The Fighter [3.5 Full Rebuild]

[Grey Paladin]

Design Notes This class was balanced against the Wizard, and was not built for handling Damage Multipliers such as Leap Attack- understand these facts before dubbing it broken. This class is a part of an effort to rebalance all Core classes.

Description:
Conflict defines existence, and none know it better than the Fighter.
With iron will and flashing steel these elite warriors are the lords of battle, beneath their frigid gaze, might and magic wither. On the field of battle, entire armies may break beneath the force of a single demon such as this.

These brave souls spend their waking hours in the hell hole of the battle-field, cutting bloody swathes through those unlucky enough to be on the opposing front. But the unequivocal talent of the fighters is hard come by. Their waking hours, those where their skills are not being put to use, are filled with endless drills and workouts.

A fighter requires steady nerves and an iron will to manifest his potential. He marshals his movement so rigorously, that his feats of combat may often seem superhuman.
The fighter is a true paragon to the common brawler, facing down cavalry charges and rampaging dragons with equal restraint, his is not the work of the common man.

The fighter walks along the brink of death every day, the slightest error could send him toppling over into the void. Their rigid skills and discipline are the only things keeping them alive. A fighter who neglects his duties is not long for this life.

Hit Die: d10

Skill Points: 2+Int Modifier

Skills:The Fighter's class skills are: Climb (STR) Profession (WIS) *Jump (STR) Ride (DEX) Swim (STR) Knowledge: History, Religion, Nobility, Folklore, War, Engineering (INT) Bluff (CHA) Diplomacy (CHA) Intimidate (CHA) And Heal (WIS)

The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Rookie, Force of Will, Bonus Feat

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|-

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|-

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Warrior, Bonus Feat

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|-

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|-

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Champion, Bonus Feat

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|-

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8|Bonus Feat

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|-

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus Feat

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|Avatar of Might

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|-

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus Feat

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|-

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|God of War ,Bonus Feat[/table]

NOTEDamage multipliers from any source except Critical Hits do not apply to attacks effected by or granted through a Fighter class feautre . All Fighter class feautres are Exceptional (Ex) unless stated otherwise

Force of Will:

Discipline is one’s life blood on the battle-field. By keeping their bodies and minds perfectly in check, fighters can spot and easily exploit the tiniest of openings in combat.

These feats of intense focus can be used more often as the fighter grows in experience. A fighter has as many uses of Force of Will as he has levels of Fighter, plus the Fighter's Wisdom modifier.

By expending a use of Force of Will as a Free Action, a fighter may turn one of his attack rolls or a saving throws into a natural twenty. Attacks must be able to confirm their status as Critical in order to hit automatically (or for Vorpal to trigger), otherwise they may still miss as any other attack.

This ability may not be used to Confirm criticals.

Rookie:
Every hero of legends started out at the bottom. These are the lowliest form of fighter. Their training is as of yet incomplete, and without practical experience they will never make it far. These hopefuls perish by the dozen every year, but those who naturally exhibit rigorous power and focus may be on their way to great things.

Through dint of long practice, a Rookie is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as every sort of armor and shield.

Warrior:
These hardy individuals see more bloodshed in horror over the course of a week then many folk can expect to see in their lives. They can casually face down terrors that would leave a lesser man incapacitated. Highly trained professionals, they are the staple of any elite force.

During a battle, speed is as vital as power. After enough repetition on the battlefield, these fighters have learned speed’s importance, and can make full attacks as standard actions.

Champion:
Bastions of power on the battlefield, these steel clad beasts can easily turn the tides of battle. Figures of notoriety in their line of work, many have heard their names. Local rulers squabble over the right to retain these masterful fighters.

After so much time on the field of battle, fighters of this caliber have seen the wonders and ruinous power of magic, and have developed techniques to combat it. Champions may expend a Force of Will use in order to roll a saving throw against a spell or magical effect that doesn’t normally allow it. the Fighter ignores the spell's effect on a successful save. (the type of the save should be based on the spell and common sense- this ability can save someone from being trapped in a force cage, but not from a point-blank super-nova)

Avatar of Might:
Watching these living legends fight is a lesson in humility for the most powerful of men. Their mastery of bringing death is a thing of beauty and awe. Experienced soldiers break at the very sight of them, so well known is their reputation and face. The bards sing of their prowess, and generals dread to hear their names among those of the enemy.

After many years of fighting under the worst conditions known to man, an Avatar of Might has been subjected to most anything, and has learned how press on regardless.With long years of training, Avatar’s of Might can bounce back from even the most powerful displays of might and magic. By expending a Force of Will use, they may reroll their saving throw against any and all spells or ongoing effects affecting them (as long as they allowed a Saving Throw in the first place!) . They need not be aware of them or even conscious in order to do this.

The above ability may be used once per a round.

God of War:
Few men have reached this level of mastery. Whether for good or ill, their names will echo down the corridors of history for centuries. At this point, these fighters have transcended the ordinary rules of combat. Taking down armies and cleaving mountains, all this and more is well within the grasp of their awesome might. They have faced down rampaging divinities with an icy coolness, and have cut them down casually.

Death seems to avoid these paragons of willpower, or perhaps their skills have gone beyond the limits of their body. Reading the subtlest flows of battle, Fighters of this level may expend a Force of Will use as an Immediate Action in order to avoid any offensive action (Remember that super-nova?). This is a Supernatural (Su) ability.

As these warriors raise their weapon, the hourglass of time itself seems to shatter and their motions become a nauseating blurr- their attacks as numerous as the grains of sand hitting the tapestry of reality.
Gods of War may make a Full Attack as a Move Action.

Bonus Feats:

A small arsenal of skills is death against an experianced opponent. Expanding his personal repetoire is a vital part of any fighter's training.

The Fighter gains a bonus feat from the list below (and the list for the WotC Fighter in the d20SRD) at first level, and every even level afterwards.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

New&Revised Feats

All feats below can be taken as Fighter Bonus Feats.

Each feat replaces all earlier versions.

Power Attack

Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Str 13.

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus or 5, whichever is lower. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Improved Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Str 15 , Power Attack ,Warrior Title or Level 10

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus or 10, whichever is lower. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Greater Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Str 17 ,Improved Power Attack ,Champion Title or Level 15

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus or 15, whichever is lower. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Supreme Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Str 19 ,Greater Power Attack ,Avatar of Might title or level 20

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Transcendent Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Str 21 ,Supreme Power Attack ,God of War title

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add twice that number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.



Cleave


Cleave [General]
Prerequisites

Str 13, Power Attack

Benefit
Whenever you drop a creature to 0 or less Hit Points, you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Great Cleave [General]
Prerequisites

Str 17, Cleave, Warrior Title or level 10

Benefit
Whenever you drop a creature to 0 or less Hit Points, you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature.

Supreme Cleave [General]
Prerequisites

Str 21, Improved Cleave, Champion Title or level 15

Benefit
Whenever you drop a creature to 0 or less Hit Points, you get up to two immediate, extra melee attacks aimed at two other creatures within reach. You may take a 5-foot step before making these extra attacks. The extra attacks are made with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature.


