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Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-10, 11:47 PM
I've recently been thinking about using fire weapons for my paladin. The trouble is, all accounts I've read on the CharOp boards indicate that fire weapons are only useful in the hands of tieflings. My character being a half-elf, the tieflings options are unavailable to me. I know why fire is a poor element to choose for a weapon, as almost every monster and their dog has fire resistance, and radiant energy is a much better choice for paladins in general. On the other hand, fire fits in with my character very well, being a paladin of Pelor and a devotee of the burning, cleansing sun.

Is there any way to even the score for non-tieflings who wanna play with fire? Or should I just forget it?

Grynning
2008-12-10, 11:54 PM
Well, radiant damage could easily look and feel like fire. I can't remember right now if there's a weapon enchant for it, but just calling all your radiant stuff "holy fire" and saying it has a red-orange fiery look sounds like a good solution. Hell, Pelor is sometimes called "The Radiant One" so radiance seems to fit you quite well thematically.

Also, fire isn't *only* useful in the hands of tieflings, it's just much better that way. If optimization isn't an issue, just go with it, who cares?

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-11, 12:04 AM
I was lookin' at this pic for inspiration:

http://fc17.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/7/4/Cinereo_by_andreauderzo.jpg

And fire and radiant are supposed to look different aren't they? Radiant as holy white light, like a flashlight or something, while fire looks like...well, fire!

Grynning
2008-12-11, 12:09 AM
Powers *look* how YOU want them to look, as long as there's no mechanical change. Fluff is fluff. Same can apply to a weapon. The description of the Radiant Weapon (p. 76 of AV) says that it "Burns with glowing radiant energy." You know what we call burning, radiant energy in real life? Fire.

Edit: The radiant weapon isn't available until higher levels though. There's nothing wrong with sticking with a fire weapon at the heroic tier.

Mando Knight
2008-12-11, 12:10 AM
Actually, if you're using radiant powers, a fire sword won't be that bad. I don't think there are any monsters with both radiant and fire resistance other than demons, who are randomly resistant...

...however, for some reason, none of the Charisma based Weapon powers have the radiant keyword. I mean, I see "Radiant" in the keywords, and I look down and it's a Charisma power... and then I see that it's an Implement attack. Seriously.

Oh... wait. There's one. Hospitaller Paragon path's level 20 daily. That's it.

You'd be better off with a Fire & Flame approach if you were a Strength based paladin. Dragonborn or Warforged is preferable.

However, if you've already rolled up the character, at epic levels take Irresistible Flame. Kills the fire resistance of almost anything... except Tiamat and the older Red dragons.


Perhaps we'll just have to wait for Divine Power and/or PHB II. :smallsigh:

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-11, 12:32 AM
Here's my build-plan, if it helps any. My character hasn't made it to level 2 yet.

Character Information
Race: Half-Elf
Class: Paladin (Multiclass: Warlord).
Paragon Path: Knight Commander.
Epic Destiny: Demigod.

Starting Ability Scores:
Str 14, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 18.

Ability Score Boosts:
4 - +1 Dex, +1 Cha
8 - +1 Dex, +1 Str
11 - +1 to all
14 - +1 Str, +1 Cha
18 - +1 Str, +1 Dex
21 - +1 to all (Demigod: +2 Str, +2 Cha)
24 - (Unsure at the moment)
28 - (Unsure at the moment)

Final Ability Scores (by level 21):
Str 21, Con 15, Dex 17, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 24.

Trained Skills:
Diplomacy, Endurance (from Student of Battle), Heal, Insight, Religion

Gear:
Bastard Sword, Heavy Shield, Plate Armor

Power Selection
1, At-Will: Holy Strike, Bolstering Strike.
1, Encounter: Piercing Stirke, Furious Smash (from Dilletante).
1, Daily: Radiant Delirium.
2, Utility: Astral Speech (replaced with Shake It Off after multiclassing).
3, Encounter: Righteous Smite.
5, Daily: Sign of Vulnerability.
6, Utility: Wrath of the Gods.
7, Encounter: Thunder Smite.
9, Daily: Radiant Pulse.
10, Utility: Cleansing Spirit.
11, Encounter: Slash and Press.
12, Utility: Break Their Nerve.
13, Encounter: Renewing Strike (replaces Piercing Strike).
15, Daily: True Nemesis (replaces Radiant Pulse).
16, Utility: Death Ward.
17, Encounter: Hand of the Gods (replaces Thunder Smite).
19, Daily: Righteous Inferno (replaces Radiant Delirium).
20, Daily: Control the Field.
22, Utility:.
23, Encounter:.
25, Daily:.
26, Utility: Divine Regeneration.
27, Encounter:.
29, Daily:.


Feat Selection
1. Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
2. Group Insight
4. Human Perseverance
6. Student of Battle (Endurance)
8. Acolyte Power
10. Astral Fire (retrained for Heavy Blade Opportunity at 11)
11. Shield Specialization
12. Action Recovery
14. Danger Sense
16. Point Blank Shot
18. Improved Initiative
20. Weapon Focus (heavy blades)
21. Heavy Blade Mastery
22.
24.
26.
28.
30.
[/QUOTE]

Grynning
2008-12-11, 12:45 AM
I'm just waiting for the Tylenol PM to kick in at this point, so unfortunately I can't give too many pointers on the build. Looks fine to me overall. Honestly the type of magic weapon you use doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference in 4th ed, it's just some of them have better daily powers. Also remember it will depend heavily on what the DM makes available.

