OOTS #615 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[TigerHunter]

*runs to read*

Edit: Well, darn it. Just when the good guys were starting to win.

Celia's casual reaction to Haley killing someone right in front of her, when she's just gotten done professing how much she hates violence, was... rather poorly handled. Just like pretty much everything relating to her rather odd brand of pacifism.

[Arbitrarity]

Whoa. Thousands of comics in one day? This will be one hell of an archive binge.
:smallwink:

I love the mintiness :) Nice to see Haley get a bow on par with Roy's weapon.

[Mr.Bookworm]

OOTS #5615 - The Discussion Thread

*cough*

Heh.

Neato.

[Limos]

My last breath, is also my mintiest.

Classic

[MSK]

Wait, where's she getting the arrows from?

[Trizap]

thread title has an extra 5.

"my last breath is also the mintiest"

"this isn't manga"

:smallbiggrin:

[Atomsized]

"This isn't manga" :smallbiggrin:
Or is it!?

[SteveMB]

Well, we know that Celia is less inhibited about zapping away when she's sufficiently ticked off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)....

[Gamerlord]

Darn,it guys! How many times do i need to tell you to not use the time traveler?!

Funny comic i should say,and i like haleys new hairstyle.

[Squirrel_Token]

W-w-w what??? I don't remember these guys at all!

[Aethir]

Outstanding choice for Haley. Finally an upgraded bow that actually has real kick to use on Bozzak.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Icy Burst +5? Now Haley is on par with Roy! That's always my problem DMing games... Seeding the good stuff along the way, and remembering ALL the different characters.

[Nevitan]

Your gonna have some angry Manga fans over that line.

Although the thousands of instant updates should cool them off.

Edit: Noo!
I just missed being in the typo title club :smallfrown:

[Istari]

Icy Burst hehe :smallbiggrin:

[NeonRonin]

Ooo, nice new bow for Haley...

Does it come in Five Flavor, too? :smallbiggrin:

[Szilard]

Wow, I was online when the comic went up.:smallbiggrin:

[SteveMB]

Does it come in Five Flavor, too? :smallbiggrin:

It comes in Plus Five flavor. :smallsmile:

[kreszantas]

Useless Celia strikes again :smallfurious:

[Ulti]

Just when things were looking up :smallfrown:.

[TigerHunter]

Edit: Noo!
I just missed being in the typo title club :smallfrown:
You can edit the title of your posts, you know.

[Islander]

I wonder how many uses that bow has. I like the effect. Go Haley!

[Ascension]

Celia's casual reaction to Haley killing someone right in front of her, when she's just gotten done professing how much she hates violence, was... rather poorly handled. Just like pretty much everything relating to her rather odd brand of pacifism.

I agree. Celia has been rather inconsistent since she joined up with Haley and Belkar.

But it's still quite a funny comic. "My last breath... is also my mintiest..."

[Midnight Lurker]

I wonder how many uses that bow has. I like the effect. Go Haley! AFAIR, it applies the icy burst effect to every shot, period. No charges, no limits.

[Limos]

"My last breath... is also my mintiest..."

That is the best line in the strip.

[ocdscale]

Looks like Celia is in need of some big damn heroes.
Nice to see Haley get such a big upgrade, is Belkar next? (Crystal's dagger)

[Samurai Jill]

New comic is up.

Ahhh, the classic frostmaiden-bowazon-build. That brings back memories. Stupid Duriel...

[Oslecamo]

Ok, there's something that really bugged me on this comic...

Haley's a greedy rogue who normally takes everything that isn't attached to the walls and then takes the walls themselves, even if death is iminent.


WHY IN THE 9 HELLS DOESN'T SHE JUST POCKET ALL THE BOWS, TROPHIES AND OTHER VALUABLE SHINIES INSTEAD OF LEAVING THEM BEHIND LIKE THAT?

What has hapaned to poor Haley?:smallfrown:

Surely her new aircut must have been really traumatic to her. What other explanation could there be for her to leave such a fortune on equipment behind?

[Saint Nil]

That bow is win.:smallbiggrin:
Also, bonus points for manga refrence!:smallbiggrin:

[Limos]

Looks like Celia is in need of some big damn heroes.
Nice to see Haley get such a big upgrade, is Belkar next? (Crystal's dagger)

Crystal's sword is only a +4. So it wouldn't be as great. Plus it's distinctive enough that I'm already tired of seeing it.

[littlequietguy]

LOVE IT for the following reasons
1. Haley listing off types of bows
2.updated while I was on the site
3.multiple jokes
4.The Nameless Npcs were remniscint of other nameless npcs(but in a good way)
5.refrence to manga
6. lastly this builds up a hope in me that Yor will actually become a significant character and not just a plot device.

:smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Inhuman Bot]

Was the title supposed to be a pun on life saver candies, as the bow is minty freash?

[Knolan]

Haley didn't take every bow there? Strange...

[SPoD]

I agree. Celia has been rather inconsistent since she joined up with Haley and Belkar.

I don't see it as inconsistency so much as growth. She used to bitch about Haley killing people, now she's starting to accept that as long as she herself doesn't kill people, her principles are intact. Besides, Haley just told her she was going to kill people, and then she does...why should she be shocked?

Or would you rather her stop Haley in the middle of a life-or-death struggle to lecture her? I'm sure THAT would make a fun comic!

[Kinneus]

I loved the 'icy burst' gag. I should put that in a Paranoia game, somehow...

[Dacia Brabant]

Well, we know that Celia is less inhibited about zapping away when she's sufficiently ticked off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)....

Beat me to it. Of course, she wasn't an established character back then so things can change, but it does detract from her conscientious objector status now.

One wonders what her preferred use of her lightning spell is.

[Optimystik]

She got the pink one after all! Though with the bonus I can see why.

[Ridureyu]

Well, will the foreshadowing of Celia's permanent demise in order to provide angst happen, or will that trope be kicked?

TUNE IN NEXT WEEK

SAME BAT TIME

SAME BAT CHANNEL

[Ruduen]

I'd assume the only reason Haley isn't taking everything is because it's rather hard to fight with the encumberance of numerous bows. Needless to say, it's safe to assume that she'll be going on a looting-fest after the fighting's done if she gets a chance. Of course, she might be needing to escape instead of confront now that the message has been sent and there's no huge need to stay, though the EXP and loot would be helpful and they might just go watch out for them when golem time comes around again.

[Winged One]

AFAIR, it applies the icy burst effect to every shot, period. No charges, no limits.

Well, except for the possibility of running out of arrows, but most people either have DMs that won't make them keep track of arrows or buy OVER NINE THOUSAND lots of them.

[Inhuman Bot]

Beat me to it. Of course, she wasn't an established character back then so things can change, but it does detract from her conscientious objector status now.

One wonders what her preferred use of her lightning spell is.

Breaking amulets, or powering stuff?

Yeah, that is a good point.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

For those grumbling why Haley didn't take ALL the bows, plus trophys, etc...

Malak: I think we made the merchant angry.
Conan: Are you surprised?
Malak: But we didn't steal everything he had!
Conan: We didn't have time.

The order of events is:

Kill the enemy
Loot the bodies, and then the surrounding area.

Do it in reverse order, and you will find yourself on the looted list and not the looter list.

[Lerky]

ah, and thus Doran_Liadon's old avatar has made a come back. And with a name no less!

My bet is Celia will sooner or later betray her principles and become a she-belkar! That last part is a lie but she's gonna betray them around this point my bet says.

[Nevitan]

You can edit the title of your posts, you know.

I know, but I'd still know I wasn't fast enough.

[TheSummoner]

Yay! Hank and Yor get their pot of gold!!!

Wouldnt it make more sence for an icy bow to be blue or something? Ah well, atleast its minty fresh!

[tcrudisi]

I don't know how to quote, but a couple of people mentioned that Haley didn't take all the bows.

I don't really see this as a betrayal of her character. She needed the best bow she could get her hands on. She got it. When she takes out all the serious threats, she can come back and pick up the rest. No sense in looting the dragon hoard before you kill the dragon.

[Bitzeralisis]

+5 Icy Burst!

[AceOfFools]

Is it just me or did Yor break Celia's wing?

[Lerky]

...has no one else noticed that the Fighter's name "Yor" Is "Roy" backwards?:smallconfused:

[Optimystik]

Is it just me or did Yor break Celia's wing?

Its just a bit rumpled/squashed, I don't think it's possible to "break" something that diaphanous.


...has no one else noticed that the Fighter's name "Yor" Is "Roy" backwards?:smallconfused:

Must be Rich's subtle way of lampooning 2-dimensional "HULK SMASH"-style fighters.

[Vercon]

Anybody else think the Hank let's Celia go when Belkar shows up and offers him the Guild if he helps kill Bozook? I'm just saying I don't see Belkar killing another halfling with a similar world view as him.

[Siriln]

Its just a bit rumpled/squashed, I don't think it's possible to "break" something that diaphanous.

It's very possible to rip something like that though.

[Shadic]

Damnit, Celia.

[Morgan Wick]

Okay, I'm a guy, but are we going to have fresh-breath jokes every time Haley fires her bow for the rest of the strip? That just sounds lame. Then again, I guess it can't be too much worse than the Dashing Swordsman...

Re: Celia cheering on Haley: Rich has a plan. He wouldn't forget about Celia's principles after referencing them in the same strip. Probably she figures Haley can't kill Bozzok that easily, so stopping him from killing her is good enough.

[chiasaur11]

So, how many guild members you think are left?

Five?

[Optimystik]

It's very possible to rip something like that though.

Oh indeed, but that would be tearing rather than breaking. It would also be hard for him to do while grappling her, unless inappropriate rubbing is involved.

[neoseph7]

He stole my joke! (http://plaza.ufl.edu/suirad/silverwind/Comics/011.html)::sigh:: If only that didn't require him reading my comic. I still feel mildly honored that I had a similar joke to the Giant though. Awesome comic all the same!

[Mastikator]

What the hell is wrong with Celia? Self defense against an evil theif's guild is against her principles, but using an evil defenseless ranger as bait is a-okay?

[Defiant]

"My last breath... is also my mintiest..."

Pure gold! :smallbiggrin:

[Aerysil]

"My last breath... is also my mintiest..."

Love the laugh out loud ones :)

[Ceric]

Darnit, Celia! :smallannoyed:

"Not again"? When was the first time? I must have a very bad memory...

[Defiant]

I have a theory into the fighter's name being "Yor", though it's probably just a coincidence. In a TBS game called "Galactic Civilizations", there are 5 races, and one of them is the Yor who are sentient machines that are slightly evil. This Yor character does strike me as very similar to the aforementioned race.

