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View Full Version : Arcane Fusion, the spell.



BlackMage8217
2008-12-13, 05:54 PM
So, as amazing as the spell Arcane Fusion is, I have a few questions. If you want to apply a metamagic feat, are both spells effected by it or just one? I.e. Do I use Maximize Spell on Arcane Fusion making Orb of Cold's 15d6 and Magic Missile's 5d4 +5 both Maximized or do I have to choose one spell?

Then this raises further questions. With the feat Residual Magic, say I casted one Maximized Arcane Fusion with Orb of Cold in it. Would the second Arcane Fusion cast be totally Maximized or just the Orb of Cold in it, or not at all?

My goal is to effectively cast Arcane Fusion, Maximized, and then again the next turn to have Residual Magic Maximize the second one. Is that possible?

Reinboom
2008-12-13, 06:33 PM
Metamagic affects the effects of the spell you apply it to. The arcane fusion's effect is casting the other two spells, not the spells themselves.
So, the only decent metamagic on to it would be Quicken Spell, that I can think of at least. Unless you craftily metamagic abuse it.

AmberVael
2008-12-13, 06:43 PM
Twin spell could be an interesting metamagic too, I'd think...

The way I read it, Residual Metamagic could interact curiously with Arcane Fusion. Say, for example, that you cast an Empowered Magic Missile on one round, then in the next round cast Arcane Fusion (using an Orb spell and a Magic Missile)- the Magic Missile from Arcane Fusion could be Empowered.

Keld Denar
2008-12-13, 07:14 PM
I think Vael has it right. You can't Empower or Maximize AF. You can only apply MM to the spells you cast through it. The problem is, AF is a Sorc only spell, and Sorcs have the pesky problem of increased time. SO, unless you are using the sorcerer ACF(limited to time/day) or the feat (can't take till level 12? due to prereqs), its really hard for a sorc to apply MM to AF. Residual MM is one way to make it work, as Vael stated, by casting one spell before the AF, and then casting the spell as part of the AF. If you did have the ACF, you could combo something like Magic Missile (1st) + Maximized Magic Missile (4th). But you couldn't pump a Maximized Orb of Cold (7th) through it, because its too high for AF.

So no...you don't actually apply the MM to AF. It doesn't work that way.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-13, 07:30 PM
I think Vael has it right. You can't Empower or Maximize AF. You can only apply MM to the spells you cast through it. The problem is, AF is a Sorc only spell, and Sorcs have the pesky problem of increased time. SO, unless you are using the sorcerer ACF(limited to time/day) or the feat (can't take till level 12? due to prereqs), its really hard for a sorc to apply MM to AF. Residual MM is one way to make it work, as Vael stated, by casting one spell before the AF, and then casting the spell as part of the AF. If you did have the ACF, you could combo something like Magic Missile (1st) + Maximized Magic Missile (4th). But you couldn't pump a Maximized Orb of Cold (7th) through it, because its too high for AF.
You can also pick up Arcane Spellsurge. Drops most casting times down 1 step (standard to Swift, Full-Round to standard, 2-10 rounds becomes 1-9 rounds). Still doesn't help with those one-round spells, mind...

BlackMage8217
2008-12-13, 07:48 PM
Crafty Metamagic use indeed. I spoke to a friend of mine about this and with a few feats this is a VERY interesting spell. The character I have is an Ultimate Magus. They have an ability where if you drop a spell from one spell casting class you can use a metamagic feat on the other class's spell. So a wizard's magic missile (lvl 1 spell) gives a sorcerer's silent spell for free (+1 lvl adjustment). I also have Practical Metamagic for all metamagic feats here.
Here's what we got so far:
Round 1
Quickened Arcane Fusion (lvl 3 Wizard spell) : Maximized Magic Missile (lvl 2 Wiz) + either Maximized Scorching Ray (Applied normally is a lvl 4 spell) or Orb of Cold (lvl 2 Wiz)
Twin Spell Arcane Fusion (lvl 3 Wiz) : Maximized Ray of Flame + Maximized Rainbow Beam or Blast of Flame, Maximized Orb of Electricity, Lesser + Belker's Claws or Firestride Exhalation
Round 2, Residual Magic
Repeat exactly what was previously cast in Round 1 but with no Metamagic Feats and they are automatically applied. Effectively 2 Rounds, 6 Maximized lvl 1 spells, 6 Maximized effective lvl 4 spells.
And for an added boost, if I put Empower on anything in the second round its Maximized and Empowered. I have to ask my DM but I think I'm right about it.

