6 (same as a greatsword), making your Snap Kicks serious enough to give you an advantage in skirmish-type combat when you can't often full attack. With two attacks on every AoO you can get good value from Combat Reflexes, and feats that give you extra AoOs: Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior) and Robilar's Gambit (Players Handbook II). You'll also want Improved Trip, and will likely want to trip unarmed much of the time so that you'll be close enough to add a Snap Kick to the bonus attack after you trip an opponent. If you don't mind the weirdness, you can get a Long Arm graft (Fiend Folio) and have an unarmed reach of 10'. Being able to trip and attack the prone foe twice with a standard action at 10' reach is significant.

Steadfast Boots (Magic Item Compendium) give you +4 to resist trip, overrun, and bull rush; plus they treat you as always ready to receive a charge if you carry a two-handed weapon, granting double damage on the AoO provided -- even with a weapon you can't normally set to receive a charge. This always-on charge protection is an extremely valuable capability. The combination of two-handed weapon plus Steadfast Boots are even better than having the Hold the Line (Complete Warrior) feat because of the double damage. (You could do both, and get two AoOs when someone charges at you: one for the charge itself, and another for entering a square you threaten as part of the charge. But you'd only be able to add a Snap Kick if they had to get to 5' to attack you with their charge.)

lord_khaine
2008-12-11, 07:41 PM
i throw in my voice for either giving ToB a honest chance, or if that fails, to try something psionic.

Artanis
2008-12-11, 08:17 PM
Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion) will give you pounce, allowing for full attacks with charges;
This reminds me of something almost entirely unrelated to the quoted post:

Psychic Warriors get a power that lets the charge and then full attack.

Draz74
2008-12-11, 08:23 PM
Dragon Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99253), Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22), Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633), Blinky the Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4666858&postcount=5), how to hit your enemy 95% of the time every time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51489).

Questions?

Heh. Homer is so wrong, yet so loveable. Truly a beautiful abuse of the wonderful stuff Dungeoncrasher started.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-11, 08:51 PM
This reminds me of something almost entirely unrelated to the quoted post:

Psychic Warriors get a power that lets the charge and then full attack. I know, but I recommended the single level dip into variant Barbarian instead of 2+ levels of PsyWar because of this:

The DM is ... nervous about psionics, though there's no outright ban. Pounce is an ability right up there with stuff in ToB. A single level that's (ignoring rage 1/day) otherwise not much different from Fighter levels just seemed like a better fit than multiple levels of a psionic class, given the DM's attitude.

Artanis
2008-12-11, 08:56 PM
Yeah. I was just sayin', is all.

Draz74
2008-12-11, 09:52 PM
Pounce is an ability right up there with stuff in ToB. A single level that's (ignoring rage 1/day) otherwise not much different from Fighter levels just seemed like a better fit than multiple levels of a psionic class, given the DM's attitude.

Huh. Now, see, if I were DM, I would totally ban the Barbarian version, and allow the other two. :smallyuk:

Just depends whether the DM can actually judge which abilities are more and less overpowered, or whether he just looks at the source/fluff and gives a reflexive reaction.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-11, 10:09 PM
Just depends whether the DM can actually judge which abilities are more and less overpowered, or whether he just looks at the source/fluff and gives a reflexive reaction. I agree that Complete Champion introduced a much cheaper way of getting pounce. On the other hand, that's nothing compared to Iron Heart Surge. :smallyuk: So if the objective is to make a martial meleer that doesn't use rage or ToB maneuvers -- but can keep up -- then you're pretty much forced to endure some limburger aroma. :smallredface:

After all, if there were an easy answer then the OP wouldn't have needed to ask.

Eldariel
2008-12-11, 10:15 PM
Dungeoncrasher?

Sinfire Titan
2008-12-11, 10:51 PM
Psychic Warrior is easily the best option.

I'll contest this statement with a claim of my own:


Totemist.

Aquillion
2008-12-11, 11:58 PM
What are my options for a martial character that can keep up with relatively optimized spellcasters from level 6 onwards? All books are fair game.At level 6, perhaps you have some options (which people have listed.) Past level 6, it becomes increasingly difficult. On top of that, as you probably already know, the two sets of martial classes you've rejected out of hand are among the ones that are the easiest to optimize, in general.

I am guessing you don't want to play a cleric or druid for your martial character? They can be perfectly good melee-oriented types if you want, while keeping their other abilities in reserve; druids can be basically played as mystical barbarians, while a cleric can manage quite a martial theme. The Wild Shape Ranger Variant isn't bad either; it gives you considerable versatility while retaining a martial theme beneath it. But that might still be too 'magical' for you.