Combat Expertise


Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite

Int 13.

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the Full Attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a Dodge Bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Improved Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite

Int 15, Combat Expertise ,Warrior Title or Level 10

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the Full Attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -10 on your attack roll and add the same number (+10 or less) as a Dodge Bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Greater Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite

Int 17, Improved Combat Expertise, Champion Title or Level 15

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the Full Attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -15 on your attack roll and add the same number (+15 or less) as a Dodge Bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Supreme Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite

Int 19, Greater Combat Expertise, Avatar of Might Title or level 20

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the Full Attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -20 on your attack roll and add the same number (+20 or less) as a Dodge Bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Transcendent Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite

Int 21, Supreme Combat Expertise,God of War Title

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the Full Attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as your level on your attack roll and add twice this number as a Dodge Bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.


Combat Reflexes


Combat Reflexes [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 13

Benefit
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity Modifier.
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed

Improved Combat Reflexes [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 17, Combat Reflexes, Warrior Title or level 10

Benefit
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity Modifier*2.
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed

Supreme Combat Reflexes [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 21, Improved Combat Reflexes, Champion Title or level 15

Benefit
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity Modifier*3.
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed


Dodge

Dodge [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 13.

Benefit
During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 Dodge Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses

Improved Dodge [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 15, Dodge, Warrior Title or Level 10.

Benefit
During your action, you designate up to two opponents and receive a +2 Dodge Armor Class against attacks from them. You can select new targets every action.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses

Greater Dodge [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 17, Improved Dodge, Champion Title or Level 15.

Benefit
During your action, you designate up to four opponents and receive a +3 Dodge Armor Class against attacks from them. You can select new targets every action.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses

Supreme Dodge [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 19, Greater Dodge, Avatar of Might Title or Level 20.

Benefit
During your action, you designate up to 8 opponents and receive a +4 Dodge Armor Class against attacks from them. You can select new targets every action.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses

Transcendent Dodge [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 21, Supreme Dodge, God of War Title

Benefit
Gain a +5 Dodge bonus to AC.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses


Great Fortitude


Great Fortitude [General]
Prerequisite

None

Benefit
Gain a +2 bonus to all Fortitude Saving Throws

Improved Great Fortitude [General]
Prerequisite

Con 13 , Great Fortitude, Warrior Title or Level 10

Benefit
Gain a +4 bonus to all Fortitude Saving Throws

Supreme Fortitude [General]

Prerequisite

Con 15 , Improved Great Fortitude, Champion Title or Level 15

Benefit
Gain a +8 bonus to all Fortitude Saving Throws, and you do not automatically fail on a roll of one.


Lightning Reflexes


Lightning Reflexes [General]
Prerequisite

None

Benefit
Gain a +2 bonus to all Reflex Saving Throws

Improved Great Fortitude [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 13 , Lightning Reflexes, Warrior Title or Level 10

Benefit
Gain a +4 bonus to all Reflex Saving Throws

Supreme Fortitude [General]
Prerequisite

Dex 15 , Improved Great Fortitude, Champion Title or Level 15

Benefit
Gain a +8 bonus to all Reflex Saving Throws, and you do not automatically fail on a roll of one.


Iron Will


Iron Will [General]
Prerequisite

None

Benefit
Gain a +2 bonus to all Will Saving Throws

Improved Iron Will [General]
Prerequisite

Wis 13 , Iron Will, Warrior Title or Level 10

Benefit
Gain a +4 bonus to all Will Saving Throws

Supreme Will[General]
Prerequisite

Wis 15 , Improved Iron Will, Champion Title or Level 15

Benefit
Gain a +8 bonus to all Will Saving Throws, and you do not automatically fail on a roll of one.


More to come!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eratta
Power Critical does no apply to attacks made under the influence of Force of Will.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Credits
Noble Savant: 90% of Fluff, Editing
Grey Paladin: 10% fluff, Mechanics, original concept

Special Thanks: Everyone who posted in the original thread so long ago and encouraged me to attempt again (Google Frontline Tactican).

P.S.: Long post is long.

[Draz74]

Lots of dead levels, and the abilities you added to it are a big disruption in its progression. I'm not even going to judge whether they're too powerful, but they come too suddenly. The difference between a L10 and L9 Fighter is greater than the difference between a L9 and L6 Fighter.

You need to split your abilities up and/or add new non-overpowered ones to fill all the dead levels and make the class's progression feel better.

[Grey Paladin]

You get another Force of Will use and a feat every second level, so I don't really think the dead levels are a problem.

how exactly am I supposed to split up the Force of Will abilities?

[Samurai Jill]

I'll definitely try to take a look in a while.

[Project Icarus]

Force of Will seems to be a bit overpowered. Critical hits are based on luck, and that first natural twenty is most of the luck. It seems unfair to give them that much of an advantage. Maybe you could turn it into a regular roll of twenty or an automatic hit?

[Lappy9000]

Lots of dead levels, and the abilities you added to it are a big disruption in its progression. I'm not even going to judge whether they're too powerful, but they come too suddenly. The difference between a L10 and L9 Fighter is greater than the difference between a L9 and L6 Fighter.

You need to split your abilities up and/or add new non-overpowered ones to fill all the dead levels and make the class's progression feel better.

I don't find dead levels to be a problem. Personally, I'd rather have a clean class table, then have it garbled up with a bunch of useless abilities just to fill up the remaining levels.

Interesting fighter build. I certainly like the names of the abilities :d

[Demons_eye]

Do the will fort and reflexs bonus stack or replaced each time?

[Innis Cabal]

Do the will fort and reflexs bonus stack or replaced each time?

Wait....what?

[Project Icarus]

Do the will fort and reflexs bonus stack or replaced each time?

No, you don't add up all the saves from previous levels.

[Eloel]

This is broken, sorry to say so, but this is outright broken.
Get a dagger, make it vorpal (single dagger should do the job.)
Get Power Critical (Dagger) feat 5-6 times. Start with a high wisdom, and possibly dex, nothing else is important.
Move towards the enemy, attack it once with the dagger. If you don't roll a natural 20, expand one use of Force of Will. Confirmation is easy, Power Critical gives +4 to crit confirmation, and it stacks with itself. Boom, you killed ANYTHING, with a standard action. Get Cleave and Great Cleave. See for yourself what happens.
Power Critical isn't a multiplier, nor is it trying to stack with anything from fighter abilities, so it wouldn't be in the exception.
Warrior ability makes this even more broken, but won't go into that.
And when you finally reach level 20...