I don't know, it's something :smalltongue:

[Inhuman Bot]

Darnit, Celia! :smallannoyed:

"Not again"? When was the first time? I must have a very bad memory...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0576.html

[Optimystik]

He stole my joke! (http://plaza.ufl.edu/suirad/silverwind/Comics/011.html)::sigh::

Nope. (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq8)

(2nd from top)

[Lerky]

So, how many guild members you think are left?

Five?

I don't think you quite understand how large the Greysky City guild is.:smalltongue:

[Aerysil]

W-w-w what??? I don't remember these guys at all!

It was a small while back: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html

[Quorothorn]

Well, we've now officially "come down" from the string of unrelentingly awesome strips. I miss Belkar and the Cleric already. Still pretty nice, though.

Odd thing here: why did Pete have an Axiomatic bow of all things?

[shakes019]

So what feat does Haley have that acts as Seeking?

Good strip. Now bring on the Sexy Shoeless God of War.

[Morgan Wick]

Actually, let me revise my thoughts on Celia's pacifism.

Celia indicates to Haley that she didn't save her from Bozzok and Crystal because of her principles - but we know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)it was actually because she felt she couldn't be of any help.

And note that Roy has a better accounting of Celia's abilities in that strip than Haley does in this one. (Granted, Haley probably couldn't see the exact situation very well, but the operative parts are really just: there's Bozzok, there's Crystal, there's a prone Haley.)

You know what I'm starting to think? I'm starting to think that Celia was never actually a pacifist.

She never actually describes herself as one - when we're introduced to her "pacifism", it's from a Lawful perspective ("there are laws against murder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html)"), Roy's not there, and it's a result of a very similar situation - she's scared of facing 30 hobgoblins while it's no sweat for Haley and Belkar. In fact, it's Haley who brings up the idea that maybe Celia's a bit reticent about killing - and only after that does Celia really hint at being a pacifist, saying "Thirty? That's like an army!" as though she's more scared about how easy they will be to beat than the idea of beating them at all.

I think she may have made up the "I'm a pacifist" story on the spot ("Uh, yeah, I don't kill as a matter of principle, that's it") because she was ashamed that, even with her lightning attack, she was far less useful in combat than Haley or even the MoJ-slowed Belkar because she hadn't spent years gathering XP. And I think Roy knows this better than Haley because he's dated Celia and wasn't privy to Celia making up her story. And I think Rich has planned this all out from the start and when it comes out we'll all think "Rich, you magnificent bastard!" and "Morgan, you clairvoyant fool!"

[neoseph7]

Nope. (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq8)

(2nd from top)

There isn't a snowball's chance in the nine hells that he even knows my comic exists. But I can still dream...

[Mauve Shirt]

Urgh, Celia, you're so frustrating!
Absolutely love the minty fresh death. :smallbiggrin:

[Raging Gene Ray]

Is it just me or did Yor break Celia's wing?

No, he was hungry and took a big ol' bite out of it. Celia doesn't notice because she doesn't have any sensation in those wings. They're like hair. She'll go insane once she notices what he's done and Yor will be as dead as Celia's principals principles.

[Assassin89]

Looks like the Giant is making fun of the calling your attacks trope again, which is common in magna and anime. As for Celia, if she has enough motivation to attack she will, but will weaken them or distract them.

[Quorothorn]

No, he was hungry and took a big ol' bite out of it. Celia doesn't notice because she doesn't have any sensation in those wings. They're like hair. She'll go insane once she notices what he's done and Yor will be as dead as Celia's principals.

When did Celia's principals die? Do her schools have plans to replace them?

...Was it evil-hyena-possessed students?

[The_Weirdo]

It occurred to me that Celia WILL kill these guys.

At which point she'll either have a mental breakdown or reveal she wasn't a pacifist.

[slurpz]

I figured that there was a new comic up. Every time a new strip is up, the forum lags to hell.

[ericgrau]

So what feat does Haley have that acts as Seeking?


Improved precise shot, which requires Dex 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and base attack bonus +11, which means she's at least level 15, Crystal is too and Bozzak is at least level 19. Truly this is a historical event for the class and geekery thread.

Blind fight is also possible, but it seems much less fitting.

EDIT: Dang, someone at class and level geekery beat me by an hour and 20 minutes; just 10 minutes after the comic was posted.

[snoopy13a]

I have a theory into the fighter's name being "Yor", though it's probably just a coincidence. In a TBS game called "Galactic Civilizations", there are 5 races, and one of them is the Yor who are sentient machines that are slightly evil. This Yor character does strike me as very similar to the aforementioned race.

I don't know, it's something :smalltongue:

My theory is that "Yor" was named as a pseudo-opposite of "Roy". Note that Yor is a below average intelligence fighter while Roy has above average intelligence.

[MammonAzrael]

The most curious thing to me is why Celia wasn't flying up near the ceiling. My assumption is that, since they're in a house, the ceiling isn't high enough to make an appreciable difference (at least in this room).

And I'm guessing that Hank will wait for Bozzok and Haley to finish their fight, then side with the winner. And assuming Haley wins, she'll loot some off Pete's stuff, but most of it will go to the guild, perhaps as a fee for letting her leave the city alive.

[silvadel]

An overhyped sense of pacifism -- $20

A severed hair braid -- one sharp sword

Seeing Celia go BERZERK -- priceless

[Karui_Kage]

In regards to the seeking bow, which helps attack targets with concealment, the feat that Haley likely has is Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot).

It's nice that Rich throws us a bone every once in a while as to which character has what feats.

[Assassin89]

An over hyped sense of pacifism -- 20 GP

A severed hair braid -- one sharp sword

Seeing Celia go BERSERK -- priceless

There are some things money can't buy, for everything else there's plot devices.

I do not expect Celia to go berserk unless the situation calls for it.

[mcdudette]

Hello everybody. I recently read all the OOTS (after my boyfriend recommended it - I bought him an OOTS mug in March), and I love it.

Haley will go back for the loot. She has been known to risk her life for loot - #245 - she tried to go into a building full of explosives for gold. She'll get it somehow.

[DBear]

What is an axiomatic bow?:smalleek:

[Nevitan]

What is an axiomatic bow?:smalleek:

http://www.cufley.org/dnd/cgi-bin/srd.pl?table=item&id=227
I didn't know either.

[satorian]

But why the grapple attack and not weapon attack? The three of them could have puddinged her if they had wanted to. Do they think she's a sorcerer and so are trying to stop her via grapple?

[teratorn]

What is an axiomatic bow?:smalleek:

The SRD is your friend :smalltongue:


An axiomatic weapon is lawfully aligned and infused with the power of law. It makes the weapon law-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of chaotic alignment. It bestows one negative level on any chaotic creature attempting to wield it.

[Starscream]

Finally Haley gets a weapon worthy of her prowess! Icy burst is sweet! The life saver jokes are so bad they're awesome.

[zach12376]

What does an Icy Burst weapon do?

[Nevitan]

But why the grapple attack and not weapon attack? The three of them could have puddinged her if they had wanted to. Do they think she's a sorcerer and so are trying to stop her via grapple?

That's exactly it, Celia has spell like abilities equivalent to a sorceress and Yor, being a fighter, probably wouldn't be able to dodge the spells very well.

[Nevitan]

What does an Icy Burst weapon do?

The SRD is your friend :smalltongue:


An icy burst weapon functions as a frost weapon that also explodes with frost upon striking a successful critical hit. The frost does not harm the wielder. In addition to the extra damage from the frost ability, an icy burst weapon deals an extra 1d10 points of cold damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, add an extra 2d10 points of cold damage instead, and if the multiplier is x4, add an extra 3d10 points. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the cold energy upon their ammunition.

Even if the frost ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra cold damage on a successful critical hit.

[Assassin89]

Haley's bow can inflict 1d6 of cold damage meaning that Bozzok is screwed

[zach12376]

Thanks a :smallsmile:ot

[Renegade Paladin]

And pacifism loses again.

[Raging Gene Ray]

It occurred to me that Celia WILL kill these guys.

At which point she'll either have a mental breakdown or reveal she wasn't a pacifist.

Or Hank and Yor use the hostage situation to their advantage by saying:

Drop your weapons or she dies!
:haley: Okay...She's a moron but she's still my friend. Belkar, we have to surrender.
:belkar: O..kay. That's what...team...players...do (DAMN IT! Stupid Sexy Shojo!)

I'm still expecting them to search Celia for that pot of gold.

[Quorothorn]

Or Hank and Yor use the hostage situation to their advantage by saying:

Drop your weapons or she dies!
:haley: Okay...She's a moron but she's still my friend. Belkar, we have to surrender.
:belkar: O..kay. That's what...team...players...do (DAMN IT! Stupid Sexy Shojo!)

I'm still expecting them to search Celia for that pot of gold.

Me too. A pot of gold just...has this aura about it that gold not in a pot lacks, you know what I mean?


P.S. Yes, appease the insane pedants...it strengthens ussssss... Though the term my kind prefers is "Perfectionist", "insane pedant" will do just fine, thank you.

[Kilarny]

:smallsmile:
I have never claimed to have a particular favorite strip, but the line "My last breath...is also my mintiest..." has done it. #615 is my favorite OOTS strip.

[the_tick_rules]

Wow, he had a lot of bows. Guess he didn't do standard adventuring and sell the ones he didn't want to buy or pay someone to enchant one he did.

[Warlord JK]

Amazing. My favorite buff to a weapon with my favorite gum flavor :smallbiggrin:.

On a side not, isn't it the arrows that apply the bonus not the bow?

[SPoD]

On a side not, isn't it the arrows that apply the bonus not the bow?

The bow applies the bonus to the arrows. Link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#icyBurst)

[SSGW Priest]

Anybody else think the Hank let's Celia go when Belkar shows up and offers him the Guild if he helps kill Bozook? I'm just saying I don't see Belkar killing another halfling with a similar world view as him.

Hank's existence is an affront to :belkar: as well as competition. Hank hats all around.

Speaking of hats, if Celia's code of ethics allows Haley to get taken down again then Belkar should make yet one more hat.:smallfurious:

[Dark Wolf]

I had to go back to find this manga reference. First time I thought it was magic, seeing as how here you just name the magic spell you want to cast. Now I hink about it I guess it comes from manga then, doh.

Or you can just shout Sonic!

Also a bit of a Red Dwarf reference.

"Excuse me. Do you mind if I just distract you for a second?"
"What?"

[SSGW Priest]

But why the grapple attack and not weapon attack? The three of them could have puddinged her if they had wanted to. Do they think she's a sorcerer and so are trying to stop her via grapple?

I think Hank's question about distraction was a prelude to a sneak attack, but Yor rudely interrupted with the grapple.

[SirEdward]

One wonders what her preferred use of her lightning spell is.
It's called "Rule 36" - and no, it's best if you don't ask.

