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skywalker
2008-12-12, 03:06 AM
Hey everyone, as you might recall, I'm running a (couple of) groups through Keep on the Shadowfell, with the intention of moving on to the other two adventures when/if time allows.

A couple of weeks ago, I introduced another group of players to 4e through the adventure. They got about 1/4 of the way through and said they'd like to do it again when we next meet (we're an old high school group, so meetings are sporadic).

One of the players, however, was kinda ticked about missing with his encounter/daily powers. And he did, in fact, never hit with any of them over the course of 4 encounters, and he tried in all four. He's asking for a houserule which would allow him (well, any player really) to spend an action point to re-roll one roll. This would be proof against bad luck. I can certainly see the logic here, and it sounds like a pretty good idea. I'm not against the PCs being slightly more powerful than WotC intended, as long as we all have fun.

The problem I see with this idea, however, is that using this rule would nerf a number of abilities that are already built into the system. The one that jumps to mind is the Elven Accuracy feature. As I see it, this causes elves to lose a lot of their uniqueness and their primary defining mechanical feature.

Also, while this doesn't really come into play at the lowest levels where they're currently playing, it also cheapens some abilities that come along later on.

What are your thoughts, playground? Am I being too cautious/protective? Or am I justified? Do you have any other suggestions on "bad luck proofing?"

Gralamin
2008-12-12, 03:14 AM
I'd say you are correct. Instead, Introduce him to some Veteran's Armor as loot ASAP. (Adventurer's Vault)

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-12, 03:45 AM
What he's asking for is, in fact, a Paragon Power for at least one PP (Kensei) and therefore you should not give in.

Why is he missing all the time? Is it just from bad die rolls, or from poor strategy? If he's, say, a STR Cleric using a hammer, then unless he has a high strength he may have trouble hitting reliably without CA. You should tell him, in fact, that in 4E, CA is not just for Rogues anymore - that +2 to hit can be huge, particularly at low levels.

Anyhow, at low level play, Encounters should not be the bread and butter of your combat. If you try and nova out at the start of combat you'll probably end up missing a lot (no CA or set up from your allies) and then feel rather depleted for the rest of combat.

Can you describe his character a bit more (stats and so forth)? Maybe there's some constructive advice we can give to help him hit more.

Starsinger
2008-12-12, 03:51 AM
Perhaps, allowing someone to spend an action point for a +3 bonus to hit after the fact might be useful. Since they wouldn't gain an actual action from it, humans, it'll be less encroaching on a Human (or half-elf's) Action Surge

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-12, 03:55 AM
Perhaps, allowing someone to spend an action point for a +3 bonus to hit after the fact might be useful. Since they wouldn't gain an actual action from it, humans, it'll be less encroaching on a Human (or half-elf's) Action Surge

Heck, if he's a human or HE, why not just let him retrain one of his feats for Action Surge. If he's not hitting regularly with a +3, he should sacrifice his dice to the Dice Devil and get a new set. :smalltongue:

EDIT:
On the subject of "bad luck proofing" - don't.

There are some things which should be automatic (walking on a dry, even pavement) and some things that should be uncertain. Combat is something which must be uncertain to be anything more than a lesson in mathematics. Unless he is playing with bad-warped dice, his fortune should come back around.

Yes, his proposed action point rule isn't going to break the system, but you are right to give the party a significant boost in power (essentially a retrospective bonus) for free. It removes one of the various "rewards" that 4E presents for advancing in level and it also makes some other features (Elven Accuracy and Action Surge) much less meaningful.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 04:35 AM
We all have our sessions of bad luck.

It is possible that he made a mistake in character building (in one of my campaigns, we had a fighter with strength 14, who predictably spent most of his time missing).

So rather than this custom feat, I'd advise him that he can:
* Start with an 18 in your primary stat (or 16 + 2 from race). There really isn't a good reason for not doing that.
* Use a weapon with +3 proficiency. There are a few good reasons for not doing that, but not all that many.
* Select powers that do things on a miss, or that are area effects.
* Play an elf.
* Play tactical, i.e. getting CA most or all the time.

skywalker
2008-12-12, 04:49 AM
I actually suggested action surge as a great feat. I think the problem is (and I don't think this is isolated, every gaming group I've been in has worked this way) that action points (which weren't a part of the core D&D experience until now) aren't usually remembered. Which means normally an action point gets used after a major bust, like when you try to land your big daily and fail, you use your AP in an effort to salvage something from the turn. I know a number of players who play this way, and they get less than average results from their APs. On the other hand, myself and the other guy who has DM'ed 4e use our APs proactively and tend to get great results.

