PDA

View Full Version : Help needed for explaining RPGs to rather... special new players



Drascin
2008-12-13, 09:20 AM
So, story... (spoilered for length)


Yesterday, I was drafted to accompany my family in an expedition through many toyshops, so that my little sis could pick what she wanted to ask for Christmas. As I helped her look (having a big brother is apparently most useful when you want to browse the uppermost shelves) she asked me what I'd ask for Christmas, myself. I answered truthfully - a new external drive, and a couple roleplaying game books. Of course, she had heard the term before, living with me, but she never was too curious. But now she was. She asked me what a roleplaying game was, and how does one play. Well... I sat down in the middle of the shop and explained as well as I could. I told her it's a group of people, each of them acting as one character and making a tale among them. I used the fact that right now I'm playing a mage in one game myself as an example, but "you could make anything you want as long as it fits the story - if you play a game of knights and princesses and such, you can't bring a girl with a bicycle, don't you think?"

"So anything if it fits the story?" "Well, that's the point" "And I could play a fairy like Tinkerbell, and fly, and do magic?" "A-yup" "And, and, a pokémon trainer?" "Well, yeah, but only if everyone else you played with was alright with playing a Pokemon story" "And you know how to play?" "The rules are in the books - we follow those rules so that everyone knows if your attacks hit, or if the evil witches manage to charm you, and no one can get angry because it's luck who decides. Knowing how to play is just a matter of reading the rules"

All this with about fifteen people looking at me intently and listening, I might add. I was trying to suppress laughter at the way the parents looked at me like I was some kind of alien. My mother wasn't bothering to repress her own laughter at our conversation, as well.

"Please teach me how to play! We can start this sunday! Mom, you can play with me as well, and I'm going to have a Happiny, and a Rapidash, and what pokémon do you want to have, mom, and...!"

"... ... ...now wait a second, Cris..." I tried to retort. But anyone here who has had a little sister knows that trying to resist the puppy dog eyes of a six year old (especially a kid as unbelievably adorable as my little sis) is beyond the ability of most grown people, plus I have many times prided myself on having a sister well on her way to all things geeky. So, I really couldn't refuse... and so agreed, not entirely sure to what I had agreed to and how would I manage. My mom was every bit as confused as I was, as well. I did manage, after haggling a lot, to get the little munchkin to give me a moratorium until next Sunday when I told her I needed to do some work first, at least...


Now, I'm sure to everyone reading that is funny. But now I have to teach a six year old girl and a forty-three year old woman, both of whom have absolutely no idea about the subject, how to play roleplaying games. And also have to make up a suitable campaign for these two in the Pokémon universe.

I need help. I have introduced many people to tabletops, but all of those had tried CRPGs, Zelda games, Warhammer, something that helped them get into the framework. How does one explain roleplaying to such two people, and how can one start a campaign that can introduce them to the roleplaying world? I spent an hour yesterday trying to explain to mom that yes, I direct everyone that is not the other players, and no, the game doesn't finish when someone wins, because in an RPG the point is not winning, because it's cooperative :smallsigh:.

Please, if anyone has any idea as to how I could make it easy for them to understand...

(On system, I guess I'll go with M&M 2nd. I have the manuals, and it's very easy for me to make NPCs and easy for them to attack. I might want to rework a more HP-ish damage mechanic to exploit familiarity with the pokemon videogames, though...)

Dogmantra
2008-12-13, 09:30 AM
If you're not dead set on going with M&M, I'd use Risus, it's a good way to introduce people to roleplaying, and if you homebrewed an HP system, it could be very similar to Pokemon. Then again, if you want to use M&M, you can completely disregard this post.

Grail
2008-12-13, 09:31 AM
IMNSHO, 6 years old is just too young. I wouldn't start with anyone younger than 10 personally.

If you are intending on doing this, don't use d20. The character sheet alone might be too intimidating for someone that young. Get a really basic system and free-form most of it. Tunnels and Trolls for example is super simple, Maelstrom is another easy system.

As to how to explain it.

Roleplaying is story-telling. It is literally that simple.