I don't really see this as a betrayal of her character. She needed the best bow she could get her hands on. She got it. When she takes out all the serious threats, she can come back and pick up the rest. No sense in looting the dragon hoard before you kill the dragon.
*note to Bilbo...*

[OOTS_Echoes]

Giant, you really do have the best sound effects.

Twang!
Burst!

[reorith]

"this isn't manga"
i lol'd hardcore at that line.

[OneFamiliarFace]

Foreshadowing! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0319.html)

Hey! Check this out. I wonder if Haley's new haircut is symbolic of a quick wrap up of sideplots and moving forward with the dramatic main line?

[Phexar]

And I'm guessing that Hank will wait for Bozzok and Haley to finish their fight, then side with the winner. And assuming Haley wins, she'll loot some off Pete's stuff, but most of it will go to the guild, perhaps as a fee for letting her leave the city alive.

Yeah, I was thinking that. Holding onto Celia for the time being could be a form of life insurance for Hank and co. Hank could interfere, but why not let Haley take out Bozzok? That's one way for him to get a promotion. :smallamused:

So, the pink bow is an Icy Burst +5, nice. :smallsmile: Why would Pete have had an axiomatic bow though? I guess he's not the Chaotic type. I never noticed before that "Yor" is "Roy" backwards either. *laughs* Celia really needs to keep more of an eye out though; her pacifism could possibly get her killed. The "let go and we could try it again" quip is a nice touch though. :smallsmile:

[tmacdevitt]

Well all I want for Xmas is more OOTS! Seirously, Rich, thank you for providing me and my family some wonderful entertainment throughout the year.

PS. my son loves your comics. His name is Matt and he's really looking forward to your next book.:smallsmile:

[Lowkey]

Why would Pete have had an axiomatic bow though? I guess he's not the Chaotic type.He might be Chaotic, but be good enough that the damage bonus outweighs the chance to miss brought upon by the level loss. He was a sniper, not an adventurer. When he met the enemy it was on his terms, not theirs.

[silvadel]

He might be Chaotic, but be good enough that the damage bonus outweighs the chance to miss brought upon by the level loss. He was a sniper, not an adventurer. When he met the enemy it was on his terms, not theirs.

Trophy off a dead opponent most likely.

[Essex]

An icy burst weapon functions as a frost weapon that also explodes with frost upon striking a successful critical hit ... Even if the frost ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra cold damage on a successful critical hit.

The problem is that Haley never verbally activated the weapon, but still seems to be doing extra cold damage with her arrows.

[Dark Wolf]

Maybe she did

n-Ice.

[Nevitan]

The problem is that Haley never verbally activated the weapon, but still seems to be doing extra cold damage with her arrows.

Well, it doesn't specify that it needs verbal activation, the bow already resonates ice magic during the panel when they walk out of the room.
And lets not rule out the possibility of an off panel activation.

[David Argall]

I agree. Celia has been rather inconsistent since she joined up with Haley and Belkar.

Celia's position is not easy to maintain, but it is not inconsistent. She denies herself the right to use violence even in self defense, but accepts it is necessary that somebody do so. She wants Belkar punished for killing the gnome and she wants these attacking rogues punished for their crimes. Encouraging Haley to impose that justice is no inconsistency on her part.



But why the grapple attack and not weapon attack? The three of them could have puddinged her if they had wanted to.
You have a cute lass and you don't want to grapple her?



Haley didn't take every bow there? Strange...
Note that Haley was barely to the door before she had to start shooting. There just wasn't time to do any proper looting. Maybe later.

However, on the stats, Haley is currently screwed. While Bozzak does not get flank or sneak damage without some minions, he can still put Haley down with some Power Attacking [and we know he can hit her already].

Minor point: The trophies are dated 1160-1165, which means Haley didn't cause the silver finish. However, the dates seem a tad early. Crystal didn't join the Guild until 1177, so there is a major gap before she could have blinded Pete. Possibly Pete kept later trophies in a locker, or got bored with collecting them, but it might be better to redate them a decade later.



Hank and Yor use the hostage situation to their advantage by saying:

Drop your weapons or she dies!
Okay...She's a moron but she's still my friend. Belkar, we have to surrender.
O..kay. That's what...team...players...do (DAMN IT! Stupid Sexy Shojo!)

This is classified under stupid good. Neither of the two will fall for this. Surrender here just gets you killed slower. You do Celia no favor by falling for this. Now if Belkar and Haley were to win somehow, this can keep them at bay so Hank can work out a deal of some sort. But unless the good side has overwhelming advantage, this tactic is to be ignored. In most cases, the bad guys will save her as an ace in the hole. When not, there was little hope of saving her anyway.



...has no one else noticed that the Fighter's name "Yor" Is "Roy" backwards?
It was noticed the previous comic Yor appeared in.

[the-icon]

"My last breath . . . is also my mintiest." Genius. :smalltongue:

[Haruki-kun]

"This isn't Manga!"

I should totally try to incorporate that phrase into daily speech.

[The Minx]

So a summary of Haley's damage dealing potential with that thing:

I'm going to assume a longbow, since it looks to be about the same size as her old bow, and that was said to be a longbow (even though it was not as tall as Haley herself, but meh).

Normal hit:
Longbow damage: 1d8.
Frost damage: +1d6.
Enhancement damage: +5.

TOTAL: minimum 7 hp, average 13 hp, maximum 19 hp.

Critical hit:
Longbow damage: 1d8 x3.
Frost damage: +1d6.
Enhancement damage: +5.
Icy Burst damage: +2d10 (since bows have a x3 multiplier).

TOTAL: minimum 9 hp, average 33 hp, maximum 55 hp (!)


What this means in practice, Rogues have 1d6 hit points per level, 6 for the first level. So:

Level 1: 6 hp.
Level 2: 9 hp.
Level 3: 13 hp. Haley one-shots 3rd level Rogues on an average hit.
Level 4: 16 hp.
Level 5: 20 hp.
Level 6: 23 hp.
Level 7: 27 hp.
Level 8: 30 hp. Haley one-shots 8th level Rogues on an "average" critical hit.
Level 9: 34 hp.

This assumes no Con bonus, which is a bit far-fetched in particular for higher level rogues; still even if they have Con 15 she's still one-shot killing second level rogues (13 hit points) on an "average" regular hit and 5th level rogues (30 hit points) on an "average" critical hit. Assuming I did not screw up the math at some point.

EDIT: note that these assume single shots, Haley happens to have the Manyshot feat.

[Zienth]

So what feat does Haley have that acts as Seeking?


I think it's Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot)

Zienth

[SPoD]

Minor point: The trophies are dated 1160-1165, which means Haley didn't cause the silver finish. However, the dates seem a tad early. Crystal didn't join the Guild until 1177, so there is a major gap before she could have blinded Pete. Possibly Pete kept later trophies in a locker, or got bored with collecting them, but it might be better to redate them a decade later.

1.) Crystal wasn't necessarily the one to blind him the first time. We only know she was the one to blind him after he got his eyes regenerated.

2.) We don't know that Pete was still winning trophies up until the point of being blinded. Those may represent his best years, but he may have hit middle age (with attendant Dex loss) long before the blinding incident.

[Randugulf]

I love the My last breath... is also my mintiest... line but what does manga mean?

[RMS Oceanic]

Manga is a catch-all name for Japanese comic books and graphic novels. Something that happens a lot in said medium in fight scenes is that the combatants often yell out their attacks.

[Lunaya]

Manga, as in Japanese style comics. Kinda surprised but not really that Celia wouldn't help Haley fight. I wonder..what would Roy say?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Technically speaking, isn't the yelling out of attacks more an anime thing, not a manga thing?

This was amazing. I totally want the mint bow now.

[jacenokelly]

I don't really see a problem with Celia blasting Thog and whats his beardy face. She specifically says she does not want to risk KILLING people. her lightning is probably (though I'm not a D&D expert, just judging from the picture) an area of effect spell. Sure, she might have been able to aim just at the high level ones, but what if one of the many mooks running around wanders into the spell area? And thog + beardy were probably high level enough that she didnt need to worry.

Also, AoE + wounded comrade surrounded by targets =/= anything good.

Just some thoughts

[UltraDude]

Technically speaking, isn't the yelling out of attacks more an anime thing, not a manga thing?

This was amazing. I totally want the mint bow now.

Okay, writing the attack names IN BIG LETTERS WITH EXCLAMATION MARKS IN SPEECH BUBBLES!!!!! ARGGGHHHHH!!!!! *hair turns blond, world blows up*

Mr. Technical.

Now I'm off to purchase a cherry flavored bow...

[Ramien]

Hostage taking is a very bad idea. The old Belkar would have just killed/removed the hostage first, then proceeded to slice and dice his way through the shocked thieves.

Now, though...

I imagine we're going to hear someone tell Celia to duck right before her captor gets an ice arrow and/or dagger to the eyes. V could show up, but it's a remote possibility, since Celia and Haley haven't been out of the scry-proof room for very long, and I don't think V's actually grabbed a Teleport spell yet.

[holywhippet]

Two thoughts-

a) I wonder if Hank and Belkar have any kind of history together. They are both evil aligned halflings.

b) Can Celia plane shift at will to return home? She might be able to solve her capture by just shifting back home..

[Nevitan]

Two thoughts-

a) I wonder if Hank and Belkar have any kind of history together. They are both evil aligned halflings.


So?
That would be like saying Thog and Therkla could have history just because they are both evil aligned half orcs.
Sure its a similarity and might come up if they met, but it certainly doesn't imply back story.

[Obscurejones]

Celia is a useless nuisance. She has done nothing in the last arc but repeatedly be annoying or put herself in needless danger because she doesn't understand how the real world works. While that makes her an effective college student it makes her an annoying character.

Also Minty Bow is cool.

[Martok]

"My last breath... is also my mintiest..."

Easily my favorite line in this comic! :smallbiggrin:

[Terbovus]

NARG! Blinkin' Celia. :smallmad:

More Belkar goodness please! :smalltongue:

[The Minx]

Celia is a useless nuisance. She has done nothing in the last arc but repeatedly be annoying or put herself in needless danger because she doesn't understand how the real world works. While that makes her an effective college student it makes her an annoying character.

Also Minty Bow is cool.

The "real world" being defined as one where people fight for their lives on a daily basis. :smallwink: She is not accustomed to fighting for a living, like most people in the real "real world". She may even have cultural objections to killing, being from a race which cannot be raised from the dead.

Though I agree that she's still getting to be annoying. A classic damsel in distress, except one with X levels of sorcerer spells, including lightning bolt. I suspect she'll have to get through some maturity related character growth pretty soon.