KKL
2008-12-11, 12:49 AM
Just use the blasted flaming sword, tiny mechanical advantage or not. It's a flaming sword, what's not to like about it, fire resistance aside? Note that your sword isn't flaming. It's either flaming or flaming, never flaming.

Mauril Everleaf
2008-12-11, 02:28 AM
I'm AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure that Point Blank Shot only works with ranged weapons, so unless you plan on hurling that Bastard Sword, you may consider picking up something more useful. If you hadn't planned to immediately train out of Astral Fire, I was going to comment on that one too. Since you have taken the Student of Battle feat, you would qualify for some of the Warlord feats from Martial Power, if you have access to it. You may look at some of those.

Starsinger
2008-12-11, 02:36 AM
Remember, you can always turn the fire damage off.

Prak
2008-12-11, 06:56 AM
Is there any way to even the score for non-tieflings who wanna play with fire? Or should I just forget it?
Yes, there is a way.

1)Put down the 4th edition book, maybe even in a nice roaring fire.
2)Run to the nearest available set of 3.5 books
3)Play 3.5 and be glad that it's not as frakked up as 4th.



(I was sorely tempted to make step 2 "..." and step 3 "profit!!")

archmage45
2008-12-11, 07:13 AM
Yes, there is a way.

1)Put down the 4th edition book, maybe even in a nice roaring fire.
2)Run to the nearest available set of 3.5 books
3)Play 3.5 and be glad that it's not as frakked up as 4th.



(I was sorely tempted to make step 2 "..." and step 3 "profit!!")

1. Note that this is a 4e thread.
2. Refrain from 3.5 suggestions
3. ...
4. Profit!

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-11, 07:15 AM
Yes, there is a way.

1)Put down the 4th edition book, maybe even in a nice roaring fire.
2)Run to the nearest available set of 3.5 books
3)Play 3.5 and be glad that it's not as frakked up as 4th.


:sigh:

Listen, the reason that CharOp says "Fire for Tieflings only" is because Tieflings get a ridiculous feat that gives the +1 to hit and damage for Fire and Fear attacks. You are not gimping your character by walking around with a fire sword; yes many monsters are resistant to it, but you can turn it off too. It's still a +X sword, and that'll let you hit and damage with your Paladin powers. Plus, all the other non-fire resistant monsters can still be affected by the sword's Daily. And let's be honest: it's always fun to set zombies on fire.

Just go with it, you'll be fine. Trust me.

The Mormegil
2008-12-11, 07:24 AM
Aside from anti-4E comments, and just skipping the comments we could make about what you just said, let's talk about flaming swords.

Well, sure, they are bad, but not THAT bad... And they have got their uses. Personally, I'd just reflavor a Sunlade, but... if you really want to keep the fire damage, I'd just grab it and use it, and enjoy it. End of question. Maybe it's not the best weapon you could get, but... it's not the worse either. And don't forget that it depends mostly on your DM what magic items you'll have, since selling and buying is discouraged. So be nice to him...

Prak
2008-12-11, 07:42 AM
:sigh:

Listen, the reason that CharOp says "Fire for Tieflings only" is because Tieflings get a ridiculous feat that gives the +1 to hit and damage for Fire and Fear attacks. You are not gimping your character by walking around with a fire sword; yes many monsters are resistant to it, but you can turn it off too. It's still a +X sword, and that'll let you hit and damage with your Paladin powers. Plus, all the other non-fire resistant monsters can still be affected by the sword's Daily. And let's be honest: it's always fun to set zombies on fire.

Just go with it, you'll be fine. Trust me.

rediculous feat... +1 to hit and damage... with fire and fear attacks...

I rest my case...

but, that aside, it deriously does sound like you'd be fine with a non-tiefling weilding fire.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-11, 07:45 AM
rediculous feat... +1 to hit and damage... with fire and fear attacks...

I rest my case...

:smallsigh: Not to get into a whole 4E discussion but feats that grant a bonus to hit in 4E are few and far between. In fact, all the other similar feats (Astral Fire for example) only provide +1 damage. For whatever reason, Tieflings get a serious boost and nobody else does. That's what makes it ridiculous.

Hopefully this is edifying to you.

Prak
2008-12-11, 07:59 AM
Ok, yes, it's rediculous compared to 4e feats... but if you compare 4e feats to 3.5 feats.... well, it's rediculous in an entirely different way...

fractic
2008-12-11, 08:18 AM
:smallsigh: Not to get into a whole 4E discussion but feats that grant a bonus to hit in 4E are few and far between. In fact, all the other similar feats (Astral Fire for example) only provide +1 damage. For whatever reason, Tieflings get a serious boost and nobody else does. That's what makes it ridiculous.


Don't forget that Astral Fire and the similar feats actually get +1 damage per tier while Hellfire blood doesn't scale at all.

KKL
2008-12-11, 09:05 AM
Tieflings get a serious boost
The +1 to hit with Fire/Fear isn't even as ridiculous as say...Tiefling TWF Fighters with the entire Cunning Ambusher/Infernal Wrath/whatever else in Martial Power.