To use WW terminology explain it as you are the Storyteller. The other players play a single person in that story. You tell them what is happening and they say what they do in response and they get to roll dice to determine if they succeed or fail.

It is an analogy that works well enough and is in terms that a 6 year old should understand without getting too complicated.

Monstrodoom
2008-12-13, 10:22 AM
This seems like one situation where Tri-Stat might actually be useful!

Since, y'know, pokemon only really have like four attributes and a bunch of special abilities. M&M could suit it rather well - but in a lot of ways Tri-Stat is a far simpler engine and would be a lot easier to introduce to them. No explaining the difference between intelligence and wisdom, or weathering problems with these players keeping track of the myriad skills and creatures listed on their character sheet (assuming you treat pokemon as uses of the summon power, of course.)

Of course, since I'm mentioning free basic systems, GURPS is always pretty good.

I personally follow your leaning toward M&M though... mostly because I just love how quick and easy everything is, if you're familiar with it.

Thiel
2008-12-13, 10:55 AM
Make it simple. I have used a homemade d6 system to great effect. I'll have to look through my notes to confirm it, but the basics was as follows.
The basic roll was 3d6 and you rolled against the enemy's AC. If the enemy was particularly vulnerable to your attack, you added a d6 and if he was resistant you removed one.

Another important thing, throw balance to the wind.
The important thing here is getting your sister hooked. This is best achieved by making her "win." Nerf the enemies and fudge the rolls if you have to. Your mom might see through it, but she wont mind. Or at least she shouldn't.

Egiam
2008-12-13, 11:16 AM
Yeah, I agree. I think the only way I can see this succeeding would be to make your own version. I would see if you can go to your local hobbystore, see if they have some old common-rarity pokemon cards you can take for a buck. Maybe watch an episode with your sibling. Familiarize yourself with some basic pokemon.
Here's an idea. Make each pokemon have a certain amount of hit points. Roll a d6, subtract their "poke-strength", add theirs and take that as damage.
A pokemon regains all heal after the fight, but if it loses, you can't use the pokemon for 3 days. This means that every pokemon only has 2 stats (poke-strength and hp).
To retain interest occasionally have team rocket intervene.
after a while of playing that add 4e style encounter powers (+6 one atk, [B]pica-chuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!)
then weakness to certain pokemon (water pokemon vs. fire pokemon +3)
then dodging.

just an idea

Kurald Galain
2008-12-13, 11:19 AM
Or you can be evil and break out Pokethulhu :smallbiggrin:

Grynning
2008-12-13, 11:48 AM
Yeah, I agree. I think the only way I can see this succeeding would be to make your own version. I would see if you can go to your local hobbystore, see if they have some old common-rarity pokemon cards you can take for a buck. Maybe watch an episode with your sibling. Familiarize yourself with some basic pokemon.
Here's an idea. Make each pokemon have a certain amount of hit points. Roll a d6, subtract their "poke-strength", add theirs and take that as damage.
A pokemon regains all heal after the fight, but if it loses, you can't use the pokemon for 3 days. This means that every pokemon only has 2 stats (poke-strength and hp).


This is a solid idea. I would also recommend playing a few rounds of this free browser-based Pokemon game (http://www.pokemonbattlearena.net/). I used to play it for hours while taking tech support calls. It's actually pretty fun, and it will give you a good idea of how the Pokemon world works - Pokemon have types, and special attacks. Certain attacks work better against certain types, some don't work against certain types. That's really all there is to it.

Edit: That link isn't actually to the one I was thinking of, that one was apparently closed down. Looks like someone's made a new version, not sure how it compares.

endoperez
2008-12-13, 12:02 PM
Keep it simple, and make it a story.

You could explain it as a story or a book. You don't win against a book, you go from its beginning to its end and hopefully enjoy it. If you like it, you can read a sequel, which might even have the same characters.

Give them a goal they're trying to accomplish, probably something about trying to help a village or a pokemon. Plan for them to finish the whole first adventure in the first session, but keep it modular enough that you can make it shorter or longer as the players' attention span requires. Also, don't make it TOO important, in case your sister decides that her character goes catching butterflies instead of adventuring, because you don't want her to accidentally cause end of the world or anything.