Anyway, I suggested action surge as a great feat, but I'm honestly not sure if he took it. I can't think of what else he might have taken, beyond toughness, or improved initiative, or inspired recovery. All 3 good feats, but nobody in that group actually mentioned their feats for the whole session.

It's funny you should mention half-elves so much, because the character is a
Half-Elf Inspiring Warlord. I know all about those, I made a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85099) about one.
Stats I'm iffy about (haven't got their sheets with me, they took them back to the corners of the globe) but I know he has a 16 in both INT and CHA. I'm not sure about DEX and WIS, but I'm fairly certain they're above 10 at the least. I'm starting to think the primary problem here is a low strength score.

His power selection is decent, he's got wolf-pack and commander's as at-wills. Encounter power is Hammer and Anvil, which is neither the best power for the inspiring nor the tactical warlord, but it's not a bad choice when you have a melee striker, and it does target reflex, which should be helping his chances. The daily is Bastion of Defense, which does have effects on a miss, but missing out on that 3[W] really hurt his feelings.

He's using a longspear for commander's, which I personally think is one of those times when it's appropriate not to use a +3 weapon. I don't think I've ever seen "his" commander's strike miss.

The group actually has very sound tactics, they flank durn well everybody, and the only reason they had any trouble with the irontooth encounter in KotS was because this character kept missing and I kept inexplicably rolling natural 18s to hit the Paladin, and natural 4s on my rolls against the wizard. *shrug*

So I suppose the answer should be "No, you didn't optimize to hit things, you hedged your bets on INT and CHA so you're mechanically not going to hit as often." Maybe showing him the Warlords Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1055055) and trying to explain that it's not his job to kill things, but to help everybody else kill things and stay alive long enough to do it?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-12, 06:04 PM
Sounds like a decent build. You should definitely let him retrain a feat for Action Surge. It'll help a lot.

As for remembering action points - I use poker chips. I picked up a set from a Walgreens and I use them for Action Points and Saving Throws. For Saving Throws, I give the PCs a white poker chip whenever they're hit by an effect that requires them to save; it helps me remember who is afflicted, and when they have saved successfully.

It really does help my PCs (and me!) remember what they have.

Shady_halfling
2008-12-12, 06:57 PM
i say no dont let him do that. a thing i used 2 do when i first started dming (but i dont do it anymore) is let someone reroll, but with a -10 penalty.

The New Bruceski
2008-12-12, 07:17 PM
After one of my teammates spent an entire session never rolling above an 8 and mostly getting 1s, using multiple dice that we were rolling fine with, our DM added "bad luck counters". These are awarded about every 2 abysmal rolls (DMs disgression) and can be redeemed for one reroll in the future.

EDIT: It was actually an interesting discussion among us, this was a tip of the bell curve thing, and he'd never been bitten by the Bad Luck Bug before (usually I get it). Spurred some discussion about balancing random chance against the fact that it sucks to have nothing hit.

WickerNipple
2008-12-12, 07:30 PM
There's absolutely no reason to make the offer of such when there are both identical Paragon level abilities, and also other abilities at lower level to help ensure hitting when necessary.

His problem is either extremely bad luck (which happens, and has to be accepted as a part of any dice game), or poor play in either his tactical approach or his build approach.

None of those problems are well solved by you adding such an ability to the game.

Ninetail
2008-12-13, 12:54 AM
Stats I'm iffy about (haven't got their sheets with me, they took them back to the corners of the globe) but I know he has a 16 in both INT and CHA. I'm not sure about DEX and WIS, but I'm fairly certain they're above 10 at the least. I'm starting to think the primary problem here is a low strength score.

That'll be it. Most warlord attacks rely on STR vs. AC, so if he has a +1 (or worse, 0) modifier, he'll have a relatively low chance of hitting. (I recommend that my players have no less than a +3 modifier in their primary attack-roll stat -- that helps them stay ahead of the curve, where they're hitting more often than missing.)

I would offer to let him re-stat his character, because he might not have realized, going in, just how important STR is to a warlord. It's not necessarily intuitive, and he could be facing a significant penalty (yes, -2 to -3 is significant in 4e) through no fault of his own.

If he would rather have both the INT and CHA, that's another matter -- but then he's intentionally not built for accuracy, and has no reason to complain.

skywalker
2008-12-13, 05:12 AM
Yes, the problem of course for the warlord is, there are beautiful powers for both "paths" and I can see why one would want to hedge his bets. I think as rushed as we were when we built characters, I may let all the players re-do their stats, since both the wizard and the paladin also were interested in sacking dump stats even further for attack stats. I know this can turn out to be problematic but so far in the keep my other group has needed all the help they can get.