You can make 2 Full Attacks in 1 round, or move for one and full attack the other.
Your full attack hits 4 times, without any modifiers.
With a good Wis modifier and nothing else (talking about +6 or +7 before magic items, yet +4 works fine), you get 26-27 uses of Force of Will
Assume 6 encounters/day, you get around 4 FoW per encounter. (total 24)
You move between enemies, Full Attack them for your 4 attacks, use FoW on each, your Power Critical makes confirmation easy. Voila, without even any need for Cleave, you killed any 4 enemies, as a standard action.
That means each FoW = 1 enemy, and with 4/encounter, you're quite safe.
Get 1-2 other feats so you're not totally useless against 1 HD armies, done and done.
(Out of 18 feats, getting 10 Power Critical, would give you +40 to crit confirm. That's +45 to hit for crit at your lowest attack bonus, without using any of the other 8 feats. That's plenty)

[Neek]

I'm not sure if I like this or not. But here goes:


d10 Hit dice seems fairly normal.
2 skill points per level is also fairly normal. However, I'd reconsider removing Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Int) (History) and (Religion). from the list, and reorganize the class skills alphabetically. I say this because: A fighter is a front-line soldier, a commander and a chief. He is not a scholar.
Full base attack bonus is inline.
[b]High saves? Across the board? Are you kidding me?
[b]Rookie serves more for fluff than anything. A Fighter already gains proficiency in all these things, except Tower Shields--which I think should still apply. This doesn't hurt nor help the character.
Force of Will is overpowered at little cost. I'd suggest doing one of the following: You gain it at a slightly less rate; you expend a use before making the roll, not after; it does not trigger vorpal weapons; it provides you with a bonus to the roll, and if the roll exceeds the target's AC, it's considered a critical hit.
Warrior is severely overpowered, but I understand the reasoning behind it. I'd call for an expenditure of Force of Will just to make it possible.
Champion should not allow the Fighter to gain a Save on a spell that normally doesn't require one. There are too few of those, and it causes the DM to make the decision of what type of save and how it works, it'll slow combat down a little too much. Rather, a fighter should be able to expend a Force of Will as a free action to gain SR or DR/energy type at least. In fact, I'd call to separate that into two separate abilities.
Avatar of Might is disgusting as written. It means that 1). if I expend a Force of Will on a spell that doesn't allow a saving throw, I can make another saving throw later if it's a persistent threat (I'm not sure what conditions should apply)--either these should not stack, or something else should be done. To be Francis, rerolling saves is a mechanic of luck, not skill. I'd call for a bonus on such saves.
God of War pretty much lets the fighter negate any offensive action. As a free action. And they can make two move actions in one round, giving them two full attack options. This is not a capstone, this is disgusting. I'd revise it into something else.


Here're the mechanical problems that make this broken. The fighter can insta-crit, make two full attacks, force saving throws where they don't belong, make luck rerolls, and negate an offensive action. This class screams nothing but cheese. And not the good kind of cheese.

While the intent was to build the class around anti-mage, it's anti-everything. The class's only flavor is: "lol I win with sword-chucks." It's apparent that the abilities were broadened so that the class is useful against non-mages. This entire class is constructed on the basis that any Wizard the party faces is a fully optimized batman. And if we think that dwarves have fighters as their favored class, well, they've already won.

A fighter is more than a damage dealer and an off-tank. A fighter is a combat specialist; while a ranger is left in the woods and wilderness making Knowledge (Nature) checks to know that bears defecate in the woods, a barbarian is crazed and gains bursts of powers at a considerable costs, and a paladin is a champion of good and hope, the fighter has the freedom to absorb any combat style, and combine his experience and skill together to overcome any obstacle in any situation.

As far as combat is concerned, a fighter is not a "grizzled killing machine" inasmuch as he is versatile combatant. He knows his tactics, he is not limited to two tropes of being pure ranged or pure two-weapon fighting, nor is he useful for running into combat and slaughtering things, and nor is he useful against undead and being a buzz kill at parties. Your Fighter variant ignores what a Fighter can be, assumes the feat chains are natural, but underpowered, and balances them with powers that... well... make any other combat-oriented class seem undesirable.

The only fun that class brings is that the fighter is a coffin nail coated with the barbs of the irukandji jellyfish. That you roll dice, and you don't die. Hardly ever.

I'd go back to the drawing board with this one.

[Grey Paladin]

Project Icarus: The original version worked like that, but I wanted to see how this one works.

Lappy: Glad you like it.

Ozgun: Ack, I forgot of Power Critical- I'll add it to the exceptions.

Does the class seem otherwise fine? do recall every other OGL class is being rewritten to fit this powerlevel- compare it strictly to the Wizard.

Neek: Again, your claims of overpowerdness are valid, but this class was not optimized for the height of Batman, merely the easily achievable middle-ground.

Do not compare it to any OGL class beside the Wizard, as they are all being rewritten into a similar power-level.

And personally, I think the standard Fighter is what the Warrior NPC class should be.

[Noble Savant]

Hello, Noble Savant here. I am behind most of the fluff for this class.

Now, while I feel that Force of Will would be more acceptable if it granted regular 20s rather then natural ones, (I've always though of natural twenties as manifestations of superb luck), I really do like this class.

The abilities are powerful, but not overpowered assuming we take Grey's word that all the classes will be balanced to the average wizard. With his bonus feats, the Fighter still has the option of a versatile combat style. The new class simply gives all fighters a unifying power, and the flavor of highly disciplined fighting machines.

Fighters as they used to needed something more. I think this fills the void nicely.

[Samurai Jill]

By expending a use of Force of Will as a Free Action, a fighter may turn one of his attack rolls or a saving throws into a natural twenty...
...During a battle, speed is as vital as power. After enough repetition on the battlefield, these fighters have learned speed’s importance, and can make full attacks as standard actions.
Probably a little overpowered.

(the type of the save should be based on the spell and common sense- this ability can save someone from being trapped in a force cage, but not from a point-blank super-nova)
Recipe for arguments.

The Power Attack feats are unlikely to be especially useful, since any opponent you can hit with a -15 penalty to attack rolls is going down fast anyway. Transcendant power attack could be useful, though.

The Cleave chain seems okay.

The Combat Expertise chain is probably unbalanced. Even a +10 bonus is gonna wreck heads.

Combat Reflexes is also likely to be redundant. How often do you use AoO in battle, anyhows?

The Dodge chain is going to a pain in the ass to keep track of designated opponents.

The Fortitude/Reflex/Will feats seem mostly harmless-ish. I think.




While the intent was to build the class around anti-mage, it's anti-everything. The class's only flavor is: "lol I win with sword-chucks." It's apparent that the abilities were broadened so that the class is useful against non-mages. This entire class is constructed on the basis that any Wizard the party faces is a fully optimized batman. And if we think that dwarves have fighters as their favored class, well, they've already won.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to more or less agree with this. 3e isn't really my line of expertise, but I'm not sure this is really Gamist-safe material.

Except...

...the fighter has the freedom to absorb any combat style, and combine his experience and skill together to overcome any obstacle in any situation.
If that's your build philosophy, then why on earth are you playing D&D? The whole POINT to class-based character advancement is that you get to powergame at the price of a straitjacket! When there's an assortment of other classes available which will outperform the fighter in all the most common specialised situations, and you travel in parties, that makes the fighter a jack of all trades and master of none- i.e, redundant.

