How common are half-orcs, anyway?

[ABB]

Thog.

Threkla.

Bozzok.

Are half orcs this common in D&D? And what's the big deal with them anyway?

[Theodoriph]

You've named three. That's not alot. :smalltongue:



It depends on the campaign setting, but for the most part, yes, they are common.

You can basically assume that any standard race in D&D 3.5 (Human, Elf, Half-Orc etc.) is considered common in any campaign setting, unless restrictions have been placed by the authors of the campaign setting or the DM.

[NeonRonin]

Depending on the size of orcish encampments/villages and their proximity to human settlements, half-orcs can be commonplace or rare; just depends on your geographical setting. Forgotten Realms has at least one orcish kingdom(the Many Arrows orcs, led by King Obould Many-Arrows), so it wouldn't surprise me to see half-orcs in at least modest numbers, if not moderate to large.

Seems to me it's mostly the prerogative of the GM and how he works with the setting he has. I once ran a homebrew campaign setting that had a number of interesting features- a southern savannah region inhabited by hobgoblin barbarians that actually traded with humans and got on reasonably well with them; a Northern country ruled by a ducal gynarchy that contained hidden settlements of Rockseer elves(old 2nd edition supplement); an entire wasteland continent ruled over by a confederation of Beholders. I had a lot of fun messing with 'traditional' things found in the Monster Manual, bending and tweaking them here and there. It's the same thing with the whole half-orc situation- it's all up to the GM.

(Sorry about the long spiel, BTW.)

[Limos]

Depending on the size of orcish encampments/villages and their proximity to human settlements, half-orcs can be commonplace or rare; just depends on your geographical setting. Forgotten Realms has at least one orcish kingdom(the Many Arrows orcs, led by King Obould Many-Arrows), so it wouldn't surprise me to see half-orcs in at least modest numbers, if not moderate to large.

Seems to me it's mostly the prerogative of the GM and how he works with the setting he has. I once ran a homebrew campaign setting that had a number of interesting features- a southern savannah region inhabited by hobgoblin barbarians that actually traded with humans and got on reasonably well with them; a Northern country ruled by a ducal gynarchy that contained hidden settlements of Rockseer elves(old 2nd edition supplement); an entire wasteland continent ruled over by a confederation of Beholders. I had a lot of fun messing with 'traditional' things found in the Monster Manual, bending and tweaking them here and there. It's the same thing with the whole half-orc situation- it's all up to the GM.

(Sorry about the long spiel, BTW.)

I would like to see a campaign setting where the more traditional player races are all dead and the world is ruled by the more monstrous races. Where the basic civilization is all filled with Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs and the like.

Give the goblinoids some love for once.

[SPoD]

Are half orcs this common in D&D?

Yes, actually. Possibly more common, even.

[Hida Reju]

Well if all Orc women looked like the one on the left..


http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2011085070078404272plFXqt

[factotum]

Well if all Orc women looked like the one on the left..

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2011085070078404272plFXqt

Not really into muscles and dead-black eyes myself, but each to his own, I suppose. :smallbiggrin:

Now, the one on the RIGHT...

[Nof]

As long as orcs are common and they are easily inter-fertile with other humanoids, due to their pillaging habits it's not unlikely they left lot of half-orcs in their trails... :smallredface:

[Khanderas]

Half-orcs being of mixed blood may feel the pull towards adventureer like professions more often.
As in 10 000 humans in a city, 12 of them adventurers. 5 halforcs and 4 of them adventurers (last one is a bouncer at a bar or something).

Edit: By adventurers I mean PC classes. Like Rogue or Barbarian

[Prowl]

It's the one-and-a-half-orcs you really need to worry about.

[Mercenary Pen]

It's the one-and-a-half-orcs you really need to worry about.

Its an Orc with three legs, three arms and two heads, run for your lives!!!

Would probably count as an aberration.

[Iranon]

Meh. The most unattractive feature in the usual depiction of orc women is the cheap tart outfit.
Well, that and the fact that they look more like porn stars after fantastically bad surgery and a paint job than members of a warlike and imposing race who get a +4 to STR.

I could definitely see orcs as being somewhat attractive in their own way if the artists didn't try so hard...

[maxon]

Meh. The most unattractive feature in the usual depiction of orc women is the cheap tart outfit.

Ah yes, chainmail bikini.

[NeonRonin]

Meh. The most unattractive feature in the usual depiction of orc women is the cheap tart outfit.
Well, that and the fact that they look more like porn stars after fantastically bad surgery and a paint job than members of a warlike and imposing race who get a +4 to STR.

I could definitely see orcs as being somewhat attractive in their own way if the artists didn't try so hard...

I definitely did not get the 'porn star' impression when I saw the picture of the female half-orc in the original 3rd Edition D&D book- the one with the lineup of females from each race. That lady was NO lady. :smalleek:

[Optimystik]

For most half-orcs, the FATHER is the orcblood. Therkla is an exceptional exception.

Very, very few human males will romance or be able to force themselves on an orc woman.

[T-O-E]

I would like to see a campaign setting where the more traditional player races are all dead and the world is ruled by the more monstrous races. Where the basic civilization is all filled with Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs and the like.

Give the goblinoids some love for once.

The Goblins don't need more love, they have their own webcomic.

[Assassin89]

For most half-orcs, the FATHER is the orcblood. Therkla is an exceptional exception.

Very, very few human males will romance or be able to force themselves on an orc woman.

More like willing to romance an orc female. In cases of some female Orcs being the orcblood, it could be abduction for reproduction (see the Gerudo of Legend of Zelda, Amazons, etc.).

[hamishspence]

Depends on the setting. In some settings orc women, while not attractive, aren't totally hideous. Stickverse orcs don't look all that ugly (art style might have something to do with that).

[Kurald Galain]

The Goblins don't need more love, they have their own webcomic.

That's right! (http://yafgc.shipsinker.com/) :smallbiggrin:

[Querzis]

Only three half-orc (well actually four, there was also that guy who kept the OOTS horses) in the entire comic mean they are pretty damn rare actually. In D&D they are supposed to be more common then that. Beside, because of racism, half-orc usually cant get any other work then adventuring or killing so of course adventurers run into them often. Anyway we arent sure if Bozzok is a half-orc or an orc.

And by the way, I'm really tired of people who seems to automatically assume half-orc are the childrens of a male orc who raped a female human. Hell, the Giant too seems to dislike it from what we saw in the strip about Therkla origin. Read the freaking books, half-orc were originally said to come mainly from northern land where orcs and humans live in peace...thats it. No rape involved. Its not their fault if it seems players got absolutely no imagination and cant think of any other backstory for their half-orc then an orc who raped their mother when they were pillaging their village!!!

[hamishspence]

pretty much. They do come last on the list of races that make up population of generic cities, so they always will be few in number.

[Nof]

It's just hard to believe that a girl would voluntary establish herself with an orc. Even I, who craves for alpha-males, would be disgusted by the idea.
Or maybe in some of the settings that describes orcs as, mainly, norses painted in green... But I don't really see the purpose of such things, other than to claim that "our orcs are different", or to seem to be cheaply progressive by having no evil races.

Yeah, it was played humorously in the other way in the comic, but it's the unlikeliness of it and the play on the cliche that makes it funny. It's not a protest against something the author hate (or at least, I didn't read it this way).

[Querzis]

It's just hard to believe that a girl would voluntary establish herself with an orc. Even I, who craves for alpha-males, would be disgusted by the idea.
Or maybe in some of the settings that describes orcs as, mainly, norses painted in green... But I don't really see the purpose of such things, other than to claim that "our orcs are different", or to seem to be cheaply progressive by having no evil races.

Yeah, it was played humorously in the other way in the comic, but it's the unlikeliness of it and the play on the cliche that makes it funny. It's not a protest against something the author hate (or at least, I didn't read it this way).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html The chief said: «That imply very ugly backstory.

Half-orc arent in fourth edition, you know why? The author said it was because of the «ugly backstory». This strip came pretty much right after they said that so its no coincidence. Half of the thread of this strip was about half-orc and the fact that the ugly backstory just come from players who lack imagination.

And I'm pretty damn sure love got almost nothing to do with what you look like. Beside, most of the orc I saw in fiction werent that bad (except in warhammer). Hell, I know for a fact that Thrall got more fangirls then any humans in Warcraft history thanks to WoW forums and, from Elan reaction, I'm pretty damn sure Therkla was really pretty.

[Nof]

And Warcraft Orcs are nothing more than Norses/Mongols painted in green. Straight to my point.

And about the "love doesn't care about what you look like", it has limits. There is no way to love a Warhammer orc (which, ironically, can't have this kind of "ugly-backstory" anymore) or a LotR one.

[hamishspence]

Forgotten Realms does have a city where orcs live peacefully alongside humans, with a growing half-orc population and orc women coming to it in search of orcs of a less barbaric bent. Phsant, in the Unapproachable east- the orcs were Zhentarim soldiers who chose to remain, after the Tuigan War ended, instead of returning.

100 odd years on, on other side of continent, the Kingdom of Many Arrows is on peaceful enough terms with neighbours to marry off orc princess to human lord. There are a few reactionaries on both sides though.

[Querzis]

And Warcraft Orcs are nothing more than Norses/Mongols painted in green. Straight to my point.

D&D orcs and warcraft orcs always seemed to really look like each other to me. Maybe you just started with the wrong fiction but most orcs I know are described like D&D orcs and Wacraft orcs (by the way, LoTR orcs are tortured elves...so yeah).

Anyway, you need to go on the internet a bit more. There is tons of story of attractive man or women who marry someone horribly deformed or disfigured.

[hamishspence]

lookswise, aside from being green (and its not easy being green :smallbiggrin:) orcs aren't any uglier than that guy in Doctor Who that ended up looking half-pig. Was clear his girlfriend wasn't that discouraged.

[David Argall]

It is assumed that the normal orc-human [or most any other race] interaction is violent. Orcs are raiding humans, or vice-versa. So our typical orc-human sexual contact is going to be violent, or with a slave taken in a raid. Good orcs, or peaceful contact with bad ones, is fairly rare. Of course we have 2nd and 3rd generation half-orcs, but somewhere in the ancestry is apt to be some degree of rape.

Now the official charts give half-orcs as varying from less than 0.5% to 3%.

[hamishspence]

Who's doing the assuming though?

As he said, PHB speaks of the uneasy peace between orc and human tribes, trading, half-orcs being born in both societies, though the ones raised by orcs are "usually the evil ones"

people may make the assumption, but the PHB doesn't default to it.

in Races of Destiny, it discusses the possibilities- love, arranged marriage, abduction,
and upbringing- with parent(s) adopted, or even abandoned.

so, arranged marriage between member of orc and member of human tribe would be consistant with PHB. Or love.

[Nof]

people may make the assumption, but the PHB doesn't default to it.
It's just that it doesn't have any sense to populate a setting with human painted in green. If you don't want orcs, just stick with humans.

[hamishspence]

well, fierce, barbaric, green humans. But that is fairly close to the D&D version. Nothing orcs do in any D&D novel is out of character with humans, really. and the more unpleasant elves characterise humans as basically orcs with better organization.

though it is true that there is a progression: from just villains, to having a lot more personality and goals. in more reecent books and short stroies, R. A. Salvatore in particular has made orcs less one-note and shown their potential.

[Nof]

You can show their potential without ripping them of their orcishness (see Warhammer or its 40k version, who has really good source books about orcs that doesn't have anything human). In fact, by doing so, you don't show their potential at all: you just make them humans. Showing how barbaric humans behave doesn't expose anything about orc's potential. Drop the green skin then, you'll have a far more interesting setting.

[hamishspence]

D&D orcs go back about as far as Warhammer ones, but their "orcishness" is different. Potential in this case means potential for improvement- redemption, etc, or even just growing beyond "raiders"

Goblins get more of the "different" feel in Realms of Infamy short sory- their myth of being transformed from maggots boring into the world into their current form, and a generally more malevolent feel than orcs.

in D&D, orcs are "Often chaotic evil" but its not clear if they are more likely to be Neutral or Good, than races which are "usually evil"

[yanmaodao]

And Warcraft Orcs are nothing more than Norses/Mongols painted in green. Straight to my point.

Orcs in other settings, D&D or otherwise, are far shallower. They're basically XP points painted in green.

I don't see what you find so compelling about "Always Chaotic Evil" races, which seem to me to be the epitome of lazy writing.

[Puppeteer]

Mmh, I seem to be the only one or among the few to instantly link half-orcs to raping due to some orc pillaging on human villages/towns...
Me and my low fantasy ideas...

[hamishspence]

Often CE, these days, not Always CE. they started out pretty flat, but in novels have grown some.

[Nof]

I don't see what you find so compelling about "Always Chaotic Evil" races, which seem to me to be the epitome of lazy writing.
I never said that I find "Always Chaotic Evil" races compelling. I enjoy the fact that, in the right circumstance, an individual can go beyond of the values its society glorify.

I just don't see any point to have fantasy races that behave exactly as human society did. It's as much lazy writing.

Mmh, I seem to be the only one or among the few to instantly link half-orcs to raping due to some orc pillaging on human villages/towns...
Me and my low fantasy ideas...
It's even more interesting (and add far more depth) when people in the setting as us, make instantly this link. Because then, the half-orcs are rejected for something additional to plain xeonophobia. They are tainted with shame, pain, and more important, the society failure to protect its member (one of the first and prime element of a society). As everybody else that personify a society's failure (like homeless people those days), they are ostracized, seen with disgust, ignored, or just plain hated.

It add far more depth to a character than a Beauty and Beast background (when it's not played for laugh, as it is here.)

[hamishspence]

the point is- CE values go way back. "an individual rising above his society" is interesting (though trite if overdone) whether it is orc, drow or human.

Obould combines traditional Orc warlord virtues with a certain foresight and a desire to make his people civilized.

I prefer the mix of "normal" traits with something different- aspiration, in characters like Obould and Liriel Baenre, to characters who have almost nothing in common with their people (Drizzt)

[Captain Six]

I don't know if it was said but there have been shown a lot more full orcs than half orcs on that one island alone. Half orcs aren't nearly as common as full orcs, there are just more half orcs hanging around human cities.

[Querzis]

It's just that it doesn't have any sense to populate a setting with human painted in green. If you don't want orcs, just stick with humans.

Lookwise, regardless of what kind of orcs we are speaking of, they are still more different then humans then elf or halfling so I really dont see your point at all.


I just don't see any point to have fantasy races that behave exactly as human society did. It's as much lazy writing.

...But they absolutely all behave like a human society do or once did, even Warhammer orcs. You dont have to search too far to find a human society who liked fighting and did pretty much nothing else then raid and pillage. Once again, I dont see your point. And, once again, since barbaric norse where considered outcast by everyone in Europe, orcs are still a lot more different then humans then elf or dwarf.

[hamishspence]

Norse weren't just raiders- thats only the side people saw. They were farmers, explorers, traders, and more.

Civilization is a mix of "barbaric" and "tribal" traits- barbarians rule over tribes instead of raiding them long enough, civilization evolves.

[Twilight Jack]

Orcs in other settings, D&D or otherwise, are far shallower. They're basically XP points painted in green.

I don't see what you find so compelling about "Always Chaotic Evil" races, which seem to me to be the epitome of lazy writing.

I don't see that Nof is arguing that orcs are "always Chaotic Evil." But orcs are definitely seen in the source material as a vicious and venal species. By the alignment guidelines in the Monster Manual, "often Chaotic Evil" means that 40-50% of the members of any given orcish population are CE. Out of nine possible alignments, one is given vast preference. Exceptions are still common, but the species' reputation is well-deserved. It tends to suggest that the "ugly backstory" versions of half-orcs is also the more common version.

By the by, I don't see that as lazy writing, if handled well. Exceptions are always more interesting than the rule, and if you downplay the truth of the expectation, then the exception is less compelling.

As Nof pointed out, Therkla's parentage is interesting and funny because it's not the way things usually work.

[Nof]

...But they absolutely all behave like a human society do or once did, even Warhammer orcs.
I can't think to any human society that behave as Warhammer orcs. Really. Even the ones that placed military victories, physical strength as most valuable things and that used the law of the strongest as the normal behavior didn't gone as far as Warhammer orcs did.

The closest would be Gengis Khan's mongols, but they are still far away in barbarian behavior and cruelty, and had cultural aspects not related to war (so much that one generation was enough to start a civilization not based on pillage and destruction of any city). It's the purpose of any fantasy race: being beyond humanity.

Which doesn't automaticaly mean having a behavior that can be summarized in an one line sentence, or not having exception.

