Red Hand of Doom - DM's in a Pickle

[BladeOFGrass]

So, I'm running the Red Hand of Doom, and the party who currently consists of...

Shadow Human Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berzerker 1
Human Ranger 6/Darkwood Stalker that's been flavored for Gobliniods not Orcs 1
Glittergold Halfling Dragonfire Adept 7
Half-Orc Cleric 6/Brimstone Speaker 1 (Ever seen a half-orc preach the good word of Pelor, and by good word, I mean purging unbelievers with fire and divine might?)
Illumian Wizard 7

Party is somewhat optimized, but my problem comes from the Ghostlord, now normally parties give him his soul-jigamathing back, but my party is somewhat more...devious with it. The wizard rigged up five contingency spells on it in order to blackmail him.

The Wizard using help from the various resources in Brindol, which they visited using giant owls that the Tiri Kirdor allowed them to use, rigged up it up so if the Ghostlord keeps up his end of the deal it will teleport back to him and dispel all of the magic he rigged up on it, if the Ghostlord doesn't, it will be shattered, teleport back into the Ghostlord's hands and he'll be hit in the face with a Touch of Idoicy.

Without rules lawyering it, because they were really clever, what sort of reasonable support can the Ghostlord give them without screwing up the difficulty of Siege of Brindol, and what sort of VP should I award for it.

[Gorbash]

Cleric of Pelor would accept help from a Lich?

What's Brimstone Speaker anyways?

[BladeOFGrass]

Brimstone Speaker is a prestige class from the Tome of Magic who uses Truespeak to dole out lines of fire, and summons word archons.

The Cleric of Pelor said this, "There is nothing more satisfying the binding Pelor's enemies to His Fiery Radiance, we do not ask for your help. We demand your service." to the Lich who laughed at him.

[Gorbash]

Well, that Cleric is then the same as Azar Kul and the Red Hand Horde, since they're blackmailing Ghostlord, too. Demanding service, call it what you like, but Pelor is devoted to destroying undead, not making them obey you. That's the teritory of Vecna and Nerull.

[BladeOFGrass]

As far as he knows, Pelor supports his action. I may tell him that his actions have left him with a Mark of Disfavor, (a house-rule that punishes clerics and paladins with less uses of Turn Undead/Smite Evil until they find themselves back on the path instead of throwing them to the wolves.) or he may find that a different god supports his actions. The party pre-dominantly neutral.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Well, that Cleric is then the same as Azar Kul and the Red Hand Horde, since they're blackmailing Ghostlord, too. Demanding service, call it what you like, but Pelor is devoted to destroying undead, not making them obey you. That's the teritory of Vecna and Nerull.

But, you might be able to justify coercing undead into helping you as long as it will lead to the destruction of more enemies of the church.

[Saph]

Without rules lawyering it, because they were really clever, what sort of reasonable support can the Ghostlord give them without screwing up the difficulty of Siege of Brindol, and what sort of VP should I award for it.

Well, the obvious thing to do would be for the Ghostlord to use the undead he's already made (ghosts and bonedrinkers) to attack the hobgoblins instead of the humans. But I don't see any real reason why it would get as far as Brindol. Just give them a few VPs and have the action take place somewhere away from Brindol during Chapter 4.

The undead are unlikely to be all that discriminating about their targets, of course, and the PCs should expect some collateral damage, but hey, that's what you get for making these sort of deals.

- Saph

[RTGoodman]

Well, the obvious thing to do would be for the Ghostlord to use the undead he's already made (ghosts and bonedrinkers) to attack the hobgoblins instead of the humans. But I don't see any real reason why it would get as far as Brindol. Just give them a few VPs and have the action take place somewhere away from Brindol during Chapter 4.

Yep, that sounds about right to me. If you don't want to give them the risk of the undead attacking humans instead of hobbos, maybe you could give them the normal Victory Points for keeping the Ghostlord from helping the Red Hand AND maybe delay the army getting to Brindol by a day or so. That could give the PCs a chance to train more militia folks, plan better tactics, prepare more, and stuff like that.