It's probably best to not make fighting too important part of the adventure. It could have some simple "what poke-peg fits this plot-hole" puzzles (carry this message to the village, lassie-mon!) and other family-friendly things.

WickerNipple
2008-12-13, 12:04 PM
You can pull it off.

I don't know anything at all about Pokemon, but I ran a game for my mother and step-father when I was in my early teens because they were curious about what I was up to. And I've also included a pair of kids as young as 7 as guests in a game several years ago.

Both groups had a great time - and children are naturals at role-playing, they do it all the time without knowing exactly what is they're doing, and without a rules structure.

The game system you choose doesn't really make much of a difference, so long as you're familiar with it enough to ad lib as needed. The important thing with your sister is not to really bother trying to teach her the rules. Just find out what she wants to be, and make a character for her that you keep track of. Let her roll the dice, but you keep her character sheet and do the math for her.

Down the line, if the game keeps interest for her (and you!), slowly teach her how the rules work. Again: kids are naturals at games, and naturally curious.

Your mother's a different story, and the way to approach including her will depend on how much she wants to put into it and how much she wants to get out of it. If it's something she really wants to be involved in and is excited about, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to hand her a book and have her read it and ask you questions. If it's something she's doing mostly for your sister's sake - I'd say just treat her exactly like your sister. Talk her through what she wants to do, maybe even invent a character for her entirely if she's not being creative with it - and keep the sheets to yourself.

Players who don't really know what their characters are capable of doing, or how a role playing game works, but have a familiarity with the world (they've seen Pokemon on TV) may surprise you about how good they are at acting like they should and doing things they should.

This is really roleplaying at its purest - just raw interactive storytelling with you keeping track of the game mechanics to decide the outcome of their actions.

While it didn't really interest or inspire my mother/step-father in the long run, we had a great afternoon playing Top Secret almost 20 years ago. It will be more work for you than a normal session would be, but it can be a lot of fun.

-- Also -- everything endoperez said above.

Yahzi
2008-12-13, 12:07 PM
Please, if anyone has any idea as to how I could make it easy for them to understand...

Stop thinking of it as a role-playing game. At age 6, rules don't mean anything. Make up your own system on the fly. Tell a story, and at branching points (that is, when the NPCs need to decide what to do) ask her to roll a dice to see what happens. Reduce combats to "whoever rolls highest."

Also, she'll probably get bored with it inside of an hour.

Venerable
2008-12-13, 12:10 PM
If you're looking for a campaign goal, it sounds like your sister handed you one on a plate:

...and I'm going to have a Happiny, and a Rapidash, and...
That just screams "Quest!" Now, what must the characters overcome to get them?

Tengu_temp
2008-12-13, 12:11 PM
Or you can be evil and break out Pokethulhu :smallbiggrin:

Funny, that's exactly what I thought here as well.


If you're looking for a campaign goal, it sounds like your sister handed you one on a plate:

That just screams "Quest!" Now, what must the characters overcome to get them?

She meant that she wants to have them from the beginning, I think.

Mystral
2008-12-13, 12:14 PM
Another important thing

Don't think that it'll always be you that creates the story. Your sister will propably make suggestions about the things that can happen, or even outright state that there has to happen something. If she says that she's sure team rocket will catch all pokemon when they have a race, then let that happen, at least most of the time.

hamishspence
2008-12-13, 01:01 PM
Darths and Droids Webcomic shows this rather well- the input from the players affecting how the story goes- not so Railroady as DM of the Rings.

Drascin
2008-12-13, 06:19 PM
First, a heartfelt thanks to everyone who posted - it helps me a lot to discuss ideas when I'm trying to accomplish something.

And now, to try the answers... I'll not quote to avoid the zebra-post syndrome:

@Dogmantra: I will give Risus an eye. Thanks.

@Grail: You have to understand I would be doing the sheets, not her, not in any way. She'd tell me more or less what pokemon she wants and what attacks, and I'd extrapolate myself into stats. And if I tell her "this number is the accuracy of your attack, and this is the strength" she can certainly understand it. She does play pokemon diamond, after all. Even if she's not too good at it because she insists on using cuter pokemon which suck, like Happiny, and dies a lot :smalltongue:.