[Dacia Brabant]

Orcs are the new drow, all proud warrior-culture shamans in touch with the earth, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin. Likewise all half-orcs are the love children of Thrall and Jaina Proudmoore, hence why there are so many.

Meh, they shouldn't be interfertile anyway. But then humans apparently can reproduce with everything. :smallyuk:

[SPoD]

It's even more interesting (and add far more depth) when people in the setting as us, make instantly this link. Because then, the half-orcs are rejected for something additional to plain xeonophobia. They are tainted with shame, pain, and more important, the society failure to protect its member (one of the first and prime element of a society). As everybody else that personify a society's failure (like homeless people those days), they are ostracized, seen with disgust, ignored, or just plain hated.

It add far more depth to a character than a Beauty and Beast background (when it's not played for laugh, as it is here.)

You mean it added more depth the first 500 times someone did it. Half-orcs have been around in D&D for 30 years or so, that "depth" you're talking about has been done so many times, it's now a cliché.

If a new player came to any table I've ever played at with a half-orc whose driving motivation revolves around shame over his halfbreed heritage and the rape of his mother, all the other players would roll their eyes and mutter, "Not again...".

[yanmaodao]

I never said that I find "Always Chaotic Evil" races compelling. I enjoy the fact that, in the right circumstance, an individual can go beyond of the values its society glorify.

I just don't see any point to have fantasy races that behave exactly as human society did. It's as much lazy writing.

The "Always Chaotic Evil" trope allows for the occasional CG protagonist and individual exception, so your first two statements aren't exclusive. Drow fall under it, with or without Drizz't [sp?]. It's still a bad trope. The idea of a sentient, non-created race being mostly evil (and stupidly evil at that) is hard for me to swallow.

Not entirely sure what you mean by your second statement, but if you mean that fantasy races should not simply emulate a a single past human civilization. Agreed - it's kinda boring at best, potentially racist to whoever's being equated with goblins/orcs/ogres at worst. I especially think it's high time someone broke the whole Dwarves=Scottish thing already. But I disagree that Warcraft Orcs are Mongols. If anything, they seem Caribbean (who at the very least do not fit the stereotypes of a "raider" race), with their voodoo-based magic, with some mix-and-match elements.

But fantasy should still have a culture and motives of their own, which are understandable in their own way, and should be fighting for something more than mindless pillaging, a vague hatred of all innocence, or inexplicably serving some Dark Master who treats them horribly. I mean, yes, you can make a vicious warrior race that's intent on anti-human genocide. But give it a semi-rational basis (revenge for humans having committed similar scale atrocities in the past), and make them believable on an individual basis (most warriors of that race do not want to kill human children, say, and try to fool their overlords by letting them live, while killing their parents without mercy).

[Zeful]

As long as orcs are common and they are easily inter-fertile with other humanoids, due to their pillaging habits it's not unlikely they left lot of half-orcs in their trails... :smallredface:
For most half-orcs, the FATHER is the orcblood. Therkla is an exceptional exception.

Very, very few human males will romance or be able to force themselves on an orc woman.I take it you've never actually read the PHb then. According to the book, half-orcs are not the product of rape.

[Optimystik]

I prefer the mix of "normal" traits with something different- aspiration, in characters like Obould and Liriel Baenre, to characters who have almost nothing in common with their people (Drizzt)

This, this, and more this. I identified far more with Elaith Craulnober, evil moon elf bastard though he was, than I ever did with Drizz't.

[yanmaodao]

Actually, brain fart: the "evil horde race turning out to be noble but still bloodthirsty barbarians" is pretty hackneyed itself, so scratch that last paragraph I wrote. Better yet, make their all-consuming hatred specific - against humans only, say - while making them neutral to friendly to most other races, while showing close relationships with their comrades, family, pets, etc. A sentient, organized people simply wouldn't survive if their modus operandi was violence toward all and everything.

[charl]

I imagine there could be communities full of half-orcs (providing they are fertile) that bread more half-orcs.

[Latch]

As experienced as I am with D&D, I've still missed one thing: are half-orcish people's infertility a guarantee, an anti-guarantee, or in between?:smalleek::smallconfused:

And yeah, they're a small fraction of the population in pretty much every setting, but they're still very common for adventurers, as half-orcs stereotypically adventurer for cultural or emotional reasons. Sorry if I'm reiterating, but still.:smallbiggrin:

[Querzis]

Actually, brain fart: the "evil horde race turning out to be noble but still bloodthirsty barbarians" is pretty hackneyed itself, so scratch that last paragraph I wrote. Better yet, make their all-consuming hatred specific - against humans only, say - while making them neutral to friendly to most other races, while showing close relationships with their comrades, family, pets, etc. A sentient, organized people simply wouldn't survive if their modus operandi was violence toward all and everything.

Honestly the orcs from warcraft dont turn out to be noble but still bloodthirsty, they turn out to have been corrupted by demons and are still very corrupted (though, of course, not as much as fel orcs.) More or less every race in warcraft got people who were corrupted by demons and turn evils, the orc were just the first one to ever manage to fight the corruption, probably because most of them werent corrupted willingly like demons usually did.


This, this, and more this. I identified far more with Elaith Craulnober, evil moon elf bastard though he was, than I ever did with Drizz't.

Totally agree. You know, in the first book, I just kept wondering «ok so Drizzt and his father are different from other drow...why?» Its never explained. He got raised in an evil society, was told to do evil stuff and that doing the evil stuff was the right thing to do but hes still not evil...sorry but that make no sense. A drow whos raised by another species? Yeah sure that one is bound to be different from the others. But when you are raised by absolutely everyone to do only evil stuff, you are obviously gonna do evil stuff. Drizzt is just not a believable character.

And by the way, I would also want to know if half-orc are infertile or not.

Edit: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-orc

Apparently they can create communities of their own so I guess that means they are fertile.

[Dacia Brabant]

But I disagree that Warcraft Orcs are Mongols. If anything, they seem Caribbean (who at the very least do not fit the stereotypes of a "raider" race), with their voodoo-based magic, with some mix-and-match elements.

You're thinking of Trolls. Warcraft Orcs are the Neolithic nomadic warrior-shaman race.


I identified far more with Elaith Craulnober, evil moon elf bastard though he was, than I ever did with Drizz't.

Same here, but then Elaine Cunningham is a better writer.


I take it you've never actually read the PHb then. According to the book, half-orcs are not the product of rape.

And yet they were thrown out of 4th Edition because of the "implied ugly backstory" that they "frankly don't want to dwell on very much".

Personally I don't see how this is even debatable if there's any possibility of sexual attraction and fertility between orcs and humans.* In virtually every setting the two are at war with each other, and this is what happens literally all the time in war in real life. Do some research--or better yet don't, it'll mess you up.

*Amusingly enough Warcraft averts this since orcs think human women are hideous (Thrall's the exception since he was raised by humans) and find even Quillboars, hunchbacked bipedal pigs to be better looking.

[David Argall]

You mean it added more depth the first 500 times someone did it. Half-orcs have been around in D&D for 30 years or so, that "depth" you're talking about has been done so many times, it's now a cliché.
Things become cliche for good reason. They are superior ideas that make sense under the circumstances. When you have the option of being original or being good, go for the unoriginal good.

[Zeful]

And yet they were thrown out of 4th Edition because of the "implied ugly backstory" that they "frankly don't want to dwell on very much".That's the community's fault not the book's. I went and looked it up much. The Half-orc racial entry assumes Humans and Orc are at peace when the conception and childbirth occurs.

[Optimystik]

That's the community's fault not the book's. I went and looked it up much. The Half-orc racial entry assumes Humans and Orc are at peace when the conception and childbirth occurs.

Of course it would say that; demonic rituals and massive medieval weapons are fine, but rape is never cool. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DudeNotFunny)


Same here, but then Elaine Cunningham is a better writer.

Don't get me wrong, Salvatore can make some nice characters - Cadderly and Danica from Cleric Quintet come to mind - but Drizz't was just a paper-thin attempt by WotC to make their very own Wolverine. All he needed was amnesia to complete the picture.

[Corwin Weber]

I feel the need to interject here that while four half-orcs over the course of the storyline so far isn't all that many on an absolute scale....

...it's three more than we've seen of half-elves, who are a pretty common player race.

[Hydro Globus]

The Goblins don't need more love, they have their own webcomic.
That's right! (http://yafgc.shipsinker.com/) :smallbiggrin:

Please link (http://www.goblinscomic.com/d/20050626.html) properly! :)

[Optimystik]

...it's three more than we've seen of half-elves, who are a pretty common player race.

By all the gods, WHY? Half-elves suck!

[charl]

By all the gods, WHY? Half-elves suck!

They have lots tolkienian status fluff?

Although I agree. They suck. Not just stat-wise.

[Captain Six]

By all the gods, WHY? Half-elves suck!

Depends on what you're using them for. Free multiclassing is probably the most powerful racial ability in the PHB and you still qualify for elf prestige classes. If you want a social focused character they're the best as well. If you have unearthed arcana the half-elf paragon is amazing. After taking that and taking the nymph's kiss feat you have +4 to all social checks, and can take the human paragon, put both ability boosts to charisma...well I could go on. Half elves rock at Face.

[Nof]

A sentient, organized people simply wouldn't survive if their modus operandi was violence toward all and everything.
Gengis's Khan Mongols are a conter-example. But although that they managed to survived with a modus operandi based on violence and cruelty toward every body else (and with violence and cruelty used as the base of their own society), it was not the most efficient way. It's why the following generation, led by Kubilai Khan, started to take tribute from cities instead of burning them to the ground, and finished to build an empire. But still, it worked before.

Things become cliche for good reason. They are superior ideas that make sense under the circumstances. When you have the option of being original or being good, go for the unoriginal good.
Exactly. Cliches are bad only when the narrator thinks he can rely only on them and doesn't have to provide good narration to go with, that because of the cliche's strength it will fix every flails in his story, and that the cliche is so know that he doesn't need to develop it because it will works on the readers as soon as they'll read it (which is as much stupid to think that people will laught when you say them "This is a joke".) It's lazy and bad writing, we both agree.

But cliches are good (and maybe the best) foundation to a story, because they are pretty powerful. The Hero's Journey is still used because its themas are so universal, linked to the experiences and feelings of so much people, that you're ensured that you'll have interest and empathy from your audience. It's the same for almost all cliches, at least the ones that survives their hype. But while having good foundations and building crappy walls on it is pointless, trying to build good walls on mud is really risky. Some really talented narrators can do it with success. Not everybody. And even the ones that do that rely far more on the cliche that you can think. Terry Pratchett's dwarfs have depth because he starts to build them as mini-scottish THEN push some of the logic so far that it displays some incoherences that he fixes (which add depth and fun) THEN add some other non-cliche elements to them that makes sense and add them again some personality. He doesn't start by saying "In my setting, dwarf are differents. They don't like beer, they don't wear facial hair, they're not tiny, and oh, what is this thing with gold anyway?"

Subverting cliches as a "take that" without understanding what the cliche is about and why he came popular... It's just as bad and lazy writing. Everybody can take a cliche and turn it other way. It doesn't need any talent. It just fell flat. It's funny, or make the audience think, when it's well done, when you add tension, when you play with people mind. For example, it's really well done in the OotS: the cliche is played straight long enough to the audience to think it's the usual one, then it's subverted by surprise and that makes it funny.
Just saying "Our orcs are not ugly, nor violent, nor cruel" just shows that the writer doesn't understand why, to begin with, humanity needed to populate its story with orcs and orc-like creatures, and why they are so efficient in stories.

[LuisDantas]

since barbaric norse where considered outcast by everyone in Europe, orcs are still a lot more different then humans then elf or dwarf.

I don't follow your logic. Most of the concept of elves, dwarves and halflings is indeed that they are further apart from humans than orc are.

[Greep]

I don't follow your logic. Most of the concept of elves, dwarves and halflings is indeed that they are further apart from humans than orc are.

it is? Elves are immortal hippie xenophobic humans, dwarves are short, greedy, underground, xenophobic humans, halflings are short hippie xenophobic humans, and orcs are green, violent, xenophobic, nocturnal, carnivorous, unintelligent, humans.

[LuisDantas]

it is? Elves are immortal hippie xenophobic humans,

And as such tend to have a lack of empathy with humans and an even greater tendency to fail to act with proper haste when danger approaches.


dwarves are short, greedy, underground, xenophobic humans, halflings are short hippie xenophobic humans,

Both of them with limited repertories. Also, I don't know that halflings are quite xenophobic.


and orcs are green, violent, xenophobic, nocturnal, carnivorous, unintelligent, humans.

Orcs aren't quite xenophobic either, just too violent.

[Greep]

And as such tend to have a lack of empathy with humans and an even greater tendency to fail to act with proper haste when danger approaches.



Both of them with limited repertories. Also, I don't know that halflings are quite xenophobic.



Orcs aren't quite xenophobic either, just too violent.

Hmm guess you're right. I got the opinion that halflings were xenophobic mainly from the shire, but that could just be because it was a small town :)

[Silvermike]

I'm really not sure there's any reason to believe that humans raiding orc villages wouldn't be likely to rape as often as the opposite situation. No matter how subhuman an invading army has convinced itself the enemy is, some degree sexual violence has accompanied virtually every war.

[Nof]

You're right. Of course, that would need some heavy-seasoned warriors (or a setting in which female orcs are at least not totally ugly), but this kind of exactions are often done not for mere pleasure but as an act of war, so it could be expected from humans too.

[Simanos]

Of course it would say that; demonic rituals and massive medieval weapons are fine, but rape is never cool. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DudeNotFunny)
Heh take a look at George Carlin on that issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IT557ZnSJU
http://artists.letssingit.com/george-carlin-lyrics-rape-can-be-funny-7j9zp7k

Seriously though, this issue is caused by our naivety about human cruelty. Life isn't sacred, it's brutal. Look at what animals do. Even humans are brutal. For example some crusaders (around 1200 AD) at some point invented a game, throwing babies in the air and catching them on the tip of their swords. I'm directing this to the guy who said he couldn't picture Orcs killing infants like their cruel leaders ordered and only killing the parents. Sure leaders direct societies, but societies are pretty brutal to begin with, or can be brutal.

Also I think he confused Warhammer Orks with Warcraft Orcs a bit. He thought Nof said Warcraft Orcs were like Mongols, but Nof was talking of Warhammer (and 40k), but these words are easy to read wrong (Warhammer looks similar to Warcraft). For me Warcraft Orcs are like Indians (Native Americans) with Trolls being Caribbean and Tauren hmm, even more like Native Americans. On second thought Warcraft Orcs are probably like Neolithic shamanic tribes that someone said here, or maybe Celts or something. On the other hand Warhammer Orks are damn weird:
"Although in general, orcs are always male and while the Warhammer 40,000 Orks reproduce asexually through a symbiotic relationship with a type of fungus; it has never been specified just how orcs reproduce in the Fantasy setting."
Yeah, right...

This is not an issue up for discussion. It's up to the individual DM to decide how he wants to handle Orcs (and Half-Orcs) in his campaign. Why can't Orc tribes or kingdoms be evil? In real history most of Human tribes, kingdoms or empires were (are?) evil. In D&D worlds probably half of the human kingdoms on the campaign map are somewhat evil usually (varying degrees). So why not Orcs? This is looking like lame political correctness. Most importantly we need to consider the subjectiveness of what is Lawful and what is Chaotic. Well after you consider that, consider this:
Good and Evil are even MORE subjective than that!
I'm not saying they are meaningless concepts, but more often than not it turns out good is us and evil is them... on both sides. If we stop thinking of life as a (grieferless) game, but instead as an evolutionary competition then we will be less condescending on the viability of alternate "lifestyles" instead of labeling them "stupid evil". This is much better than the political correct notion of avoiding to call things evil. Just go ahead and do that, but remember it doesn't mean stupid (same with good) and it isn't derogatory. No more than Chaos vs Lawful has a stupid side. At least we have outgrown that and the move from 3 alignments to 9 shows how "they" felt it wasn't enough separation any more. Law isn't as accepted by society as it used to be and people are more suspicious of their leaders and questioning of laws and religions.
Oh how I long for the Shadows from Babylon 5. Now that was some nice portrayal of a different (read: chaotic evil) species that wasn't self destructive.

[Optimystik]

Depends on what you're using them for. Free multiclassing is probably the most powerful racial ability in the PHB and you still qualify for elf prestige classes. If you want a social focused character they're the best as well. If you have unearthed arcana the half-elf paragon is amazing. After taking that and taking the nymph's kiss feat you have +4 to all social checks, and can take the human paragon, put both ability boosts to charisma...well I could go on. Half elves rock at Face.