[Cracklord]

I don't get why people seem to object to Celia not killing people, but are fine with Belkars wholesale slaughter of innocents (at least, relative innocents. They're sure as hell innocent next to him.) It's a comic for godssake.
I mean, Celia's classic 'Damsel in distress thats got everyone so annoyed is just a long running joke on how callous adventurers are on everyones lives.
I mean, Belkar was a one joke character for almost 500 strips. Give her a chance to develop.

[Nevitan]

I don't get why people seem to object to Celia not killing people, but are fine with Belkars wholesale slaughter of innocents (at least, relative innocents. They're sure as hell innocent next to him.) It's a comic for godssake.
I mean, Celia's classic 'Damsel in distress thats got everyone so annoyed is just a long running joke on how callous adventurers are on everyones lives.
I mean, Belkar was a one joke character for almost 500 strips. Give her a chance to develop.

A chance to develop?
She's been around for 562 strips! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't get why people seem to object to Celia not killing people, but are fine with Belkars wholesale slaughter of innocents (at least, relative innocents. They're sure as hell innocent next to him.) It's a comic for godssake.

Personally I can understand that. It is consistent. I can't get those who complain that Celia isn't killing people and yet objects to Belkar's violence.

[John Campbell]

Well, we've now officially "come down" from the string of unrelentingly awesome strips. I miss Belkar and the Cleric already. Still pretty nice, though.

Odd thing here: why did Pete have an Axiomatic bow of all things?

I wondered that too, since it's pretty clear from the fact that I've lost track of the multiplier on his multi-cross that he's Chaotic. A couple of possibilities occurred to me, though: 1) Trophy. He took it off some Lawful sucker that he sniped. 2) He went up against other Chaotics often enough that he considered the +2d6 damage worth the negative level.

It also occurs to me that going against a thieves' guild, Haley might find that a worthwhile tradeoff, too.

Though I probably would've taken the icy burst, too. (Actually, my current Rogue PC, in Haley's situation, would've just pulled one of his many, many backup weapons and gone to town on Crystal. If she's attacking my weapons while I'm attacking her, I bet she runs out of hit points before I run out of concealed weapons. Especially since one of them is adamantine.)


I don't think V's actually grabbed a Teleport spell yet.
V cannot learn teleport. V gave up access to the entire Conjuration school, which includes teleport and its relatives, to become a specialist wizard (evoker, I think). V states this explicitly somewhere around the Cliffport side-trip, though I'm too lazy right now to hunt down the exact strip.

[David Argall]

1.) Crystal wasn't necessarily the one to blind him the first time. We only know she was the one to blind him after he got his eyes regenerated.
True. However, we would assume he would have gotten his eyes repaired fairly quickly. Maybe a year or two to let the heat die down and let Bozzak to find other things to take care of, and to get the funds together.
Also Bozzak seems to have taken control some time after 1177. We know Haley's dad was around until then, and in 609, Bozzak tells us that he arranged for dad to go West shortly after Bozzak became the new boss. So if Bozzak ordered his blinding, it probably happened after 1177. [Not certain. Bozzak may have discovered Pete selling secrets and got a promotion years earlier for rating him out. But the obvious reading is that Pete got blinded about 1178 and reblinded about 1180. and in 1182, Haley left town with knowledge of Old Blind Pete.]



2.) We don't know that Pete was still winning trophies up until the point of being blinded. Those may represent his best years, but he may have hit middle age (with attendant Dex loss) long before the blinding incident.
Now that makes some sense. He is old blind Pete, so his best years could easily be quite awhile ago. Maybe...
Pete hits middle age about 1165, and starts losing the contests. He is no longer able to live in the style he would like and starts selling out the guild a few years later. Bozzak discovers this about 1175+ and blinds Pete just before or after he gets the top job. [He also arranges for Haley's pop to be lured into a trap about 1178-9.] A couple of years later, Pete is reblinded by Crystal. Old Blind Pete would not become old until 1183, after Haley had left town, but Haley can do the math and Crystal and any friends may well have given Pete some permanent damage just to make sure he got the message, and for fun. So she may have assumed he was distinctly older than he was.

[The Minx]

Personally I can understand that. It is consistent. I can't get those who complain that Celia isn't killing people and yet objects to Belkar's violence.

It has to do with the fundamental difference between the wholesale and pointless slaughter for his own amusement which Belkar is guilty of, and fighting to save the lives of her friends and companions like that Celia refuses to do. You can also be guilty through inaction, after all, and Haley is supposed to be her friend.

[Hamilkar]

omg rofl lol

... Well I mean this was very funny... reminds me of mentos the freshmaker... only you die too.

Ah and the thief guild will soon cease to exist!

[Natural20]

Man, what a badass bow. Deliciously deadly arrows? Sweet.

[icantdrawrocks]

Actually, let me revise my thoughts on Celia's pacifism.

Celia indicates to Haley that she didn't save her from Bozzok and Crystal because of her principles - but we know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)it was actually because she felt she couldn't be of any help.

And note that Roy has a better accounting of Celia's abilities in that strip than Haley does in this one. (Granted, Haley probably couldn't see the exact situation very well, but the operative parts are really just: there's Bozzok, there's Crystal, there's a prone Haley.)

You know what I'm starting to think? I'm starting to think that Celia was never actually a pacifist.

She never actually describes herself as one - when we're introduced to her "pacifism", it's from a Lawful perspective ("there are laws against murder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html)"), Roy's not there, and it's a result of a very similar situation - she's scared of facing 30 hobgoblins while it's no sweat for Haley and Belkar. In fact, it's Haley who brings up the idea that maybe Celia's a bit reticent about killing - and only after that does Celia really hint at being a pacifist, saying "Thirty? That's like an army!" as though she's more scared about how easy they will be to beat than the idea of beating them at all.

I think she may have made up the "I'm a pacifist" story on the spot ("Uh, yeah, I don't kill as a matter of principle, that's it") because she was ashamed that, even with her lightning attack, she was far less useful in combat than Haley or even the MoJ-slowed Belkar because she hadn't spent years gathering XP. And I think Roy knows this better than Haley because he's dated Celia and wasn't privy to Celia making up her story. And I think Rich has planned this all out from the start and when it comes out we'll all think "Rich, you magnificent bastard!" and "Morgan, you clairvoyant fool!"

Well, #532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) implies that Celia is vegan, which also fits into the pacifist stereotype.

As for the comic, while Celia's refusal to fight is annoying, it is a story. How interesting would it be if the Order just blasted through everything without breaking a sweat? Not very. Though I suppose Belkar fans will say otherwise...

Not to mention Celia's principles are very much reflective of real life beliefs. Most people don't kill for a living.

[paddyfool]

What the hell is wrong with Celia? Self defense against an evil theif's guild is against her principles, but using an evil defenseless ranger as bait is a-okay?

It's the Roy's GF syndrome. Roy seems to have so far been only attracted to women who fulfill negative alignment stereotypes. So far, these have been Lawful Stupid, and Stupid Good. Luckily, Stupid Evil, Chaotic Stupid, and Neutral Stupid all seem to be unlike him, so with any luck this will have run its course with Celia.

On the variable acceptability of lightning at different stages in the comic - well, a person's philosophies can change. Also, it could all depend at what level Celia took Vow of Nonviolence/Vow of Peace.

EDIT: What bothers me most about this comic is how a blind old guy could have kept such valuable loot stashed safely in his house in Greysky City all this time... maybe there's a curse or something.

[mistformsquirrl]

Your gonna have some angry Manga fans over that line.

I dun see why <@.@> I'm a huge anime/manga geek and thought it was *hilarious* lol

"CHARGING GRAPPLE ATTACK!!"

Its especially funny given people yelling out spells/sneak attacks <,< So its really just poor fighters who don't get to shout at people!

*edit*

@Paddyfool - <. .> This is why she should have taken Vow of OMGYOUSTABBEDOUTMYLUNGS. Although perhaps less powerful at high levels, it is nontheless effective against anything vulnerable to critical hits <. .>

[Athaniar]

Obviously, Yor is Roy's unknown evil twin brother. Before long, Nale will hire him into the Linear Guild along with Yelah, Rakleb, Nokrud, and Suivusraav.

[Drascin]

Odd thing here: why did Pete have an Axiomatic bow of all things?

If he had many disputes with the Thieves Guild, that only makes sense. Chances are like 80% of the guild is some variety of Chaotic.

[Yuki Akuma]

Technically speaking, isn't the yelling out of attacks more an anime thing, not a manga thing?

No.

No it is not.

In manga, it's very hard to show exactly how super-special attacks work unless you devote a lot of frames to them. Therefore, they usually just portray the strike and have the character yell out the name of the technique so the reader knows what the hell is going on.

When manga are adapted as anime, they keep the attack calls. And now it's so ingrained in anime in general that even original series, that don't have the same limitations as manga, still do it.

[ilcane87]

Celia is a goner, it was obvious since the very moment she stated that she couldn't be resurrected.

[Amarsir]

Here's another things: Now I know the sigils could only be activated by Good individuals, and thus were effectively protecting themselves. But Celia identified herself as guarding the sigil. Hard to see how she got that job. That girl is too pacifist to guard your seat at the movie theatre.

[Kish]

Odd thing here: why did Pete have an Axiomatic bow of all things?
He was probably Lawful Evil.

[Dez]

Nope. (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq8)

(2nd from top)


Actually, Ive allways thought that statement by Rich is both rude and pompous. "Inspriation" is no cuss-word and I dont think even daVinci could have done without it. There really is no reason for an artist to comment on such things in either direction unless there is some moronic american law of "partial copyright", or the likes, that forces you to state something like this.

Btw, anyone know the pun behind "Axiomatic"?

[Harperfan7]

Wait, where's she getting the arrows from?

Where does she put her bags of holding? You don't see everything the characters are carrying. (V's familiar?)

[pendell]

Lawful? Enticing your best friend into breaking the law, then turning him over to the Thieves' Guild, is lawful behavior?

Belonging to the Thieves' Guild in the first place (which he did, he was 'one of their best snipers') is lawful?

Perhaps he fought an archery duel with a lawful-aligned archer and took his bow as a memento.

Other matters ...

"Minty fresh" is funny. I liked it, especially the character whose 'last breath is also his mintiest'.

I also like the twist. It's amazing how this strip goes up and down. For one minute, the OOTS was on top of things, with Belkar fighting Crystal and Haley armed with a +5 bow taking on Bozzak. Then Celia gets herself taken hostage.

It'll be interested to see how this works out.


Celia can't or won't use destructive spells, but there may be others if she took the
appropriate feat -- "Charm Person" would do well right about now.

For that matter, "Charm Person" would be a great tool in the toolbox for a budding lawyer who's also a pacifist.