Plus take into account she's not exactly average as far as six year olds go. With most, I would not even think of trying. As is, given we're talking of a girl who already likes to invent stories (nonsensical as they are, because she still doesn't really get the concept of exposition, and doesn't seem to consider details such as where that big wolf came from despite the princess being indoors three seconds ago as important :smallbiggrin:), as long as I am fast on my feet, improvise a lot and don't mind explaining things half a dozen times, I foresee more problems with my mom than with her :smallamused:

@Monstrodoom: I did think of Tri-Stat, but my previous attempt at doing pokémon with it (yes, I have already tried RPGizing pokemon, only from the critter perspective then. I have friends that are very much into pokémon and asked me to try a couple sessions of being pokémon) was a tad irritating. I find M&M to be an improved Tri-Stat for most intents and purposes, really, that's why that was my first thought.

@Thiel: I want something slightly more elaborate, to have her start to accustom herself to dice... but your basic idea is good. Thanks! And I was going to to that last part anyway, believe me. The team she's assembling is technically really bad, but don't worry, she'll manage to make it work, somehow :smallwink:. Hey, from what I remember from watching the first two seasons as a kid, Ash in the anime wins despite most of his pokemon sucking a lot (come on, Pikachu?), so she should too. I'll just tell myself they're all level 80 :smalltongue:.

@Kurald: You say it in jest, but I did think of retrofitting that ruleset a bit. It's rather simple, and thought from the beginning to represent strange beings under the command of little kids, which is what Pokémon is all about :smallbiggrin:.

@Grynning: Oh, that's the least of my concerns. I used to play competitive pokemon around Smogon, even if I was never exactly top material - I know perfectly well how pokémon work. I could very well recite you the best attacks learned of almost a hundred pokémon. Where do you think the little girl got the interest on it? From watching her big bro crush Milotics, see Tyranitars driven before him, and hear the lamentations of their trainers :smallamused:.

@endoperez: Thanks. That did give me some ideas, and it'll help me put it into perspective for mom as well - I owe you one. Also
in case your sister decides that her character goes catching butterflies instead of adventuring
Oh, yes. That is totally her. The girl who, playing Smash Bros, suddenly decides to stop fighting and go for a walk in the stage and to pick up some food, just because. I will have to keep that in mind.

@WickedNipple: Infinite thanks. That helped me a lot, really. You and endoperez have been easily the most helpful intervention in this thread.

Though on your second point, 'fraid that no, I can't hand the book to mom because I usually buy my books in English (cheaper, and I understand it well anyway), and she doesn't have the first idea of English :smalltongue:. I'm going to have to make her sheet too, whatever system I choose.

@Yahzi: You think she'll get bored inside an hour? Really? I mean, my experiences say otherwise. Kids that age are surprisingly persistent when they get something in their heads, and extremely curious when it comes to stuff they are fans of.

@Venerable: No, no, she meant as her current team :smalltongue:.

@Mystral: Of course. I partly do that already in D&D with an audience of twenty-somethings, anyway - I only need to crank it up to eleven and let her. Certainly a good thing to always keep in mind, too.

@Hamishpence: Heh. Good comics, those. I have used DM of the Rings, myself, as one of my usual examples of everything a DM should not be.

Well, I think that's most of it. Now, with the reply finished, I think I'll go to bed, because eighteen hours awake are more than enough already.

LibraryOgre
2008-12-13, 06:38 PM
My suggestion would be Risus, or something similar.

Trainers, like your mom and your sister, would have 10 dice to spread amongst cliches... but only 4 of those could be in "Pokemon trainer." The other 6 would have to be in other things, like "Loud Doofus", "Team Rocket" or "Ambiguous Sexuality". Catching Pokemon means rolling "Pokemon Trainer" against some number from the Pokemon... maybe a fighting roll. The other cliches define what people are like, and other things they know.

Pokemon, on the other hand, would have dice in attacks, or perhaps elements. They'd only have a few dice to work with... maybe 5 (with the same limit of no more than 4 per cliche). Charizard* would have a 4 in Fire, but a 1 in Fighting, since he mostly sets things on fire, instead of hitting things with his tail or claws. You might have a Pikachu who's almost a martial artist... he has 3 in Fighting, and 2 in Electrical.