[CthulhuM]

Just out of curiosity, how did the wizard rig the phylactery up with contingent spells, exactly? He's not high enough level for either craft contingent spell or contingency (which is personal only and has a 1-spell limit anyway).

[BladeOFGrass]

He pulled out four books to explain how he could do it and used his mentor wizard in Sharn, which sent the party on the mission in the first place. I basically rule of cool'd it.

[kjones]

He pulled out four books to explain how he could do it and used his mentor wizard in Sharn, which sent the party on the mission in the first place. I basically rule of cool'd it.

Well, there's your problem. You'd be well within your rights to nix this - or you would have, if you hadn't already let it happen.

Letting players break the rules because it's awesome is always dangerous.

How is he getting help from his mentor in Sharn? The Vale is supposed to be isolated. If you let your players "phone a friend", the campaign becomes much less exciting - the whole point is that nobody really cares about the Vale except for the poor saps who happen to live there.

[RTGoodman]

Well, there's your problem. You'd be well within your rights to nix this - or you would have, if you hadn't already let it happen.

Letting players break the rules because it's awesome is always dangerous.

Not necessarily. I mean, in the standard module the PCs are expect to (1) ignore the Ghostlord and make things hard for themselves; (2) kill the Ghostlord, which is supposed to be no mean feat; or (3) use blackmail extortion (the "x" makes it sound cooler) to get what they want. I mean, their strategy makes makes as much sense as the standard "Oh, he's afraid since you could destroy his soul-hidey-place, so he'll do what you want."

I think it's a pretty creative thing to do, and that's enough to make me say I'd probably allow it unless it was somehow game-breaking (which it isn't, considering it's the same outcome as is expected, just with a different method).

[Gorbash]

But, you might be able to justify coercing undead into helping you as long as it will lead to the destruction of more enemies of the church.

But coercion isn't really the way of a Neutral Good Undead-Hating god. What'd be the point of giving his clerics Greater Turning if he expects from them to blackmail (evil act) undead to work for him? He teaches his followers that kindness, mercy and compassion is the way to go, blackmailing evil creatures just makes you evil.


(2) kill the Ghostlord, which is supposed to be no mean feat;

Well, this is actually pretty easy. He has 3rd lvl spells and Undead Wild Shape. Against a party of even 4 people, he doesn't stand a chance.

[Saph]

How is he getting help from his mentor in Sharn? The Vale is supposed to be isolated. If you let your players "phone a friend", the campaign becomes much less exciting - the whole point is that nobody really cares about the Vale except for the poor saps who happen to live there.

Yeah, one high level spellcaster could probably destroy most of the horde singlehandedly. Red Hand of Doom doesn't really work if the PCs can call in high-level allies.

I have to say, 'he pulled out four books to show how he could do it' sounds an awful lot like an application of the 'Fast-Talk the DM' skill. :P Contingency effects have fairly strict restrictions that aren't easy to get around.

But anyway, this isn't answering your original question. I'd just give them an extra 2 VP and a day's delay, or maybe 1 VP and two day's delay; about the same as the players get for recruiting aid from the forest giants. You shouldn't give them any more than that; if an entire clan of forest giants are only a speedbump to the Red Hand, a unit of undead aren't going to turn the campaign. Either way, the battle for Brindol will play out the same.

- Saph

[kjones]

Yeah, one high level spellcaster could probably destroy most of the horde singlehandedly. Red Hand of Doom doesn't really work if the PCs can call in high-level allies.

I have to say, 'he pulled out four books to show how he could do it' sounds an awful lot like an application of the 'Fast-Talk the DM' skill. :P Contingency effects have fairly strict restrictions that aren't easy to get around.

But anyway, this isn't answering your original question. I'd just give them an extra 2 VP and a day's delay, or maybe 1 VP and two day's delay; about the same as the players get for recruiting aid from the forest giants. You shouldn't give them any more than that; if an entire clan of forest giants are only a speedbump to the Red Hand, a unit of undead aren't going to turn the campaign. Either way, the battle for Brindol will play out the same.