[Neek]

Neek: Again, your claims of overpowerdness are valid, but this class was not optimized for the height of Batman, merely the easily achievable middle-ground.

Have you playtested this class to even test the power, or did you eyeball it?


Except...

If that's your build philosophy, then why on earth are you playing D&D? The whole POINT to class-based character advancement is that you get to powergame at the price of a straitjacket! When there's an assortment of other classes available which will outperform the fighter in all the most common specialised situations, and you travel in parties, that makes the fighter a jack of all trades and master of none- i.e, redundant.

I never said third edition got it right, nor did I say the fighter was a jack of all trades. I was speaking strictly in a martial sense, not in an everything sense (my fault for not specifying). The fighter is supposed to be a martial expert, a flexible sword-swinger. And I've yet to see an alternative build get that much right.

[Deepblue706]

Hmm...

You got the 'bonus feat' idea right. Fighters should get bonus feats.

[Samurai Jill]

I never said third edition got it right, nor did I say the fighter was a jack of all trades. I was speaking strictly in a martial sense, not in an everything sense (my fault for not specifying). The fighter is supposed to be a martial expert, a flexible sword-swinger. And I've yet to see an alternative build get that much right.
It's impossible to get right, because the only way to make the fighter competitive with specialised classes is to fill some chink in the party line-up- i.e, to become specialised. It's not just a flaw in implementation, it's a flaw in concept.

[Grey Paladin]

Samurai Jill: Thanks for looking it over. I'll clarify the ability and fix the feats.

Like a Wizard, the way the class is built makes you powerful no matter what, but skill of play is still important. My aim is to make all classes powerful by default, but leave place for specialization.

In short, I'm attempting to balance everything on the powerlevel of a 'broken' class and get rid of Rule Mastery. Its not as if the much greater power level will break D&D- my Gamist group already took things twice their CR regularly with only one wizard.

Neek: Yeah, I play-tested it small-scale.

[Matthew]

The problem with rebuilding the fighter class is that "fighter" was intended as a "general" class. Trying to make him into a specific type of fighter like the knight or swashbuckler will always meet with a certain degree of resistance.

Saving Throws

This is a problem across the board with D20/3e and its unlikely that rebuilding the fighter alone can solve it. Giving the fighter good all round saving throws is fine, but it is out of whack with most other classes.

Skills

This actually is not the problem people make it out to be. The PHB is clear that the DM can allow additional skills and skill points traded against weapon proficiencies, and fighters have a lot of those.

Feat Chains

Unless you are using stacking bonuses, don't use these. Power Attack and Combat Expertise should just be one feat (as should Two Weapon Fighting, if that).

Rerolls

Rerolls are fine, automatic twenties are going too far. They should probably use up Immediate Actions, though.

Class Abilities

I think this is probably too complicated and too specific for a general class like fighter. My suggestion would be to make every level a feat (for a total of 27 feats, 28 if human), but allow them to be exchanged for the class abilities of particular classes of the same level. So a third level fighter could exchange his bonus feat at that level to gain the insightful strike ability of the swashbuckler instead (obviously, improved versions will require the normal versions be acquired first).

Sure, this will mean you can build a more effective swashbuckler et al by using the fighter class, but that's kind of the point. :D

[Random NPC]

This guy's broken. Too much, too good, too fast:

All saves = no good. Just fort is just good. You can give him bonus to the saves later with your nice little ability, which also needs a modification.

Force of Will

This be OP at earlier levels. I would totally modify it to act more like Action Points from Eberron. Instead of the Critical, you could give the Fighter a bonus to any d20 he rolls. When you expend a Force of Will point, you can roll a d4 and add it to any d20 roll. It should also scale at each tier. You also shouldn't be able to use them a lot of times per round, but not just one.

{table=head]Tier|Dice Bonus|Number of Uses per round

Rookie|
1d4|
1

Warrior|
1d6|
2

Champion|
1d8|
3

Avatar of Might|
2d6|
4

God of War|
3d6|
5[/table]

This scale slower than Action points because you can use them EACH DAY a number of time equal to your level + Wis Mod. Immediate action is good for this.

Rookie

Needs. More. Cowbell. This guy could use a little bit of something. Bonus to something. Weapons? Styles? Feats? Maybe mark a weapon as your own and you can use it really, really well? What sounds really good for this class feature is giving a bonus to a Saving Throw equal to your class level if you expend a Force of Will point, but I would then bump this to second level.

Warrior

Overpowered if no use of Force of will is needed.

Champion

12 + Fighter level SR with the use of a Force of Will point seems fair to me.

Avatar of Might and God of War

The power level is too much for me and this two features really need a reworking

[Samurai Jill]

I think this is probably too complicated and too specific for a general class like fighter. My suggestion would be to make every level a feat (for a total of 27 feats, 28 if human), but allow them to be exchanged for the class abilities of particular classes of the same level. So a third level fighter could exchange his bonus feat at that level to gain the insightful strike ability of the swashbuckler instead (obviously, improved versions will require the normal versions be acquired first).
I am almost certain this is likely to be horribly unbalanced.

[Matthew]

I am almost certain this is likely to be horribly unbalanced.

It depends what the list of exchangable class abilities looks like, and your definition of balanced (which depends on what you are balancing it against). As far as feats go, I deem it unlikely that an additional nine fighter feats spread over twenty levels will make too much of a difference. It will certainly be a better choice than most other martial classes, but as I said that is rather the point.

[Samurai Jill]

Oh, 1 feat per level would probably be a perfectly valid balancing choice. Heck, that way you could throw out the entire notion of "classes" in the first place, as long as you had a well-designed feat tree.

But... being able to pick and choose class features from any other martial class raises the problem that A. some classes are apt to be heavily front-or-back loaded, and B. some combinations of class features are greater than the sum of their parts (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801).

I hate to be the one saying this, but if your objective is simply to balance the respective game classes in a consistent and break-resistant fashion, you should probably be taking 4e as a starting point.

[Matthew]

But... being able to pick and choose class features from any other martial class raises the problem that A. some classes are apt to be heavily front-or-back loaded, and B. some combinations of class features are greater than the sum of their parts (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801).

I hate to be the one saying this, but if your objective is simply to balance the respective game classes in a consistent and break-resistant fashion, you should probably be taking 4e as a starting point.

I think you are hugely misunderstanding me. I am not saying you can choose any class features you like, nor indeed that you would gain all of the ones that a class had at a particular level. I did try to be clear about this, you would get to choose one class feature from a limited number of classes in order to mimic that class. So, you could probably choose something like favoured enemy or Lion Pounce (or whatever it's called), but not shapechange. Again, though, that depends on the list.

Let's not bring D20/4e into this. I think it is a safe bet that if somebody is trying to rebuild the fighter for D20/3e they either aren't interested in D20/4e, or have already stolen what they wanted.