I witnessed firsthand a TWF Tiefling Fighter deal just around 350ish damage in a single turn using a single attack form quicksilver stance, dual strike, and rain of blows. The rain of blows was also entirely unneeded, he just wanted to go all out. True, the entire fight was him attacking and destroying his HP via bloowclaw, but that kind of damage is retarded silly.

It's a boost, yes, but it's not the end of the world, or ridiculous.

Prak, I kindly request you to leave this topic. Completely. Just, go.

Blackfang108
2008-12-11, 09:46 AM
Which Warlord At-Will are you taking for "Student of Battle"?

Personally, I'd reccommend Wolf Pack Tactics, if you have a Rogue or Ranger.

The Mormegil
2008-12-11, 10:01 AM
Which Warlord At-Will are you taking for "Student of Battle"?

Personally, I'd reccommend Wolf Pack Tactics, if you have a Rogue or Ranger.
I think Student of Battle is the PHB feat, so it's inspiring word 1/day.


The +1 to hit with Fire/Fear isn't even as ridiculous as say...Tiefling TWF Fighters with the entire Cunning Ambusher/Infernal Wrath/whatever else in Martial Power.

I witnessed firsthand a TWF Tiefling Fighter deal just around 350ish damage in a single turn using a single attack form quicksilver stance, dual strike, and rain of blows. The rain of blows was also entirely unneeded, he just wanted to go all out. True, the entire fight was him attacking and destroying his HP via bloowclaw, but that kind of damage is retarded silly.

It's a boost, yes, but it's not the end of the world, or ridiculous.

Hmmm... may I ask how is it possible? It would be kinda intresting...

Also, it's not ridiculous, it's just the only way for Tieflings to be able to melee, even if they lack the needed stat bonuses. Not even going into Sordmage territory here, anyway. I mean Martial melee.

KKL
2008-12-11, 10:07 AM
Hmmm... may I ask how is it possible?

Actually, I'm not too great at explaining, so I'll just link you to the character's stats. Ishi (http://www.big-metto.net/RP_Wiki/index.php?title=Ishi).

Hzurr
2008-12-11, 10:24 AM
This thread actually makes me a bit sad.

1st off, not wanting to take something just because it isn't teh ooober optiml choiz!!!11!! seems silly. As a few other people have mentioned, it isn't a build-breaking choice. So you don't qualify for 1 feat. Big deal??

Also, you're level 2, and you know every power you'll be taking for the next 20+ levels? I mean, having an idea about where you're headed is one thing, but to me this takes some of the joy out of leveling up and of character growth, because all the decisions have already been made.

I recognize that this is mainly a difference in play style between the origional poster and I, but it still makes me sad. :smallfrown:

Anyway, I agree that you should go with what your concept is. Who cares if you're not the most awesome fighter ever made? You'll still be effective, and you'll still have fun.

The Mormegil
2008-12-11, 10:34 AM
Heh, there really IS everything on wikipedia... Anyway, I don't think the problem is with Tieflings. It's with Tempest Fighters, Double Swords and Rain of Blows.

EDIT: I just realized that the same character could have been even better focusing on Wis and going Pit Fighter/Marked Scourge. And that's not really Tiefling dependant...

Blackfang108
2008-12-11, 10:38 AM
I think Student of Battle is the PHB feat, so it's inspiring word 1/day.

Right...

I'm playing AS a warlord...

I keep forgetting that.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-11, 10:45 AM
First off, I plan on playing both 3.5 and 4e. Best of both worlds. Let's drop the comparisons between editions now.

Secondly, I believe Point Blank Shot is there for the ranged attack powers.

Thirdly, it's been reccomended that there is another "entry" feat for multiclassing into Warlord that's ultimately more effective.

Mando Knight
2008-12-11, 10:46 AM
Actually, I just thought of this: Don't take Weapon Focus. You've got a flaming sword, which adds the "Fire" keyword to your attacks, and thus qualifies for Astral Fire. Almost everyone on the boards everywhere agrees with the surprisingly consistent (For CustServ and the Errata) ruling that Weapon Focus and Astral Fire don't stack.

Astral Fire applies to more attacks than Weapon Focus if you're a paladin with a firey or radiant weapon, and Irresistible Flame is probably more important than Heavy Blade Mastery...

Mauril Everleaf
2008-12-11, 11:01 AM
Good point Mando. Both add a +1 feat bonus, which doesn't stack. And in regards to Point Blank Shot, I for some reason under the impression that the text said "ranged weapon attacks" but it does not. Carry on then. Nothing to see here.

Asbestos
2008-12-11, 01:37 PM
Secondly, I believe Point Blank Shot is there for the ranged attack powers.


I'd suggest Impetuous Charger or Phalanx Warrior here if you want to have a more leader-like feel.



Thirdly, it's been reccomended that there is another "entry" feat for multiclassing into Warlord that's ultimately more effective.