I honestly forgot the elf-centric PrCs, but if you're grabbing PrCs how necessary is multi-classing going to really be anyway?


I'm really not sure there's any reason to believe that humans raiding orc villages wouldn't be likely to rape as often as the opposite situation. No matter how subhuman an invading army has convinced itself the enemy is, some degree sexual violence has accompanied virtually every war.

The problem with that premise: female orcs are far, far more likely to be martially inclined than female humans. Rape is much harder when your target isn't part of the fighting force herself.

[hamishspence]

What source are we getting that from?
In Races of Faerun, one of the few books to cover orc culture in detail, female orcs who fight in the main body are very much the exception- most are arcane spellcasters or adepts. or clerics of the minor orc deity Luthic- who is more healer than fighter.

[Nof]

Thank you very much Simanos for your message, really interesting. :)

Optimystik, rape in war time occur when the opposite army is vanquished. The fighting skill of an individual are then pointless: the winning army will do whatever it wants to the soldiers that they capture (including taking prisoner, executing them, mutilating them (like French soldiers did to English bowmen), taking them as hostage, rancon or slave, and of course rape.

[charl]

Thank you very much Simanos for your message, really interesting. :)

Optimystik, rape in war time occur when the opposite army is vanquished. The fighting skill of an individual are then pointless: the winning army will do whatever it wants to the soldiers that they capture (including taking prisoner, executing them, mutilating them (like French soldiers did to English bowmen), taking them as hostage, rancon or slave, and of course rape.

They do the same to the civilians. Historically there haven't been many female soldiers after all, so rape was mostly done towards civilians.

[Mummy king]

I think of orcs as like klingons. Civilised but still violent, they are at their core a race of warriors, but that's not all there is to them.

Also, plenty of half-klingons around!

(Ok, two that I can think of)

[Nof]

Charl, yes. But I answered to a sentence that talked about martial females. So no mention of civils in my message.

[hamishspence]

in The Orc King we find out there was a town of orcs and dwarves living peacefully together for some time, until it collapsed. Literally- was built on poor ground and started subsiding.

[Optimystik]

What source are we getting that from?

Eh, nothing concrete... just orc culture generally. I will point out though that none of the orc females in the second to last panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0551.html) were casters, and the ratio was roughly 1:5 if that means anything.

[hamishspence]

problem is, there is very little on D&D orc culture. though MMIV does fill it out a bit. Clerics of Grummsh are always male. There are maybe some female Adepts of Grummsh. Its strongly patriarchal, though "a sufficiently strong orc female" can carve out a place in the army.

OOTS orcs seem to have a lot in common with ordinary ones, though they can be a little more charming. The orc Iron Golems fans in Origin of PCs were, while aggressive, a lot nicer than most D&D orcs.

[Hydro Globus]

Also I think he confused Warhammer Orks with Warcraft Orcs a bit.

That's not hard to do since Warcraft was meant to be WHF, but they didn't get the rights[citation needed].

[Stormwolf]

Okay - 20 years of DM coming bubbling to the top here: if you play in your own campaign world then you can decide exactly how common half-orcs are, whether they are the product of 'peaceful coexistence' or more ,shall we say, 'forceful conquest'.

Even in Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or any other campaign world, as a DM you aren't bound by law to stick with the book. D&D is a game of the imagination - the rules, the books, the 'off the shelf' campaign worlds merely provide a framework. Fill in the details yourself. Your Faerun doesn't have to be identical to everyone elses. The books are there to provide you with a guide and, as they're written for the most part by people with a great deal of experience, thought and feedback from others, there is a wealth of information to draw on, but if you don't like something, you don't have to stick with it 'just because the book says so'.

You're the DM you decide. As long as your world is consistent and allows for suspension of disbelief, anything goes.

Incidentally in my campaign world a long time ago I had a group of players who were travelling back home from a far off place by sea and to give the idea of a passage of time I had the players do something different for a week: they all rolled up orc raiders from the Book of Humanoids (this was 2nd Ed) and they had a great deal of fun trashing "hooomunn virrages" (it's the tusks that make the pronunciation hard). Inevitably slaves were taken and females were subjected to certain acts which require censorship here. A good time was had by all.

Of course when the PCs got home and found their village in smoking ruins with the wailing populace asking questions like "where were you when we needed you?" they were less happy about the whole thing.

[hamishspence]

true dat.

however, the books are handy when answering questions like "is orc society usually eglatarian with an even split of mena and women in army?"

(generally, no)

and: Do orcs ever trade peacefully with neighbouring societies and interact without violence?

(generally, by PHB, yes, but its not like that for all orc societies, just some)

Races of Destiny raises the possibility of love, or arranged marriage, between orcs and humans.

So, if you want to say "the presumption is, at least some of the time, interaction is peaceful enough for this sort of thing" the books are on your side.

At the same time, the descriptions in MM and MMIV suggest orcs can and do raid, as well.

[Corwin Weber]

By all the gods, WHY? Half-elves suck!

Why not? Stats aren't great, but aren't horrible, they can multi-class, and get infravision.

I don't get the half-elf hate around here. Did something happen in 3.0/3.5 to make them something other than 'humans with infravision that can multi-class?'

[hamishspence]

elves, and half elves, get low light vision, not Darkvision (the new infravision)

Half-elves get very small skill bonus (in same areas as elves) and the low light vision.

Humans get an extra feat, and four extra skill points.

See Pompey early strip (255) for OOTS comment on this.

[Morty]

Even in Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or any other campaign world, as a DM you aren't bound by law to stick with the book. D&D is a game of the imagination - the rules, the books, the 'off the shelf' campaign worlds merely provide a framework. Fill in the details yourself. Your Faerun doesn't have to be identical to everyone elses. The books are there to provide you with a guide and, as they're written for the most part by people with a great deal of experience, thought and feedback from others, there is a wealth of information to draw on, but if you don't like something, you don't have to stick with it 'just because the book says so'.


Besides, even in FR there's a peaceful community of orcs living among humans out there somewhere.

[hamishspence]

which was why I was citing it as main example of "orcs can make peace with humans, sometimes for long periods"

and its consistant with half-orc description in PHB.

[Kish]

I don't get the half-elf hate around here. Did something happen in 3.0/3.5 to make them something other than 'humans with infravision that can multi-class?'
Infravision is gone (whether low-light vision or darkvision is a better analogy for it is debatable, but in any case, elves and half-elves have low-light vision, dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision--oh, and dragons have both). Humans multiclass just like every other race in 3ed.

It's really very different from 2ed.

[hamishspence]

there is the "favoured class" issue, but not everybody uses that. It is the rule though.

[Kish]

there is the "favoured class" issue, but not everybody uses that. It is the rule though.
That's not a difference between humans and half-elves though. :smalltongue: (Between half-elves and elves, yes.)

[hamishspence]

yes, aside from humans and some human-type races, its rare to find Favoured Class Any.

one human subtype race, Illumians, gets FC Any, and special rule- can mutilclass into classes like Monk and paladin, back and forth, with no penalty. None of this "once you have stepped off the path, you may never return"

[hamishspence]

on how common they are- depends on the region. They might average 1% across the world, be much rarer in elf/dwarf lands, or lands far away from orc presence, but much commoner on the frontier.

[Corwin Weber]

elves, and half elves, get low light vision, not Darkvision (the new infravision)

Half-elves get very small skill bonus (in same areas as elves) and the low light vision.

Humans get an extra feat, and four extra skill points.

See Pompey early strip (255) for OOTS comment on this.

Yeah, and I really didn't get the motivation behind that strip either. I'm still thinking it sounds more like the min/max crowd doesn't like them because they aren't uber, and most of the rest don't particularly care one way or the other.

I really haven't played since second edition tho, so I'll concede that the difference could work out to more in practice than it seems like.

[hamishspence]

feats are very important in 3.0 to 3.5: one extra feat makes a huge difference. 4 skill points (and 1 every level up, so effectively human can have one more maxed out skill than anyone else) isn't quite as big, but it is also a noticable difference.

Besides the min-max issue, though, its not hugely important. but a generalist race who is significantly weaker than the other one will draw ire.

[FatJose]

Of course when the PCs got home and found their village in smoking ruins with the wailing populace asking questions like "where were you when we needed you?" they were less happy about the whole thing.

That is sickly awesome! They didn't realize it was their village. Wow! I assume you made sure to describe things so they would only understand what was going in an orc mindset so no meta-gaming could happen.

Ahem

Anyway, Half-orcs seem pretty common for what they are. Atleast as common as the PHB implies. THere were only 3-4 named characters but theres a good handful of NPCs if you look carefully. Belkar just killed one recently. He was balding I think. Needs more half-elves though. Maybe there are but they just look too human to tell in Stick-form or that gag with that one half-elf makes them too ridiculous to re-use.

Just imagine all the fans going on and on about why the next half-elf isn't like the first half-elf with the one elven ear.

[Hydro Globus]

Why not? Stats aren't great, but aren't horrible, they can multi-class, and get infravision.

I don't get the half-elf hate around here. Did something happen in 3.0/3.5 to make them something other than 'humans with infravision that can multi-class?'

In a nutshell, every other race became stronger than in AD&D, for example, humans get a whole feat, while half-elves are a lot like before.
3.5 tried to change this a little by boosting most of their social skills, but +skill ranks are the worst racial bonuses IMHO.
[hr]

Just imagine all the fans going on and on about why the next half-elf isn't like the first half-elf with the one elven ear.

I sure hope all half-elves have one pointy ear. And which one depends on whether the father or the mother was the elf.

[Iranon]

Considering how perfectly functional human societies have been stamped with the equivalent of an Always Chaotic Evil label, I wouldn't have any problem portraying orcs as such to my players.
Doesn't mean I have to think they are that shallow... but since the vast majority of likely player characters will (or should) assume so I'll keep that to myself.
A lot of ridiculously over-the-top source material is perfectly good if I consider some stated facts as something akin to the take of the Great White Man on the Inferior Races.



Separation of player and character knowledge is easy, separation of player and character knee-jerk reactions is a lot harder.
If I want to have a Dark Age campaign, I might treat superstitions as real and some modern takes on morality as evil/ridiculous.

Lusty knight PCs who refuse to hunt on ethical grounds, strongly believe in gender equality, respect for other ethnicities, modern democracy, free religion and so on make for less atmospheric and less interesting gameplay... at least when they are unaware of what deviants they are and the players honestly believe I expect them to gatecrash a witch BBQ just because.

These problems exist in campaigns set on our own world, with members of our own species, with an unbroken moral/cultural tradition that didn't really change fundamentally.
Doing interspecies relations justice in a fantasy setting? Ha!

[Nof]

Thank you very much Iranon for this message, really interesting. :)

[AtomicKitKat]

Rape is the first thing that generally comes to mind regarding Half-Orcs, yes. Probably something to do with Orcs having been stereotyped as Brutish Raiders for 2 and a half editions.:smalltongue: I vaguely recall some other webcomic having a guy who was so drunk he willingly coupled with an Orc woman who was in the midst of raiding his town, and subsequently his Half-Orc child showed up.:smallbiggrin: By the way, Half-Orcs in the Ootsverse only have the lower tusks, vs upper+lower fangs for Full Orcs.:smallwink:

I also recall mention of the PHB Half-Orc woman and "Chyna" in the same breath...:smalleek:

[yanmaodao]

I'm directing this to the guy who said he couldn't picture Orcs killing infants like their cruel leaders ordered and only killing the parents.

I didn't say I couldn't picture Orcs killing babies. I said I couldn't picture a race of sentient, organized people of more or less human intelligence being mindlessly violent and unthinkingly evil. What came later was an example of evil that doesn't descend to cartoonishly depths, though it sort of plays into the whole "noble savage/barbarian" route, which itself gets tired after a while.

No one said Orcs couldn't be Evil. But there's more to Evil than being an ugly brutish thug with no personality and slavish obedience to some evil wizard who views your entire people as expendable. These fantasy tropes are not realistic in their frank depiction of evil, or anything like that. They're silly. A leading reason why a lot of people write off the genre.

Nof, it didn't take the Mongol Empire the half century or so from the establishment of the Khaganate to Kublai's reign to go beyond just burning cities to the ground. Really, if Kublai seemed any different at all, it was because the half-century war with China was finally resolved during his reign, so he could begin, as you said, being collecting tribute and setting up vassal states. But they were doing that long before Kublai in such places like Korea and all over central Asia.


Considering how perfectly functional human societies have been stamped with the equivalent of an Always Chaotic Evil label, I wouldn't have any problem portraying orcs as such to my players.
Doesn't mean I have to think they are that shallow... but since the vast majority of likely player characters will (or should) assume so I'll keep that to myself.
A lot of ridiculously over-the-top source material is perfectly good if I consider some stated facts as something akin to the take of the Great White Man on the Inferior Races.

Well, okay, but I wasn't talking about game campaigns, where DM's often have to simplify things. I'm talking about common fantasy mythos in general.

It is important not to impute too many modern values onto old-timey settings. I do tire of movies like Braveheart (which I otherwise loved) or King Arthur (which I thought was underrated but ultimately forgettable) having heroes who preach "freedom" in their quest to establish monarchies. To say nothing of Troy making Achilles into a bitchy, brooding anarchist. But having well-rounded villains isn't about moral sensibilities, it's about good storytelling.

Look at OoTS. The villain that's obviously more conventionally Evil (Xykon) is played more for comedic value, whereas Redcloak, the one who's actually played straight, is the one who gets listed as an "anti-villain" on TVtropes. Personally, I disagree that RC is an anti-villain*, and I think it's an overused and abused term, but the point is, there's a damn good reason for this. Trying to play straight a villain like Xykon isn't taking a stand against political correctness, it's taking a stand against good taste - and now apply that same principle to evil peoples and nations, not just evil individuals.

* The problem is equating "sympathetic villain" with "anti-villain", which are not the same thing.

[Hydro Globus]

By the way, Half-Orcs in the Ootsverse only have the lower tusks, vs upper+lower fangs for Full Orcs.:smallwink:


That is simply incorrect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html). Sorry!

[Hydro Globus]

So, if you want to say "the presumption is, at least some of the time, interaction is peaceful enough for this sort of thing" the books are on your side.


If you want to say, interaction isn't always peaceful enough, the rules are with you again. If you want to say your half-orc is from the forced marriage of an elf and a dwarf, the rules are... What? :smallsmile:

[Dacia Brabant]

About half-elves vs. half-orcs, it's interesting how the stereotype of their progeneration is so different and I think it speaks to some set ideas we have about sex and gender roles. Rarely do you find a half-elf in fantasy literature who isn't the product of a loving relationship between a human man and an elf woman (rarer still between human woman and elf man) even though the mythological basis for half-elves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf#Norse_mythology) comes largely from stories where force or fraud was involved in the conception. (Tanis from Dragonlance is a notable exception.)

If elves are idealisations of humans, especially with regard to beauty and gracefulness, while orcs are brutish caricatures of humans, particularly the violent urges of men, then this dichotomy kind of makes sense. The orcs get all of our bad traits so when we want to depict that, we get half-orcs, and when we want something nicer we get half-elves.

There's an interesting commentary on this in the game Icewind Dale II:

The Big Bads are two cambions, half-elf half-devil, who after you discover their origins go on a rant about how people mistreated and tried to kill them because of their parentage even when they were children. One of the major good guy NPCs, who is a half-elf half-human and happened to help raise them, says he also didn't have a home among either side of his ancestry. One of the Big Bads sarcastically points out that "yeah he sure had it rough being raised by two parents who loved each other and him." Course they had some sick ideas about forced interspecies breeding so they get no sympathy from me, but the point is half-elves usually have good parentage compared to half-* traditional enemy monster race.

[Stormwolf]

That is sickly awesome! They didn't realize it was their village. Wow! I assume you made sure to describe things so they would only understand what was going in an orc mindset so no meta-gaming could happen.

thanks ;) I honestly thought they'd realise about 5 minutes into the slaughter that there was something about the layout of the place but they were too caught up in playing orcs... pillage and rape are a great distraction apparently, as is torching the village hall. They didn't realise it was their own village because they weren't mapping it. They also couldn't read the names on the stores and "all hoomunns look da same anyways".

It also divested the PCs of some random loot that I wasn't altogether happy they'd acquired and also the rebuilding effort left their pockets emptied. Best of all they got to do the Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas marathon, chasing down the orcs to rescue the prisoners. It may be a tired old trope now but this particular game was almost 20 years ago. It still stands as the favourite campaign that I ever ran thanks mostly to the guys who played it.

