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Kesnit
2008-12-11, 01:49 PM
First, I want to say I am in no way defending the class. My question comes from not having played one/seen one played and just reading about the class. OK, that said...

What is so awful about this class? It has less MAD than a Cleric (no need for WIS), gets the TWF tree for free, and can do battlefield control. While none of those are must-haves, they don't add up (to my uninformed mind) to the widespread hate.

Help?

Gorbash
2008-12-11, 01:52 PM
Oh god, not another one.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-11, 01:52 PM
First, I want to say I am in no way defending the class. My question comes from not having played one/seen one played and just reading about the class. OK, that said...

What is so awful about this class? It has less MAD than a Cleric (no need for WIS), gets the TWF tree for free, and can do battlefield control. While none of those are must-haves, they don't add up (to my uninformed mind) to the widespread hate.

Help?Compare it to the Fighter, one of the weakest classes in the game. What does the Samurai have that the Fighter doesn't?

Also, the Cleric doesn't have MAD. it has one attribute it needs, everything else is gravy.

kamikasei
2008-12-11, 01:55 PM
The standard criticisms:
- It's a Fighter with pre-chosen, and weak, feats. (Plus, TWF with no bonus damage.)
- Its "battlefield control" ability is simply too weak to do its job.

mikej
2008-12-11, 01:57 PM
Compare it to the Fighter, one of the weakest classes in the game. What does the Samurai have that the Fighter doesn't?

The ability to shout and gain pluses in battle ?

CW Samurai is truly horrible both in design & play, I seen it played ( player at the time just saw Afro Samurai ) and its basically a worse fighter that lacks the versatility of all those bonus feats.

Kesnit
2008-12-11, 01:59 PM
Thanks. That's what I wanted to know

Who_Da_Halfling
2008-12-11, 02:01 PM
On a different note, one of my players was interesting in developing a Ronin class (not necessarily for himself). I checked out the one in CW, and it's kinda bleh (besides being a prestige class).

Bottom line: Does anyone know of a decent Japan-themed warrior class? Is there a GOOD version of the samurai?

-JM

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-11, 02:04 PM
On a different note, one of my players was interesting in developing a Ronin class (not necessarily for himself). I checked out the one in CW, and it's kinda bleh (besides being a prestige class).

Bottom line: Does anyone know of a decent Japan-themed warrior class? Is there a GOOD version of the samurai?

-JMRe-fluff a Frenzied Berserker, Blackguard, or Crusader?

kamikasei
2008-12-11, 02:06 PM
Bottom line: Does anyone know of a decent Japan-themed warrior class? Is there a GOOD version of the samurai?

Fighter. Or, y'know, warblade or swordsage or another martial class.

You could probably build something readily enough, but you'd have to know what notions about samurai the player was trying to embody.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-11, 02:06 PM
The Oriental Adventures Samarai still needed a katana and a short sword to take full advantage of it's first class feature, but it was basically a Fighter with 4 skill points and good Will saves (and a code of honour).

Matthew
2008-12-11, 02:06 PM
Bottom line: Does anyone know of a decent Japan-themed warrior class? Is there a GOOD version of the samurai?

The version in Oriental Adventures is okay, but really you will be better off homebrewing something yourself if you want something better than a fighter, or perhaps look to Tome of Battle.

mikej
2008-12-11, 02:08 PM
Bottom line: Does anyone know of a decent Japan-themed warrior class? Is there a GOOD version of the samurai?

-JM

OA Samurai been mentioned, that plus the Iaijutsu Master PrC replicate a lot of the iconic Samurai stuff IMO.

Person_Man
2008-12-11, 03:00 PM
1) Weak bonus feats (bastard sword prof, TWF, Quick Draw)
2) TWF is mathmatically inferior to two handed fighting
3) Kiai Smite is limited to a small number per day
4) Dead levels
5) All the good Fear abilities don't even start to kick in until 10th level. By that ECL, many enemies will be immune to fear.
6) Everything the Samurai does can be replicated with feats and cheap magic items. For example, Frightful Presence (it's capstone) can be had for a feat or a draconic graft.

Maybe something like my homebrew Dragon Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5456760#post5456760), might work for you? Heck, you could remove all of the draconic features, and just keep the improved senses, Frightful Presence, and eventual DR and SR, and it'd still be twice as good as the Samurai.

afroakuma
2008-12-11, 03:44 PM
Both were so weak that I had to homebrew my own. Fortunately, reviews were better.

Kesnit
2008-12-11, 04:53 PM
Maybe something like my homebrew Dragon Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5456760#post5456760), might work for you? Heck, you could remove all of the draconic features, and just keep the improved senses, Frightful Presence, and eventual DR and SR, and it'd still be twice as good as the Samurai.

I wasn't asking because I want to play a Samurai. I only asked because I couldn't figure it out from reading the class description. :)

Shpadoinkle
2008-12-11, 05:01 PM
A warblade focused in Diamond Mind with some Iron Heart thrown in pretty closely duplicates what a lot of people think of when they hear the word samurai.

Starbuck_II
2008-12-11, 05:02 PM
1) Weak bonus feats (bastard sword prof, TWF, Quick Draw)
2) TWF is mathmatically inferior to two handed fighting
3) Kiai Smite is limited to a small number per day
4) Dead levels
5) All the good Fear abilities don't even start to kick in until 10th level. By that ECL, many enemies will be immune to fear.
6) Everything the Samurai does can be replicated with feats and cheap magic items. For example, Frightful Presence (it's capstone) can be had for a feat or a draconic graft.



Really, I don't get why they even did the Fear issue?

Kiai Smite would have been better if it applied to every attack you make:
1) Twfing classes make more than 1 attack
2) It would have provided the reward for Twfing (every attack wouldget bonus).

Really, they goofed.
Only Twfing without Dex requirements (and no armor issues unlike ranger) are good points.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-11, 05:03 PM
The OA variant presented in Rokugan (AEGs L5R d20 converion) is better than the straight up OA samurai. The short version is access to some nice feats, Technique feats and they spend exp instead of gold for daisho enhancements