- Saph

Aren't the forest giants dying out? Or maybe that's just that one guy...

I'll admit that the basic premise of the Ghostlord is somewhat flawed - most people are going to want to destroy a lich, given the chance, and if you're not careful, they'll be able to pull it off.

Thus, the lich encounter works best if the players are not an actual threat to the lich. If they are, boost his power level accordingly. (Over 9000, if need be.)

This is assuming that you want to keep them from getting away with this. If so, you could always have the defenders of Brindol not understanding that the undead are on their side, and destroying them (taking casualties in the process). If you want to let them do it, just give them a victory point and call it a day.

[BladeOFGrass]

Oh, I'm sure the Wizard was just yanking my chain, he got to Sharn by a teleport scroll attuned to the Wizard's Sanctumtm, which he can only do once and the Wizard in question doesn't really care what happens, he just wants to test his band of adventurers. But, I think 2 vp and a one day speed bump is what I'll do. I'm going to make it clear that killing the Ghostlord after this is through is what Pelor demands to the Cleric so he has an out and I can...'revamp' the Ghostlord to make it a tough challenge.

Any thoughts on it without turning him into an actual wizard?

[AslanCross]

I have to say, 'he pulled out four books to show how he could do it' sounds an awful lot like an application of the 'Fast-Talk the DM' skill. :P Contingency effects have fairly strict restrictions that aren't easy to get around.


I have to agree with this. A couple of my players have tried it before on me, and once it even worked. (Someone playing a Rogue/Swordsage convinced me Assassin's Stance gave +4d6 Sneak dice if he already had rogue sneak attack.)

I chewed him out rather violently when I looked it up again. You might want to look up what he described and see if it really works to begin with.

[Saph]

Any thoughts on it without turning him into an actual wizard?

Give him another level or two of Blighter, and then use his spells effectively. Stinking Cloud is probably the most effective - the Ghostlord's immune to poison, so have him spam this all over the place.

He should also have a squad of ghost dire lion bodyguards. Really, if you read the background on the Ghostlord, it as much as says that he's been making ghost lions for centuries. The lair should be crammed with them - as soon as initiative's rolled, have them all manifest and stuff every 5' square of the battlefield full of ghost lions.

- Saph

[RTGoodman]

Well, this is actually pretty easy. He has 3rd lvl spells and Undead Wild Shape. Against a party of even 4 people, he doesn't stand a chance.

Well, hence the "should" in my statement. Giving him a few more Blighter levels and picking and choosing good spells from SpC and other sources should buff him up quite a bit.

[imperialspectre]

Oh, I'm sure the Wizard was just yanking my chain, he got to Sharn by a teleport scroll attuned to the Wizard's Sanctumtm, which he can only do once and the Wizard in question doesn't really care what happens, he just wants to test his band of adventurers.

Yeah, um, aside from the stacking contingency effects, which would be interesting for a wizard twice the level of the PC...

Touch of Idiocy is [Mind-Affecting]. As a lich, the Ghostlord is immune to mind-affecting effects. So at least as far as that part of the plan is concerned, your Wizard player probably needs to RTFM.

When it comes to amping up the Ghostlord a bit, first, listen to Saph, the friendly neighborhood expert on Red Hand of Doom. Also, you might consider revising his spell selection--at least if he expects to be fighting for his life, harm might be a better 5th-level selection (it's on the blighter list as available at both 5th and 6th levels) than create undead, and ray of enfeeblement is better than burning hands in almost any conceivable situation, let alone when the enemy have a Frenzied Berserker.

[Grail]

Simply have the Ghostlord transpose his soul from the phylactery to another one. Or have him dispel the contingency spells. Or have only 1 of them work at random.

This is a problem that you've brought upon yourself. As a DM, you need to be careful with the Rule of Cool, and should only apply it to instantaneous effects for fear that it will prove counter-productive to the campaign.