BlackMage8217
2008-12-13, 07:50 PM
O, and for the quicken problem, I took Metamagic Specialist instead of a familiar. It is a very nice little variant.

Keld Denar
2008-12-13, 07:54 PM
Holy Hemorrhaging Spell Slots Batman!

You might want to reread the UM's ability, because I distantly remember it being limited to one metamagic per round. Otherwise you could just blow all of your spell slots for a Split Twined Empowered Maximized Occular Spell Repeating Quickened Enervation, which I don't think you can. Hmmm, where did I leave my Complete Mage...

EDIT:
Ok, I reread it, and the thing is you can't apply metamagic to a spell that already has metamagic on it. Thus, what you are trying to do IS legal, but I hope you don't have to take part in more than 1 combat per day...HOLY CRAP!

BlackMage8217
2008-12-13, 08:44 PM
Yea, at lvl 10 Ultimate Magus, I can do the spell swap metamagic thing 8 times a day. If I only use that ability to use metamagic feats throughout this whole thing, you guessed it, it takes 8 uses. So I either have to run like the scared little kobold that I am if there is another combat or actually upscale my spell lvls.

Just calculated this using only Magic Missile and Scorching Ray.
as a lvl 2Sor/3Wiz/10Ultimate Magus this does 582 damage in two rounds. I also have the Knowledge Devotion feat. Assuming that gives me a +2 damage per ray and missile, that's a nice total of 702 damage in two rounds.

herrhauptmann
2008-12-13, 10:51 PM
Go on BM, take some cleric and mystic theurge in there too (use MT to advance the casting of your Ultimate Magus).
You'd get some terrible MAD, but I've been wondering for a while how well that would hold up in a real game. (crap at low levels definitely)

MeklorIlavator
2008-12-13, 11:03 PM
Go on BM, take some cleric and mystic theurge in there too (use MT to advance the casting of your Ultimate Magus).
You'd get some terrible MAD, but I've been wondering for a while how well that would hold up in a real game. (crap at low levels definitely)

I don't think you can use MT to advance Ultimate Magus casting, as magus only gives effective increases to other classes and lacks casting of its own.

BlackMage8217
2008-12-13, 11:39 PM
Yea, Ultimate Magus doesn't have spells of its own. MT basically is 1/2 arcane and 1/2 divine. UM is 1/2 spontaneous 1/2 prepared, all arcane. MT is good for the balance but it has no abilities UM actually has really good metamagic possibilities. Lol, see above for an amazing example. MT basically is just a cleric and wizard getting spells at the same time. UM is sorcerer and wizard getting spells with bonuses to CL and metamagics.

Keld Denar
2008-12-13, 11:40 PM
I don't think you can use MT to advance Ultimate Magus casting, as magus only gives effective increases to other classes and lacks casting of its own.

This is correct...otherwise you'd get some sick builds like
Wizard3/Cleric3/Druid3/Psion3/PsychicTheurge1/ArcaneHeirphant1/MysticTheurge10 or something, progressing PT and AH with MT...That would be silly...

herrhauptmann
2008-12-14, 12:15 AM
Oh I know it would be weak because it wouldn't get any of the extra abilities that Ultimate magus gets. But I figured: At say UM 3 (sorta forget which ones), you get a boost to only the lower of your arcane caster levels. So if you're UM 2, and MTX, taking the next level of MT would give you a boost to your divine as normal, but only boost your lower level arcane (same as your next level of UM would). But the consensus seems to be that it won't be allowed, in addition to not getting the neat things that make UM awesome.