Since they just reached 2nd level and I'm fairly sure he doesn't want to change out any powers, this guy can just use his particular re-train on action surge if he so chooses.

The problem, like I stated before, isn't even remembering that they have action points. It's the fact that action points aren't used in a proactive manner, but rather as a reaction to current bad luck. Usually. In my experience, the players are quite aware of their possession of action points. They just don't know how best to use them. Which I guess is really their choice, but in my experience, what I suggested is better.

RebelRogue
2008-12-13, 06:11 AM
I think the problem is (and I don't think this is isolated, every gaming group I've been in has worked this way) that action points (which weren't a part of the core D&D experience until now) aren't usually remembered. Which means normally an action point gets used after a major bust, like when you try to land your big daily and fail, you use your AP in an effort to salvage something from the turn. I know a number of players who play this way, and they get less than average results from their APs.
As someone who plays the game with kids for a living, I can confirm that at least they do this all the time - and with mediocre results, I must agree.

I can also remember doing this myself once in actual game play (I lost my character that battle... go figure).

WickerNipple
2008-12-13, 11:18 AM
Yeah, if he has a low Strength that's no doubt the problem. An offer to re-stat the characters if people wanted to would be a good solution.

Also might be worth talking to them about Action Points and how best to use them. I know the two 4e groups I'm involved in found the new system to be pretty intuitive, but if people aren't getting what they should be used for, have a chat and explain things.

Swiftest
2008-12-14, 06:30 AM
My cure for missing too often is simple: the streakbreaker. Every time a player misses on more than 4 consecutive attack rolls (AoE attacks excluded) I give him a temporary +4 bonus to hit, increasing by +1 for every time he misses again consecutively. This helps even out terrible luck somewhat, as usually that +4 makes all the difference and it still helps maintain balance as it's only given when one player has been considerably ineffective for multiple rounds. I like it better than offering a reroll.

I *do not* think I'd offer it to anyone with scimitar dance or anything similar, though =X.

edit: I should really give credit for this to my DM, as it's his idea in compressed form and it works quite well indeed =p.

its_all_ogre
2008-12-14, 07:55 AM
personally i would dissuade him from having high stats in both cha and int.
if he's going tac lord then have 18 int
if inspiring then have 18 cha
attempting to do both well is a recipe for failure, concentrate on one over the other.
it also free's up stat points.
but as many others have said, str is an important stat for warlords.
hell if i could get a weapon that gave +5 to hit and did only 1 point of damage i'd jump at the chance, the damage you do is much less important compared to the benefit you give to the party.

consider lead the attack with an 18 int, you give your whole party +5 to hit...the 3W damage from the hit is, frankly, worth little compared to the number of hits your fellow party members are going to get in due to your help.

bastion of defence is similar, +1 to all defences and 9 temp hit points each is more useful than the 3W hit.
quick question though, what has he grabbed with dilettante?

vermonter
2008-12-14, 12:15 PM
I agree about not making action points a re-roll. I've found that in 4E it just takes players a little while to adjust to how they work.

First adventure - practically forget they have them.
Second adventure - some use to get double attacks at advantage, others forget they have them
Third adventure - everyone using them, some to take advantage of special feats, etc.

Warlords in particular are played to the most benefit by players who can plan this sort of thing ahead, as they have powers that improve both them and others for actions using an action point. In our group with a warlord, one player also has an action surge and pretty much will only use a daily as the action after using an action point (and even then, despite a total +5 to the attack roll missed last time).

As to reconstructing characters, I have essentially no house rules except this one: A player can freely rebuild their character, including reconstructing stats, retraining skills or feats, until they reach the end of first level. I almost always play with one or more group members who are somewhat new to D&D and also 4E is totally new, so what I find this really does is let people see how their character works in practice and focus their abilities on how they actually play. It works well and gives interest to first level before you have many cool abilities and magic items.

BardicDuelist
2008-12-14, 01:23 PM
My cure for missing too often is simple: the streakbreaker. Every time a player misses on more than 4 consecutive attack rolls (AoE attacks excluded) I give him a temporary +4 bonus to hit, increasing by +1 for every time he misses again consecutively. This helps even out terrible luck somewhat, as usually that +4 makes all the difference and it still helps maintain balance as it's only given when one player has been considerably ineffective for multiple rounds. I like it better than offering a reroll.

I *do not* think I'd offer it to anyone with scimitar dance or anything similar, though =X.

edit: I should really give credit for this to my DM, as it's his idea in compressed form and it works quite well indeed =p.

I do something similar (called "DM's grace" by my players), except instead of 4 consecutive attacks (I came up with this in 3.5), it was not hitting/having an effect for 3 consecutive rounds. Really, at that point, the combat was almost over anyway.