But even if she can't magic her way out of this, she still has her mouth -- which on a
lawyer, is a dangerous weapon indeed. She's shown a gift for fast talk before ...



Hmm .. Haley shot 3 arrows at Bozzak and hit once. Bozzak must have quite a reasonable AC even without his shield.

Hmm ...


It doesn't seem likely that Haley can kill Bozzak before he closes to melee range. When
he does, it's very probable he will one-shot her.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Harperfan7]

Actually, Ive allways thought that statement by Rich is both rude and pompous. "Inspriation" is no cuss-word and I dont think even daVinci could have done without it. There really is no reason for an artist to comment on such things in either direction unless there is some moronic american law of "partial copyright" that forces you to state something like this.

Btw, anyone know the pun behind "Axiomatc"?

An axiomatic weapon is a lawful weapon that does extra damage to choatic creatures and penalizes any chaotic person using it. Haley is CG.

(I didn't realize my last post was so outdated)

[Xiander]

Celia is a useless nuisance. She has done nothing in the last arc but repeatedly be annoying or put herself in needless danger because she doesn't understand how the real world works. While that makes her an effective college student it makes her an annoying character.


She did save Haleys life.

[HOLEkevin]

I am pretty sure that if someone walked up behind me in a thieves guild and asked if I was "sufficiently distracted," I could come up with a better answer than "Huh?"

But then Celia is an NPC.

[Taekwondodo]

mmmmmmm... minty fresh...:smallbiggrin:

[Dez]

An axiomatic weapon is a lawful weapon that does extra damage to choatic creatures and penalizes any chaotic person using it. Haley is CG.

Aha! Many thanks!

[factotum]

Here's another things: Now I know the sigils could only be activated by Good individuals, and thus were effectively protecting themselves. But Celia identified herself as guarding the sigil. Hard to see how she got that job. That girl is too pacifist to guard your seat at the movie theatre.

Look at how well the other sigil guardians did--the Earth one died to one hit of Thog's axe, after all. They were never intended as actual guardians as such; their only job was to tell the adventurers what to do when they got to the sigils. (Hell, a Magic Mouth would have done the job just as well, but I guess Dorukan preferred the personal touch :smallamused:).

[SAMonkey]

I've been reading this comic awhile now and I don't intend to be overly insulting when I say this but,
did anyone notice that Haley has the same haircut as Hank the Halfling now?
:smallbiggrin:

[MuseUnchained]

Well, except for the possibility of running out of arrows, but most people either have DMs that won't make them keep track of arrows or buy OVER NINE THOUSAND lots of them.

Or in the case of one of my DM's

Me: I have enough arrows for, hmm, another five rounds.
DM: You DID take the arrows the archers you dropped don't have any need for, right?
Me: ...ooh, no, how many?

I should have known there was much more to come that side of shopping with loot when he pretty much replenished my stock >>

[spectralphoenix]

Actually, Ive allways thought that statement by Rich is both rude and pompous. "Inspriation" is no cuss-word and I dont think even daVinci could have done without it. There really is no reason for an artist to comment on such things in either direction unless there is some moronic american law of "partial copyright", or the likes, that forces you to state something like this.

Yes, it's the Not Wanting to Put Up with Annoying People on the Internet Making Lots of Annoying Posts Claiming Credit Every Time Something Happens in the Comic with Passing Similarity to Something They Posted Once Act. Subsection 4, paragraph 2.

[Lissibith]

Seconding spectralphoenix.

As to the comic, I sense (or at least hope for) a change in moral stance in 3... 2... 1...

[SAMonkey]

Yes, it's the Not Wanting to Put Up with Annoying People on the Internet Making Lots of Annoying Posts Claiming Credit Every Time Something Happens in the Comic with Passing Similarity to Something They Posted Once Act. Subsection 4, paragraph 2.

Quoted for truth

[Niley]

Heh... 'My last breath is also my mintiest.' OMG, that's a line I'll NEVER forget!

[Sir_Norbert]

I am really beginning to dislike Celia now :( Let's hope things are about to turn around!

[KilltheToy]

I laughed harder than usual at the "refreshing blast of winter" :smallwink:. And now I've got a guy going "AAHH! My puncture wounds are minty and refreshing!" in my head :smallbiggrin:.

In other news, Celia would appear to be totally screwed. If Roy's watching this right now, I'm guessing he's feeling ashamed to call her his girlfriend right now.

[Robert Paulson]

Heh... 'My last breath is also my mintiest.' OMG, that's a line I'll NEVER forget!

+1

Hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Robert Paulson]

I am really beginning to dislike Celia now :( Let's hope things are about to turn around!

I think she's about to have to ... take a level in badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TookALevelInBadass).

[TheRagi]

What's the big mystery behind Brainy Pete's axiomatic bow? Didn't you people ever play a game (tabletop or computer) where you collected magical weapons and or items? :smallconfused:

[Linkavitch]

Uh, oh. Looks like Belkar needs to hurry up and defeat Crystal so he can come save the girls' butts again. Celia's wing looked damaged, hope it's not too bad.

[Belkar Rocks]

My last breath, is also my mintiest.

ClassicI must quote this for incredible truthness, because that is totally what I was going to say. I laughed my ass off. F***ing great, giant! :smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile:

[Blanth]

1. Sabine (remember Sabine?) likes to use what? Fire? We all know that with fire and ice, a dream can't come true...

Err. Sorry.

2. Perhaps nobody ever told Blind Eyed Pete that it was an axiomatic bow hence, the one silver trophy?

[Yoyoyo]

Nothing like last words being minty fresh. :smallbiggrin:

Current events aside, any chance Hank pulls a double cross on Bozzok after Haley weakens him? Like here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html

And does Hank know that Belkar's running around, or is he attributing all the dead to Haley?

[Krytha]

My last breath... is also my mintiest...!!!

hahahaha pure gold.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

The order of events is:

Kill the enemy
Loot the bodies, and then the surrounding area.

Do it in reverse order, and you will find yourself on the looted list and not the looter list.

Yep.

I am going out on a limb and placing my bet that Celia doesn't die here.

[Milanius]

What I'm worried about here aren't the mint puns or the fact that winged hippie can't stay ungrappled for 10 minutes [although Roy's dead :smallyuk: ]; it's the fact that Bozzman has successfully dodged 2 Haley's attacks. Now, those were her first 2 strikes, with greatest To-Hit bonus, right? See now why I'm starting to get worried?


Mhmmmm, now that I've looked closely, one did hit him, but the next two miss. Still not good, but it's going to be close call. Belkar might have to pull aces out of his sleeve and hurry back.

Also, apologies, "Bonus" wasn't what I had in mind; I was thinking about regular attacks and their values, since it's clear there will be no sneak attacks for anyone at this point.

[Doug Lampert]

Well, except for the possibility of running out of arrows, but most people either have DMs that won't make them keep track of arrows or buy OVER NINE THOUSAND lots of them.

I keep track. I can still remember the players running out of arrows when being straffed by a group of advanced flying Chimeras (the spells were all long gone). They slowly cut back, eliminating long range shots while the chimeras were circling for their breath to recharge, then stopped with the itterative attacks and multishot taking only a single shot when the Chimeras were actually overhead at close range to breath (two actually, the readied action when they closed, then the second attack on their own round). They still ran out, open savana, no shelter that would stop Chimera fire in sight and they could see for over a mile in most directions.

Desperate search of character sheets for ANYTHING that would attack at range.

"Wait! I have a thousand arrows in my bag of holding!"

Since I'd been having Chimeras retire from the fight at half damage that ended it rather quickly with the survivors fleeing.

[Vectner]

That strip was minty fresh :D

[SpacemanSpif]

What I'm worried about here aren't the mint puns or the fact that winged hippie can't stay ungrappled for 10 minutes [although Roy's dead :smallyuk: ]; it's the fact that Bozzman has successfully dodged 2 Haley's attacks. Now, those were her first 2 strikes, with greatest To-Hit bonus, right? See now why I'm starting to get worried?

There's a good chance that Haley can't sneak attack Bozzak. He's kinda made it clear that killing rogues is what let him get to that high level, so it would make sense for him to take Improved Uncanny Dodge, or whatever it is that Haley thought made it so that Bozzak couldn't sneak attack her.

Unless, of course, you're talking about something other than sneak attacks giving her a to-hit bonus. I don't really play d&d.

[nybbler]

Celia is in a grapple. Haley has Improved Precise Shot.

"In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen. "

Hmm.

[Scutatus]

Ahhh, the classic frostmaiden-bowazon-build. That brings back memories. Stupid Duriel...

Diablo fan? :)

[spectralphoenix]

What I'm worried about here aren't the mint puns or the fact that winged hippie can't stay ungrappled for 10 minutes [although Roy's dead :smallyuk: ]; it's the fact that Bozzman has successfully dodged 2 Haley's attacks. Now, those were her first 2 strikes, with greatest To-Hit bonus, right? See now why I'm starting to get worried?
If they were (and I don't see how you got that,) that also means she hit with her third attack, which would have the lowest attack bonus. Besides the sample size is small enough that without knowing what she rolled, his AC could be anything.

In all probability, though, his AC isn't that great. He's probably wearing light armor and he ditched his shield. If Haley can keep moving and stay out of his reach, she's got a decent chance. As long as she can move 30 feet away from him each round and use the terrain to avoid being charged, Bozzak's options are limited while she can keep using Manyshot.

[spectralphoenix]

Celia is in a grapple. Haley has Improved Precise Shot.

"In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen. "

Hmm.

And everyone in a grapple loses their DEX bonus against everyone outside the grapple. Sneak attack city!

[Puppys&Rainbows]

I was hoping she would dual wield crossbows then drop them for her new bow, but I guess it isn't as cool in 2D.

[Quorothorn]

I wondered that too, since it's pretty clear from the fact that I've lost track of the multiplier on his multi-cross that he's Chaotic. A couple of possibilities occurred to me, though: 1) Trophy. He took it off some Lawful sucker that he sniped. 2) He went up against other Chaotics often enough that he considered the +2d6 damage worth the negative level.

It also occurs to me that going against a thieves' guild, Haley might find that a worthwhile tradeoff, too.

Those're my only guesses, too. An interesting touch, even if we never find out more.


Though I probably would've taken the icy burst, too. (Actually, my current Rogue PC, in Haley's situation, would've just pulled one of his many, many backup weapons and gone to town on Crystal. If she's attacking my weapons while I'm attacking her, I bet she runs out of hit points before I run out of concealed weapons. Especially since one of them is adamantine.)

Well, that's a problem the Order seem to have: do any of them have even one back-up weapon? You'd think they'd all have at least a dagger at their side. I would expect a high-level fighter to be kitted out with a variety of weapons of different materials and types for differing situations, not simply one steel sword.