[Nof]

Scylfing, as you say, the main purpose of fantastic races is to caricature some human traits (or, more accurately, to give to those moral traits a physical representation). It's why they are so effective in stories: the violent monster is full of muscle, the cruel is ugly, the bestial has animal's members like tusks, etc.

At the same time, the artistic, spiritual creatures have cute traits and thin body.

The idea is to make description easier: your public get immediately your point and that allows you to shorten to long character installation, because most of the audience react the same way to the same physical traits.

So, although this can be subverted (for the laugh, like it was in OotS or to for an Aesop about judging a book on its cover), denying that orcs are made to be incarnation of brutality, and that almost of the interspecied offspring are likely to be due to ugly backstory, just for the sake of it doesn't make sense. And it still doesn't make sense when it's done by a setting's creator.

And yes, when you think about it, lot of half-elvish are likely to be born from unwanted relationship. As I said, in our modern societies, 10% of women faced sexual assaults. And this although we have a far more efficient protecting society that you could have in dark age settings. There is no reason that female elves doesn't have to face the assiduity of some males, and that lot of those stories would end badly. It's logical. But elves are created in a purpose of beauty and purity (although, one more time, it can be subverted, but it need talent to be done in a good way... Terry Pratchett elves are a good subversion, for example). So most people doesn't tend to think to the ugly logic. And assume most of the half-elves are born of a true love.
We have here the seed of an interesting subversion, but it will need a lot of talent to be written well, because it will be hard to do it for the laugh, and doing it seriously, due the subject, is easy to mess up...

Oh, and I forgot to say at this time, but Stormwolf, your story is wonderful. Your players were lucky to have you as their DM. :smallcool:

[Stormwolf]

Terry Pratchett elves are a good subversion, for example).

Actually, Pratchett's elves are a return to more traditional folklore role. Tolkein pretty much redefined elves ;) For anyone slightly interested I'd recommend "The Folklore of the Discworld" that TP wrote with Jacqueline Simpson... it contains a great deal of fascinating folklore of our world as well.

I find this discussion interesting because it's similar to the discussion the Gods had in the making of the OotS world (when the Snarl was formed). We all have our ideas of what the 'ideal' fantasy world should be like. Your idea of elves and my idea are going to disagree... maybe not as much as Zeus and Odin ("Elves should be making toys not casting spells!") but they are different. It's fantasy though, so it doesn't really matter - we have not one prototypical elf on which to base our stories but many folk tales and works of fantasy.

Also as humans on a planet where there is, sad to say, one dominant 'intelligent' species (and I use that term loosely) no real experience of what a truly different race of beings would be like. Given our difficulties in even comprehending the behaviour of other peoples who are of our own species, and our general intolerance towards anything that 'threatens' human existence it seems difficult to believe that anything other than a perpetual state of war would exist, but hey, I'm just an old cynic ;)


Oh, and I forgot to say at this time, but Stormwolf, your story is wonderful. Your players were lucky to have you as their DM. :smallcool:
Thanks again :)

[Iranon]

Not only might the average elf consider the average human about as attractive as the average human does the average orc (this sentences contains too many averages for the average reader)... there's also even greater lifespan issues, some mystical connection of all elves that humans would miss out on (importance varies with setting/author) and apparently larger differences in physiology (activity cycles, sleep vs. reverie).

So yes, I don't consider half-orcs any more problematic than half-elves, despite orcs tending more towards Evil than humans. Realistically, those might be gigantic considering the problems average people have with atypical humans (e.g. those exhibiting various types of autism, bipolar disorder etc) and it's a miracle different species understand one another so well in D&D.

Given the amount of fudging, I can imagine almost everything. From rape being the default to orcish lovers having a glowing reputation for passion, force of personality and sheer endurance (at least between the more adventurous humans).
Those aren't even mutually exclusive, and concerned parents will want to lock up their children either way :)

[Devils_Advocate]

According to the DMG, half-orcs make up 3% of the population of a typical integrated community (with lots of traffic and interaction with other races and places). Half-elves make up 5%.

A big part of the reason that they're so common is that they're assumed to be capable of breeding with each other and their parent races, so mixed blood doesn't just disappear. So a typical half-orc really shouldn't have one pure-blooded human and one pure-blooded orc as parents. It should be understood that there probably are almost no "pure blooded" persons in the context of a standard D&D setting. By default, races in D&D are breeds, not species. So you get things like the mongrelfolk, with ancestors from at least seven races.

(Obviously there are a lot of possible combinations of mixed ancestry, most of them not statted up. We can assume that half-elves and half-orcs are the only common ones, but there's no way that e.g. halfling/gnome hybrids are less common than mongrelfolk. Most likely the designers didn't want to bother covering every possible combination, and really, can you blame them?)

Regarding what orcs should be like: What I wanna see is a setting that has relatively peaceful spiritual nature-worshiping orcs, and bloodthirsty raider orcs, and, what the hell, disciplined greedy mercenary orcs, under the theory that different orc tribes should have different cultures instead of all being the same. You know, like how separate groups of humans have different cultures?

That's not to say that they shouldn't all have something in common. Like, you could say that all orc tribes are at least somewhat primitive and uncivilized by human standards ('cuz, let's face it, they're not too bright), or that they're way more prone to violence than humans are. But they shouldn't have everything in common, either.

The whole one mololithic racial culture thing only really makes sense when there only is one united group of a given race. Like, if there's a single nation of dwarves in one stretch of mountains, and that's it, then it makes sense for there to be pretty much just one dwarven culture. Significantly different subraces all sharing the same culture seems pretty implausible, though.

I guess that it's workable for non-human races but not humans to each have a single monolithic culture if each non-human race is united under a single pantheon of racial deities, even when subgroups are separated by distance. Boring and unoriginal, but workable.

[Querzis]

Regarding what orcs should be like: What I wanna see is a setting that has relatively peaceful spiritual nature-worshiping orcs, and bloodthirsty raider orcs, and, what the hell, disciplined greedy mercenary orcs, under the theory that different orc tribes should have different cultures instead of all being the same. You know, like how separate groups of humans have different cultures?

Thats already done. Look at warcraft orcs. Between shamanistic orcs like Thrall or the frostwolf clan who seek peace, the incredibly violent and cruel fel orcs, the honorable and proud but agressive orcs of the Warsong clan, the ancient clan who fought the demons corruption like the Whiteclaw clan, the sneaky orcs who fight dirty from the Shattered Hand clan or the intelligent and manipulative bastard from the Shadow council.

The only thing I can think off thats true with pretty much every orc is that they are serious, proud and can get angry pretty fast (even Thrall in the novel lord of the clan get overcomed by rage sometimes).

[Dacia Brabant]

So, although this can be subverted (for the laugh, like it was in OotS or to for an Aesop about judging a book on its cover), denying that orcs are made to be incarnation of brutality, and that almost of the interspecied offspring are likely to be due to ugly backstory, just for the sake of it doesn't make sense. And it still doesn't make sense when it's done by a setting's creator.

Yeah, which is why we're seeing the move away from half-orcs in the latest D&D edition, since it's easier to omit something that's uncomfortable but all-too-understandable than it is to deal with it in a fitting, mature way or even to just whitewash it. Of course it all depends on what the intent of the setting is, and if that intent is accessibility to as wide an audience as possible (which I'm pretty sure is what WotC wanted with 4e) then potentially disturbing references are going to be dropped.

On the other hand it's possible to go too far in the other direction too.


And yes, when you think about it, lot of half-elvish are likely to be born from unwanted relationship. As I said, in our modern societies, 10% of women faced sexual assaults. And this although we have a far more efficient protecting society that you could have in dark age settings. There is no reason that female elves doesn't have to face the assiduity of some males, and that lot of those stories would end badly. It's logical. But elves are created in a purpose of beauty and purity (although, one more time, it can be subverted, but it need talent to be done in a good way... Terry Pratchett elves are a good subversion, for example). So most people doesn't tend to think to the ugly logic. And assume most of the half-elves are born of a true love.
We have here the seed of an interesting subversion, but it will need a lot of talent to be written well, because it will be hard to do it for the laugh, and doing it seriously, due the subject, is easy to mess up...


It's actually a lot higher than that, but yeah we are a violent species and the effects of this are felt more and more as societies weaken and lose their ability to protect their weaker members (women and children primarily, but also the infirm).

Likewise the valuing of these members as equals to the warrior-class or skilled laborers, or even as anything other than property, only happens when societies are strong and peaceful for a long time--and the more that those values embodied by the idea of elves are cherished and respected by people. We want them for our own, but we respect them as they are so taking them by force is anathema, hence many consumers of this genre don't want to see humans being belligerent toward elves (though there are exceptions, and it's easier to write those when the elves are mean arrogant jerkfaces--and even easier when they're just as destructive as anyone else, but then that means they've been subverted into something else).

Maybe if orcs were written in such a way that they also embodied things that we admire in ourselves, maybe you'd see a lot more loving orc-human couples with happy half-orc children running around. Thrall and Jaina are gonna have to get busy. :smallwink:


Actually, Pratchett's elves are a return to more traditional folklore role. Tolkein pretty much redefined elves

Well...the first recorded stories we have about elves are in the Sagas, and they're not all that different from Tolkien's (especially with regard to magic and beauty), but even at that we still don't know for certain what the original understanding of elves was really like since none of the myths about them are extant, so I'm hesitant of anyone who says such-and-such depiction is more accurate. The best we can do is infer that they were sort of minor fertility gods or ancestral spirits through their association with Freyr, Alfheim and the various Aelf-kings and Aelf-queens that show up in historical records.

That said, I don't know much about Pratchett's elves so I probably shouldn't comment too much here.

[Nof]

Thank you very much Scylfing and Devils_Advocate, your messages brings interesting new point of views. :)

As for Pratchett's elves, they use something called glamor to look like we wish to see them (or worst, as we wish to see ourself). They are described as humanoid cats (not physically, but in the behavior): most people aren't able to see cats as the selfish, cruel hunter they are, that only care for things and people when they can gain immediate rewards of them, that hunt whatever moves in order to "play" with it in a way that would normally seem abject to everybody...
But because they are so cute, they love so much to be petted, and make so lovely nosies, most people love them. And aren't aware that the majority of their relationship with their cat is one serving willingfully the other (which act like a spoiled brat) for no real reasons.

Stitch all those traits on an humanoid and you have Pratchett's elves.

Lot of folklore superstition (like the habit to hang horseshoes above doors) are then linked to elves and explained (for example, they are disturbed by iron due to their sensibility to magnetism), and lot of the situations and descriptions are played, as usually for Pratchett, for drama and laugh.

Oh, and about the willing to drop ugly backstories from DD4 and still keeping the whole section about how to chop limbs and kill people... Well, let's just say there is a large value dissonance here. :smallyuk:

[yanmaodao]

Regarding what orcs should be like: What I wanna see is a setting that has relatively peaceful spiritual nature-worshiping orcs, and bloodthirsty raider orcs, and, what the hell, disciplined greedy mercenary orcs, under the theory that different orc tribes should have different cultures instead of all being the same. You know, like how separate groups of humans have different cultures?

Definitely. Actually, though, the way I like to think of Orcs is something more along the lines of Goths (the Germanic tribes, not 15-year old Hot Topic rats who write bad poetry), in the sense that they'd lack a true culture of their own. For the most part, they'd sublimate from the more civilized nations they conquer. So, a spiritual orc would worship the same god(s) as humans, and voila! No more nature-worshipping Native American-ish Orcs, which I've never liked.

And you know, good Orc tribes fight for good kingdoms out of principle as well as living space in the hinterlands, evil Orc tribes fight for loot and bloodlust for evil kingdoms, et cetera et cetera.

[Dacia Brabant]

Oh, and about the willing to drop ugly backstories from DD4 and still keeping the whole section about how to chop limbs and kill people... Well, let's just say there is a large value dissonance here. :smallyuk:

Heh, well that's because violence = good, sex (including sexualized violence) = bad. :smalltongue:

Interesting stuff about Pratchett's elves by the way. I can kind of see how that would fit in to the more dangerous/seductive side of the folklore, especially the fey.


the way I like to think of Orcs is something more along the lines of Goths ... in the sense that they'd lack a true culture of their own. For the most part, they'd sublimate from the more civilized nations they conquer.

What about Old Norse paganism?

[Hydro Globus]

Goths (the Germanic tribes, not 15-year old Hot Topic rats who write bad poetry)

Erm, a totally offtopic question please!

What makes them goths? I mean, why do they have the name of an old European tribe?

[Nof]

What makes them goths? I mean, why do they have the name of an old European tribe?
Someone with better knowledge of history would complete or correct me, but:

During renaissance, the barbarians were seen as totally uninteresting, without any bit of civilization, culture, or art. The only sources of art that were glorified were the ones coming from the civilized ones: Greeks and Romans (chose in reaction of the biblical art, which were before that the only well seen) Then some renaissance artists started to interest themselves to barbarians, like goths, celts or norses, mainly in the purpose of exploring some other subjects, far less consensual (and maybe because they liked to provoke). They started to paint about them, writing poems, and such. Some started to call themselves "goths" (which was, for sure, a provocation in an intellectual society that glorified culture and sophistication), and the movement took this name.

It was later reinforced by the nationalist movements in Europe, when countries started to slowly fade from the "bit of lands and men ruled by one king" to the "men united by a same culture and history" definition. Some countries started to look for a such history, and started to promote the glorification of said barbarians. For example, northern countries started to encourage researches and essays about norses, especially the ones describing them like, in fact, people with a rich mythology, a complex social stature, etc. and not the mindless pillagers that Christian monks (our main source of written texts about them) described (not without a reason: they were one of the most liked target for norses raiders, which used lot of psychological warfare against them).

I don't know how precisely then this renaissance artistic and historical movement gave its name to the actual one, but due to the similarity of name and purpose, I can definitly the two linked in some way.

Heh, well that's because violence = good, sex (including sexualized violence) = bad. :smalltongue:
Yeah, as I said, it's cultural dissonance. It's sad that books published and distributed in the whole world contains such twisted censorship due to one nation.

[Underground]

The example barbarian in the PHB (3.x), a Halforc, looks very heroic and kickass to me. The MM, on the contrary, has Orcs which are optimized for extremely ugly looks.

But the Orcs in the Comic look very different from what I've seen in the Monster Manual. They are just human size. They have pointy teeth, green skin, and obviously arent too bright. But thats it already.

The Lineage 2 Orcs look okay-ish, especially compared to what other people do to Orcs. In fact, the female orc warrior and the male orc shaman look pretty decent, almost too normal again. The male orc warrior and the female orc shaman however both are disappointing - the male orc warrior is a mountain of muscles and the female shaman has a really ugly voice.

I personally think you either should allow mixed races altogether, or disallow them completely. Only doing Halfelves and Halforcs is a bit hard to understand. Why are there no Dwarf/Gnomes and Gnome/Halflings, for example ?

[hamishspence]

I remember seeing a very funny poster on the subject- basically, that humans will reproduce with practically anything, and showing one human, surrounded by many half-human children of great variety, and their non-human parents.

it would have been more consistant with the rest of the templates, if Half-elf and Half-orc had been templates instead of races, however, the list of templates that can be applied to any humanoid race is pretty fair.

Half-troll, half-fey, half-elemental, half-fiend, half-celestial, half-vampire, half-dragon.

Compared to the half-human races:

Half-elf (3 variants), half-orc, half-ogre, half-giant (probably)

and the mostly human, trace Other races:

genasi, tiefling, aasimar, feytouched, chaond, zenthyri, mechanatrix, shyft

and the part Other, part non-human humanoids:

Fey'ri, tanarukk, wispling, maeluth

and at least 1 Trace Other template that can be applied to any humanoid (Draconic)

Suggests that while there is a bias in favour of humans, there are also plenty of non-human hybrid races as well.

[Dacia Brabant]

Why are there no Dwarf/Gnomes and Gnome/Halflings, for example ?

They already did dwarf-gnomes in earlier editions, they're called Gully Dwarves and they're so incredibly stupid they can only count to 2. Yeah, the less said about them the better.

Besides, I think half-human is the most common combination because humans are so popular as a player race. But yeah, like hamish said, there are a lot of other options out there for non-human races/mixed races, and a lot of them are really gross. :smallyuk:


I don't know how precisely then this renaissance artistic and historical movement gave its name to the actual one, but due to the similarity of name and purpose, I can definitly the two linked in some way.


