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afroakuma
2008-12-11, 05:39 PM
I'm working on a classed creature that has two natural weapons and all prerequisite feats for Whirlwind Attack.

My questions:

1) Because it has a melee class, can it make iterative attacks with its primary natural weapon?

2) If it has the full Two-Weapon Fighting tree, can it make iterative attacks with two identical natural weapons?

3) With Whirlwind Attack, can this creature make only one natural weapon attack against each foe?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 05:46 PM
1. No. Natural attacks never receive iterative attacks. EXCEPTION: The Rapidstrike feat chain from Dungeonomicon circumvent this.

2. No. Natural attacks cannot be TWFed. They can, however, be Multiattacked.

3. You make one attack with a primary natural weapon versus all creatures in reach. Improved Whirlwind Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedWhirlwindAttack), despite being an Epic feat, circumvents this, since it specifically states "iterative attacks" without qualifying them as "iterative attacks gained from a high base attack bonus".

afroakuma
2008-12-11, 05:51 PM
Thanks Fax; just one thing: I didn't see a mention of iterative attacks under d20srd's IWA description. It does state that each target can be hit only once. Am I missing a loophole here?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 05:54 PM
Improved Whirlwind Attack [Epic]
Prerequisites

Int 13, Dex 23, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.
Benefit

As a standard action, you can make one melee attack for every five points of your base attack bonus (including epic attack bonus, round fractions down).

You cannot attack any one opponent more than once as part of this action. These attacks (as well as all other attacks made until the start of your next turn) suffer a -4 penalty.

When using the Improved Whirlwind feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other spells or abilities (such as Cleave or the haste spell).

Since these attacks are made as part of a standard action, you can’t make a 5-foot step between any two of the attacks.
Normal

Without this feat, using the Whirlwind Attack feat requires a full attack action, and you can take a 5-foot step between any two of the attacks.

Bolded the relevant bit. Since it says "one melee attack for every five points of your base attack bonus" and not "your normal attack routine", "...including iterative attacks for a high base attack bonus", or something similar, it'll work with natural attacks. Sure, you only get to attack each opponent once, but you can use different weapons.

Cathaidan
2008-12-11, 05:54 PM
1. No. Natural attacks never receive iterative attacks. EXCEPTION: The Rapidstrike feat chain from Dungeonomicon circumvent this.

2. No. Natural attacks cannot be TWFed. They can, however, be Multiattacked.

3. You make one attack with a primary natural weapon versus all creatures in reach. Improved Whirlwind Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedWhirlwindAttack), despite being an Epic feat, circumvents this, since it specifically states "iterative attacks" without qualifying them as "iterative attacks gained from a high base attack bonus".

This is partially correct.

1. Some times. You actually can make iterative attacks. However, if you take the iterative attacks then you can only take them with the primary weapon. You may make no secondary, tertiary, etc. attacks in a round that you use iterative attacks from class levels.

2. See the rules for point 1. These would then obviously apply to any attack with an off hand, assuming you have all requisite feats.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 05:57 PM
This is partially correct.

1. Some times. You actually can make iterative attacks. However, if you take the iterative attacks then you can only take them with the primary weapon. You may make no secondary, tertiary, etc. attacks in a round that you use iterative attacks from class levels.

2. See the rules for point 1. These would then obviously apply to any attack with an off hand, assuming you have all requisite feats.

Lies.


Natural Weapons

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

So, "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons" means "no iterative attacks".

afroakuma
2008-12-11, 05:58 PM
Thanks, folks! I'm only asking because I'm working with the Nimblewright, whose natural weapons are rapiers... or maybe they're simply armed with rapiers. I'm not entirely certain. However, I think I can probably rule that as a construct with built-in weapons that employs them in a humanoid manner, they are for all intents and purposes non-natural.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 06:00 PM
Thanks, folks! I'm only asking because I'm working with the Nimblewright, whose natural weapons are rapiers... or maybe they're simply armed with rapiers. I'm not entirely certain. However, I think I can probably rule that as a construct with built-in weapons that employs them in a humanoid manner, they are for all intents and purposes non-natural.

Yeah. Just give it a special ability: "Swift Striking (Ex): a Nimblewright receives extra attacks with its rapiers for having a high base attack bonus, as if it were not using natural weapons."

afroakuma
2008-12-11, 06:01 PM
I'll go for that, I think. Probably easiest, and sensible too.

For those who are curious, this wicked epic beastie is joning the others in VUAV 5.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 06:23 PM
I'll go for that, I think. Probably easiest, and sensible too.

For those who are curious, this wicked epic beastie is joning the others in VUAV 5.

What is it, Paimon? *has been reading too much Tome of Magic recently*

afroakuma
2008-12-11, 07:09 PM
No, no, nothing so... ergh... how unfortunate.

No, it's the general of a benevolent genocidal construct army.