I'll have to find a lenient DM who'll allow it I guess.


Sorry about hijacking the thread.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-14, 12:21 AM
Oh I know it would be weak because it wouldn't get any of the extra abilities that Ultimate magus gets. But I figured: At say UM 3 (sorta forget which ones), you get a boost to only the lower of your arcane caster levels. So if you're UM 2, and MTX, taking the next level of MT would give you a boost to your divine as normal, but only boost your lower level arcane (same as your next level of UM would). But the consensus seems to be that it won't be allowed, in addition to not getting the neat things that make UM awesome.

I'll have to find a lenient DM who'll allow it I guess.


Sorry about hijacking the thread.The way you do it is take UM first, then when you take levels of MT, it gives you "new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to". UM is an Arcane Class. This works with Cerebremancer and similar, too.

ImperiousLeader
2008-12-14, 01:24 AM
Metamagic affects the effects of the spell you apply it to. The arcane fusion's effect is casting the other two spells, not the spells themselves.
So, the only decent metamagic on to it would be Quicken Spell, that I can think of at least. Unless you craftily metamagic abuse it.

One Crafty Metamagic Abuse I heard was to use Sanctum Spell. A Sanctum spell, cast outside the sanctuary is treated as one level lower than it is. This means a Sanctum Arcane Fusion is a fourth level spell, a valid target for Arcane Fusion. This isn't my trick, and I don't currently have access to the relevant books, but this exploit could give you infinite 1st level spells.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-14, 01:36 AM
One Crafty Metamagic Abuse I heard was to use Sanctum Spell. A Sanctum spell, cast outside the sanctuary is treated as one level lower than it is. This means a Sanctum Arcane Fusion is a fourth level spell, a valid target for Arcane Fusion. This isn't my trick, and I don't currently have access to the relevant books, but this exploit could give you infinite 1st level spells.
You also need something to make Metamagic take a standard action, rather than a full-round action - Arcane Spellsurge takes care of that, but this was sorta fixed in errata - see, per the errata, Arcane Fusion is based on the adjusted spell level (e.g., the spell slot needed), not the effective spell level. But yeah, without that, two spells give you infinite 1st level spells until your opponent is dead from the Magic Missile Storm.

BlackMage8217
2008-12-14, 06:19 PM
As I said before, I dropped my Familiar for Metamagic Specialist. Metamagic feats don't increase my sorcerer casting time now. What book is Sanctum Spell in? I wanna read that!
Ok, found the book and read it. It doesn't actually lower the level of the spell. It only lowers the DC and such things. No infinite MMs for me.

legion
2009-05-22, 08:59 AM
I'm new to this board so cut me a small break with the questions below.

Where is 'arcane fusion from?"

Also, can you tell me where these spells are from?

Rainbow Beam
Blast of Flame
Belker's Claws
Firestride Exhalation
Residual Magic

Douglas
2009-05-22, 09:08 AM
The way you do it is take UM first, then when you take levels of MT, it gives you "new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to". UM is an Arcane Class. This works with Cerebremancer and similar, too.
Not without a very lenient DM. The by far most prevalent accepted definition of "arcane spellcasting class" around here for such purposes is "has its own arcane spellcasting progression independent of any other class". All base arcane casting classes qualify, Suel Arcanamach qualifies, Sublime Chord qualifies, Cerebremancer and Ultimate Magus do not.

AmberVael
2009-05-22, 09:08 AM
First, this thread is pretty old. Might want to check the dates before you post in a thread- thread necromancy is rather frowned on.

Arcane Fusion is from Complete Mage.

Residual Magic, as noted rather clearly in the first post, is a feat. It also comes from Complete Mage.

All the others can be found in the Spell Compendium (except Firestride Exhalation- I don't think that one exists. The name doesn't even make sense. There IS a spell called Fire Stride.)