I think that's on the right track, but you'd have to fast-forward a few hundred more years to the Age of Romanticism when Gothic took on the sense of "Dark and Mysterious" via the Gothic Novel, part of a counter-culture that persists into today with Goth culture.

I'm not real knowledgable of when the contemporary Goth movement started (I think around 1980 with the changes happening in the Punk scene) but if you look at a lot of the fashion and music and interests of today's Goths it's kind of a throwback to the Gothic culture in 19th century England. Once again Goth is the glorification of the Outsider as with Gothic, Neo-Gothic, Gothic Revival, etc. in earlier centuries, but it has much more in common with the Gothic Novel and Gothic Romance than those older artistic and historical movements.

Funny how 1600 years of history changes "Gothic" from barbarian tribes to a style of architecture and art to the Byronic hero to kids in Hot Topic t-shirts listening to the Cure. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

ah, yes, forgot about Half-farspawn. Character has tentacles and is in general very creepy.

Mechanatrix is part-human- part inevitable (or possibly part Modron, its not clear) Basically, cyborgish.

[Voyager_I]

Half-Orcs are the result of a coupling between a Human and an Orc, or at least the descendants of such a pair that still have a substantial amount of Orc blood left in them.

The frequency and "circumstances" of these couplings will depend on the nature of the campaign. If your DM plays Orcs as a functional civilization on friendly terms with a bordering human nation, then you can expect them to be prevalent and well-integrated into society.

[Puppeteer]

Half Giant?

Death to the men! Death by snooze snooze!

http://bp2.blogger.com/_xNZv5GYGy1k/RvoqmFoeO-I/AAAAAAAAAY4/94GhnMoW_eI/s1600-h/amazon.jpg

[Nof]

I remember seeing a very funny poster on the subject- basically, that humans will reproduce with practically anything, and showing one human, surrounded by many half-human children of great variety, and their non-human parents.
Not sure it's one of them:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3028/120459065683gx3.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/107/1205769391555ag2.jpg

I also have other of this kind but not for public display. :D

[SSGW Priest]

I would like to see a campaign setting where the more traditional player races are all dead and the world is ruled by the more monstrous races. Where the basic civilization is all filled with Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs and the like.

Give the goblinoids some love for once.

If you make it they will come... :thog: :thog: :thog: :thog: :thog: :thog: :thog:

[SSGW Priest]

For most half-orcs, the FATHER is the orcblood. Therkla is an exceptional exception.

Very, very few human males will romance or be able to force themselves on an orc woman.

Whose to say the human males were not pillaged?

[SSGW Priest]

They already did dwarf-gnomes in earlier editions, they're called Gully Dwarves and they're so incredibly stupid they can only count to 2. Yeah, the less said about them the better.

Actually, it was one, two, many. Which amusingly is the noun plural format for Arabic. Arabic nouns can be singular, dual, or plural. As opposed to English with its one/many noun format.

[Zeful]

Not sure it's one of them:
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3028/120459065683gx3.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/107/1205769391555ag2.jpg

I also have other of this kind but not for public display. :D
It's the second one.

Andersson did a few of those, like Dragonlayer, Dear Daughter (http://andersson.elfwood.com/dear_daughter.jpg.html), and a lot of other similar images.

And I think you have to link those, because both have some form of (artistic) nudity, and I'm not sure if it's entirely board appropriate.

[Nof]

Whose to say the human males were not pillaged?
They could have been. More usually by male orcs.
Rape in wartime occurs for two reasons: primary as an act of war ("soiling" or "purifying" the hated group, or terrorizing it), secondary as a cheap way to liberate some sexual frustration.

In almost all societies, it's frowned upon females to liberate easily their sexual frustration, so except if orcs are liberal about this (why not, but I don't see it being the norm without some explains and it would have other and large impacts in the social organization and relationships of the orcs tribes). So I doubt they would be in for this reason, but anyway...

If the first reason has always been (and is still) encouraged by authorities in our human worlds, the second one has with the same consistency been frowned upon (in the same way that unauthorized pillage was often sentenced with death).

Mainly because when your war objective is to conquer land, you don't want to pillage it to much.

It's also a good way to show who is in the charge (the one that decide what is done with prisoners and loots without being contested has obviously a firm grip on its troops... It's why Clovis executed a soldier for a simple broken vase: it was a deny of its authority),

And finally, sexual frustration is a good way to encourage your soldiers to battle in a more frenzy way. In the same way, it's common (at least in France, I don't know elsewhere) that in our world sport managers forbid to their sportsmen to have sexual relationships days before a competition: they'll need all their hormones. Yes, you don't them to much sexual frustration because that can easily degenerate (it's why campaign brothels were and are still tolerated) , but you still want some (tolerated, not authorized... spend to much time in it and you'll have problems with your hierarchy).

So, we can say that sexual assault for self-pleasure is, in war-time, not the main reason, even in a less organized army like orc raiders (in fact, the authority's privilege is even more likely to be exacerbated in a such group). So if you want to do this in war-time, it's for the "breading reason" or the "terrorizing" one. The first one is out of question in a female invader-male victim situation: the male will not bear the unwanted child. The second, well... I thing that being assaulted by a male orc is more frightening than by a female one.

So for this reasons, I don't see child born of an ugly backstory being from unwanted relationships with a female orc and a male human, albeit exceptionally (and it will need a little more work than conventional one).

And I think you have to link those, because both have some form of (artistic) nudity, and I'm not sure if it's entirely board appropriate.
Thank for the advice, I said as you did because you know better this board than I did, but I don't see any nudity in the pictures.
Are you talking about the breasts? If so, it's weird to forbid them on this board. :smallfrown:

[Zevox]

Thank for the advice, I said as you did because you know better this board than I did, but I don't see any nudity in the pictures.
Are you talking about the breasts? If so, it's weird to forbid them on this board. :smallfrown:
He most likely is talking about the breasts. And actually it's not at all weird, considering the Giant is an American. As I understand it, France (and Europe in general) don't care much about censoring female breasts, but in the US, it's standard to do so just as much as it is with genitals.

Zevox

[Simanos]

Actually, it was one, two, many. Which amusingly is the noun plural format for Arabic. Arabic nouns can be singular, dual, or plural. As opposed to English with its one/many noun format.
Wow, if deliberate that was a really offensive move back then. Probably not deliberate though.

I'm with Nof on the Orc females "pillaging" human males. It's implausible. For all the politically correctness BS we are fed women and men just aren't equal. There are differences, in potential, in mental faculties, in physical attributes. We have equal rights not equal skills. I'm not saying one is superior to the other (or which), I'm just saying we're different (enough). How would an orc female raider "rape" a human male? Probably by sticking things in his rectum or cutting off his penis. Getting herself an unwanted (unless she wants it?) pregnancy would be stupidness of epic proportions for a raider. Not even Crystal would do that... well, would she? :p

[Prak]

Well... there's the fact that, compared to human women, orc women are gullible, and compared orc women, human women are weak, so... there's a lot of very reprehensible people(considering a fair amount of that is the entire orc race) that would... partake of activities that would naturally produce half-orcs a fair amount of the time...


Wow, if deliberate that was a really offensive move back then. Probably not deliberate though.

I'm with Nof on the Orc females "pillaging" human males. It's implausible. For all the politically correctness BS we are fed women and men just aren't equal. There are differences, in potential, in mental faculties, in physical attributes. We have equal rights not equal skills. I'm not saying one is superior to the other (or which), I'm just saying we're different (enough). How would an orc female raider "rape" a human male? Probably by sticking things in his rectum or cutting off his penis. Getting herself an unwanted (unless she wants it?) pregnancy would be stupidness of epic proportions for a raider. Not even Crystal would do that... well, would she? :p
you realize women do actually rape men in real life, right?

(and damnit, I can't find any citations... whatever...)

[Nof]

Yes, but not during war-time raids.

[charl]

Yes, but not during war-time raids.

The only reason for that is that female soldiers never really appeared until late 20th century after rape had become an unacceptable war crime in the Western armies that accept female recruits. Who is to say they wouldn't if they had been allowed in armies before that?

[Nof]

As I said before, rape was allowed (and is still) only for some reasons in this context, and those reasons doesn't make any sense for female soldiers.

[Greep]

The only reason for that is that female soldiers never really appeared until late 20th century after rape had become an unacceptable war crime in the Western armies that accept female recruits. Who is to say they wouldn't if they had been allowed in armies before that?

really, as an above poster, it's just that man =/= woman

Men simply have more testosterone and thus aggression. Rape is very aggressive. Sure some women rape, but I'm guessing the ratio is like 50:1 man:woman rape (total guess). Almost definately 10:1 at least, though. And as nof said, females raping in war time makes even less sense because it's like taking the gene pool of the enemy.

Now I guess you can argue that all orcs probably have a bit more testosterone(ugh biological science + plus fantasy = lol) but... heck this is just getting totally rediculous. Why are we discussing the science of orcish rape?

[Nof]

Almost definately 10:1 at least, though.
From what I remember (feel free to correct), in our actual society, it's between 10:1 and 20:1 of sexual aggression from women to men. It's hard to find precise numbers because, due to the topic, it's difficult to have confessions and even more official judgments, because while it's really, really hard for a woman victim of those events to speak about them, it's even socially harder for men.

But we talk here about peacetime aggressions, that are caused from totally different factors than war-time or raiding-time.

Oh and Greep, some female hormones generate as much aggression as testosterone. Don't take that women aren't biologically prone to violence. It's just that this kind of violence, in war-time, wouldn't make any sense.

[Greep]

Oh and Greep, some female hormones generate as much aggression as testosterone. Don't take that women aren't biologically prone to violence. It's just that this kind of violence, in war-time, wouldn't make any sense.

Heck women even have some testosterone if I remember correctly (not a biologist), I think it's just more pronounced in men is all.

[Nof]

It's a stereotype, reinforced by social usages and muscular mass (it's easier to resolve your problems with violence when you're the stronger one in the area, and this one is rarely a woman). Both gender are biologically exactly as prone to violence that the other. They usually don't express it in the same way in our society, although that when you gather women only large groups and make them live isolated, you end to find the same violent comportments than in male only groups.

[Greep]

It's a stereotype, reinforced by social usages and muscular mass (it's easier to resolve your problems with violence when you're the stronger one in the area, and this one is rarely a woman). Both gender are biologically exactly as prone to violence that the other. They usually don't express it in the same way in our society, although that when you gather women only large groups and make them live isolated, you end to find the same violent comportments than in male only groups.

Wow, I did not know that O.O

[Khanderas]

... Now I guess you can argue that all orcs probably have a bit more testosterone(ugh biological science + plus fantasy = lol) but... heck this is just getting totally rediculous. Why are we discussing the science of orcish rape?
It is an intresting subject, after all it has nothing to do with Monks.

Female orc rape on human males would problebly not be that common in the immediate wake of war. However, while orcs are more inclined to the martial professions, they do need food. Captured lands needs caretakers, and that means slaves, or atleast serfs of non-orc races as a base working class.
Warband rides in, demands food and shelter for the night, from a small human settlement deep in orc lands (who are, and may have for generations, worked to supply the orc military class). Some sexual gratifications later they move on, and the orc female returns some months later to deliver the mongrel offspring in the care of the father.
To put it bluntly.

Well that is one, in my mind, plausable way of having orc mother, human father dilemma, while "keeping" the rape. Yay me or something.:smallconfused:

[charl]

Actually if you think about it it makes some manner of sense "taking the enemy gene pool" in this case. It could very well be beneficial to orcs to have some human intelligence in their tribes.

[Nof]

It doesn't work this way. The first thing to make people wiling to exact violence against a group is to make them thinking that this group is inferior. There isn't sense for raiders or enemy armies to wish to receive their victim's traits.

The Khanderas's hypothesis makes more sense, except that almost all society frowns against female sexual gratification. So it can happen in a really twisted orc society, or just happens occasionally due to female bypassing society's boundaries, and both in human regions under orc domination for a long time.

[Prak]

someone else's new take on orcs (from another boards mature section, be forewarned.) http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1292.0

[Khanderas]

It's a stereotype, reinforced by social usages and muscular mass (it's easier to resolve your problems with violence when you're the stronger one in the area, and this one is rarely a woman). Both gender are biologically exactly as prone to violence that the other. They usually don't express it in the same way in our society, although that when you gather women only large groups and make them live isolated, you end to find the same violent comportments than in male only groups.
Pretty much. 4 sisters here, one of wich is by far the most violent and angry person I have ever met. Well that used to be true, she is a nice person now.

Good thing for everyone involved that, while she would happily punch anyone who got her mad (and that was easy) she was a very scrawny girl, thin enough to be thought anorexic (except she really wasn't, just her build).
Before mentions of PMS, this lass had anger issues every day of the month.

Glad I finally found a woman (Nof) who has the same opinion about this as I.
Had an argument with my dad that basically boiled down to "men are naturally more violent then women, always". I replied "well that is more due to men having more muscle mass, I am certanly not more violent then my sisters are". And he claimed I was. Oh My God. :smallmad:
He firmly believed that, and nothing I said could convince him otherwise. In the end I had to just drop it. My father is a very stubborn man.

[Khanderas]

The Khanderas's hypothesis makes more sense, except that almost all society frowns against female sexual gratification. So it can happen in a really twisted orc society, or just happens occasionally due to female bypassing society's boundaries, and both in human regions under orc domination for a long time.
Well she could develop a taste for human's since she, as the conquerer, can tell the human to pay attention there.... there and there. And if he tires too quickly there will be beatings.
Unlike the male orcs, who in this scenario, would be more intrested in the quantity of female orcs done in an evening.

[Dacia Brabant]

As I said before, rape was allowed (and is still) only for some reasons in this context, and those reasons doesn't make any sense for female soldiers.

Um, it sadly makes a lot of sense when you consider that many female soldiers serve as prison guards where terrorizing inmates is all too often a fact of life. See Abu Ghraib or various Concentration Camp Aufseherinnen. Then again, the sorts of tortures they used would not have involved intercourse so yeah, not the same sort of thing as when men do it, but that's due to our differences in equipment more than anything else.


The Khanderas's hypothesis makes more sense, except that almost all society frowns against female sexual gratification

What about the Drow? They're matriarchal and pretty darn debauched.

You are right though about invaders/conquerors not necessarily wanting to take on the genetic traits of their victims, but then there are evil fantasy races like Yuan-ti or Tanar'ri that thrive on creating half-bred servitor castes, though that would likely be done in the standard way.


Actually, it was one, two, many.

Are you sure? I seem to recall them saying "two" while holding up more than two fingers.

Didn't know about the singular/dual/plural distinction in Arabic though, that's interesting.

[Nof]

What about the Drow? They're matriarchal and pretty darn debauched.
I can't think to Drow society without thinking "lol" immediately afterward. But even if their society would make any sense outside the female domination fantasy (with leather and snake-whips!), it would still be an exception, and I have hard time to figure the average orcish society running as a drow one.

[Dacia Brabant]

I can't think to Drow society without thinking "lol" immediately afterward. But even if their society would make any sense outside the female domination fantasy (with leather and snake-whips!), it would still be an exception, and I have hard time to figure the average orcish society running as a drow one.

I didn't say it was a plausible society. :smalltongue:

[Khanderas]

I can't think to Drow society without thinking "lol" immediately afterward. But even if their society would make any sense outside the female domination fantasy (with leather and snake-whips!), it would still be an exception, and I have hard time to figure the average orcish society running as a drow one.
As phil foglio says in the strip in Dragon (What's new, with Phil and Dixie). "Chaotic evil society as envisioned by the recently divorced". (problebly with the mandatory whipping of males).
I have less a problem with females dominating (with the main goddess severly playing favourites, including female drow being physically stronger then male drow), but the infighting... There should be noone left....

I don't think the orc society would work like the drow one, I would think that the male orcs dominate the female orcs, by size alone if nothing else. And the female orcs would, as warriors, repay the favour on the male humans.

[Simanos]

Admit it Prak, you're just secretly fantasizing about being raped by a woman :smalltongue:
(hey if they can use that excuse for women wanting to be raped then I can joke about it reversed on a man):smallcool:
The problem is anatomical (and leads to social). Imagine a man who rapes his dozen of female slaves and gets em pregnant to spread his "bloodline". A woman can't rape her 12 male slaves and get pregnant 12 times at once herself. She only gets pregnant once. So my guess is if there were women in a rampaging army they would "rape" men in other special ways (cut off their penis, insert thing in their rectum, degrade them, etc). Look at what women did in Abu Graib prisons (USA Vs Iraq). If she actually forced intercourse the man would probably be far less terrorized (he could even brag about it later in some few cases LOL).
It is not impossible to think of a man terribly not wanting to have sex with some raider woman (perhaps unreasonably high fidelity to spouse, or vow of abstinence), but it is rather improbable.