[arguskos]

The lair should be crammed with them - as soon as initiative's rolled, have them all manifest and stuff every 5' square of the battlefield full of ghost lions.
This statement made me giggle, since I suddenly envisioned the whole battlefield being stuffed to bursting with ghost lions. It seems like a good comedic sequence.

[Epic_Wizard]

This statement made me giggle, since I suddenly envisioned the whole battlefield being stuffed to bursting with ghost lions. It seems like a good comedic sequence.

One mouse summon later and you're back to a regular fight XD

I actually agree that since this is something that the players could have actually done (at least as far as I know) they should be allowed to do it. As for the actual effect on things the 2VP and an extra day are probably a good idea. (never actually read the Red Hand of Doom campaign but I have an idea of how it probably works from the Savage Tide campaign)

You could also, as an added twist, have the Phlactery port back to the Lich in the middle of the battle. The PC's are then attacked by an appropriate number of Ghost Lions:smallcool:

As was pointed out Contingency is tricky stuff and I really can't see a Lich letting someone who wronged him go about their business without at LEAST one assassination attempt.

If a random attack doesn't fit into the flow of the battle then it could happen just after the battle when the PC's are tired or maybe during one of the following nights. The fun bit would be if you caught the PC's without their armor on. Wouldn't do much against Ghost's anyways but it would make for an amusing bit of flavor.

[Grail]

As was pointed out Contingency is tricky stuff and I really can't see a Lich letting someone who wronged him go about their business without at LEAST one assassination attempt.


Lich's are generally pretty canny (:xykon: not withstanding), and are in it for the long-term. Running around trying to assassinate people is pretty low-grade stuff. Better for the Lich to plan and scheme, and then hit them where it really hurts. Get their families, or their finances, or undermine their political standing.

Now the GhostLord doesn't have that much pull outside of his own territory, but he would still have some ability to go the long-term route. Afterall, he lives forever.

[KillianHawkeye]

What exactly do they want the Ghostlord to do? If it's simple enough, he'd probably just do it, get his phylactery back, and hide it someplace that is actually safe this time.

A great place for him to hide it is under a rock at the bottom of that pool filled with the paralyzing (Dex-damaging) liquid that he uses to make his ghost lions. As an undead, he is immune to ability damage, so he can go down there or reform there without penalty. However, it becomes extremely difficult for most people to reach or even find it down there.

[kjones]

What exactly do they want the Ghostlord to do? If it's simple enough, he'd probably just do it, get his phylactery back, and hide it someplace that is actually safe this time.

A great place for him to hide it is under a rock at the bottom of that pool filled with the paralyzing (Dex-damaging) liquid that he uses to make his ghost lions. As an undead, he is immune to ability damage, so he can go down there or reform there without penalty. However, it becomes extremely difficult for most people to reach or even find it down there.

I dunno... Immunity to Dex damage is not that hard to get. Or you could just, I don't know, fish it out with a hooked pole...

Are you planning to continue the campaign after you finish the RHoD saga? If so, this lich is gonna have it for them baaaaaaaaad.

[KillianHawkeye]

That's why it's buried under a rock or something at the bottom of the pool. The players would never look there unless they knew that was where it was. I guess I should figure out a way to protect it from divinations, because I'm sure the players will come back there eventually.

[Epic_Wizard]

That's why it's buried under a rock or something at the bottom of the pool. The players would never look there unless they knew that was where it was. I guess I should figure out a way to protect it from divinations, because I'm sure the players will come back there eventually.

I can think of half a dozen ways around this. The best way I've heard of to hide a phylactery is in a cage of Invisible Immovable Rods with a ton of wards and anti-detection stuff cast on the whole mess. And throw a corpse in there for good measure. The odds of someone accidentally finding it are next to nothing and if you set up the wards right then searching it out is almost impossible too.

The whole bit with the Ghost lions may not exactly fit the persona of a Lich but then again you are the DM so you get to decide if he is pissed enough to make an immediate go at the PC's. It does remove a lot of the potential role playing issues with them going after him later and/or wanting to do so. Plus it adds a bit of challenge for what they gained.