[Samurai Jill]

I think you are hugely misunderstanding me. I am not saying you can choose any class features you like, nor indeed that you would gain all of the ones that a class had at a particular level. I did try to be clear about this, you would get to choose one class feature from a limited number of classes in order to mimic that class. So, you could probably choose something like favoured enemy or Lion Pounce (or whatever it's called), but not shapechange. Again, though, that depends on the list.
I'm sorry, but all you're doing is limiting the damage here. The only way to avoid unexpected breakdowns is to exhaustively analyse all possible feature permutations and ensure no disproportionate mathematical ratios emerge, which rapidly becomes impossible as the number of basic options grows. You have to eliminate the capacity for these problems to emerge, by design, from the ground up.

Let's not bring D20/4e into this. I think it is a safe bet that if somebody is trying to rebuild the fighter for D20/3e they either aren't interested in D20/4e, or have already stolen what they wanted.
And I think it's a safe bet he'll bet wind up having to imitate it in several key respects regardless. It happens to be a valid comparison for the discussion.

[Oslecamo]

For someone who's suposed to be a fighter, this class surely has a lot of fear from magic.

[Elder Brain]

I agree with the exchange of feats for class features, but the list would have to be pure-mundane stuff, but also more limited than the class feature.

For example, a Player decides to play a Fighter, but wants the Monk's Unarmed Damage. I say he gets it, but his base damage should start out at 1d4 instead of 1d6. (assuming the Fighter is Medium-Sized)

That way, his unarmed base attack would deal a reasonable amount of damage, but not as much as a monk of the same level.

*I'd say more, but my views on the Warrior/Champion/God of War have already been stated. Cool names, though.

[Matthew]

I'm sorry, but all you're doing is limiting the damage here. The only way to avoid unexpected breakdowns is to exhaustively analyse all possible feature permutations and ensure no disproportionate mathematical ratios emerge, which rapidly becomes impossible as the number of basic options grows. You have to eliminate the capacity for these problems to emerge, by design, from the ground up.

I seriously doubt you have investigated this idea in enough depth to make wide ranging claims of this sort (especially since the idea itself barely exists). We all know that D20/3e is unbalanced, it is always about limiting the damage.



And I think it's a safe bet he'll bet wind up having to imitate it in several key respects regardless. It happens to be a valid comparison for the discussion.
Whether valid or no, your choice to bring it up may do more harm than good in the context of a D20/3e fighter rebuild.



I agree with the exchange of feats for class features, but the list would have to be pure-mundane stuff, but also more limited than the class feature.

For example, a Player decides to play a Fighter, but wants the Monk's Unarmed Damage. I say he gets it, but his base damage should start out at 1d4 instead of 1d6. (assuming the Fighter is Medium-Sized)

That way, his unarmed base attack would deal a reasonable amount of damage, but not as much as a monk of the same level.

Yep, if something that scales by level is introduced to the list, it would have to be handled very carefully.

[Samurai Jill]

...We all know that D20/3e is unbalanced, it is always about limiting the damage.
It might be, if the OP's explicit objective weren't to balance all the classes.

Whether valid or no, your choice to bring it up may do more harm than good in the context of a D20/3e fighter rebuild.
It's a Gamist group, comfortable with D&D, that wants to play with balanced classes. 4e seems a fairly natural progression. Attempting to salvage the 'original flavour' of the Fighter class AND making it competitive is probably an exercise in futility, for reasons I've already stated.

Samurai Jill: Thanks for looking it over. I'll clarify the ability and fix the feats.

Like a Wizard, the way the class is built makes you powerful no matter what, but skill of play is still important. My aim is to make all classes powerful by default, but leave place for specialization.

In short, I'm attempting to balance everything on the powerlevel of a 'broken' class and get rid of Rule Mastery. Its not as if the much greater power level will break D&D- my Gamist group already took things twice their CR regularly with only one wizard.
I think Rules Mastery, in essence, is skill in play within the Gamist context. Having a set of tactical options that are uniformly effective is just as bad as having a set of tactical options that are uniformly ineffective. Power is completely relative, as you point out, so if 'basic' power levels are well-matched, interest in play comes from how you specialise your tactics to complement eachother, both situationally and in the long term, thus allowing each player to step up and shine under the right circumstances.

[Grey Paladin]

Jill: I've kept the bonus feats mostly so people won't complain about lack of versatility.

Didn't seem to work as well as I hoped.

The reason I'm sticking to 3.75 is due to the Simulationism being a secondary goal- we can suspend our disbelief for 3.X (as unrealistic as it is), but 4E doesn't even asks you to attempt and do so.

EDIT: Rule Mastery refers to a practice originating in M:TG- purposefully printing bad cards to trick newbies into using them. my design philosophy is Survival of the Fittest- if there is no advantage for X over Y, X shouldn't be presented as an equally valid option, or at all.

All options should start at equal footing- their actual use and combination should be what puts you above or below others.

Matthew: That's actually not a bad idea if I'm going for a full OGL rewrite anyway- mind if I write it and give you credit?

Oslecamo: Because in our world, Soldiers don't to fear missiles.

Random NPC: This is a nice rewrite, but it lowers it to tier 2-3.

[Matthew]

It might be, if the OP's explicit objective weren't to balance all the classes.

Unfortunately, determining whether something is balanced turns on what it is balanced against. This class currently exists balanced against a whole bunch of unabalanced classes. Something more can be said in terms of balance when a second class is revealed, but until then it is not worth worrying about.



It's a Gamist group, comfortable with D&D, that wants to play with balanced classes. 4e seems a fairly natural progression. Attempting to salvage the 'original flavour' of the Fighter class AND making it competitive is probably an exercise in futility, for reasons I've already stated.

To be frank, I not really interested in discussing this class in the context of GNS. If you have some specific concerns, feel free to raise them.



Matthew: That's actually not a bad idea if I'm going for a full OGL rewrite anyway- mind if I write it and give you credit?

Sure, no problem. Don't worry about crediting me, though, I doubt I am the first to think it up in any case.

[Samurai Jill]

Unfortunately, determining whether something is balanced turns on what it is balanced against.
Determining whether a class is balanced requires being able to analyse all possible builds of that class. This is impossible given the framework you suggest.


Jill: I've kept the bonus feats mostly so people won't complain about lack of versatility.

Didn't seem to work as well as I hoped.

The reason I'm sticking to 3.75 is due to the Simulationism being a secondary goal- we can suspend our disbelief for 3.X (as unrealistic as it is), but 4E doesn't even asks you to attempt and do so.
Ah, I see. Okay, fair enough. ...I will then assume that you don't want to simply move on to GURPS or something similar...