I agree with the following:
"But we talk here about peacetime aggressions, that are caused from totally different factors than war-time or raiding-time." , Nof
"females raping in war time makes even less sense because it's like taking the gene pool of the enemy." , Greep

EDIT:
Since someone brought up the Drow, I remind you that they are vastly different to the Orcs and we are discussing the Orcs here. We're also discussing procreational rape (the cause of Half-Orcs) and not mental rape or torture. I find it very hard to picture Drow women raiding a village and going from hut to hut raping (in the usual way) men. They would take some slaves and "rape" them in many ways later, but the point of this thread is how Half-Orcs originate. The Drow women "raping" humans in whatever way would NOT be making (at least not keeping) half-breed babies from their slaves except in the most obscure, probably plot-driven, situation.

[Wardog]

The Khanderas's hypothesis makes more sense, except that almost all society frowns against female sexual gratification. So it can happen in a really twisted orc society, or just happens occasionally due to female bypassing society's boundaries, and both in human regions under orc domination for a long time.

Given that orcs are (often) Chaotic Evil barbarians with +4 strength modifiers, I'd imagine that they would be "bypassing society's boundaries" pretty much whenever they had the opportunity.


On the other hand, if you want consensual half-orc origins, is a voluntary human/orc pairing really that different from a elf/human pairing? After all, humans are bigger, uglier, and musclier than elves. And the alignment difference will often be worse for human/elf pairings. (Humans are neutral on average, elves are "usually" CG, while orcs are only "often" CE).

To us in the real world, an orc might seem disgustingly ugly and inhuman (depending on the setting/art-work, and personal tastes), but in a world where they actually exist, they wouldn't seem so bizzare, and if they were common enough, they might not even seem ugly.


Consider also that in the real world, in countries that were raided by barbarians (vikings, Goths, Huns, Mongles, etc), those barbarians were viewed as behaving as brutal savages (little different to how orcs are often portrayed in fantasy), often despised for centuries after, and in some cases actualy described as looking hideously disgusting.

However, in the coutries that originated these barbarians, or were conquered and settled by them rather than merely pillaged, they tend to be viewed in much better light, and their leaders (Atila, Ghengis Khan, etc) often viewed as national heroes.

So potentially I can imagine that in a land that was conquered and settled by orcs, regardless of how much "unpleasent backstory" occured in the initial conquest, generations later orcs and half-orcs (and people with a bit of orcish blood but would count as humans from a rules perspective) would not be considered ugly and an embarrasing reminder of unpleasent history, but as normal or even attractive.

[hamishspence]

not only are orcs only Often CE, but according to MMIV the majority of exceptions are CN. So refuting any assumptions that most exceptions are NE or LE.

[Kish]

The Khanderas's hypothesis makes more sense, except that almost all society frowns against female sexual gratification.
I've never seen any indication that that's true of D&D societies.

[hamishspence]

well, the Exalted Deeds definition does state

"being a good character doesn't necessarily mean remaining a virgin, and Vows of Chastity and the like are rooted in the concept that giving up something that is good and healthy can have spiritual effects, not the theory that sex is evil. That said, relationships should be respectful"

so, in that sense, the rules seem to say enjoying it is, in fact, a good thing.

[Zolem]

There is a listing in the DMs guide of typical racial distribution percentages for a typical city.

Human 70%
Dwarves 10%
Elves 5%
Halflings 5%
Half Elves 4%
Gnomes 3%
Half Orc 1%
Other 2%

If you'll notice, OTHER has a larger ercentage than Half-Orcs. It's explained taht not only is it rare for one to be birthed, but they are usualy killed by the human parent at birth because they think of it as a monster.

Looking at it this way, in a city of 10,000 individuals 7,000 are human, 1,000 are Dwarves, 500 are Elves, 500 are Halflings, 400 are Half-Elves, 300 are Gnomess, 200 are OTHER, and 100 are Half-Orcs. They are actualy rather uncomon, however it does say that half orcs often become adventurers in order to work out their agression or find companions who wll accept them. So out of those 7,000 humans maybe 50 go on to be adventurers (hey, it's not like the party is the only one that does it) and of those 100 Half-Orcs another 50 adventureres apear. So while Half-Orcs are by no means common they are one of the races most likly to become adventurers.

[Nof]

Given that orcs are (often) Chaotic Evil barbarians with +4 strength modifiers, I'd imagine that they would be "bypassing society's boundaries" pretty much whenever they had the opportunity.
The strength modifier doesn't count, because the whole society has it... It would for an orc in an human society, but I talk about orc society here.

I've never seen any indication that that's true of D&D societies.
Because most people doesn't even realize it is. Or why. But it's the same than for the commander/troops thing that was discussed before: the one that is able to control the other's sexual urges have great power of them, and, in fact, it quickly become a symbol of this power and then even more taboo. It's why sexuality is one of the first thing codified by societies, even the liberal ones, and more a society become oppressive, more it codify (and deny access to) sexuality.

As our current society is based on ones that oppressed women (lefting behind things like cell-glass today, or still a really bad look given by most on sexuality active women... See the topic in which Jenny were multiple time named like a slut for her behavior in the comic), the default fictional society follow the usual familial and societal pattern we know. And in the way orcish societies are usually depicted, female are given the exact same stereotype you'll find in today society (or worst). In all logic, those stereotypes are enforced in the same way, and then it's logical to believe than female sexuality is treated in the same way.

So yeah, we can have an orcish society that is liberal about female pleasure. But that would have an impact on its social organization, because society point of view about this come from such organization. I never seen a such thing (and the setting creators that tried to build social organization depicting female and male equally treated without any stereotype, assumed role, etc. usually failed badly, seeming to believe you can change one factor in social organization without having an impact on the others, giving birth to society absolutely illogical or that wouldn't stand for more than a generation without tradition changing lot of things in a more ugly way... It's (quite) easy to have a free community (lot of our civilizations started like that), it's really hard to build it on traditions that will ensure the freedom will not quickly become removed.)

[Dacia Brabant]

Because most people doesn't even realize it is. Or why. But it's the same than for the commander/troops thing that was discussed before: the one that is able to control the other's sexual urges have great power of them, and, in fact, it quickly become a symbol of this power and then even more taboo. It's why sexuality is one of the first thing codified by societies, even the liberal ones, and more a society become oppressive, more it codify (and deny access to) sexuality.

And yet female Player Characters are allowed every bit the same freedom as male PCs are, at least in recent editions of D&D, which extends to sexual freedom in games where that's an issue. Yes I know that PCs are supposed to be exceptional but we'd have to presume the existence of societies that allow for these exceptions to arise, and furthermore there are settings such as Forgotten Realms that flat-out state that certain sexual taboos that we might hold in the real world aren't relevant to what people do in the game world. Whether that's realistic or not I don't know but this is fantasy we're talking about.

And don't forget about Sparta.

[David Argall]

From what I remember (feel free to correct), in our actual society, it's between 10:1 and 20:1 of sexual aggression from women to men.
The official statistics [which often enough do have only a casual relationship with reality] says those arrested for rape are 99% male, with a major portion of the women arrested merely accomplices of some male. One can argue that those raped by a woman are notably less likely to report the crime, but there is pretty much only speculation to back up such an idea.

[Nof]

Whether that's realistic or not I don't know but this is fantasy we're talking about.
Fantasy settings still have to be realistic, or at least realistic enough for suspension of disbelieve. If someone create a new society, he has to ensure it tickles, and if he changes something as fundamental as social role of men and women, he has to ensure that he also carries the consequences of such changes, or there will be some eye rollings.

And don't forget about Sparta.
I'm not sure what you want to say, but Sparta was definitely sexually oppressing its women (let's not talk about stranger ones).

David Argall, sexual aggression doesn't limit itself to rape, and yes, you gave the reason: the same way that women usually doesn't complain to authorities one or two generations ago, or that child molesters were a taboo few decades ago, abused men usually doesn't report it.

[krossbow]

See, perhaps i'm strange, but i NEVER had the thought of orc rape pop into my head for any of my half orc characters; thoughts never even occurred as the probable state.

I just always thought
"Hey, here's a big town on the edge of wilderness; towns need lots of big dumb help, and orcs need lots of booze and food. Therefore, some orcs will be willing to work in the town for gold and alchohol."
and just assumed that, given how 90% of commoners are going to be pretty ugly themselves (just go out and look at normal society if you think people look all great and pretty), and found it logical for a child or two to be born somewhere along the lines.



Though, i personally find that Dungeons and dragons orcs wobble a bit as far as they look. Sometimes they just look like a child's gorilla drawing, othertimes they look like mongol humanoids with fangs and upturned noses

[Dacia Brabant]

Fantasy settings still have to be realistic, or at least realistic enough for suspension of disbelieve. If someone create a new society, he has to ensure it tickles, and if he changes something as fundamental as social role of men and women, he has to ensure that he also carries the consequences of such changes, or there will be some eye rollings.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but we are talking about D&D here. The game was accused of sexism back in the old days, so to overcome that perception and draw in female players, egalitarianism became the order of the day.


I'm not sure what you want to say, but Sparta was definitely sexually oppressing its women (let's not talk about stranger ones).

I was thinking in terms of the Spartan women having equal divorce rights, being able to take multiple partners, and, going along with that, able to own large sums of property in their society. Of course there was oppression, there was oppression of both men and women under their laws, but they did have very high levels of equality between the sexes especially for their time, which could be used as a model for a society in a fantasy setting.

[Mollusk]

....cliches are good (and maybe the best) foundation to a story, because they are pretty powerful. The Hero's Journey is still used because its themas are so universal, linked to the experiences and feelings of so much people, that you're ensured that you'll have interest and empathy from your audience.

But that's because real myths have a quality which hackneyed tropes lack. Clichés are soulless... but the difference is difficult to quantify. Still, when Hamlet dies, there's a sense of completion; the story could not have ended any other way. When a story with similar themes ends up with the hero surviving and getting the girl, most of us feel a deep (and highly suppressed) call to ask for a refund on the movie tickets.

Okay, when you saw the latest Indiana Jones movie and the Ancient Incans are revealed as extradimensional aliens (not to mention Ernie Reyes Jr. was once again cast as some expendable extra in a high budget film) weren't you like, what the f...? :smallfurious:
Also, between good writing and bad writing is quite a bit of mediocre writing, where you'd get up and say, "you know, I could totally re-write that and make it work."

I'm thinking about something David said earlier in this thread. Now, if an aspiring writer's choices are between writing derivative hackery and writing pseudo-avant garde gibberish, I say, better write nothing at all. What I take him to mean by "going for the unoriginal good," however, is that there's still a lot of room for life under clichés. The trick is to un-cliché the cliché by breathing that spark of life into the character.

In which case, yes players, go for the 'misunderstood all my life hated my father and now I'm leading my people to a better future half-orc'. But breathe some soul into it instead of making him yet another xerox copy of some copyrighted entity. Mind you, you'll have a tougher time un-Thralling Thrall than had you chosen the 'closet transsexual my-parents hooked up after the war half-orc' trope.

[Shraik]

They are pretty common. Though, I find the overall fact that there have been more half-orcs then gnomes odd. Funny, but odd none the less

[Neithan]

Fantasy settings still have to be realistic, or at least realistic enough for suspension of disbelieve. If someone create a new society, he has to ensure it tickles, and if he changes something as fundamental as social role of men and women, he has to ensure that he also carries the consequences of such changes, or there will be some eye rollings.
Realism in fiction is irrelevant and often even not desireable. As you kind of said yourself: Consistency is the thing a beliveable world really neeeds.

Regarding the Half-orcs: Why has nobody mentioned the Dominic Deegan orcs? The look orcy, can be really nasty bastards, can also be really badass, and maybe it's just me, seem to be really good looking. With such orcs around, I'd wonder why there aren't even more half-orcs around. :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

But that's because real myths have a quality which hackneyed tropes lack. Clichés are soulless... but the difference is difficult to quantify.
It mostly consists of Professors of Literature pounding into young minds that they are something besides cliches, and usually distinctly barebone cliches as well. [Paper was expensive in the old days, too much so to allow much in the way of subplots, among other improvements.]


Still, when Hamlet dies, there's a sense of completion; the story could not have ended any other way. When a story with similar themes ends up with the hero surviving and getting the girl, most of us feel a deep (and highly suppressed) call to ask for a refund on the movie tickets.
Actually, when we see "Hamlet", and we do quite often, we are quite pleased by his survival. Hamlet died because it was a cliche of Shakespeare's day that tragedy was something noble and uplifting, much superior to mere comedy [which was defined as everything else]. So they ended the play with everybody dead. That cliche is not dead, but it is out of fashion, and so "Hamlet" triumphs in modern stories.



if an aspiring writer's choices are between writing derivative hackery and writing pseudo-avant garde gibberish, I say, better write nothing at all.
Definitely not the best choice, if only because you don't get paid for blank pages. And there are people who like either [or both] derivative hackery or pseudo-avant garde gibberish. That there is better around does not mean the 2nd best is useless.
But the cliche is cliche because it is a "truth". When you try to be original, you frequently just end up being wrong.



Realism in fiction is irrelevant and often even not desireable. As you kind of said yourself: Consistency is the thing a beliveable world really neeeds.
Well, we might say that in fiction, you don't need realism, you need "realism". It is what the reader is willing to believe. Consistency too is merely an aspect of that. It can be abandoned rather casually when the reader does not care about it.



The game was accused of sexism back in the old days, so to overcome that perception and draw in female players, egalitarianism became the order of the day.
An attempt that has pretty much been a total failure. We had girls in the good old days and have girls now, but this is still a very heavily boy game.



sexual aggression doesn't limit itself to rape,
True, but rape is a measure that is less subject to random whims.
A few decades ago, Denmark legalized just about all types of porn, with [to the distress of the blue-noses] the result being a massive drop in sex crimes. When one looked closer, the drop was almost entirely among the lesser crimes, not the serious cases like rape [not that this did the critics of porn much good since they wanted to blame porn for the crime, not find it was irrelevant]. It is assumed that the "drop" resulted from a lot of people deciding these minor misdeeds were not worth the bother of reporting. However, for our purposes, the moral is that the figures on these lesser deeds are subject to tremendous flux and make it hard to determine bedrock rates.


the same way that women usually doesn't complain to authorities one or two generations ago, or that child molesters were a taboo few decades ago, abused men usually doesn't report it.
But what is the evidence of a differential here? It is easy enough to say there is a difference, but one needs evidence that it actually exists.

[Neithan]

My homebrew setting has a matriachal country of humans. Men work the fields, build the buildings and go to war, and women manage food, health, clothing and children education.

The only difference is, that property is fully inherited (not split) by the eldest daughter instead of the son. This really makes for a truly interesting nation and society.
All landowners are women and politics have always been made by those who control economic resources. So all the lords of the country are actually women and every major estate (an extended family of about 4 to 8 sisters and doughters with their husbands and children) is headed by a matriarch.
For the line of succession it's important to know who is really a child of whom. But since you know that the mother is really the mother at birth, there's no legal reason to install something like mariage. The eldest daughter inherits everything, no matter who the father is. On the other side, this means the daughters stay at the estate and the men are married off to other clans. So men either have to get a wife and live at her families estate, or stay at the estate of their mother or aunt.
If they get kicked out, there's really only the temple or the army to make a living. These are also the only two ways a man can get power, but though there are more than 9 men for every women in the army, almost all commanders are female. Getting kicked out is really a problem, because nobody will take you in, and there's not really much a man can do against it. Every estate has between half and two dozens of strong men, who all happen to be completely devoted to their women, for exactly that reason. Social station for men is really mostly depedend on how much they are nice and supportive towards women.

Of all the parts of this world, this society is surely the most interesting and fascinating, that I will surely develop more quite a good deal. If women often have no problems to get their husbands on a leash in a male-dominated society, imagine how successful that would be in a society that actively supports that and where success of men depends on exactly that? :smallbiggrin:

[Corwin Weber]

I suspect we're over analyzing this a bit here.

In a society where humans and orcs can more or less peacefully coexist overall..... the existence of half-orcs can be pretty easily explained:

Beer was invented two thousand years before the timeframe that such societies are set in.

[Neithan]

I didn't really pay any attention to this forum since two days ago, and I think that every thread here starts to overanalyze somewhere around the 5th or 6th posting.