Well, the one that you meet the prereqs for is called 'Inspiring Leader', its in Martial Power. Instead of Inspiring Word 1/day you can act like a watered down inspiring presence warlord 1/encounter. If your party is leaderless it might be better than a 1/day heal.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-11, 02:04 PM
Inspiring leader was the one I was thinking of. Is it a good idea to abandon Weapon Focus and Heavy Blade Mastery though? The Paladin's Handbook says Weapon Focus is essential for every paladin right from the start, except for dwarves, who get Dwarven Weapon Training.

Asbestos
2008-12-11, 02:14 PM
Inspiring leader was the one I was thinking of. Is it a good idea to abandon Weapon Focus and Heavy Blade Mastery though? The Paladin's Handbook says Weapon Focus is essential for every paladin right from the start, except for dwarves, who get Dwarven Weapon Training.

As others have said, Astral Fire and Weapon Focus don't stack so... that frees up one feat right?

Suleman
2008-12-11, 05:30 PM
I recently played a LE (Alignment house-ruled) Hobgoblin Paladin. Both the DM and I agreed that radiant damage wouldn't work, so we arranged it so that every radiant damage attack instead dealt equivalent fire damage, even if it's obviously weaker than radiant if you look at the rules. He became a paladin of elemental fire, which was just plain cool.
At a higher level, I'm considering giving him a flaming maul of some kind, which is, fluff-wise, basically a hollow, slitted Iron globe on an iron pole, full of everflaming coals. A brazier maul. Not sure if this was actually relevant to the discussion.
I'll just say that fire weapons are too cool for just one race to use. Don't care what the optimizers say

Artanis
2008-12-11, 05:51 PM
I recently played a LE (Alignment house-ruled)
Just a note: if you read the description of 4e-Evil, it's pretty clear that it's pretty much the same thing as 3e-LE. Same goes for 4e-Good being pretty much 3e-CG.

Roland St. Jude
2008-12-11, 06:26 PM
...Let's drop the comparisons between editions now...

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please. This kind of edition sniping is essentially trolling at this point. Comparisons are one thing. Popping in just to say "play a different edition" or "edition x sucks" is not at all civil.

Tacoma
2008-12-11, 06:54 PM
Get a sword that is on fire, and then get it enchanted so the fire is also on fire. Then dip it in kerosene.

Artanis
2008-12-11, 08:13 PM
That sounds like the really bad joke about how you make a cat sound like a dog.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-11, 10:28 PM
This thread actually makes me a bit sad.

1st off, not wanting to take something just because it isn't teh ooober optiml choiz!!!11!! seems silly. As a few other people have mentioned, it isn't a build-breaking choice. So you don't qualify for 1 feat. Big deal??

Also, you're level 2, and you know every power you'll be taking for the next 20+ levels? I mean, having an idea about where you're headed is one thing, but to me this takes some of the joy out of leveling up and of character growth, because all the decisions have already been made.

I recognize that this is mainly a difference in play style between the origional poster and I, but it still makes me sad. :smallfrown:

Anyway, I agree that you should go with what your concept is. Who cares if you're not the most awesome fighter ever made? You'll still be effective, and you'll still have fun.

I'm not level 2 yet. I'm level 1. I probably should have made that clearer.

The reason I like to plan out everything in advance is so I don't have to worry about choosing when I level up and whether or not I'm going to be effective or not, so I can focus on roleplaying and whether or not I'm playing my character right.

And there's a reason I care if I'm not the most awesome fighter ever made. Our group has a tendency to come dangerously close to death, and I aim to prevent that, both by taking the enemy down before they can do a lot of damage and playing medic as well.

Colmarr
2008-12-11, 10:51 PM
Also, you're level 2, and you know every power you'll be taking for the next 20+ levels? I mean, having an idea about where you're headed is one thing, but to me this takes some of the joy out of leveling up and of character growth, because all the decisions have already been made.

I recognize that this is mainly a difference in play style between the origional poster and I, but it still makes me sad. :smallfrown:

An interesting comment.

When making my current FR character I meticulously planned my ability scores and feat progression, because there's very little chance of undoing those choices once you start a campaign.

When it came to skills and powers, though, I was much more wilful, because I knew I could (and in fact have) change those choices as you level. I have in fact deliberately not looked at any of the available powers that are more than 1 level above my character level, because I want there to be something cool to see as I level.

It's definitely a personal choice thing.

Grynning
2008-12-12, 12:36 AM
An interesting comment.

When making my current FR character I meticulously planned my ability scores and feat progression, because there's very little chance of undoing those choices once you start a campaign.

When it came to skills and powers, though, I was much more wilful, because I knew I could (and in fact have) change those choices as you level. I have in fact deliberately not looked at any of the available powers that are more than 1 level above my character level, because I want there to be something cool to see as I level.

It's definitely a personal choice thing.

This has been my experience as well. To an extent, you have to plan out your feats in advance, because they usually have at least a couple of prerequisites that you won't be able to meet until a certain level. Also feats tend to synergize with each other and with class features; you need to know what your going to pick when for them to work. Powers, on the other hand, are much easier to choose spontaneously, because you get them automatically and most of them are tailored for one build or another. You level, look over you new list of goodies, and pick what you like best. It's a nice compromise between optimization and organic character growth.

Prak
2008-12-12, 01:29 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please. This kind of edition sniping is essentially trolling at this point. Comparisons are one thing. Popping in just to say "play a different edition" or "edition x sucks" is not at all civil.