[MageLeif]

Now that Haley has something much better than a +3 bow, she can easily defeat Crystal with her +4 dagger. :smallbiggrin:

[Lowkey]

Well, that's a problem the Order seem to have: do any of them have even one back-up weapon? You'd think they'd all have at least a dagger at their side. I would expect a high-level fighter to be kitted out with a variety of weapons of different materials and types for differing situations, not simply one steel sword.
Belkar has loads of daggers. Amazing that the guy with the lowest WIS and a correspondingly low INT is also the only guy to pack extra stuff.

[Drager]

I just don't get the mint refereces or the title, what am I missing?

I guess its realted to the other thing I don't get what is the funyn spelling and styling of archery about?

[Vaarsuvius4181]

im not a big DandD guy(besides neverwinter nights and dragonlance) so can someone explain why the first arrow froze and the next two just killed?

[hamishspence]

Critical hits- extra cold damage- freezing is visual shorthand for it?

[Vaarsuvius4181]

i suppose that makes sense

[Araltaln]

Foreshadowing! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0319.html)

Hey! Check this out. I wonder if Haley's new haircut is symbolic of a quick wrap up of sideplots and moving forward with the dramatic main line?

Nah. According to her, she last cut her hair that short "the first time I decided I didn't want to dye it anymore." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0614.html) As it happens, we've actually seen when this was, way back in #93 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html).

So, appropriately enough, that part of Haley's brain ("... that is sick of all this emo crap and wants to get back to comedy."), despite being new, was represented by Haley's previous post-emo phase.

It's still amusing to go back and see now, though, thanks :smallsmile:

[Twilight Jack]

Regarding whether Haley has Improved Precise Shot, and is thus 15th-level:

When evaluating the seeking bow, she comments that she has a feat which already does "most of that." Improved Precise Shot does more than a weapon with the seeking ability. I think there may be a different feat to which she is referring.

Now in the interests of fairness, seeking does do one thing that Improved Precise Shot doesn't, namely it negates miss chance for total concealment, provided that the arrow is aimed at the right square. So, from that standpoint, her statement that she's a feat that does "most of" what seeking does could apply to Improved Precise Shot. I'm just not quite ready to buy Haley as 15th level.

Although . . .

[Fighteer]

Love the "Icy Burst" bow gag, it's one of the funnier rules-related jokes that I've seen in a while. I'm glad to know that the Giant is not running out. :smalltongue:

As for Bozzok, he's wearing light armor and has almost certainly got a decent Dex bonus to go along with that, plus assorted AC boosting magic items (unless he totally sucks as a thief). It's not surprising that Haley has a difficult time hitting him. She does have Point Blank Shot, though, and he ditched his shield in order to be able to Power Attack, so the attack roll is well within her capabilities.

The battle itself should be interesting. Haley is focused on Dex and has good mental stats, while Bozzok seems to have bonuses or at least no penalties across all of his stats (High Str for Power Attack; Dex because, well, rogue; Con bonus as a half-orc; decent Int because he talks well and runs a thieves' guild; decent Wis because low Sense Motive = dead guild master; and decent Cha for leadership). Bozzok has a higher base attack bonus, is stronger in melee, and should have more hit points; Haley has the advantage of range and of heavy specialization with her chosen weapon. Neither has a flanking advantage, and Bozzok should be immune to Haley's Sneak Attacks anyway.

Bozzok's best option is to rely on his AC and higher hit points to back Haley into a corner, or pull off another surprise flank from one of his minions. Haley has to remain mobile, watch her back, and not give him a chance to connect with a Power Attack. And I would think that he'd absolutely use Celia-as-hostage against her if he started losing.

The wild card is, as always, Belkar. A full BAB ranger/barbarian should annihilate a rogue/assassin (Crystal) in direct melee without the opportunity to flank. With that handled, he'd be free to break out Celia or assist Haley, whichever ends up being more useful. Of course, being Belkar, I'm sure that he'll come up with a unique way to save the day while simultaneously screwing something up.

Here's a scary thought. Let's say he defeats Crystal but lets her live, Bond girl style (kiss 'em and leave 'em). He goes and rescues Haley and/or Celia, but then she shows back up, gets personal (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItsPersonal), and performs a successful Death Attack.

[hamishspence]

she was 12-13th level at Battle of Azure city. Its been more than 6 months since then- resistance- lots of fighting with Tsusiko and others- wouldn't surprise me that much.

[Twilight Jack]

she was 12-13th level at Battle of Azure city. Its been more than 6 months since then- resistance- lots of fighting with Tsusiko and others- wouldn't surprise me that much.

Yeah, that's the thought that was running through my mind when I typed, "Although. . ."

Of course, that means very sad things for Roy when he gets resurrected. Unless Haley is the only one to gain 2 levels since the battle (entirely possible, I suppose, since she's been doing more fighting than anyone else), that puts Roy 3 full levels behind the rest of the Order.

Everyone in the Order was 12th-13th during the battle, right? Durkon and V were definitely at least 13th. Roy's the leader, so it makes little sense for him to have been any lower than them.

Belkar's MoJ made levelling up a bit more difficult for him in the months after the battle, so it's not unlikely that he's only 13th or 14th now. What about Elan? Durkon? V? They've all been busy since the Battle of Azure City as well.

Does the Giant have good comedy prepared for Roy coming back to life as a 12th level character leading a party who is all 2-3 levels higher than him?

It's only the levelled down Roy that has kept me from accepting a well-levelled up Order since the Battle.

[nybbler]

I just don't get the mint refereces or the title, what am I missing?

LifeSavers candy. With flavors like Pep-O-Mint, Wint-O-Green, etc.

[hamishspence]

its possible Roy was up to 1 level ahead of rest of order. Since they will need true ressurrection to bring him back (long time dead) he won't lose a level.

[Twilight Jack]

its possible Roy was up to 1 level ahead of rest of order. Since they will need true ressurrection to bring him back (long time dead) he won't lose a level.

Normal resurrection, a 7th level spell that Durkon can cast, allows for the recipient to be dead quite a long time. It will be more than sufficient to get Roy up and kicking again.

But it comes with level loss. Unless the Giant comes up with a cunning plot twist to explain a true resurrection when the standard variety is cheaper and easily available once Durkon shows up, I don't think Roy is crossing back over without dropping a level.

Although I suppose it is possible that he was already 14th level at the time of his death.

[The_Firenail]

It was okay (http://www.isitfunnytoday.com/view.php?id=1841&t=d), but not very contributing to the plot.
Anyway, those crossbows looked kinda small, and I thought that was because of the distance.

That haircut is growing on me. :|

[hamishspence]

If you take the view that Roy's body was destroyed when golem was animated, and is still destroyed when golem is dead, they do need True Ressurrection.

Interestingly a pile of dust from Disintegrate can be Ressurected. Which is probably why "Gust of Wind"

[Fighteer]

Anyway, those crossbows looked kinda small, and I thought that was because of the distance.
They are probably hand crossbows, which I believe rogues get proficiency in by default, as opposed to light or heavy crossbows. I could be mistaken; it's been a long time since I've played and I'm AFB at the moment. Hand crossbows are much easier to load than the heavier types and can be wielded in a single hand (hence the name).


If you take the view that Roy's body was destroyed when golem was animated, and is still destroyed when golem is dead, they do need True Ressurrection.
The real issue isn't which version of the spell they would need, but which version they have available. Durkon is almost certainly not 17th level yet and therefore can't cast true resurrection. While true resurrection can indeed raise Roy while his body is being animated as a golem, regular resurrection cannot. The golem would have to be destroyed first.

The only plausible way out of this that doesn't result in a lost level for Roy would be if Haley manages to turn the tables on Bozzok sufficiently to actually take over leadership of the Greysky City Thieves' Guild. It wouldn't have to be permanent, just long enough to get a higher level cleric in the Temple of Loki to do the job.

[David Argall]

Now that Haley has something much better than a +3 bow, she can easily defeat Crystal with her +4 dagger. :smallbiggrin:
Haley merely has a bow that is harder to destroy. In combat, she is still dead meat vs Crystal, to say nothing of Bozzak. Your archer is a very useful member of the party, softens the enemy up before they can close, etc, but he [or she for Haley] dies fast once the melee people reach them.

[hamishspence]

yes, they are proficient with these exotic weapons. Drow are also, but most other classes have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

[Kilbia]

1. Sabine (remember Sabine?) likes to use what? Fire? We all know that with fire and ice, a dream can't come true...

Err. Sorry.

Don't be sorry - that was awesome. Even if I do have that stuck in my head now. =)

[SirEdward]

1. Sabine (remember Sabine?) likes to use what? Fire? We all know that with fire and ice, a dream can't come true...



Succubus:
...
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good,
darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance
to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy
100 ft., tongues

Please notice that the bow is not good aligned for the sake of damage reduction, Haley still doesn't know whether to use silver or cold iron, and she needs to roll more than 10 damage in her 2D10 damage roll to cause any cold damage at all to Sabine.

Please note that most monsters with elemental resistances are still affected normally by sonic attacks, though it is rather poor for sneaking around unnoticed.

[shakes019]

I dun see why <@.@> I'm a huge anime/manga geek and thought it was *hilarious* lol

"CHARGING GRAPPLE ATTACK!!"

Its especially funny given people yelling out spells/sneak attacks <,< So its really just poor fighters who don't get to shout at people!


Except Roy gets to do it too. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html)

[Fighteer]

Please notice that the bow is not good aligned for the sake of damage reduction, Haley still doesn't know whether to use silver or cold iron, and she needs to roll more than 10 damage in her 2D10 damage roll to cause any cold damage at all to Sabine.
You'd also have to add the 1d6 cold damage from the basic frost property of the weapon itself. 1d6+2d10 cold gives a pretty decent shot at blowing through Sabine's resistance.


Please note that most monsters with elemental resistances are still affected normally by sonic attacks, though it is rather poor for sneaking around unnoticed.
So is yelling, "Sneak Attack, B***H!"... or so one would think. The logic of D&D tends to quietly ignore the implied consequences of the use of various types of elemental magic from a physics standpoint. For example, the radiant heat from a fireball should cook things well outside of the blast itself, and a sonic attack loud enough to kill living creatures should shatter glass and cause various other forms of property damage hundreds of yards away. So it's entirely consistent that a sonic energy property of a weapon doesn't cause particularly more radiant noise than any other special property, however illogical that may be.

[factotum]

Belkar's MoJ made levelling up a bit more difficult for him in the months after the battle, so it's not unlikely that he's only 13th or 14th now.

He levelled up once (and almost certainly only once, given his dialogue) during that period, in strip #515. A Wight then level drained him again, but it's always possible he made his saving throw and lost the negative level the next day.