[Dacia Brabant]

So men either have to get a wife and live at her families estate, or stay at the estate of their mother or aunt.
If they get kicked out, there's really only the temple or the army to make a living. These are also the only two ways a man can get power, but though there are more than 9 men for every women in the army, almost all commanders are female. Getting kicked out is really a problem, because nobody will take you in, and there's not really much a man can do against it. Every estate has between half and two dozens of strong men, who all happen to be completely devoted to their women, for exactly that reason. Social station for men is really mostly depedend on how much they are nice and supportive towards women.

So, what's preventing the bigger, stronger and more militarized males from rising up and taking power from the womenfolk?

[Neithan]

The majority that has been raised to be happy with the society they have been raised in. They love their families and won't just let some savages destroy their homes. And even the most battle hardened warriors won't defy their own mom! :smallbiggrin:

[Decahedral Tofu]

You know, I didn't have much of an open opinion regarding orcs and other goblinoids until I read the Orcs: First Blood books. They present a reasoning that most people neglect: they have a culture. I've looked a lot more into that culture and found that, in many ways, the goblin cultures draw parallels with the Native Americans of the northern US and Canada. Being 1/8 Native American, I found myself developing a lot of respect for goblinoids, which is also what caused me to ultimately stop using alignments in D&D.

So, when considering half-orcs/half-humans, bear in mind that both their Orc blood and their Human blood is full of culture, and it's entirely possible for that individual to be fully immersed in both. One of the important things to remember is that, in a case of love, people put aside immense differences in culture and accept one another. Not convinced? Find the flash video series There She Is!! and see if you still don't think that two people from different cultures can learn to love each other. Remember also that the assumption that any assumption that an entire race or species has the same capacities. Just because the average IQ of a culture is 85 doesn't mean that there aren't people in that culture with IQ's of 180. Most Native Americans living in the various Great Plains reservations don't finish high school. People still grow up out of that culture and earn PhD's. So I guess I'll close with this thought: There are orcs with 18 intelligence. There are elves with 6 dexterity. There are cats with 0 ranks in jump, climb, listen, spot, and hide. There are halflings who are 5'8". There are women who can bench press 200lbs. There are Chimpanzees who know how to wire a radio and there are humans who can't tie shoes. So go ahead and make a Half-Orc bard with 8 strength; you'll feel better about yourself when you do. Go ahead and make him a vegetarian as well.


EDIT: It should be noted that the Orcs: First Blood books are extremely graphic; definitely not something for kids to read.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm not sure what you want to say, but Sparta was definitely sexually oppressing its women (let's not talk about stranger ones).

At least they were allowed to partake in sports, and practice with weapons.
(Both habits considered perverse by visiting Athenians. They also thought the habit of Spartan women to dance in very short skirts (doing a kind of jumping dance where high jumps slamming your lower legs and heels against your own buttocks were a main part) as even more perverse. Oh well. I know that if I got a choice between Athenian men doing sports or Spartan women dancing, I know what I would pick :smallbiggrin:)

[Decahedral Tofu]

So, what's preventing the bigger, stronger and more militarized males from rising up and taking power from the womenfolk?

In politics, charisma will always prevail over strength. Ten weak men (or women) can easily overpower even the strongest of warriors.

Before you ask questions like that, think: why didn't the stronger, tougher, leaner slaves overthrow the white law in the southern states in the 1800's, when slaves made up a far greater portion of the population than slaveowners. It's all about influence. Even the most charismatic leaders of slave rebellions couldn't organise the slaves enough to actually overcome the slaveowners. It took a bigger army with more influence and 600,000 dead Americans to overcome slavery in the US, which is a far more oppressive situation that a matriarchal society. Next time you see a woman, ask her if she feels particularly oppressed by our generally patriarchal society. Go ahead and recommend that she go ahead and recruit a girl's rugby team and overthrow the oppressive male regime. It shouldn't be hard.

[Greep]

In politics, charisma will always prevail over strength. Ten weak men (or women) can easily overpower even the strongest of warriors.

Before you ask questions like that, think: why didn't the stronger, tougher, leaner slaves overthrow the white law in the southern states in the 1800's, when slaves made up a far greater portion of the population than slaveowners. It's all about influence. Even the most charismatic leaders of slave rebellions couldn't organise the slaves enough to actually overcome the slaveowners. It took a bigger army with more influence and 600,000 dead Americans to overcome slavery in the US, which is a far more oppressive situation that a matriarchal society. Next time you see a woman, ask her if she feels particularly oppressed by our generally patriarchal society. Go ahead and recommend that she go ahead and recruit a girl's rugby team and overthrow the oppressive male regime. It shouldn't be hard.

heh, someone should do that and call it

"Womanpower:taking over man-dominated rule via rugby"

Btw I love the thread progression:

Half-orc rarity -->female orc rape -->inequality of the sexes in political power

[Assassin89]

*stabs politics*

The rarity of half-orc depends on two things.
1) the distance between orcs and humans
2) the relationship between the two races

[Neithan]

Which goes for practically every genetically compatible cultures.

[Decahedral Tofu]

You know, I'm not posting stupid things (in my opinion), but I feel stupid right now because I keep making ridiculously long posts saying things that other people say using one or two sentences. How inefficient! Anyway. The last two posts made before this pretty much summarise the entire discussion:
cross-breeding depends of proximity and nature of interaction.

[Dacia Brabant]

The majority that has been raised to be happy with the society they have been raised in. They love their families and won't just let some savages destroy their homes. And even the most battle hardened warriors won't defy their own mom! :smallbiggrin:

So they're all mama's-boys, gotcha. I guess that's better than being ruled by a spider-goddess and her legions of BDSM priestesses.


In politics, charisma will always prevail over strength. Ten weak men (or women) can easily overpower even the strongest of warriors.

Only because the many allow them to have that power over them, but even going along with what you say here, why couldn't some of the more intelligent and charismatic men in Neithan's society use their persuasive skills to get the male warriors to listen to them more than they listen to their matrons?


Before you ask questions like that, think: why didn't the stronger, tougher, leaner slaves overthrow the white law in the southern states in the 1800's, when slaves made up a far greater portion of the population than slaveowners. It's all about influence. Even the most charismatic leaders of slave rebellions couldn't organise the slaves enough to actually overcome the slaveowners. It took a bigger army with more influence and 600,000 dead Americans to overcome slavery in the US, which is a far more oppressive situation that a matriarchal society.

I know I shouldn't get into this because real-world politics is banned on this forum, but I have to point out that slaves in the southern United States just before the Civil War, when the institution was at its absolute height, numbered no more than one-third of the populace there (4 out of 12 million), and most slaveholding households only could afford to keep a few slaves. The big plantations you're talking about were also well-armed and defended by their state's militia, which is the largest reason why slave revolts in the U.S. didn't succeed until after the Civil War got into full tilt.

And none of this works as a defense of Neithan's women-rule/men-serve system anyway since the plantation owners were largely male and the social system was patriarchal.


Next time you see a woman, ask her if she feels particularly oppressed by our generally patriarchal society. Go ahead and recommend that she go ahead and recruit a girl's rugby team and overthrow the oppressive male regime. It shouldn't be hard.

If there were hundreds of thousands of women's rugby players who were fully armed and militarized, if all the hard physical labor and warlike career paths were filled with millions of daddy's-girls in a patriarchal society where men manage the households through persuasiveness, appeal to tradition and to love/guilt, then maybe this would apply. Instead, it's just a false comparison.

[Talya]

Much love for Warcraft Orcs.

[Greep]

If there were hundreds of thousands of women's rugby players who were fully armed and militarized, if all the hard physical labor and warlike career paths were filled with millions of daddy's-girls in a patriarchal society where men manage the households through persuasiveness, appeal to tradition and to love/guilt, then maybe this would apply. Instead, it's just a false comparison.

^This. I actually wonder if there would be some sort of coup d'etats if the army became a strong majority of women.

Also as to why slaves didn't uprise in the U.S.: guns. I think slaves actually DID start to uprise anyways except a repeating rifle got invented which made it not worth the effort. See the "south park"-ish cartoon in "bowling for columbine".

Edit: whoo! now we get to add slave rebellions to this topic. I don't mind the thread derailing since it seemed to happen at page 2 ;)

[Mollusk]

The last two posts made before this pretty much summarise the entire discussion:
cross-breeding depends of proximity and nature of interaction.

i guess we've somehow segued into providing some sort of mechanism for the prevalence. :smallsmile:

as dreadful as it sounds, the history of our own civilization does favour "rape of conquered people / second class citizens" as a highly probable explanation of why there might be a relatively large percentage of half-orcs in a setting containing inter-breedable orc and human populations.

i can't remember where in this post the conquest rape was mentioned first, but we shouldn't limit ourselves in thinking that the orcs would be the aggressors in these interactions. a human kingdom might conquer many tribes of orcs and subjugate them. in that environment, orc women might be raped as a sign of conquest. i agree with Nof and Simanos about the improbability of females initiating coital rape during wartime conditions; some female soldiers on the winning side might inflict humiliation and psychological torture on their prisoners instead, as Scyfling pointed out was the case in Abu Ghraib and in some concentration camps. afterwards, if humans began to own orc slaves, its well imaginable that many half-orcs might appear in slave populations.

given a populist uprising and enough time, this scenario could provide an entire nation of half-orcs, possibly with negative orc-body-image consciousness and ruled mostly by 'passes-as-human' looking celebrities.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

This has probably been said before, but I'll toss this in since this is how I play orcs and half-orcs in my games...

There is a mix of how half-orcs come to be, some by force (rape), some by mutual consent.

Where there are wars, there are campaigns of terror, in which orcs are neither better nor worse than humans. Human warriors are just as likely to enjoy the "spoils of war" as would orcs. Sad, but true.

In other places, humans and orcs trade and work along side each other against even greater threats, including starvation. Orcs and humans can and will work together to secure supplies to survive the harsh winters. A strong orc hunter, well versed in providing for the dinner table may not have much difficulty in finding a mate who will look past his rough exterior to find the man who can provide for her chiildren.

Orcs can and do enter service, military or otherwise, in human ruled areas where strong backs and arms are needed. While they may not be trusted in every area (old prejudices die hard), they will be trusted enough to be allowed to mingle with the rest of the city. Again, a good provider, a hard worker and a loving partnership can be found between humans and orcs as well as humans and elves.

Oddly enough, it's implied but never outright said that all the humanoid races can interbreed successfully... Human/dwarf, halfling/elf, half-orc/gnome couples could all find love with each other, but you never see the offspring of those relationships...

[Decahedral Tofu]

Oddly enough, it's implied but never outright said that all the humanoid races can interbreed successfully... Human/dwarf, halfling/elf, half-orc/gnome couples could all find love with each other, but you never see the offspring of those relationships...
Definitely. If you look at brownies (the mythical creatures), the original concept for them was a half-breed of goblins and elves.

I think a big part of why Goblinoids are viewed as inherently evil, stupid, ugly races is because of the Lord of the Rings series of books, as well as their Prequel The Hobbit. However, an inherently evil society is fairly impossible. Evil habits do not maintain relationships; look at how destructive Xykon is of his own living assets. If not for Redcloak's vague sense of value for his troops, Xykon wouldn't have any living assets (not that he needs them). An inherently warlike society is very reasonable. A society that practices live sacrifice is also reasonable. A society that hates another society is inevitable. However, if every Goblin in a goblin society, or even a significant portion of the goblins in a goblin society, were actually evil, as a state of being, there wouldn't be any society, law, or organization. Goblin tribes would be an impossibility. Reproduction would be a result of lust. As defined by the popular opinions, evil is usually primal. AKA people do evil things mostly because they cannot suppress their animal instincts. As they are popularly depicted, goblins are not evil: they are different. What we're looking at here is just glorified racism.

[Neithan]

But we did and do have lots of evil nations in the real world. Though it's true that not everyone there was or is evil, but I think about every genocidal maniac that comes to my mind had children who fared reasonably well.

[Simanos]

At least they were allowed to partake in sports, and practice with weapons.
(Both habits considered perverse by visiting Athenians. They also thought the habit of Spartan women to dance in very short skirts (doing a kind of jumping dance where high jumps slamming your lower legs and heels against your own buttocks were a main part) as even more perverse. Oh well. I know that if I got a choice between Athenian men doing sports or Spartan women dancing, I know what I would pick :smallbiggrin:)
Where are you getting your info from? Doesn't seem right.

Anyway, in answer to a woman dominated society you could look at Dune. The Bene Gesserit are women guiding the path of humanity, but do it from the background and in long term planning, using their minds mostly. On the other hand the Honored Matrons (BG from the scattering, evolved) have evolved into a front line dominance of their society and they do it mostly with sexuality (combat skills too). So in fiction either can work, but also nothing lasts for ever. In real life even less. I'm fairly sure in a non-magical (arcane or divine) society, matriarchy will soon fall, provided the sexes are similar to homo-sapiens. Mentally rather equal (though favoring the male in some aspects that are more relevant to power), physically quite unequal favoring the male, aggression and power-lust again favoring the male. I would say that women's social skills would build a better, more productive and fairer, society, but men's dominance won't allow them.


Back to the issue of Orcs, you guys need to understand this is a choice of the setting and/or the DM. You don't get to decide or call others' version stupid. You want to make Orcs more like "aliens" (of the humans in funny suits trope) instead of an evil race from standard fantasy lore (it's NOT only Tolkien). Fine, if you think you can make a better setting and story that way. That just makes them as another human tribe with green skin, barbaric culture, different gods and stuff. I'm sure you could just forgo the green skin and make them human barbarians (not the class) instead ala 13th Warrior. No one would see much difference in the story.

In the real world there is no good and evil. There's animalistic, warlike, peaceful, etc, but who's to say what's good or evil? In fantasy settings, the existence of Gods, good and evil is rather well defined. In reality you get selfishness and selflessness and even then selflessness is usually species or "friend" specific. Life simply is brutal.

[Scarlet Knight]

In the real world there is no good and evil. There's animalistic, warlike, peaceful, etc, but who's to say what's good or evil? ... In reality you get selfishness and selflessness and even then selflessness is usually species or "friend" specific. Life simply is brutal.

I'm afraid to answer this loaded statement.:smallsigh:

I think most major religions will disagree with you. There is Good and there is Evil. Evil disguised as Good is still Evil just disguised as Good. Good misunderstood as Evil is still Good just misunderstood.

Not to jump backward, but weren't the Amazons a female society that pillaged to gather males slaves for reproduction?

[Greep]

I'm afraid to answer this loaded statement.:smallsigh:

I think most major religions will disagree with you. There is Good and there is Evil. Evil disguised as Good is still Evil just disguised as Good. Good misunderstood as Evil is still Good just misunderstood.

Not to jump backward, but weren't the Amazons a female society that pillaged to gather males slaves for reproduction?

To the amazon question: in Greek mythology yes :)

and meh... the further you go into good and evil it just boils down to semantics. Everyone has their own idea of it.

[David Argall]

weren't the Amazons a female society that pillaged to gather males slaves for reproduction?

Yes & no. The myths vary widely. This sounds like the Diodorus version. In Herodotus, the relationship is quite voluntary. Strabo had it that Amazon society was entirely female, with "visits" to another town to produce new Amazons.

Homer, Hellanicus, Herodotus, Hippocrates, Diodorus and Strabo are among the writers who mentioned them, and disagreed about most things about them.

The two most extensive links I can quickly find were...

http://www.stoa.org/diotima/essays/wilde.shtml

http://www.corrieweb.nl/amazon/historica2.htm

[Corwin Weber]

Where are you getting your info from? Doesn't seem right.

Anyway, in answer to a woman dominated society you could look at Dune. The Bene Gesserit are women guiding the path of humanity, but do it from the background and in long term planning, using their minds mostly. On the other hand the Honored Matrons (BG from the scattering, evolved) have evolved into a front line dominance of their society and they do it mostly with sexuality (combat skills too). So in fiction either can work, but also nothing lasts for ever. In real life even less. I'm fairly sure in a non-magical (arcane or divine) society, matriarchy will soon fall, provided the sexes are similar to homo-sapiens. Mentally rather equal (though favoring the male in some aspects that are more relevant to power), physically quite unequal favoring the male, aggression and power-lust again favoring the male. I would say that women's social skills would build a better, more productive and fairer, society, but men's dominance won't allow them.


Back to the issue of Orcs, you guys need to understand this is a choice of the setting and/or the DM. You don't get to decide or call others' version stupid. You want to make Orcs more like "aliens" (of the humans in funny suits trope) instead of an evil race from standard fantasy lore (it's NOT only Tolkien). Fine, if you think you can make a better setting and story that way. That just makes them as another human tribe with green skin, barbaric culture, different gods and stuff. I'm sure you could just forgo the green skin and make them human barbarians (not the class) instead ala 13th Warrior. No one would see much difference in the story.