See, here is the problem with making the Fighter both competitive and versatile: You then render any other class with which it shares overlapping functionality obsolete. e.g- if you make the fighter good enough to compete with, say, the Barbarian, than no-one in their right mind will play the Barbarian, since the Barbarian is then, essentially, a straitjacketed form of Fighter. A class needs specialisation, or the only way it can go toe-to-toe with a variety of specialised classes is by rendering them redundant. (The Bard and Mystic Theurge are other classes that suffered from jack-of-all-trades syndrome.)

Now, you could actually go ahead and embrace this- design a set of feat chains that allow you, basically, to replicate the Barbarian or Ranger-minus-spells or, heck, even the Monk, which would be a fascinating intellectual exercise and avoid the pitfalls I've outlined. As I've mentioned, take this approach far enough and you could abolish classes entirely, or at least reduce them greatly in number. It might also suit your simulationist agenda quite nicely.

[Matthew]

Oh, right, we're just going to trust to luck that the arbitrary selection of 'suitable' classes picked will have an average effectiveness suitable for the context. Not that their average effectiveness would have any relation to that of a class which gets to pick the best of all possible class features.
Balance happens by design.

I am not sure how you could have reached that conclusion from what I have suggested. Either you are willfully misunderstanding the intent, or you really have missed the point. To restate: the idea is to design a list of already existing class features in line with the power level of available feats. Some class features will not fit that paradigm, and will need to be excluded or modified.

[Grey Paladin]

Jill: You have an excellent point about Specialization, one which I did not consider due to me not reaching any sub-classes yet. I'll have to add a greater measure of niche protection.


I've already written a D20 system based upon picking one of the four Archtypes (Warrior, Caster, Agent, Gish) and buying (class sensetive) Ability Progressions- my group is mostly happy with this system, but I do not think its GURPS-level comlexity would appeal to the users of this board.

The people of this board constantly cry for balance, I figured I'd try and give them what they want by upping everything to the level of a Wizard instead of weakening the game's defining class. I mostly tried not to mess with the basic D&D mechanics too much so the class will seem familiar despite its alien design.

[bosssmiley]

Ah, another fighter fix. Another attempt to make the fighter more than just "warrior + some feats". Good luck with this one Grey Paladin.

My thoughts (the usual prejudices apply):
4+Int skill points/level
Add Knowledge:Dungeoneering, Knowledge:Geography, and some form of perception skills (Spot, Listen, Search) to Mooky McBlind's class skill list.
Restore the fighter's mastery of all weapons and scrap the "Rookie" non-ability. As an aside, you do know that the 1st level title in 1st Ed. *D&D days was "Veteran", right?
Move the Warrior class feature to 5th level. 5th is a dead level, 6th is already a gravy level.
Champion (the 10th level class feature) is Steel Heart Surge by another name, amirite?
Replace the feat chains with feats that scale by BAB (call them - I dunno - Enhanced Tactical Feats to avoid the "we fear change" factor). Add some other feats to make Mounted Combat, Archery, TWFing, Sword-and-Board speciality, inflicting status effects, etc. into rewarded life choices.
Make sure the feats are actually level appropriate abilities!
Simplify in-game implementation of the feats so there's less fiddly book-keeping involved in using them.
Eg:


Supreme Dodge [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 19, Greater Dodge, Avatar of Might Title or Level 20.
Benefit: During your action, you designate up to 8 opponents and receive a +4 Dodge Armor Class against attacks from them. You can select new targets every action.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses

(a feat that gives you another +1 to Dodge AC against two more opponents? Am I supposed to actually choose this at 15th level? :smallconfused:)

should change to something like:


Supreme Dodge [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Avatar of Might class feature {no Dex requirement}
Benefit: Your martial knowledge makes you slippery like an eel.
Any and all opponents of which you are aware suffer a 50% miss chance when trying to attack you. A condition which causes you to lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose this miss chance.
Capstone abilities (God of War) are meaningless except as a theoretical exercise. Integrate the feats that require the capstone as a pre-requisite into lower level feats, so they'll actually see some use in play.
Playtest the class against CR-appropriate opposition.

Oh, wait. I've just outlined the "Races of War" fighter.

[Matthew]

The people of this board constantly cry for balance, I figured I'd try and give them what they want by upping everything to the level of a Wizard instead of weakening the game's defining class. I mostly tried not to mess with the basic D&D mechanics too much so the class will seem familiar despite its alien design.

That is one of the interesting things about the whole D20/3e phenomonen and the Pathfinder project; that is to say, there is a whole segment of the fan base who like the game to be unbalanced. Even though many people on this board often complain about the lack of balance in the game, it seems that they take great pleasure in isolating and presenting the exploits! That's really what the "Timmy Card" is all about, making you feel superior to other people and perhaps even the designers themselves. :smallbiggrin:

[Samurai Jill]

I am not sure how you could have reached that conclusion from what I have suggested. Either you are willfully misunderstanding the intent, or you really have missed the point. To restate: the idea is to design a list of already existing class features in line with the power level of available feats. Some class features will not fit that paradigm, and will need to be excluded or modified.
I misunderstood. Glad to have that clarified, though I'm not sure sure it was entirely clear from your introduction.

...but allow them to be exchanged for the class abilities of particular classes of the same level. So a third level fighter could exchange his bonus feat at that level to gain the insightful strike ability of the swashbuckler instead (obviously, improved versions will require the normal versions be acquired first).



Jill: You have an excellent point about Specialization, one which I did not consider due to me not reaching any sub-classes yet. I'll have to add a greater measure of niche protection.

I've already written a D20 system based upon picking one of the four Archtypes (Warrior, Caster, Agent, Gish) and buying (class sensetive) Ability Progressions- my group is mostly happy with this system, but I do not think its GURPS-level comlexity would appeal to the users of this board.
That sounds fascinating. I'd love to see the outline for that.

The people of this board constantly cry for balance, I figured I'd try and give them what they want by upping everything to the level of a Wizard instead of weakening the game's defining class. I mostly tried not to mess with the basic D&D mechanics too much so the class will seem familiar despite its alien design.
So- wait, are you writing this to get feedback for your own group, or to get feedback on something you'd intend for general consumption?

I mean, if you want to preserve the familiarity of classes, you can simply use Background Templates, essentially as formalised examples of class builds, or use Lifepaths as a way to enforce realistic depiction of starting characters within the setting's social structure, but it wouldn't have any binding impact on how to build your character after level 1.

[Matthew]

I misunderstood. Glad to have that clarified, though I'm not sure sure it was entirely clear from your introduction.

No problem, and no harm done. I could certainly have been clearer about how I envisioned it working.

[Grey Paladin]

Bosssmiley: The 'Races of War' Fighter? :smallconfused:

Thanks for the input

I went for a 3.X metagame for the titles (its not like a Rookie actually has Hit-Points . . )

Warrior was originally at level 5, but it didn't actually do anything until level 6 if you straight-classed, so I bumped it up.

The feats were mostly a clumsy Proof-of-concept and place-holders, the Power Attack set was actually a nerf to somewhat balance Force of Will.

The wording of the feats was copy-pasted from the SRD, I only changed it where change was needed.