[Blanth]

Haley still doesn't know whether to use silver or cold iron

Excellent point. And there's really only one way to find out. 2cp says it's going to end up NOT being cold iron next they meet. Oh well.


Please note that most monsters with elemental resistances are still affected normally by sonic attacks, though it is rather poor for sneaking around unnoticed.

I do believe you are forgetting: SONIC!

[Shady_halfling]

Wait, where's she getting the arrows from?

crystal didn't break her quiver she still had that.

[Kish]

Belonging to the Thieves' Guild in the first place (which he did, he was 'one of their best snipers') is lawful?
Yes. Belonging to any but the most anarchic of organizations is a demonstration of order, and this Thieves' Guild is very ordered indeed, with rules, regulations, and a leader who cites "the good of the guild" as a justification for suppressing independent competition.

Whether it supports "the law" is irrelevant to the "Lawful" alignment.

[hamishspence]

oddly, sample thieves in Cityscape are all non-good, nonlawful.

Belonging to an organization doesn't make you lawful. Taking orders from superior, that you disagree with, or don't respect personally, thats more obviously Lawful. Even Chaotic orcs obey their warlord, if only out of respect and fear.

and look at Shojo- he didn't just belong to organization- he was head of it. His Chaotic side could be seen in his breaking its rules (secretly).

[mroozee]

I don't think you quite understand how large the Greysky City guild is.:smalltongue:

It may be large, but we have seen the same Guild Members around Haley over and over - something you wouldn't expect to see if there were hundreds of guild members running around. My guess is that we have seen close to everyone in the guild - or at least close to everyone who is looking for the OOTS'ers.

[Fighteer]

Yes. Belonging to any but the most anarchic of organizations is a demonstration of order, and this Thieves' Guild is very ordered indeed, with rules, regulations, and a leader who cites "the good of the guild" as a justification for suppressing independent competition.

Whether it supports "the law" is irrelevant to the "Lawful" alignment.
Negative, Ghost Rider. If that were true, than Chaotic individuals could never form groups of anything other than temporary convenience. A Thieves' Guild has rules, to be sure, but they are generally based on the idea of maximizing its members' ability to profit without crowding each others' turf. Leadership in such a guild is based on your ability to navigate the murky currents of power in a Chaotic political system while keeping your back free of sharp stabby instruments.

Or you can look at it this way: in a Lawful organization, members can be expected to follow the rules because they are rules. In a Chaotic organization, rules are only followed if they are more convenient than not following them.

By saying Chaotic characters can't form a guild, you make one of the basic D&D alignment mistakes: thinking that Chaos means total rejection of all rules. Chaotic characters are not crazed lawless anarchists. They do not break laws simply because they exist. They do not roll a die every morning to decide what to do that day. On the other hand, they do value individualism over blind obedience. They feel that actions speak louder than words. They follow leaders who command their respect, not just ones who are placed over them by a law or rule. In fact, they inherently distrust anything that smacks of arbitrary authority.

Such individuals can be persuaded to band together for a common cause, but the leader must always be one step ahead or he'll find himself replaced (or worse, ignored). This perfectly describes a Thieves' Guild.

[LuisDantas]

It may be large, but we have seen the same Guild Members around Haley over and over - something you wouldn't expect to see if there were hundreds of guild members running around. My guess is that we have seen close to everyone in the guild - or at least close to everyone who is looking for the OOTS'ers.

Haley's statement that she knows all her current opponents by name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html) supports your conclusion. It suggests that Haley herself doesn't expect the guild to have many new people.

Of course, she was proven wrong when Yor joined the fray. But still, it is an indicator of the guild's size.

[David Argall]

It may be large, but we have seen the same Guild Members around Haley over and over - something you wouldn't expect to see if there were hundreds of guild members running around.

This is a literary problem, not an indication of the size of the guild. Writers tend to reuse characters rather than invent new ones. Sometimes for good reason. Look at all the strips wanting to see X again. And it is less work too. So the members of the guild who appeared before have a strong tendency to appear again, whether the guild is 10 members or 10,000.

[Toper]

Does no one else wonder how a blind man in Greysky City managed to retain a fortune in magical weaponry in an unprotected room right off the front foyer?

[John Campbell]

You'd also have to add the 1d6 cold damage from the basic frost property of the weapon itself. 1d6+2d10 cold gives a pretty decent shot at blowing through Sabine's resistance.

She only gets the +2d10 on a crit, and probably only crits on a 20.

Icy burst really isn't a very good enchantment... 95% of the time, plain old frost is just as good, and it's way cheaper.

[Fighteer]

Does no one else wonder how a blind man in Greysky City managed to retain a fortune in magical weaponry in an unprotected room right off the front foyer?
Nobody but the people it's intended for ever notice the Wall of Weapons (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallOfWeapons). It's a basic staple of comedic fiction.

[WarriorTribble]

Does no one else wonder how a blind man in Greysky City managed to retain a fortune in magical weaponry in an unprotected room right off the front foyer?The Thief Guild also acted as a police force of shorts. As long as Pete payed his protection money, I'm sure his stuff would have remained unstolen and protected.

[Kish]

Negative, Ghost Rider. If that were true, than Chaotic individuals could never form groups of anything other than temporary convenience. A Thieves' Guild has rules, to be sure, but they are generally based on the idea of maximizing its members' ability to profit without crowding each others' turf.
Because, of course, every Thieves' Guild is a Chaotic organization even though rogues can be any alignment. :smallsigh: We agree on one thing: One of us is making one of the basic alignment mistakes.

(For the record, though, saying that supporting an organization is inherently Lawful--how Lawful, depends on the precise nature of the organization, with Bozzok's guild seeming more Lawful than a lot of organizations--isn't at all the same as saying no Chaotic character could do it.)

[Starwaster]

If you wrote for a living, you might well feel differently. Many writers have been harassed by people who claim that the writer 'stole' some idea of theirs. Ask David Gerrold.

It's probably an occupational hazard.:wink:


Actually, Ive allways thought that statement by Rich is both rude and pompous. "Inspriation" is no cuss-word and I dont think even daVinci could have done without it. There really is no reason for an artist to comment on such things in either direction unless there is some moronic american law of "partial copyright", or the likes, that forces you to state something like this.

[Fighteer]

Because, of course, every Thieves' Guild is a Chaotic organization even though rogues can be any alignment. :smallsigh: We agree on one thing: One of us is making one of the basic alignment mistakes.
I'd challenge you to find an explanation of a Thieves Guild that doesn't involve breaking the law in some way. Now there are some morality plays where one or more of the principal members of such a guild might be Lawful, but it doesn't really fit in with the whole "breaking into houses and taking the shineys" concept.


(For the record, though, saying that supporting an organization is inherently Lawful--how Lawful, depends on the precise nature of the organization, with Bozzok's guild seeming more Lawful than a lot of organizations--isn't at all the same as saying no Chaotic character could do it.)
Supporting an organization is inherently neither Lawful nor Chaotic. It depends entirely on the motivations behind the support.

Edit: Ugh, I need to spend more time reading before posting. I think you are agreeing with me?

Bozzok's Thieves' Guild may be slightly better organized than many, but its basic methods are no less unlawful, which I will stipulate does not automatically mean Chaotic. The fact that members who leave are threatened with death, though, indicates that the guild isn't placing much faith in their honor and loyalty. Further, it's pretty obvious that Bozzok didn't rise to his present position by means of a popular vote, and that he won't leave that way either. However, in the meantime, he has it quite firmly under his control... well, until Haley showed up anyway.

You also have to take the guild in context to its surroundings; compared to the general state of anarchy in Greysky, almost any form of organization looks Lawful.

[xelliea]

nice comic, where are the 5000 comics?

[KuH]

Hmmm, Yor's name has me thinking ...

I wonder if his name is a long setup for a gruesome death followed by the pun of: 'Alas, poor Yor', 'Ick', 'I knew him well'

[Kish]

I'd challenge you to find an explanation of a Thieves Guild that doesn't involve breaking the law in some way.

Irrelevant, since the Lawful alignment has to do with "ordered," not "the law."


Edit: Ugh, I need to spend more time reading before posting. I think you are agreeing with me?

Bozzok's Thieves' Guild may be slightly better organized than many, but its basic methods are no less unlawful, which I will stipulate does not automatically mean Chaotic. The fact that members who leave are threatened with death, though, indicates that the guild isn't placing much faith in their honor and loyalty.

I would say the exact opposite. The fact that Bozzok exerts such firm and uncompromising control over the Guild, with structured rules, lethal punishment for infractions, and detailed bookkeeping on how much of their take the guild's members have to give "to the guild" (it being nearly all is the evil part), and Bozzok even lectures Haley on how it would be "bad for the Guild" if she was permitted to ignore the rules, shows this particular Thieves' Guild as probably the most strongly Lawful Evil organization we've seen in the comic to date. (Or, at least, that's what Bozzok wants it to be--remembering both Hank and Pete stealing from the guild, it's quite possible that a more thorough view of the guild would show it as seething anarchy barely held under nominal control by its Lawful Evil leader. But this whole tangent started because someone said it was Chaotic for Pete to join the guild at all, which demonstrates the classic "they break the law, so they're the opposite of Lawful" alignment misunderstanding.)

[dps]

Irrelevant, since the Lawful alignment has to do with "ordered," not "the law."

I would say the exact opposite. The fact that Bozzok exerts such firm and uncompromising control over the Guild, with structured rules, lethal punishment for infractions, and detailed bookkeeping on how much of their take the guild's members have to give "to the guild" (it being nearly all is the evil part), and Bozzok even lectures Haley on how it would be "bad for the Guild" if she was permitted to ignore the rules, shows this particular Thieves' Guild as probably the most strongly Lawful Evil organization we've seen in the comic to date. (Or, at least, that's what Bozzok wants it to be--remembering both Hank and Pete stealing from the guild, it's quite possible that a more thorough view of the guild would show it as seething anarchy barely held under nominal control by its Lawful Evil leader. But this whole tangent started because someone said it was Chaotic for Pete to join the guild at all, which demonstrates the classic "they break the law, so they're the opposite of Lawful" alignment misunderstanding.)

In the real world, a person who doesn't want to be bound by any rules or regulations himself (which would be chaotic) may still very well attempt to tightly control the actions of his subordinates/underlings (which would be lawful). I'm not sure how that dichotomy would work in DnD terms; it's been too long since I've played, and I never played all that much anyway.

[The Minx]

In the real world, a person who doesn't want to be bound by any rules or regulations himself (which would be chaotic) may still very well attempt to tightly control the actions of his subordinates/underlings (which would be lawful). I'm not sure how that dichotomy would work in DnD terms; it's been too long since I've played, and I never played all that much anyway.