Pokemon fight by rolling a cliche against their opponent, with a bonus equal to something from their pokemon trainer (maybe another die roll... a +1 per multiple of 5 in Pokemon trainer comes to mind, but that might be a bit much for a 6 year old, though you might try it if your mom really wants her to have a head start on multiplication). Whoever gets higher hits the other Pokemon.

Most hits will do 1 point of damage, out of 5 HP. If you use a pokemon with a "superior" element (for example, a water pokemon when you're swinging your Charizard stick), then it will do more damage when it hits (2 or 3). When a Pokemon runs out of HP, it's defeated.

Just a quickie system.

For adventures, have them go searching for a Pokemon, and have to ask people about them, and think of ways to get information from the NPCs. Have another Pokemon trainer (maybe Team Rocket) trying to capture this Pokemon, and a third one trying to steal it from whoever gets it. Maybe they're trying to find someone's stolen pokeball with a valuable pokemon? You've probably seen more of the show than I have to guess what would be a plot your sister would like.

*I'd like to thank Nixon-Smiley High School Class of 2009 for inundating me with Pokemon terminology when I was their sixth grade history teacher. This Charizard is for you!

AslanCross
2008-12-13, 06:41 PM
So, story... (spoilered for length)


Yesterday, I was drafted to accompany my family in an expedition through many toyshops, so that my little sis could pick what she wanted to ask for Christmas. As I helped her look (having a big brother is apparently most useful when you want to browse the uppermost shelves) she asked me what I'd ask for Christmas, myself. I answered truthfully - a new external drive, and a couple roleplaying game books. Of course, she had heard the term before, living with me, but she never was too curious. But now she was. She asked me what a roleplaying game was, and how does one play. Well... I sat down in the middle of the shop and explained as well as I could. I told her it's a group of people, each of them acting as one character and making a tale among them. I used the fact that right now I'm playing a mage in one game myself as an example, but "you could make anything you want as long as it fits the story - if you play a game of knights and princesses and such, you can't bring a girl with a bicycle, don't you think?"

"So anything if it fits the story?" "Well, that's the point" "And I could play a fairy like Tinkerbell, and fly, and do magic?" "A-yup" "And, and, a pokémon trainer?" "Well, yeah, but only if everyone else you played with was alright with playing a Pokemon story" "And you know how to play?" "The rules are in the books - we follow those rules so that everyone knows if your attacks hit, or if the evil witches manage to charm you, and no one can get angry because it's luck who decides. Knowing how to play is just a matter of reading the rules"

All this with about fifteen people looking at me intently and listening, I might add. I was trying to suppress laughter at the way the parents looked at me like I was some kind of alien. My mother wasn't bothering to repress her own laughter at our conversation, as well.

"Please teach me how to play! We can start this sunday! Mom, you can play with me as well, and I'm going to have a Happiny, and a Rapidash, and what pokémon do you want to have, mom, and...!"

"... ... ...now wait a second, Cris..." I tried to retort. But anyone here who has had a little sister knows that trying to resist the puppy dog eyes of a six year old (especially a kid as unbelievably adorable as my little sis) is beyond the ability of most grown people, plus I have many times prided myself on having a sister well on her way to all things geeky. So, I really couldn't refuse... and so agreed, not entirely sure to what I had agreed to and how would I manage. My mom was every bit as confused as I was, as well. I did manage, after haggling a lot, to get the little munchkin to give me a moratorium until next Sunday when I told her I needed to do some work first, at least...


Now, I'm sure to everyone reading that is funny. But now I have to teach a six year old girl and a forty-three year old woman, both of whom have absolutely no idea about the subject, how to play roleplaying games. And also have to make up a suitable campaign for these two in the Pokémon universe.

I need help. I have introduced many people to tabletops, but all of those had tried CRPGs, Zelda games, Warhammer, something that helped them get into the framework. How does one explain roleplaying to such two people, and how can one start a campaign that can introduce them to the roleplaying world? I spent an hour yesterday trying to explain to mom that yes, I direct everyone that is not the other players, and no, the game doesn't finish when someone wins, because in an RPG the point is not winning, because it's cooperative :smallsigh:.