{Scrubbed - Please address issues like this privately, via PM}

KKL
2008-12-12, 02:08 AM
{Scrubbed}

Artanis
2008-12-12, 03:05 AM
{Scrubbed}

Knaight
2008-12-12, 07:58 AM
I recently played a LE (Alignment house-ruled) Hobgoblin Paladin. Both the DM and I agreed that radiant damage wouldn't work, so we arranged it so that every radiant damage attack instead dealt equivalent fire damage, even if it's obviously weaker than radiant if you look at the rules.

Thats actually pretty odd, as star pact warlocks do radiant damage, and these guys get their power from the scary evil things in the sky. Radiant and good have lost some connection, and as for stuff like undead, they are often hosed by sunlight in movies and such, piercing beams of silvery moonlight burning their skin and breaking DNA bonds should be doing extra damage.

Artanis
2008-12-12, 11:15 AM
Yeah, that's why they changed it to "Radiant" and "Necrotic", as opposed to "Good/Holy" and "Evil/Unholy". Not that it does much good :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2008-12-12, 11:18 AM
Here's my build-plan, if it helps any. My character hasn't made it to level 2 yet.

Have you considered:
Swordmage with pally training?
or Pally with Swordmage training?

Swordmages have as flaming sword attack (at will).

Mando Knight
2008-12-12, 11:27 AM
or Pally with Swordmage training?

Swordmages have as flaming sword attack (at will).

This is probably a bad idea: Swordmage powers are all Intelligence-based, and 4E paladins have no use for Intelligence (for Sword Paladins, it's their only dump stat), so by multiclassing Swordmage, you're going to have to pull points from everything else in order to actually hit with the attack.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-12, 12:56 PM
I concur. There were three multiclasses for paladins that were expressly forbidden in the handbook. Swordmage was one of them. A swordmage multiclassing into paladin would work better, but I've already made my character so that option's closed to me.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-12, 06:54 PM
So should I just take Astral Fire and forget Weapon Focus?:smallconfused:

KKL
2008-12-12, 08:32 PM
I actually like Weapon Focus over the various elemental damage feats.

Mando Knight
2008-12-12, 08:38 PM
I actually like Weapon Focus over the various elemental damage feats.

That's true... except for the fact that he's got a flaming weapon. That plus the fact that his implement attacks will be radiant as well, Astral Fire is probably the better bet. If he were a Dragonborn, then it would be even more a given if he had Fire as one of his elemental breath types.

KKL
2008-12-12, 08:43 PM
That's true... except for the fact that he's got a flaming weapon. That plus the fact that his implement attacks will be radiant as well, Astral Fire is probably the better bet. If he were a Dragonborn, then it would be even more a given if he had Fire as one of his elemental breath types.

Isn't he a Strengthadin?

FoE
2008-12-12, 08:48 PM
:smallsigh: Not to get into a whole 4E discussion but feats that grant a bonus to hit in 4E are few and far between. In fact, all the other similar feats (Astral Fire for example) only provide +1 damage. For whatever reason, Tieflings get a serious boost and nobody else does. That's what makes it ridiculous.

I think they put in that feat because tieflings don't get a bonus to the Ability Scores that an infernal warlock needs. So they can use Hellfire Blood, which basically works with every power in the infernolock's arsenal.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-12, 09:21 PM
Isn't he a Strengthadin?

More like a Strengthadin wannabe. My strength wasn't optimal starting out, and since I wanted Heavy Blade Mastery I've been looking for stat allocations that allow me to get there. I'm trying to be as balanced as I can, because I basically want to be able to do anything a paladin can do at least competently.

Prak
2008-12-12, 10:38 PM
{Scrubbed}

I was providing assistance that came from my point of view, which just so happens to be one that doesn't like 4e (yes, I know, I was trolling by even coming into and responding to this thread...).

However, I did provide actual assistance later on, saying, basically "Okay, you don't qualify for the one feat that makes fire ideal for tieflings, move on, play a paladin that uses fire, and don't worry about that feat.

KKL
2008-12-12, 10:42 PM
I was providing assistance that came from my point of view, which just so happens to be one that doesn't like 4e (yes, I know, I was trolling by even coming into and responding to this thread...).

{Scrubbed. He's admitted his error, no need to beat him over the head with such a hyperbolic metaphor.}

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-12, 10:46 PM
Or say, going into a 3.5e thread about making a melee character useful and teling them to play 4e because 3.5e is terrible. You seem to have missed how many people do that. :smallmad:

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-12, 10:47 PM
Let's just drop the argument and discuss the matter at hand, please. I'd rather not have to ask to have my own thread locked.:smallannoyed:

KKL
2008-12-12, 10:51 PM
You seem to have missed how many people do that. :smallmad:
I'm making a comparison here.

@Zousha: I'm afraid I don't know Paladins enough to help you, aside from "Don't try to be respectable at both."

Mando Knight
2008-12-12, 11:13 PM
{Scrubbed}

As a member of aforementioned group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder), I heartily agree. :smallannoyed:

Anyway! Back to the on-topic discussion! The following support for using Astral Fire:

1. Holy Strike (a Strengthadin At-Will) is radiant.
2. Firey Swords are Firey. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CaptainObvious)
3. Astral Fire likes Fire and Radiance.
4. Character in question also likes Fire and Radiance.
5. ???
6. Profit!

