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View Full Version : [3.5]Familiars with Levels?



arguskos
2008-12-12, 10:18 AM
So... can familiars take levels? For example, I think it'd be hilarious to take the Obtain Familiar feat 3 times, and then take Improved Familiar to get a small family of pseudodragons, each of whom I teach different classes, following me around. Make one a wizard, one a cleric, and one... something else fun, and have a whole family of pseudodragon familiars with you!

I'm pretty sure most DM's would tell me to take a hike, but I can't help but think it'd be too cute. Is anything other than common sense stopping this from working out?

olelia
2008-12-12, 10:19 AM
The main issue is that Familiars don't advance in hit die. So I'm pretty sure that the answer is no.

bosssmiley
2008-12-12, 10:43 AM
Combine it with your cohort...and maybe.

IIRC by the RAW you can only ever have one familiar at a time. That said, the idea of a whole pack of squabbling imp cronies is fun. :smallbiggrin:

Fan
2008-12-12, 10:47 AM
Well, technicly ANY creature with a high enough numberi n the appriate stat can be taught to cast. Just in a different language, and using talon gestures instead.
So auto burning their first level feat I think by RAW if you had a speak with animals spell up you COULD.

KIDS
2008-12-12, 11:01 AM
I don't think you can have multiple familiars or that they would gain class levels. You could, however, have one cohort (pseudodragon with class levels) and one familiar (pseudrodragon to whom you grant spells via Imbue Familiar With Spell Like Ability (6th level spell from spell compendium)

jcsw
2008-12-12, 11:06 AM
What you need, is to use Psicrystals, which *do* get HD.

kamikasei
2008-12-12, 11:10 AM
What you need, is to use Psicrystals, which *do* get HD.

They gain construct HD based on their master's level. How are you transmogrifying those into class levels?

Burley
2008-12-12, 11:11 AM
Familiars technically use their master's HD for any effect that might matter... But, I don't think PC levels work, because you don't stack PC levels with monster HD. I dunno...

But, Psuedodragons have a cohort rating. Boost your Leadership and you can have one with PC levels. I'd suggest using the NPC classes like Adept or something. It'd be easier to convince your DM to let you do it if it's a sub-par class, and an Adept could, in turn, summon its own familiar. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Ninja'd. The goggles! They did nothing!

jcsw
2008-12-12, 11:56 AM
They gain construct HD based on their master's level. How are you transmogrifying those into class levels?

It's still a step up over things which don't get HD at all.

KIDS
2008-12-12, 12:00 PM
That's actually a great idea, Burley Warlock. Having your cohort be a caster and have its own familiar would add the third one - wow, that is almost the entire family at that point!

Burley
2008-12-12, 12:16 PM
That's actually a great idea, Burley Warlock. Having your cohort be a caster and have its own familiar would add the third one - wow, that is almost the entire family at that point!

You could take on Adept followers as well, but they'd never be high enough level to get Improved Familiar [Pseudodragon]...

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-12, 06:34 PM
Obtain Familiar can't be taken multiple times because no feat can be taken multiple times unless it explicitly says so. And though the feat doesn't actually say so, it obviously also shouldn't allow you to get an extra familiar if you already have levels in Wizard and/or Sorcerer, either. It lets you stack levels in other arcane spellcasting classes with Wiz and Sorc to determine your familiar's abilities, though. This would seem to cover PrCs that advance spellcasting in an existing arcane class, thereby allowing you to circumvent the one minor disadvantage of such PrCs entirely. Whee!

A familiar is not a wholly separate being that earns its own XP. It is an extension of its master and has stats based on its master's stats. The rules do not explicitly say that you may not add class levels to a familiar, but they also do not say that you may not give your character a +5 Dodge bonus to AC purely because you feel like it.

In a non-silly game, the answer to this is "Don't be a munchkin."


It's still a step up over things which don't get HD at all.
A psicrystal is treated as having as many hit dice and half as many hit points as its master, exactly like a familiar.

Well, OK, I guess you could argue that it gets 3/4 BAB, which makes it quite good at delivering touch powers if so.

Tacoma
2008-12-12, 06:58 PM
Let me be the Devil's Advocate's Advocate here. It sounds like he has a cool character concept not that he's trying to get six Clerics together to cast Elven High Magic all the time.

Opportunity 1 is using Leadership. You gain one familiar, a Pseudodragon. Then with Leadership your cohort is a Pseudodragon with Wizard levels. That Wizard cohort gains a Pseudodragon familiar.

Opportunity 2 is just to use what we've done forever in 2E. You can give anybody some of your share of your XP, giving away up to half of what you gain.

Got a henchman you want to level up? Divert some of your XP to him. Tougher familiar? Give him some XP.

The rules we use are pretty simple. To gain some of your XP the creature must have been around when you gained it. No leveling up a follower living at home while you're out. You can't level a follower or familiar or whatever beyond two levels lower than you. If you level him in your class, you can train him at a discount.

This means you're making the choice to be less powerful by one level in exchange for a familiar being perhaps level 4-5, higher than he would be otherwise.

The main oddity of our system is that in 1E if the Magic-User is near his familiar he gains the familiar's HP as phantom HP. Which means a Magic-User could level his familiar up as a Fighter, paying full for training, and get a ton of extra HP. But familiars are so vulnerable in general and the loss so grievous in 1E that we feel it needs something to balance it up.

Opportunity 3 is to roleplay trying to find a small family or band of Pseudodragons who want to hang with you as henchmen. You cover their living expenses, healing and resurrection costs, and toss a bit of jink in their hoards once in a while and I don't see why they wouldn't want to adventure with you.
I'd buy a cloak with plenty of large pockets inside and wear a backpack with perches for them.
Heck, I want to adventure with you at that point. I prefer a leather-bound perch and enjoy apple pies.