I find the CR system useless- we usually add 4 to each number for a challenging fight. Playtesting was short, but did take place.

EDIT:

Matthew:
I guess I shouldn't have assumed people actually wanted what they claimed they did. :smallbiggrin:

Jill:

I'll write a system outline which will seem less Arcane to an outsider and send it to you.

I'm looking for feedback for both, really- due to needing to play-test it we are starting a new arena-based campaign.

I actually included six fighting styles in the first design of this class instead of bonus feats (Bull, Cat, Bear, Fox, Owl, Eagle- one for each stat) but figured that people will complain about lack of versatility as is.

I'll use your idea for the revised version.

[thevorpalbunny]

The problem with rebuilding the fighter class is that "fighter" was intended as a "general" class. Trying to make him into a specific type of fighter like the knight or swashbuckler will always meet with a certain degree of resistance.

Saving Throws

This is a problem across the board with D20/3e and its unlikely that rebuilding the fighter alone can solve it. Giving the fighter good all round saving throws is fine, but it is out of whack with most other classes.

Skills

This actually is not the problem people make it out to be. The PHB is clear that the DM can allow additional skills and skill points traded against weapon proficiencies, and fighters have a lot of those.

Feat Chains

Unless you are using stacking bonuses, don't use these. Power Attack and Combat Expertise should just be one feat (as should Two Weapon Fighting, if that).

Rerolls

Rerolls are fine, automatic twenties are going too far. They should probably use up Immediate Actions, though.

Class Abilities

I think this is probably too complicated and too specific for a general class like fighter. My suggestion would be to make every level a feat (for a total of 27 feats, 28 if human), but allow them to be exchanged for the class abilities of particular classes of the same level. So a third level fighter could exchange his bonus feat at that level to gain the insightful strike ability of the swashbuckler instead (obviously, improved versions will require the normal versions be acquired first).

Sure, this will mean you can build a more effective swashbuckler et al by using the fighter class, but that's kind of the point. :D

I agree with this post, mostly.

Differences:
I think force of will should be a 20, but not count as a "natural" 20 for purposes of crits or automatic hits. Will cannot force a lucky strike, and it can only go so far (If you could never hit it otherwise, you still can't.) Rerolls seem like luck, not skill.

Feat Chains: Very much so. The only feat chain here worth taking is probably Dodge. The others are not very useful and eat up all the feats for little gain. The Title restriction is a very good idea.

Skills: I disagree here. Barbarians and Wizards should be the only ones with 2+lvl skill points. Them, Warrior, Adept, and Commoner.

Saves: Suboptimal, but so would be any of them as bad saves. Possibly bad saves, but allowing Force of Will uses for lvl/2 bonus (after rolling, before result)?

Class Abilities suggestion: Possibly too complicated of a proposal, but worth considering. Any class ability is very open-ended; I would make a list of feats requiring certain titles to be taken, but permitting various abilities (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Mettle, Insightful Strike, etc.)

[Draz74]

Jill:

I'll write a system outline which will seem less Arcane to an outsider and send it to you.

I'm looking for feedback for both, really- due to needing to play-test it we are starting a new arena-based campaign.

Since I've long been working on a Generic Classes system like Jill is describing, where class abilities are all defined by feats, I'd like to see this too. Sounds much more interesting than your Fighter Rewrite. :smallwink:

[Elder Brain]

Skills: I disagree here. Barbarians and Wizards should be the only ones with 2+lvl skill points. Them, Warrior, Adept, and Commoner.

Don't Barbarians get 4+int mod.?

[Samurai Jill]

I'll write a system outline which will seem less Arcane to an outsider and send it to you.

I'm looking for feedback for both, really- due to needing to play-test it we are starting a new arena-based campaign.

I actually included six fighting styles in the first design of this class instead of bonus feats (Bull, Cat, Bear, Fox, Owl, Eagle- one for each stat) but figured that people will complain about lack of versatility as is.

I'll use your idea for the revised version.
Sure, and I mean, feel free to post it publically. Heck, you could even design feats that substitute for skill points or BAB/saves (at the rate things are going, 5e will finally be able to abolish classes entirely.)

[Tengu_temp]

My review of the class:

Saves, skills et cetera - looks good to me, although I'd give them 4+Int skill points per level.

Force of Will - you get Wis+level uses, but per what? Per day? In total, and their number can only increase by leveling?

Warrior - good.

Champion - would be good, but in a game infested by RAWtards like DND who must have everything defined in 100% its effect needs to be described more precisely.

Avatar of Might - good.

God of War - so this guy can make two full attacks in a round? Hmm, not broken for a capstone level 20 ability.

Power Attack - should be two feats - Power Attack, without a cap other than BAB, and Transcendent Power Attack. Make it grant *1.5 bonus for two-handed weapons or they become useless, like they did in 3.0.

Cleave - there's no point in getting any but the first feat - if you're surrounded by enemies so weak you can drop them in one hit, then they are no challenge for you anyway.

Combat Expertise - same deal as Power Attack.

Combat Reflexes - good.

Dodge - just let it give you dodge bonus against all enemies. You said dodge bonuses stack with each other - so, does someone with Supreme Dodge have +10 or +4 AC?

Saving Throw feats - barely better than they were in 3.5, where they were useless.

---

If you wanted this class to be balanced with wizards, then I am afraid you failed - at lower levels it's extremely powerful, but gets overshadowed quickly. Too many dead levels - getting an extra feat or an extra use of Force of Will is not something that makes a level worthwhile on its own.
What fighters lack is not power, but options - this class would probably do decently in a pvp match against a wizard, but in a normal, cooperative game he still wouldn't be able to contribute to anything but playing whack-a-mole with enemies... if he can reach them before the wizard OHKOs them.

[thevorpalbunny]

Don't Barbarians get 4+int mod.?

Yes. They shouldn't.

[Grey Paladin]

The Vorpal Bunny: I like your last idea for Title-based ability progression- I think I'll combine it with Matthew's idea and a semi-generic

Tengu: Thanks for the feedback.

You are completely correct on the class needing more options rather then sheer power- I was hoping I could keep the Fighter a newbie-friendly class while making it viable instead of providing activated abilities/maneuvers but your post makes the flaw in my attempt painfully clear.


Okay, to combine all that was suggested ,what about this:

Everyone heal Non-Lethal Damage at a rate of Constitution Modifier+1/Round, to the minimum of 1.

Everyone gain a Defense value, equal to ArmorAC+Constitution Modifier.

Whenever you take Lethal Damage from a non-Critical attack, convert your Defense Value in points into non-Lethal damage.


Fighters get a Title (/Fighting style) at level 1, and get an additional Title for every 4 Fighter Levels. Each Title leads to a Title-Chain, but you can still take lower level Titles/Fighting Styles.

Each level, a Fighter gets a single Ability. Abilities can be augmented much like 3.5 Psionic Powers, but A) use Non-lethal damage as the cost instead of Power Points and B) can be triggered either once per an Attack (Full attack allows multiple activations- only one activation per an attack) as a free action, reflexively whenever X takes place and you can pay the cost, or as a Swift action.