Roland St. Jude
2008-12-12, 11:14 PM
Let's just drop the argument and discuss the matter at hand, please. I'd rather not have to ask to have my own thread locked.:smallannoyed:

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please do drop it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-12, 11:57 PM
As a member of aforementioned group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder), I heartily agree. :smallannoyed:

Anyway! Back to the on-topic discussion! The following support for using Astral Fire:

1. Holy Strike (a Strengthadin At-Will) is radiant.
2. Firey Swords are Firey. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CaptainObvious)
3. Astral Fire likes Fire and Radiance.
4. Character in question also likes Fire and Radiance.
5. ???
6. Profit!

But Holy Strike is weapon-based, is it not?

Mando Knight
2008-12-13, 12:01 AM
But it is also Radiant, and thus Astral Fire activates.

herrhauptmann
2008-12-13, 02:11 AM
EDIT: Reread the opener...
So there's a feat that tieflings can take that improves their attack/damage with a fire weapon, and no one else can take it. So anyone but a tiefling that uses a fire weapon is underpowered?

Thats like saying a human or dragonborn with an axe or hammer is underpowered compared to a dwarf with axe or hammer, because dwarves can get a bonus on damage with the feat 'dwarven weapon training.'
That's way off.
The dwarf gets the extra damage with the axe because he spent a feat on it. A dragonborn or human with identical combat stats(str dex con) with an axe will not be weaker than the dwarf, he'll just be strong in a different manner. Because they will have not used a feat for bonus damage, which can be used for something else something else. Say action surge for a human.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-13, 10:09 AM
But Astral Fire would only activate to deal the damage, and wouldn't offer a to-hit bonus like Weapon Focus does. At least I think that's how it works.

allonym
2008-12-13, 10:13 AM
Weapon focus is only damage.

(IIRC: am away from books)

Mando Knight
2008-12-13, 12:25 PM
Weapon focus is only damage.

(IIRC: am away from books)

You are correct. Weapon Focus, sadly, does not increase your ability to hit with a weapon, just your ability to kill stuff when you do hit with it.

Your character concept uses a fire sword and radiant powers. It really makes no difference, except whether you want to have other powers (Implement powers and item powers with Radiant or Fire keywords) increase their damage, or if you're turning the fire on and off all the time.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-13, 12:41 PM
I don't even have a fire sword yet. I'm only level 1!

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-14, 12:02 AM
Am I overthinking this?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-14, 12:08 AM
Yes.

Seriously, just go with the flow - particularly about gear!

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-14, 12:35 AM
I don't want the party to die because I suck though.:smalleek:

Starsinger
2008-12-14, 12:42 AM
I don't want the party to die because I suck though.:smalleek:

Don't worry, this is 4e, unless you suck in a really obvious ZOMFG NOOB sort of way, the party won't die "because you suck"

Knaight
2008-12-14, 12:56 AM
Besides character building has taken a back seat to tactics and such anyways, or rather tactics have caught up.

Mando Knight
2008-12-14, 01:05 AM
I don't want the party to die because I suck though.:smalleek:

Ask yourself this: Are you a glowing Black Hole of Armor, drawing enemies in towards yourself under threat of radiant pain, immune to their blows due to your thousand pounds of metal?

If yes (metaphorically), it won't matter how much damage you put out, or how powerful your healing abilities are, your duty is to mock the worthless pests while your friends stick arrows and knives into their guts.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-14, 11:08 AM
Ask yourself this: Are you a glowing Black Hole of Armor, drawing enemies in towards yourself under threat of radiant pain, immune to their blows due to your thousand pounds of metal?

If yes (metaphorically), it won't matter how much damage you put out, or how powerful your healing abilities are, your duty is to mock the worthless pests while your friends stick arrows and knives into their guts.

Fun story - I was playing a LV 13 Dragonborn Paladin (Champion of Order) and I was able to tank a Mindflayer Mastermind (LV 18 Elite) for 5 rounds with only minimal damage. Didn't even have Leader support; just stood there and took it.

Divine Challenge FTW. :smallbiggrin:

Best of all, if I had gotten a flank and some Combat Assists, I could have landed an effect that would have dazed & weakened the Mindflayer as long as my Mark stayed up. This makes it substantially easier for a party of under-equipped LV 13 characters to take on an Elite five levels over them.

And no, I don't know why the DM kept sending us against people we couldn't conceivably hit.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-14, 11:38 AM
Ask yourself this: Are you a glowing Black Hole of Armor, drawing enemies in towards yourself under threat of radiant pain, immune to their blows due to your thousand pounds of metal?

If yes (metaphorically), it won't matter how much damage you put out, or how powerful your healing abilities are, your duty is to mock the worthless pests while your friends stick arrows and knives into their guts.

So far that seems to fit the description of our party's warforged fighter than me. I'm spending more time running around the battlefield trying to get to the goblins because they keep diving for the rogues immediately.

KKL
2008-12-14, 11:53 AM
Best of all, if I had gotten a flank and some Combat Assists, I could have landed an effect that would have dazed & weakened the Mindflayer as long as my Mark stayed up. This makes it substantially easier for a party of under-equipped LV 13 characters to take on an Elite five levels over them.