[kjones]

I can think of half a dozen ways around this. The best way I've heard of to hide a phylactery is in a cage of Invisible Immovable Rods with a ton of wards and anti-detection stuff cast on the whole mess. And throw a corpse in there for good measure. The odds of someone accidentally finding it are next to nothing and if you set up the wards right then searching it out is almost impossible too.

The whole bit with the Ghost lions may not exactly fit the persona of a Lich but then again you are the DM so you get to decide if he is pissed enough to make an immediate go at the PC's. It does remove a lot of the potential role playing issues with them going after him later and/or wanting to do so. Plus it adds a bit of challenge for what they gained.

It may not fit your average run-of-the-mill lich very well, but it fits the anti-druid who spends all his time making ghost lions perfectly. Seriously, I don't understand why the place isn't full of the things. Where do they go? He's been at it for a while.

[Another_Poet]

Any thoughts on it without turning him into an actual wizard?

Yes!

First of all, the Lich is immune to Touch of Idiocy, as all Undead are. Even if he wasn't immune it would only affect him for, what, 70 min?

If he can scry and see what a silly spell choice the wizard is going to teleport to him, he might as well refuse to help. Destroying the phylactery doesn't kill him, and he can make a new one. Then he can come kill them.

If he can't scry and see what the wizard is up to, then he can't confirm what the PCs are saying and has no reason to believe that they'll give him back the phylactery if he helps. They're already threatening to destroy it, after all. He should hedge his bets and refuse to help, figuring they'll break the phylactery either way - but knowing that he is safer if he keeps his undead close to guard him, than if he sends them out to aid his blackmailers.

In other words, to make the lich tougher, play him as being intelligent. If he has an Int higher than 8 he won't agree to help the PCs under these circumstances.

I'd give a conciliatory VP for having the guts to blackmail a lich, and call it a day.

[Epic_Wizard]

Yes!

First of all, the Lich is immune to Touch of Idiocy, as all Undead are. Even if he wasn't immune it would only affect him for, what, 70 min?

If he can scry and see what a silly spell choice the wizard is going to teleport to him, he might as well refuse to help. Destroying the phylactery doesn't kill him, and he can make a new one. Then he can come kill them.

If he can't scry and see what the wizard is up to, then he can't confirm what the PCs are saying and has no reason to believe that they'll give him back the phylactery if he helps. They're already threatening to destroy it, after all. He should hedge his bets and refuse to help, figuring they'll break the phylactery either way - but knowing that he is safer if he keeps his undead close to guard him, than if he sends them out to aid his blackmailers.

In other words, to make the lich tougher, play him as being intelligent. If he has an Int higher than 8 he won't agree to help the PCs under these circumstances.

I'd give a conciliatory VP for having the guts to blackmail a lich, and call it a day.

I didn't think Lich's COULD make a new Phylactery though...

Either way it doesn't really hurt him to help the PC's. He's already pissed with the guys they want him to hurt and ignoring the nasty spell on the phylactery he's just better off if he ISN'T vulnerable like that.

[KillianHawkeye]

I didn't think Lich's COULD make a new Phylactery though...

The SRD is actually silent on the issue, but I know a lot of people play it that way because they suppose that the lich's life force is lost when the phylactery is destroyed. If that is the case, then despite the fact that the lich could still fashion a new one, it would be unable to "empower" it.

Personally, I'd say a lich could regain his life force (for the purposes of immediately placing it into a new phylactery) via the use of a wish or similar magical power.

[Shadowbound]

The phylactery, as I understand it, holds the Lich's soul if the body is destroyed, and regrows the body. I've always assumed that you had to destroy them both to permanently kill the Lich, though I'm unsure of how (or if) a Lich could replace it.

[Epic_Wizard]

The phylactery, as I understand it, holds the Lich's soul if the body is destroyed, and regrows the body. I've always assumed that you had to destroy them both to permanently kill the Lich, though I'm unsure of how (or if) a Lich could replace it.

All the stuff I've read implies that a Lich's phylactery is irreplaceable. For example in Age of Worms Dragotha goes nuts if you destroy her phylactery.