Absent that, your best bet is to focus on doing one thing very well (e.g. damage) and ignoring everything else. The problem is there's very little outside the ToB that lets a martial character get anywhere near the versatility of a well-optimized spellcaster; if you don't mind being outshown in terms of versatility, you can still do plenty fine at producing large numbers when you swing your weapons and making enemies fall down. But at higher levels, with optimized casters, this will frequently just devolve into finishing off things your allies have already effectively handled.

...alternatively, you could go skill-monkey with a martial flavor; there are more options there, and it can be easy to flavor a skill-monkey in a martial fashion.

Draz74
2008-12-12, 02:33 AM
I agree that Complete Champion introduced a much cheaper way of getting pounce. On the other hand, that's nothing compared to Iron Heart Surge. :smallyuk: So if the objective is to make a martial meleer that doesn't use rage or ToB maneuvers -- but can keep up -- then you're pretty much forced to endure some limburger aroma. :smallredface:

After all, if there were an easy answer then the OP wouldn't have needed to ask.

Meh ... Iron Heart Surge doesn't bother me so much. Partly because it's so easy to avoid among all the choices available in ToB. Partly because it's ambiguous rather than explicitly overpowered; there's a lot of room for the DM to interpret it so that it isn't all that bad. And partly because I'm not quite sick yet of seeing it on overpowered builds, like I am with Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian Dips.

Sorry, in my strange value system, Barbarian Pounce is cheesier than IHS.

KKL
2008-12-12, 02:46 AM
White Raven Tactics is more awesome than Iron Heart Surge anyways. :D

herrhauptmann
2008-12-12, 03:16 AM
My Urgrosh (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=17395408#post17395408) build does more damage than most things using ToB except for a few crazy Stormguard or Shadow Pounce builds. I'm actually in the process of revamping it, with the 2nd level of Exotic Weapon Master because I realized that an Urgrosh counts as a 1handed weapon as well, which means you can 2hand it to gain Uncanny Blow. Thats nice. It does have Rage, but seldom uses it because he only gets one use per day.

Anyway, hope you like it. Its not a water orc, but dwarves are cooler anyway.

The thing is Keld, there's some errors in build. The aforementioned: "No dwarf god uses an urgrosh (or d. waraxe)." So you have to burn up extra feats if you want both pious templar and exotic weapon master. (Can minimize by cleric 1, war domain).
Melee mastery will give you spec/focus in god's favored weapon to an urgrosh, but he's starting at like level 6.
Deepdweller is nice for con to AC, but he's got 3 18's and 3 16's, he doesn't need it.
And I don't know where you're grabbing 'Hold the Line' from, but unless it's been errata'd, it has a few prereqs you're not meeting at level 3.

Telonius
2008-12-12, 10:31 AM
You're a frontliner, con is important, and an int mod of 1 is still taking good advantage of the abilities you get :| I don't see the point of cutting into important stats for a few more points into the various Battle features, when 12 suffices.

You might bump that up to 13, depending on whether or not you're taking Improved Trip.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-12, 12:05 PM
My first suggestion would be an Arcane Gish. However, since the OP said he'd like to go with a Fighter 6 Spiked Chain Tripper, I'll go ahead and throw out some ideas for that. If you'll be good-aligned, make a Water Orc + Dragonborn of Bahamut from Races of the Dragon, that changes your stats to Str +4, Con +4, and a -2 Dex, Int, Wis, Cha. You'd have Str 22, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14. Take the breath attack ability from that, and get the feat Entangling Exhalation from the same book. Entangled opponents move at half speed, so they won't be able to make a 5' adjustment, which means any movement at all will provoke an AoO. Get the feat Recover Breath from the Draconomicon and you can probably keep an entire encounter constantly entangled. The feat Ability Focus from the good old Monster Manual can be taken to increase the DC, but even if they make the save they'll be entangled unless they have evasion or energy resistance.

Take the feat Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), originally printed in both Deities and Demigods and Sword and Fist. If you can switch your ability scores around a little, maybe make Wis or Int lower to boost Cha, get the feat Frightful Presence from the Draconomicon. Ability Focus can also be taken to increase that DC. Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness are excellent choices, you should also consider taking Waterspawn and/or Starspawn from that same line of feats as they'll greatly make up for your lack of spellcasting. The Mage Slayer line of feats from Complete Arcane is also good to consider, as are the Combat Focus of feats from PH2.

Exotic Weapon Master is good for the Trip Attack trick, but I wouldn't take more than one level of it. One excellent class to mitigate your weaknesses is Occult Slayer, which could easily be played off as someone who's superstitious against magic or even opposed to a specific group of magic users rather than hateful of anyone who can wield magic.