Certain Justice.

As a player, I love it. As someone who will be DMing, I have a mind to nerf it into the ground. Or at least reduce the hit bonus, I mean jesus christ on a pogo stick, it's Str+4 vs AC.

Mando Knight
2008-12-14, 12:06 PM
I'm spending more time running around the battlefield trying to get to the goblins because they keep diving for the rogues immediately.

You want to hold the goblins down. Divine Challenge one, move up, and slap it with a power. Now the goblin shouldn't want to attack someone else, but those handy rogues fly in for a flank and sneak attack damage dice. If the goblin tries attacking one of them, he takes damage, and a penalty to the attack. If he tries attacking you, you should be safely encased in plate armor and a heavy shield. Keep attacking the same opponent until the rogues bring it down (or you smite its head off with one of your attacks), then move on to the next target. Keep a javelin or ranged power handy just in case. (in this case, Quick Draw is helpful...)

Suleman
2008-12-14, 12:27 PM
Thats actually pretty odd, as star pact warlocks do radiant damage, and these guys get their power from the scary evil things in the sky. Radiant and good have lost some connection, and as for stuff like undead, they are often hosed by sunlight in movies and such, piercing beams of silvery moonlight burning their skin and breaking DNA bonds should be doing extra damage.

It wasn't about the fact that he was evil, it was more about the fact that fire just works so much better for a holy warrior of a hobgoblin warband, conceptually. Not everything that is divine needs to be radiant.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-14, 12:41 PM
You want to hold the goblins down. Divine Challenge one, move up, and slap it with a power. Now the goblin shouldn't want to attack someone else, but those handy rogues fly in for a flank and sneak attack damage dice. If the goblin tries attacking one of them, he takes damage, and a penalty to the attack. If he tries attacking you, you should be safely encased in plate armor and a heavy shield. Keep attacking the same opponent until the rogues bring it down (or you smite its head off with one of your attacks), then move on to the next target. Keep a javelin or ranged power handy just in case. (in this case, Quick Draw is helpful...)

The issue is that we've got a big party. We have one controller, and we just got a leader, but we also have two defenders (including me) and three strikers (A rogue/warlock, a rogue and a ranger). And the other defender's a lot better at hitting things than I am. I feel useless now that we've got an actual cleric. Anything I can do, someone else in the party can do better.

Grey_Wolf_c
2008-12-14, 05:19 PM
The issue is that we've got a big party. We have one controller, and we just got a leader, but we also have two defenders (including me) and three strikers (A rogue/warlock, a rogue and a ranger). And the other defender's a lot better at hitting things than I am. I feel useless now that we've got an actual cleric. Anything I can do, someone else in the party can do better.

I'm fairly new at 4E, but I have to point out that, as a defender, your job is not to "hit things better" - that would be a striker - but to stop enemies from hitting your team members. Given that you combat-challange at a distance, that should be easy. If they attack you, you're difficult to hit and can soak damage. If they don't attack you, they take 7 damage (8 with astral fire) and they get a nice -2 to hit, which at low levels is definitely a big issue. In the mean time, have some fun bashing in skulls, but don't feel that you're not a good player because you don't damage often - you're job is done when the enemies attack you, or miss your companions. Everything else is just frosting on your cake.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-14, 10:02 PM
Kinda difficult to take damage for the team when 15 points of damage is enough to bring me close to death.

allonym
2008-12-14, 10:17 PM
Forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but because I don't see how that's actually possible for a paladin, have you fallen into one of the most common pitfalls of going from 3.5 to 4e?

For your hit points at first level, you add onto the base amount for your class your Constitution score (which should probably be about 14), and not your modifier.

If not, then, explain how one decent hit almost kills you!

Mando Knight
2008-12-14, 10:53 PM
You've got 28 hit points. A 15-point blow will bloody you, yes, but not kill you. What comes next is your Friendly Neighborhood Leader-Man's ability to heal you right back up. You shouldn't see too many 15 point hits yet, anyway...

herrhauptmann
2008-12-14, 10:54 PM
Maybe he means it makes him bloodied? (half dead)
That's still better than first level in 3.5, where 15 points puts everyone but the 18 con barbarian into negatives.

edit: Ninja'd. I gotta type faster... Spend your move action to second wind. That'll give you a bonus to defense (less likely to get hit next round) and another round to stay alive and soak up hits.

My first 4e battle went like that. We took too long entering a room, so monster tripped the trap on me. Then spent the next 5 rounds get shot by 2 auto tracking turret crossbows, twice each. I absorbed almost every point of healing our cleric and warlord had to give, but stopped everyone else from getting shot at until thief could go and disarm the things.

allonym
2008-12-14, 10:59 PM
Meh, defenders go down in combat, healers pick them up again.

Minor action heal should stop that from happening too often, though, and paladins generally get more AC than anyone else, at least at level 1.