NEO|Phyte
2008-12-12, 08:05 PM
A psicrystal is treated as having as many hit dice and half as many hit points as its master, exactly like a familiar.

No, it physically GAINS HD.


A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars)


A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder), its hit points are equal to half its master’s, and its saving throw bonuses are the same as its master’s. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm)

Tacoma
2008-12-12, 08:10 PM
PsiCrystal! Use Harden!

...

PsiCrystal, you're just not trying anymore! Time was, you could harden up anytime I told you to. Now look at you. Down to 3 HD. Back in your PsiBall.

*Clok-bweeiiiii*
*sparkle sparkle*

arguskos
2008-12-12, 09:47 PM
Let me be the Devil's Advocate's Advocate here. It sounds like he has a cool character concept not that he's trying to get six Clerics together to cast Elven High Magic all the time.

Opportunity 1 is using Leadership. You gain one familiar, a Pseudodragon. Then with Leadership your cohort is a Pseudodragon with Wizard levels. That Wizard cohort gains a Pseudodragon familiar.

Opportunity 2 is just to use what we've done forever in 2E. You can give anybody some of your share of your XP, giving away up to half of what you gain.

Got a henchman you want to level up? Divert some of your XP to him. Tougher familiar? Give him some XP.

The rules we use are pretty simple. To gain some of your XP the creature must have been around when you gained it. No leveling up a follower living at home while you're out. You can't level a follower or familiar or whatever beyond two levels lower than you. If you level him in your class, you can train him at a discount.

This means you're making the choice to be less powerful by one level in exchange for a familiar being perhaps level 4-5, higher than he would be otherwise.

The main oddity of our system is that in 1E if the Magic-User is near his familiar he gains the familiar's HP as phantom HP. Which means a Magic-User could level his familiar up as a Fighter, paying full for training, and get a ton of extra HP. But familiars are so vulnerable in general and the loss so grievous in 1E that we feel it needs something to balance it up.

Opportunity 3 is to roleplay trying to find a small family or band of Pseudodragons who want to hang with you as henchmen. You cover their living expenses, healing and resurrection costs, and toss a bit of jink in their hoards once in a while and I don't see why they wouldn't want to adventure with you.
I'd buy a cloak with plenty of large pockets inside and wear a backpack with perches for them.
Heck, I want to adventure with you at that point. I prefer a leather-bound perch and enjoy apple pies.
So, yeah, basically this. I wasn't trying to be a munchkin, just thought it'd be AWESOMELY fun to have a small family of familiars following me around as minor spellcasters.

Anyways, Leadership+Familiar+that XP share=fun all around! Thanks for the suggestions Tacoma, I'll see if I can't try this is a game sometime!

So, on this topic, what class would be best for a familiar to take? I assume a spellcasting class, but is there anything else a familiar could reasonably take?

Flickerdart
2008-12-12, 10:03 PM
Isn't there an Extra Familiar feat in some Dragon?

Wizard/Sorcerer would be the best for a familiar, obviously, since I don't think anyone else gets them as a class feature. A Druidic Animal Companion is a beefier option, but they can't be Pseudodragons, and definitely can't have levels because they have to be, I think, Beasts of INT 2 or less.

You can also take all sorts of swaps for your familiar, like Flesh-stitched or something (Libris Mortis, makes it undead) or the alternate class feature which gives you an Animal Companion at half your class level to determine its own. But neither of those is particularly useful for you...

Then there's Beastmaster, who gets a whole zoo of creatures. But they're all Animal Companions as well, not Familiars.

Alcopop
2008-12-12, 10:35 PM
Couple questions on the subject,

Can familiars have or obtain feats? do you get too choose these? does this change if using improved familiar or dragon familiar to get familiars with starting HD?

Shpadoinkle
2008-12-12, 11:34 PM
Couple questions on the subject,

Can familiars have or obtain feats? do you get too choose these? does this change if using improved familiar or dragon familiar to get familiars with starting HD?

No. Familiars DO advance as the master levels up, how is detailed in the sidebar in the PHB about familiars. And that's it. That's all they get. They do NOT get levels, EVER.

Why? Because by becoming a familiar, they've essentially become an extension of thier master. They have NO power of thier own beyond that of a normal member of thier species- anything extraordinary about a familiar is thanks ENTIRELY to it's master.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-15, 12:04 AM
No, it physically GAINS HD.
"Physically"? :smallconfused:

:smallsigh: Look, you could say that "psicrystals actually gain HD, but familiars don't." But does that actually mean, like, anything? Aren't psicrystals and familiars treated exactly the same ways with regard to hit dice? If not, how are they treated differently?

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

NEO|Phyte
2008-12-15, 01:24 AM
"Physically"? :smallconfused:

:smallsigh: Look, you could say that "psicrystals actually gain HD, but familiars don't." But does that actually mean, like, anything? Aren't psicrystals and familiars treated exactly the same ways with regard to hit dice? If not, how are they treated differently?

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Yes, it means anything. Actually having HD (assuming you have an Int score) means you get BAB, Saves, Feats, and Skills. Saves and arguably Skills are set by yours, but your Psicrystal can have whatever feats it qualifies for.

And yes, psicrystals and familiars ARE treated differently, read the parts of the SRD I quoted last post. As a tl;dr of said segments...

Psicrystals gain HD, familiars don't, but they get to pretend they do so things like Holy Word don't unduly rape them.