Here's a basic 10-minute example:

MANTIS I

You may use your Dexterity Modifier instead of your Strength Modifier for the purpose of calculating your Attack Bonus and Damage with Light, One-handed weapons, or any one handed weapon if you leave your off-hand empty.

Jump, Balance, Sleight of Hand and Tumble are now Class Skills.

Power Attack
Trigger: Attack
Cost: X

You may take a penalty to your Attack Roll up to your Base Attack bonus-
add that much damage to this attack, or 1.5 that much damage if this attack is made with a two-handed weapon.

This penalty is reduced by X.

X cannot exceed your Base Attack Bonus.

Relentless Panther Technique
Trigger: A foe attempts to leave your threatened range
Cost: X

Make a free Attack of Opportunity against that opponent, if this attack hits the Opponent must succeed in a Fortitude save equal to the damage dealt by it or cease his movement.

You take the opponent's level as a Penalty to this attack's attack roll.

This penalty is reduced by X.

X cannot exceed your Base Attack Bonus.

Supreme Parry
Trigger: You are attacked
Cost: 2X
Gain a bonus to your AC equal to X against the attack that triggered this Ability.

X cannot exceed half your level rounded down.

Leap of Heaven
Trigger: Swift Action
Cost: X+Y

Immediately make up to Y Jump checks with a +X*Number of Titles bonus.

X cannot be above your Level, Y cannot be above the number of your Titles.


All Fighters Gain 4 skill Points a level and gain/heal an extra point of Defense/Non-Lethal Damage per a title.

P.S.: RAWtards is now officially part of my dictionary. 5/5 WRA

[thevorpalbunny]

I meant the titles you included in this class (Rookie, Champion, etc.) and don't quite understand what the titles are in this new idea. Definitely is too complicated for a Fighter.

[Thorin]

You shoul gain a Force of Will use /4 levels (total of 5 at level 20); and make the feat "extra force of will" ( PRereq: Force of Will: 2 uses. Effect: can take it multiple times, each one gives you another use of your Force of Will. Of course a Fighter could select this feat as his bonus feat).

This may balance a little.

And you should revise the broken abilities. Full attack as a standard action? Yeah right. It sounds like an epic kind of ability, at least

[Noble Savant]

What is broken about a full attack as a standar action pray tell? The fact that you can draw a weapon and make an attack? Or move before it? There isn't a huge amount of abuse inherent in that, it's powerfull, but nowhere near broken.

[Thorin]

What is broken about a full attack as a standar action pray tell? The fact that you can draw a weapon and make an attack? Or move before it? There isn't a huge amount of abuse inherent in that, it's powerfull, but nowhere near broken.

Are you kidding me?
you can reach the caster and full attack him/her in the same round (high chances of knocking hir out, may I add)

And if you have played various campaigns in d&d (which i assume you have), you´ll know that there are several ways to "appear" at the caster side in one round (but as you could only make one attack it wasn´t THAT a big deal).

[thevorpalbunny]

Hmm. . . Full attack after moving vs. 6d6 Fireball. I'll take the fireball.

[Lappy9000]

Are you kidding me?
you can reach the caster and full attack him/her in the same round (high chances of knocking hir out, may I add)
Isn't that kind of the point? Especially what with cheese casters having a habit of blowing fighters to smithereenes (or polymorphing them into laundry detergent).

[lesser_minion]

The people of this board constantly cry for balance, I figured I'd try and give them what they want by upping everything to the level of a Wizard instead of weakening the game's defining class. I mostly tried not to mess with the basic D&D mechanics too much so the class will seem familiar despite its alien design.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the balance issue here.

Balance isn't necessarily about Fighter going one-on-one with a wizard and not being reduced to a pair of smoking boots - the problem remains to do with a wizard being invulnerable while they can still hit stuff. You've just handed the same ability to a fighter, where there isn't really much justification for it in terms of fluff. Handing out this kind of power is only going to exacerbate the problems behind 3E - firstly, nobody will want to play a non-invincible character class and secondly, if everyone's invincible then the game becomes significantly harder.

In the end, for the game to remain fun, nothing should even be able to become invulnerable, let alone invincible. Unfortunately, that means that wizards are going to need toning down.


Yes. They shouldn't.

I'm not really sure about this. A Barbarian is far more skilled in his own particular fields than a fighter could ever be. Archetypal barbarians have far more use for skills like Survival, Craft and so on and far more opportunities to learn them than a fighter, who studies nothing except how to hit things.

Sorry to be constantly negative with this post - I think this fighter probably has potential, but I would prefer abilities that support other characters better - at low levels, for example, a fighter could prevent an opponent from making attacks of opportunity when he threatens them. At higher levels, it isn't hard to see a fighter disrupting active magic with his attacks (even ones that aren't dependent on concentration) - that evens the score between a fighter and a codzilla (a little - it gets hard to justify disrupting spells that weren't cast by the guy you just hit). A fighter would also become pretty adept at dodging attacks (I think decent reflex saves probably fit most fighter concepts).

Unfortunately, as I said above, you would still need to ensure that melee is an attractive option at high-level D&D in comparison with magic, and I'm not sure how you would be able to keep that without changing magic or magic users somehow.

[Grey Paladin]

Lesser_Minion: I know that the system will remain problematic, but people seem so heavily resistant to proper Wizard nerfs that I had to at least try to take the other path.

My ideal system has everyone hovering at tier 3 or so, with heavy niche protection.

Becoming 'invincible' is, in essence, another form of HP when you reach 1HKO attacks.

Any thoughts of my latest bare-bone suggestion? (^)

[lesser_minion]

Okay, to combine all that was suggested ,what about this:

Everyone heal Non-Lethal Damage at a rate of Constitution Modifier+1/Round, to the minimum of 1.

Abilities can be augmented much like 3.5 Psionic Powers, but A) use Non-lethal damage as the cost instead of Power Points and B) can be triggered either once per an Attack (Full attack allows multiple activations- only one activation per an attack) as a free action, reflexively whenever X takes place and you can pay the cost, or as a Swift action.

I think that might be a decent starting point for a re-work. I'm not sure about the continual tracking of nonlethal damage points - it might be easier to just say no in-combat healing and then heal all nonlethal damage after a short break. I suspect that then you might as well just hand out per encounter ability points, which aren't as abstract as per-day abilities. The abilities you get should still be realistic - personally I like the idea of just handing out a whole pile of combat maneuvers, streamlining them down and mildly nerfing codzilla and the wizards.

I don't think removing wizard invulnerability will be taken too badly - I don't think it's really such an epic nerf as everyone thinks it is - there are a lot of spells that would need reworking, but often it consists of minor tweaks like extending more spells to require some concentration in order to maintain and extending the casting time for teleportation type spells. That makes it more likely that a mundane can stop the BBEG escaping.