Please, if anyone has any idea as to how I could make it easy for them to understand...

(On system, I guess I'll go with M&M 2nd. I have the manuals, and it's very easy for me to make NPCs and easy for them to attack. I might want to rework a more HP-ish damage mechanic to exploit familiarity with the pokemon videogames, though...)

I think you were able to explain the "interactive storytelling" aspect well enough. Whenever I encounter people who ask me how roleplaying games work, that's the definition I use.
Now the rules are quite a different thing. o_o I honestly have no idea how to pull that off.

Grail
2008-12-13, 06:49 PM
Microlite20 (http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Macropedia/Microlite20) would be a good system for you to use. Don't know why I didn't think of it earlier.

WickerNipple
2008-12-13, 09:43 PM
@WickedNipple

Happily. Kids are made for this stuff, it's only as we grow older that we become convinced we need rules and other crap to keep us grounded. Have fun with it.

Re: English - Whatever. This is about you three having a good time with your sister. Who cares if she can't read the system.

And please tell us how it goes! Some of my best sessions have involved the really young or the completely inexperienced. Here you get to do both at once!

Starscream
2008-12-14, 09:51 AM
I'm not a pokemon fan, but I've played enough of the game and seen enough of the anime to get the gist.

Personally I think M&M is too complicated for a six year old, but it has the advantage that most pokemon abilities can be described easily in terms of super powers, so if you simplify it you can probably pull it off.

GURPS is another decent choice because it can be as simple or as complicated as you need, has a grillion supplements (at least one of which fits almost any situation), and is a bit more intuitive. On the other hand, I can't think of any particular books (with the possible exception of Supers) that would work well with pokemon. On the plus side it's one of the easiest systems to just make stuff up on the fly for.

Tunnels and Trolls is super simple to pick up, and is one of the few systems I think a six year old could handle without being overwhelmed. Unfortunately, it fits the setting even less than GURPS or M&M, so be prepared to do a lot of homebrewing.

Incidentally, the spoof D&D supplement "Bride of Portable Hole Full of Beer: The Book of Neurotic Fantasy" actually contains a prestige class called "ball master" which is basically a pokemon trainer explained in D&D terms. It's intended as a joke obviously, but might give you some inspiration on how to run such a concept in an rpg.

Edit:
Oh, and never use the phrase "you can't". Let her do what she wants, even if it significantly changes the game. Think of Sally in Darths and Droids. Sometimes plots are made to be broken.

Egiam
2009-02-18, 03:13 PM
So, uh.... How did it go?

elliott20
2009-02-19, 03:15 AM
how to explain it to someone: "it's like cops and robbers but with rules". It's that simple. Yes, it sounds absolutely silly, but that's what role playing is at it's core.

For system choice? I'd say do your own. Even more quickie system than Mark Hall: describe each pokemon (or characters even) with 3-4 different little phrases or adjectives (so you can cover basic characterization and special attacks).

whenever they fight, talk, or do anything that requires a contest/task resolution, have them roll a d6 against another d6. Highest one scores a hit. Have the winner describe how she achieved her victory or how she lost.

If, however, she can describe HOW her own characteristics factor into it, she gets a +1 for each characteristic she fits into it. On the other hand, if she can use the opponents characteristics against them (her character must be the one to do so), she can give you a -1 for each one she comes up with.

and just so each fight doesn't end in one roll, give her say, 3-5 hit points, with each victory round scoring one hit point of damage. First to hit 0 loses the contest/task. Apply the hit points not just to combat, but to social situations too.

there, you have a game. you don't even need to do the resolution this way. you could do it with say, I don't know, drawing cards.

one thing I want to encourage too is the idea of "say yes or roll dice". That is, whenever your players ask if they can do something, you either just say yes to it or you ask them to roll for it. the only time a "NO" is a valid answer is when it is really unreasonable and breaks the game.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-19, 11:47 AM
http://www.game-warden.com/starfox/Non_SF_related_stuff/JS47/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

Not as bad as some others, but still.