In the real world there is no good and evil. There's animalistic, warlike, peaceful, etc, but who's to say what's good or evil? In fantasy settings, the existence of Gods, good and evil is rather well defined. In reality you get selfishness and selflessness and even then selflessness is usually species or "friend" specific. Life simply is brutal.

The irony here is that the barbarians in 13th warrior weren't human.....

It's a deconstruction of Beowulf with Grendel and his mother being replaced by a surviving tribe of Neanderthals.

[One_Wolf]

When I ran a campaign, half-orcs were fairly rare but not unheard of. However, they were feared.

Orcs pillaged many towns and villages and were quite barbaric. It was common that women were sexually assaulted by orcs but it was uncommon for one to become pregnant if they survived the tragedy. Generally when a half-orc was born it was killed. So for a half-orc to exist there had to be extenuating circumsrances.

For example: In one case a half-orc was born in secret assisted by a cleric. But the mother upon seeing the child was horrified and almost immediately thereafter killed herself. The cleric believing all creatures were born neither good nor evil, took the child and raised him alone. . .(There is a lot more to the story but you get the point)

Therefore, half-orcs were rare. When one was seen the population did not differentiate between half-orc and orc thus there was horrible discrimination and fear. Shopkeepers would either not sell, but sometimes would give discounts out of fear. But often the half-orc would be run out of town before even getting to a shop. It all depended on the size and strength of the town. Thus many half-orcs were rogues or barbarians living on the land and/or stealing what they needed to survive.

Any PC who decided to play a half-orc, had to deal with this discrimination as did the rest of the party because they travelled with him/her. It made for some interesting situations and dynamics between party members.

-One Wolf

[Simanos]

I'm afraid to answer this loaded statement.:smallsigh:

I think most major religions will disagree with you. There is Good and there is Evil. Evil disguised as Good is still Evil just disguised as Good. Good misunderstood as Evil is still Good just misunderstood.

Not to jump backward, but weren't the Amazons a female society that pillaged to gather males slaves for reproduction?
Be afraid. Be very afraid! /evil laughter
Seriously though, I said in the real world, religions deal with a fantasy not reality :smalltongue:


The irony here is that the barbarians in 13th warrior weren't human.....

It's a deconstruction of Beowulf with Grendel and his mother being replaced by a surviving tribe of Neanderthals.
Interesting, though it doesn't negate my point. They are perhaps pre-historic homo-sapiens or Neanderthals, but still pretty close to humans and yet they are so much like Bugbears aren't they? I guess that is a trope subversion.
And still what I said about Orc culture-type being a setting/DM choice, but usually an evil race rather than an "alien" race in most "fantasies", stands.

One Wolf, that's an overdone theme/story, but it's still good cause it's classic.

[Beans]

I have a question about the half-orc issue here.
We all know how lovably simple Thog is, aye? He's a halfie.
But so are Therkla and Bozzok. And we don't see them childishly clamoring for ice cream and hugs.
So did Thog just inherit orc intelligence (or lack thereof) while Therkla and Bozzok didn't?
There's a good chance that I'm missing something here; if so, could someone shine some light on it?

[Simanos]

I have a question about the half-orc issue here.
We all know how lovably simple Thog is, aye? He's a halfie.
But so are Therkla and Bozzok. And we don't see them childishly clamoring for ice cream and hugs.
So did Thog just inherit orc intelligence (or lack thereof) while Therkla and Bozzok didn't?
There's a good chance that I'm missing something here; if so, could someone shine some light on it?
They rolled better dice, or had different dump stats :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

I have a question about the half-orc issue here.
We all know how lovably simple Thog is, aye? He's a halfie.
But so are Therkla and Bozzok. And we don't see them childishly clamoring for ice cream and hugs.
So did Thog just inherit orc intelligence (or lack thereof) while Therkla and Bozzok didn't?
There's a good chance that I'm missing something here; if so, could someone shine some light on it?
In D&D, being a Half-Orc means a -2 penalty to your Intelligence score. In Thog's case, intelligence was his dump stat, meaning he either put the lowest value he rolled into it (if his stats were determined by rolling dice) or he didn't put any points into it (if his stats were determined by point buy). This results in him having an abysmal intelligence score.

Therkla and Bozzok, however, plainly did not use intelligence as their dump stat - they may have rolled better or used a better roll for that stat, or may have spent points on the stat, again depending on the method hypothetically used - so in spite of their race's -2 to it, they're reasonably intelligent.

In short, they all inherited their race's intelligence, Thog just didn't offset it in any way while Therkla and Bozzok did (or Therkla and Bozzok were just born smarter, if you prefer a phrasing that doesn't involve any geek lingo).

Zevox

[Beans]

In D&D, being a Half-Orc means a -2 penalty to your Intelligence score. In Thog's case, intelligence was his dump stat, meaning he either put the lowest value he rolled into it (if his stats were determined by rolling dice) or he didn't put any points into it (if his stats were determined by point buy). This results in him having an abysmal intelligence score.

Therkla and Bozzok, however, plainly did not use intelligence as their dump stat - they may have rolled better or used a better roll for that stat, or may have spent points on the stat, again depending on the method hypothetically used - so in spite of their race's -2 to it, they're reasonably intelligent.

In short, they all inherited their race's intelligence, Thog just didn't offset it in any way while Therkla and Bozzok did (or Therkla and Bozzok were just born smarter, if you prefer a phrasing that doesn't involve any geek lingo).

Zevox
*blinks*
Oh.
Alright, I see now. That makes sense.
The stuff I don't know about D&D could just about squeeze into the Marianas Trench.

[Devils_Advocate]

Basically, Therkla and Bozzok being smarter than Thog isn't any more mysterious than Roy being smarter than Elan. A broad range of levels of intelligence can exist within a single race.

The difference in intelligence between an average human and an average orc is probably considerably less than the difference in intelligence between two randomly selected humans. There's not a huge gulf in smarts beteen the two races. Orcs do tend to be primitive and uneducated, though. The average orc has about as much Intelligence and Wisdom as Elan. This seems to have helped Elan with the orc tribe the gang encountered: He was able to relate to them on their level.

Several of the orcs we've seen sound dumber than they really are because they speak Common as a second language. "yes, crong hope crong get to verb conjugation before end of week." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html)

[Beans]

This seems to have helped Elan with the orc tribe the gang encountered: He was able to relate to them on their level.
And his Charisma.

[Rotipher]

FWIW, I find it ironic that nobody (including Races of Destiny) has even once mentioned what might be the simplest of all backstories:

Orc client + $$$ + human prostitute + medieval-grade birth control = Bouncing baby half-orc

Not every half-breed character's origin has to be an exercise in melodrama, whether violent or romantic. Sometimes, it's just plain random.

[Assassin89]

FWIW, I find it ironic that nobody (including Races of Destiny) has even once mentioned what might be the simplest of all backstories:

Orc client + $$$ + human prostitute + medieval-grade birth control = Bouncing baby half-orc

Not every half-breed character's origin has to be an exercise in melodrama, whether violent or romantic. Sometimes, it's just plain random.

Or maybe Human client + $$$ + orc prostitute + medieval-grade birth control = Bouncing baby half-orc

[Simanos]

FWIW, I find it ironic that nobody (including Races of Destiny) has even once mentioned what might be the simplest of all backstories:

Orc client + $$$ + human prostitute + medieval-grade birth control = Bouncing baby half-orc

Not every half-breed character's origin has to be an exercise in melodrama, whether violent or romantic. Sometimes, it's just plain random.


Orc client + $$$ + human prostitute + medieval-grade birth control = Bouncing baby half-orc
+ primitive abortion OR infanticide = no half orc
Infanticide was pretty common in history, but even so the thing that bothers me most is your "orc client". First you have to get the evil underground race that gets penalties in the sun to be civilized enough to approach humans other than in a raid, then you have to make the humans not kill it gruesomely, then find a woman desperate and crazy enough to... oh well that could probably be the easy part.
But then you end up not with orcs the evil race, but with humans-in-green-costumes that are "different" (barbaric).

[Rotipher]

True, Assassin 89 ... although in the latter scenario, the formula would probably only call for "$", not "$$$". Charisma factor, no? :wink:

[Rotipher]

Infanticide was pretty common in history, but even so the thing that bothers me most is your "orc client". First you have to get the evil underground race that gets penalties in the sun to be civilized enough to approach humans other than in a raid, then you have to make the humans not kill it gruesomely, then find a woman desperate and crazy enough to... oh well that could probably be the easy part.
But then you end up not with orcs the evil race, but with humans-in-green-costumes that are "different" (barbaric).

Not if there's a human community with a predominantly Evil alignment, where an orc's money is just as coveted as anyone's. That's been a D&D tradition ever since the old Slaver module-series. After all, if orcs never engage in commerce, then there's no reason for them to hoard gold in the first place.

[yanmaodao]

....cliches are good (and maybe the best) foundation to a story, because they are pretty powerful. The Hero's Journey is still used because its themas are so universal, linked to the experiences and feelings of so much people, that you're ensured that you'll have interest and empathy from your audience.

There are good cliches and there are bad cliches. In terms of adherence to standard romantic tropes, Twilight draws heavily upon "universal" and "tried and true" themes. The Tolkien Orc, with its respective genre, does the same.

[Simanos]

Not if there's a human community with a predominantly Evil alignment, where an orc's money is just as coveted as anyone's. That's been a D&D tradition ever since the old Slaver module-series. After all, if orcs never engage in commerce, then there's no reason for them to hoard gold in the first place.
Note that a human society with dominant evil alignment still isn't an evil race society. Also note that 2 evil societies do not have to get along nice together. Stuff like racism and hatred are even more common in evil societies after all. And a bit of commerce doesn't mean mingling, just look at Dwarfs and Elves :p

Still, DM's choice can go either way.

[Wardog]

Not if there's a human community with a predominantly Evil alignment, where an orc's money is just as coveted as anyone's. That's been a D&D tradition ever since the old Slaver module-series. After all, if orcs never engage in commerce, then there's no reason for them to hoard gold in the first place.

It needn't even be that.

A non-evil (neutral or, less-likely, good) orc might be working in town as a mercenary / bouncer / etc, decides that he wants some "company" but can't get it freely (due to prejudice and/or his -2 Cha penalty), so pays for some (rather than taking it by force as a more stereotypical evil orc would).



Another scenario no-one has mentioned could be a slutty evil sorceress (but I repeat myself) keeping a harem of charmed/dominated orcs. (Although she would presumably have some sort of magical or other means of contraception, and would be likely to terminate the pregnancy if that failed).

[Neithan]

It also depends on how stinking and stupid the orcs are. I guess guys likes Oubold would be very popular with the ladies.



Orc client + $$$ + human prostitute + medieval-grade birth control = Bouncing baby half-orc

I don't know the details, but medieal grade birth control wasn't nearly as bad as one might think. I think it was just in the 19th century, that the "medieval" sexual morals came into existance. Before that people had much more liberal views and if you don't wanted to have a child, there were various means to not have to.
But than it was no longer accepted for women to do so when experts could no longer be trained the knowledge became mostly lost. And in a generic DnD world full of druids and clerics, it should be much less of a problem.

[David Argall]

Or maybe Human client + $$$ + orc prostitute + medieval-grade birth control = Bouncing baby half-orc

But this is so mundane... Much more cheap drama possible with the dad using more forceful means of persuasion, and the players want that sort of special background. [In Living Greyhawk, we had to ban player backgrounds that involved named NPCs for fear the king, to say nothing of the queen, would have had time for nothing beside making PCs.]



if orcs never engage in commerce, then there's no reason for them to hoard gold in the first place.
A common theme in real animals, and presumably a lot of monsters in D&D, is that items are used as status symbols. A dragon has no real need for all that gold, except that the lady dragon sees it and decides he must be a real stud to keep this big pile of gold out of the hand of adventurers or rival dragons. So he has no great need for commerce, at least beyond the "You give me gold and I don't kill you." level.
Now our orc likely engages in a lot more commerce than our dragon, but there is no absolute necessity he do so.

[Kish]

But then you end up not with orcs the evil race, but with humans-in-green-costumes that are "different" (barbaric).This strikes me as, "You shouldn't give a nonhuman race that much depth." Orcs are an "evil race" as much as elves or dwarves are a "good race." Yes, they're "often Chaotic Evil" but wanting to treat that as meaning something other than "their culture, not their bones, is savage and violent" is something I don't understand.

[Weirdlet]

In all honesty, it seems to me that it's difficult to make any non-human race truly nonhuman, without completely demolishing any way the players or readers might have to relate. It also seems to me that the standard thing to do with orcs is to give them every abhorrent or undesirable trait that humans have or have been accused of, and that bugs me to no end. By canon/DM/Authorial fiat, orcs literally *are* inherently inferior, in almost all ways but physical prowess.

I prefer going with 'different, but in a way that is argued to be inferior,' in full history-is-written-by-the-winners-and-those-who've-developed-writing fashion. Humans think orcs are simple-minded, vicious and can't have nice things. Orcs think humans are weak, over-complex and don't value the good things in life.

That said- there's definitely room for orcish depth and development, without them being *just* humans with green skin.

[Neithan]

I have to say I'd much rather have green human barbarians than a race of inherently evil humanoids. It works for outsiders and aberrations, but a humanoid society in which everyone just wants to slaughter and rob each other and everyone else just doesn't seem to be beliveable in any way. We had our fair share of evil nations in our human history, but always there were the huge masses of normal people who just wanted to get along and even the most vile dictators usually loved their wives and children.

[hamishspence]

its Often CE, not Usually CE. And the majority of the remainder, by MM IV, are CN (not NE) so you'd expect a reasonable proportion to be not Evil.

[Ravens_cry]

Maybe Half-orcs came from early BDSM enthusiasts?

[Leper Master]

As it has been mentioned before, It is the DM's decision to how populated the world is with half orcs and half elves etc, etc.

Hell I once created a campaign with Humans as the minority.
(Characters just spent the entire time just PvP though. :smallannoyed:)

[paladinofshojo]

I believe a reason that there aren't many half-orcs is because that it only applies that the parents have some sort of inter-species fetish. Which can explain why they would be even willing (or atleast the one who's doing the raping) to engage in sexual intercoarse with a different species all together. Think about it, why would any well-written, standard Orc society have "pure" Orcs if all their males prefer human women instead? If they were all "half orcs" who continiously kept their population up by raping humans, their blood would dilute over generations turning them into humans alltogether. I'm not saying that there IS an accountability for taste, as there can be several individuals who prefer females of a different species over their own, but having a whole race of them is just ridiculous and goes against nature. As most humans find human(like) women attractive in the social norms of their society, most orcs would find orc women attractive in the social norms of their society, there is NO double standard. Infact I bet most orcs would find female humans just as repulsive as humans find female orcs.



And in wartime situations, especially the long, desperate, bloody ones. It will probably be more likely that orcs will kill all humans alltogether rather than sparing women.Considering the fact that most orcs would probably not find them attractive at all, and that in times of hatred and animosity between the two species, I think the "proud" orcs would think of it as a disgusting act rather than a display of dominance and sexual power; as having intercoarse with a human would probably be portrayed as no better than having sex with a wild beast, and would even be insulted by remarks like "your mother is a worthless little human and your dirty blood inhereted her race's frailty" or "I heard your father was too weak to attract any self-respecting women therefore he had to settle for a human whore".

[johnswiftwood]

You're thinking of Trolls. Warcraft Orcs are the Neolithic nomadic warrior-shaman race.



Same here, but then Elaine Cunningham is a better writer.



And yet they were thrown out of 4th Edition because of the "implied ugly backstory" that they "frankly don't want to dwell on very much".

Personally I don't see how this is even debatable if there's any possibility of sexual attraction and fertility between orcs and humans.* In virtually every setting the two are at war with each other, and this is what happens literally all the time in war in real life. Do some research--or better yet don't, it'll mess you up.

*Amusingly enough Warcraft averts this since orcs think human women are hideous (Thrall's the exception since he was raised by humans) and find even Quillboars, hunchbacked bipedal pigs to be better looking.

phb2 has half orks,it has them as kord's spawn, romantically intertwined humans/half orks/orks,or simply as the implied back story should the player choose it to be that way,i play half orks that serve as the second,just mostly in non racial specific tribes,one has my character's blind paladin mother divinely inspired tofall in love with a chaotic good orkish chief

[The Giant]

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