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-22, 09:16 AM
Firestride Exhalation should be in Dragon Magic.

Remember children, Spell Compendium is not the end all, be all answer to your spell needs.

arguskos
2009-05-22, 09:20 AM
Firestride Exhalation should be in Dragon Magic.

Remember children, Spell Compendium is not the end all, be all answer to your spell needs.
No, it's just the best book printed for spells. :smalltongue:

Yes, yes, I know there are other books with good spells in them, but SpC is far and away the first stop for spells of any flavor.

AmberVael
2009-05-22, 09:21 AM
As this thread is discussing a spell not in the spell compendium, I should think that would be rather obvious, Rose. On the other hand, I'm just rather astonished that such a... well, for lack of a better word, stupid spell exists.

Seriously, traveling through a breath weapon? What? Eh? That has all the style and coolness of Rain of Superheated Tacos.

legion
2009-05-22, 09:29 AM
Why is necromancy frowned upon?

I found this thread about arcane fusion on google. So, I assumed it was a good source for what I was looking for. I would have put it on a different thread but my search box on this site is not working, so this is what I had to work with.

arguskos
2009-05-22, 09:36 AM
As this thread is discussing a spell not in the spell compendium, I should think that would be rather obvious, Rose. On the other hand, I'm just rather astonished that such a... well, for lack of a better word, stupid spell exists.

Seriously, traveling through a breath weapon? What? Eh? That has all the style and coolness of Rain of Superheated Tacos.
Hey, don't knock Rain of Superheated Tacos! Toss some Maximize Spell and Tastify Spell metamagics on there, and you get one crazy strong and tasty apocalypse!

As for *sigh* Firestride Exhalation, yeah, it's pretty /facepalm.

@legion:
Thread Necromancy is prohibited by the board rules, if I recall correctly. If it's not, it's still highly disliked, mostly because it brings up old and out-of-date information, and clogs up the forum with conversations we've already finished. Course, you probably didn't know any of that, so it's no big deal. Just keep it in mind, yah? :smallcool:

legion
2009-05-22, 09:42 AM
No, I did not know that about necromancy. Thanks.

arguskos
2009-05-22, 09:49 AM
No, I did not know that about necromancy. Thanks.
Sure thing legion. Like I said, ain't no big deal, just something to avoid if possible.

Anyways, did you have any further Arcane Fusion questions? Might as well ask while you're here. :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2009-05-22, 09:53 AM
Yea, check the date on the last post. If its older than ~6 month, just make a new thread. Its not like making a new thread is hard. Or better yet, post in the Quick Question thread. Lots of people patrol that thread pretty hard and can answer you in seconds.

I'd HIGHLY recommend reading the forum rules. You can find them linked...pretty much all over. Generally a good idea. This one tends to be a lot more heavily moderated than other forums you may be used to. (Hi Roland! We <3 you!)

PS, welcome to the community! If you have any other questions, feel free to ask! Just make a new thread.

legion
2009-05-22, 09:54 AM
I was not sure if arcane fusion was a spell or a feat. I thought it was a spell, but also thought there was a PrC with a virtual feat or class ability with the same name.

What does arcane fusion do as a spell, and what level is it?

Thanks again.

arguskos
2009-05-22, 10:07 AM
(Hi Roland! We <3 you!)
/offers cookies and milk so that Roland, God of Moderators, doesn't come in here and smite us for being heathens.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/bloodydoves/cookies_and_milk_martini_compressed.jpg

Oh, and in answer to your question, I believe that Arcane Fusion is a sorcerer only spell of the 6th rank of power. It permits you to blend two 4th or lower-level spells together in one casting, meaning you cast two spells at once. It's a rather nice little thing.

FMArthur
2009-05-22, 06:09 PM
It's a 5th level spell that lets you cast a 1st level and a 4th level spell (or lower) together as a standard action, if the spells themselves were standard action or faster.

Greater Arcane Fusion is much better; it's an 8th version of the spell that lets you cast a 4th level spell and a 7th level spell.