Artanis
2008-12-15, 12:31 AM
Kinda difficult to take damage for the team when 15 points of damage is enough to bring me close to death.
Like the others say, you aren't going to be taking 15 points of damage per hit very often at level 1. At level 1, the absolute toughest recommended encounter level is level 5, and looking in the MM, the Young Green Dragon (a level 5 solo skirmisher) does an average of 12 or 13 damage per hit. So if you can still be standing after two hits from the absolute upper limit of the DMG's suggested enemy power, you can see that you'll be alright against more typical enemies.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 01:45 AM
Forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but because I don't see how that's actually possible for a paladin, have you fallen into one of the most common pitfalls of going from 3.5 to 4e?

For your hit points at first level, you add onto the base amount for your class your Constitution score (which should probably be about 14), and not your modifier.

If not, then, explain how one decent hit almost kills you!

No no, I added my score to my initial hitpoints. I just consider any hit point amount under 50% to be near death. In my opinion, if you don't have full hitpoints at the beginning of the fight and heal immediately after, you will lose the fight and YOU WILL DIE!!!

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-15, 01:49 AM
Certain Justice.

As a player, I love it. As someone who will be DMing, I have a mind to nerf it into the ground. Or at least reduce the hit bonus, I mean jesus christ on a pogo stick, it's Str+4 vs AC.

See, the trick is that it ends when the Mark ends. Sure the Paladin can slap it on the obvious Leader early on, but all it takes is an Immobilize or a screen of minions for one turn to break it. And it takes the Paladin out of doing any other spot-tanking; like if one of the enemy Lurkers or a pair of Skirmishers breaks through the back line.

If you have a Fighter and a Paladin then yeah, it's really good. But there are lots of ways of breaking the Paladin's mark; you just need to think about it.

EDIT:
On topic - a Defender getting bloodied is not being almost dead. It's practically the normal course of business. Yes, ideally the Defender isn't going to get hit a lot, but at low levels, a solid hit from a Skirmisher or Lurker can sometimes knock you straight down. In this situation, you get the Leader to pop a Healing Surge (of which Paladins have thousands), or you lean up next to your Mark and use your Second Wind (still locked down!), or you use one of your powers (like Lay on Hands) to take you back up to 3/4 HP.

Trust me, you're fine. Just have a talk with your Leader's player about how important it is to heal the Defender when he's bloodied. If he's a Cleric, he'll probably be able to heal you to full with a single Healing Word; if he's a Warlord you'll still be OK even at low levels.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 02:04 AM
He's playing a doppleganger cleric of Erathis. We're not exactly on good terms with each other though. Besides, all he's had the character do is stand watching the fight clutching her scythe and going "Eeeeek!" :smallannoyed:

Starsinger
2008-12-15, 02:24 AM
He's playing a doppleganger cleric of Erathis. We're not exactly on good terms with each other though. Besides, all he's had the character do is stand watching the fight clutching her scythe and going "Eeeeek!" :smallannoyed:

How not "Work with others to achieve your goals. Community and order are always stronger than the disjointed efforts of lone individuals." The cleric should learn her deity...

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-15, 05:48 AM
How not "Work with others to achieve your goals. Community and order are always stronger than the disjointed efforts of lone individuals." The cleric should learn her deity...

Seriously. And what's with the scythe? Is he a city farmer or something? :smallconfused:

As for "being useful:" unless your other Defender is a Paladin, you should do the one thing only Paladins can do - lock down a big threat all by himself. Let the Fighter do crowd control; you go straight for the enemy Leader (taking OAs if you must) and drop a Divine Challenge on him. Let's see him try something now! :smallamused:

For added lulz, take Quick Draw and a one-handed thrown weapon that you can have in plentiful supply. Mark the Leader, and (while staying away from the rest of your party) keep chucking stuff at the Leader to keep the Mark up. Now the Leader has to try and pin you down while devoting other troops to try and get you to drop the Mark. As a CHA Paladin, that Mark's gonna hurt if he violates it :smallbiggrin:

And if your other Defender is a Paladin? One of you take crowd control, the other take Lock Down. If he's a STR Paladin, he should take Crowd Control. If you're both CHA, then the one with the better OA gets Crowd Control.

Oh, and there's never too much Leadership in a party. At 1st level you can't do much with an MC anyhow, so just grin and remember that you are a MC Warlord, not a real Warlord.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 09:20 AM
I'll focus on Lockdown then, since the other defender's a warforged fighter.

And as for the cleric, I have no idea how that player's mind works. His previous characters have almost always been from some wierd homebrew race that's blind, and has no concept of pain, since they don't feel it and they torture themselves simply because they can and have all sorts of crazy scars and control over shadows and stuff. And they can apparently sniff things out like a dog. And before that he played some godlike kobold (no relation to Pun-Pun), with an even more godlike squid sitting on his head all the time. And now he's playing a half-dragon that hates paladins and clerics becasue she was raised by undead, and thinks they're decent people, drinks molten metal and eats human flesh. He's gotten on the nerves of almost everyone on the forum this is being played on because he godmods and because of his bizzare characters trying to steal the spotlight from others when its their moment.

Artanis
2008-12-15, 12:11 PM
That sounds...yeah.

But that still won't change your durability relative to the rest of the party. Hopefully the DM will alter the encounters and enemy tactics to account for your cleric being useless, letting you still come through things as well as would be expected in a normal situation. And if he doesn't...well...there's only so much you can do.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 01:39 PM
We haven't even finished the fight she joined in yet. That's the problem with playing online. There's no reason to keep play going quickly.