Wanting others to submit to tight control by your rules and desires is not necessarily Lawful. Even the Slaad Lords want their minions to obey them. That is not to say that they are successful as long as said minions are beyond arm's reach, of course, but still.

[Kish]

Wanting others to submit to tight control by your rules and desires is not necessarily Lawful. Even the Slaad Lords want their minions to obey them. That is not to say that they are successful as long as said minions are beyond arm's reach, of course, but still.
Yes, but how would they phrase that?

Would they talk about, "The good of all slaad," and have books of formalized rules? Or would they just say, "Don't piss me off or I'll beat you up"?

[Assassin89]

Being lawful does not mean you do always follow the rules of society. If a certain rule in society is corrupt, a lawful person is not obliged to follow it. Similarly for chaotic people, although a code of conduct can be placed onto others, they are not obliged to follow.

[The Minx]

Yes, but how would they phrase that?

Would they talk about, "The good of all slaad," and have books of formalized rules? Or would they just say, "Don't piss me off or I'll beat you up"?

Probably it would include #2.

Instead of #1, it would be "this is in your personal interests too, because of X, Y and Z". Reasons X, Y and Z may well have been arranged by the Slaad Lord at some prior point, of course.

[Samurai Jill]

Wanting others to submit to tight control by your rules and desires is not necessarily Lawful.
How else do you define obedience to authority figures? Emphasis on hierarchy, control and group composition strikes me as pretty much Lawful.

[hamishspence]

Elves society has its courts to resolve disputes, Orc society has what order there is enforced by strength, Drow Society, while more NE with CE leaders, has "tradition" as one of its most important ordering factors.

very few Chaotic societies are completely without some form of rules- the Diaboli in Dragon Compedium, and earlier Mystara setting, have no government, but still have traditions, taboos, etc.

in the context of D&D, Chaotic societies aren't completely disordered, its just the way the are ordered tend to be different from Lawful societies- less conformist, but they still have rules and traditions.

[Samurai Jill]

Yes, exactly. But that's still a Lawful aspect to other Chaotic individuals.

Personally I think the term 'Chaotic society' is an oxymoron. Societies, by definition, need to be fairly damn regimented or they don't last long enough in a particular form to be called a 'society.'

[hamishspence]

How regimented can cover a fairly wide range, from "do no harm, but otherwise do as you like" (anything not explicitly forbidden is permitted) to the reverse- rules are all- anything not explicitly permitted is forbidden.

a Chaotic society might has laws restricting the governmnet, police- etc- freedom of action, conscience, and so on. The higher the focus on "individual rights" the more likely it is that a society has a Chaotic bent.

Elves, in Races of the Wild, are a fairly Chaotic society whose rulers rule with a light hand.

[mroozee]

This is a literary problem, not an indication of the size of the guild. Writers tend to reuse characters rather than invent new ones. Sometimes for good reason. Look at all the strips wanting to see X again. And it is less work too. So the members of the guild who appeared before have a strong tendency to appear again, whether the guild is 10 members or 10,000.

Fair enough though this may just be a distinction without a difference. From Haley's point of view, if the guild has 10,000 members but only 30 will ever interact with the story (for literary reasons) there's not a whole lot of plot significance added by the remaining 9,970. So maybe a better way to phrase it would've been:

"My guess is that we have seen close to everyone in the guild that we will see - or at least close to everyone that we will observe looking for the OOTS'ers."

With the exact same justification.

[Fighteer]

In a Lawful society, people can generally be expected to follow the rules and structures merely because they exist. Disobedience tends to take the form of attempting to work within the system to overturn bad laws. Enforcement tends to be strict and by the book. There is usually a clearly defined process for selecting leaders and that process may or may not have anything to do with the quality of the person chosen. The social hierarchy is clearly established and there is a formal system for moving up or down the ladder, if it's possible at all. Justice is meted out by courts and appointed officials.

In a Chaotic society, people follow the rules when they agree with them or when the consequences for disobedience aren't worth the potential gain, and feel free to disregard them otherwise. Enforcement can be brutal (in a Chaotic Evil society), capricious (in a Chaotic Neutral society), or based on the greatest good (in a Chaotic Good society), but is seldom highly regimented. Prisons, if they exist, are for the worst offenders; most punishments are fast and direct. Leadership tends to fall to the most effective or at least the most popular individual, and is seldom long-term unless it's hereditary, in which case there's usually a council that does whatever the hell it wants most of the time. The social hierarchy is fluid and mobility is based on merit, power, charisma, or whatever the society values.

Neutrals are of course somewhere inbetween, with formal rules but a less structured system for dealing with them.

In short, a Chaotic society does not equal an anarchy. Well, it may at times, but that's as much an extreme as the Lawful Stupid archetype. Even Chaotic individuals recognize that some structures are needed to make a society work, and those who reject structure entirely usually wander off to do their own thing with little fanfare.

While it's true that a Thieves' Guild could in theory be a Lawful organization, it's extremely rare and one would expect severe clashes within such a group between the highly regimented structure and the individualism of its members. Similarly, there's nothing saying that a Chaotic guild can't have strong, effective leadership and well-enforced rules as long as its members agree that it's in their best interest or are too cowed to rebel.

If Bozzok's guild had formal ranks, a military-like chain of command, a Constitution, a fee/rate structure, a court/appeal system, uniforms, etc., then I might suspect it of being Lawful. However, I've seen nothing in the comic to suggest this, and everything to suggest that Bozzok leads by virtue of competence and by eliminating anyone who's a serious rival. These are fundamentally Chaotic principles, regardless of his alignment, which may indeed be Neutral or even Lawful.

[hamishspence]

now, the Thieves Guild on Discworld- that takes regimentation a long way- quotas, authorized thievery by permission of the Patrician, rules for how much thieves of lower rank can steal compared to higher rank, opportunities for people to pay premium to insure no more than a certain level of crime against themselves, etc.

And unauthorized crime meets with the full force of Injustice, which is generally a big stick with nails in it.

You'd have to go a long way to find a more Lawful Thieves Guild than the Ankh-Morpork one.

[Warren Dew]

Yes, but how would they phrase that?

Would they talk about, "The good of all slaad," and have books of formalized rules? Or would they just say, "Don't piss me off or I'll beat you up"?

If they had a minion like Haley, who might be more open to "good of all" arguments, they'd probably use that argument with that minion.

We shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that just because Bozzok says something, he necessarily actually believes it.

[hamishspence]

Bozzok has a track record of polite to people's faces, vicious when they have gone. In Origin of PCs he lets Haley go, and she finds out he usually sends assassins, from Hank.

[Simanos]

In a Lawful society, people can generally be expected to follow the rules and structures merely because they exist. Disobedience tends to take the form of attempting to work within the system to overturn bad laws. Enforcement tends to be strict and by the book. There is usually a clearly defined process for selecting leaders and that process may or may not have anything to do with the quality of the person chosen. The social hierarchy is clearly established and there is a formal system for moving up or down the ladder, if it's possible at all. Justice is meted out by courts and appointed officials.

In a Chaotic society, people follow the rules when they agree with them or when the consequences for disobedience aren't worth the potential gain, and feel free to disregard them otherwise. Enforcement can be brutal (in a Chaotic Evil society), capricious (in a Chaotic Neutral society), or based on the greatest good (in a Chaotic Good society), but is seldom highly regimented. Prisons, if they exist, are for the worst offenders; most punishments are fast and direct. Leadership tends to fall to the most effective or at least the most popular individual, and is seldom long-term unless it's hereditary, in which case there's usually a council that does whatever the hell it wants most of the time. The social hierarchy is fluid and mobility is based on merit, power, charisma, or whatever the society values.

Neutrals are of course somewhere inbetween, with formal rules but a less structured system for dealing with them.

In short, a Chaotic society does not equal an anarchy. Well, it may at times, but that's as much an extreme as the Lawful Stupid archetype. Even Chaotic individuals recognize that some structures are needed to make a society work, and those who reject structure entirely usually wander off to do their own thing with little fanfare.

While it's true that a Thieves' Guild could in theory be a Lawful organization, it's extremely rare and one would expect severe clashes within such a group between the highly regimented structure and the individualism of its members. Similarly, there's nothing saying that a Chaotic guild can't have strong, effective leadership and well-enforced rules as long as its members agree that it's in their best interest or are too cowed to rebel.

If Bozzok's guild had formal ranks, a military-like chain of command, a Constitution, a fee/rate structure, a court/appeal system, uniforms, etc., then I might suspect it of being Lawful. However, I've seen nothing in the comic to suggest this, and everything to suggest that Bozzok leads by virtue of competence and by eliminating anyone who's a serious rival. These are fundamentally Chaotic principles, regardless of his alignment, which may indeed be Neutral or even Lawful.

Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
/Monty Python

[Solara]

I don't see it as inconsistency so much as growth. She used to bitch about Haley killing people, now she's starting to accept that as long as she herself doesn't kill people, her principles are intact. Besides, Haley just told her she was going to kill people, and then she does...why should she be shocked?


I don't have time to read all nine pages so maybe this was already brought up, but besides the fact that Celia might be learning to be at least a little practical in life and death situations, I wondered if there wasn't a meta-joke in there something about players who do this same thing, RP a 'pacifist' character who abhors violence but for some reason cheerfully tags along with a bunch of more typical adventurers and just whistling and looking the other way whenever the slaughter starts.

At least Celia is in this situation because events forced it upon her, that alone makes it much more realistic than the so-called peaceful characters voluntarily seeking this sort of thing out for xp and shines...

[RosesOnConcrete]

*blah blah alignment babble blah blah number of Guildies blah blah BLAH*

Man, I kinda hate how every "OOTS #new - The Discussion Thread" topic turns into a debate on rules and logic. Funny jokes > making sense, guys. :smalltongue:

Also: DAMMIT CELIA *headdesk*

Some killer lines in this one, Giant.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

*blah blah alignment babble blah blah number of Guildies blah blah BLAH*

Man, I kinda hate how every "OOTS #new - The Discussion Thread" topic turns into a debate on rules and logic. Funny jokes > making sense, guys. :smalltongue:

Also: DAMMIT CELIA *headdesk*

Some killer lines in this one, Giant.

Eh, that's just how you know the thread's past its sell-by date. If it were in the fridge, it would be blue, fuzzy and deliquescing. (Hey, do Cthulhian horrors pick up dinner at a deliquetessen?)

[Alwaysfeliz]

i just registered only to say that whole 'my last breath...is also my mintiest'...is the funniest thing comic line i've read since BW signed off from Calvin and Hobbes. kudos on a cracker of a line - i so hope Rich was chortling to himself as he wrote it....

[B.I.T.T.]

"My last breath is also my mintiest." Classic!

Good comic.