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SuperFish
2008-12-13, 08:05 PM
The feat.

It lets you make a free trip attack whenever you deal ten or more damage to an opponent in a single blow, right?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-13, 08:07 PM
Yep. It rocks in combo with Imp. Trip. watch someone come in here with the FAQ

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-13, 08:08 PM
KNOCK-DOWN [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.

Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

SRD link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html).

Was there an actual question, too?

SuperFish
2008-12-13, 10:23 PM
No, I just needed to make sure I knew exactly what the feat did, since I couldn't find it on Crystal Keep.

*marks on list to take as feat for Wolf Totem Barbarian currently being played*

Thanks.

EDIT: Ah, I knew I had seen it somewhere else. The SRD, that tricky site with the separate place for feats from Deities and Demigods or whatever.

Eldariel
2008-12-13, 10:36 PM
Yea, all SRD-stuff is official 3.5, but sometimes it's damn hard to find specific feats there. It took me aeons to realize that "Psionic Feats" actually means "feats from Expanded Psionics Handbook" and contained hits like Stand Still, Greater Manyshot and company, and that Epic Feats actually contains a few really important non-Epic feats like Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting, Improved Multiattack, Improved Flyby Attack and so on, and indeed that Divine Feats contains a huge ton of perfectly normal feats (a ton of metamagic, Knock-Down, Sharpshooting, etc.) of great value.

Indeed, an SRD-only game is far from the dull scapes of PHB/MM/DMG game even without allowing Psionics (but why wouldn't you?), and there's a lot you can successfully do there.

herrhauptmann
2008-12-13, 10:58 PM
Question: If you fail the trip attempt after dealing damage, can your victim attempt to trip you in return?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-13, 11:01 PM
Question: If you fail the trip attempt after dealing damage, can your victim attempt to trip you in return?

It dun' say. Take it with Improved Trip to be on the safe side, I guess.

Technically, since no exception is mentioned, you can indeed be tripped back if you fail when using Knockdown. It makes no sense, though, so it may be easy to persuade a DM that the feat should also exempt you from counter-trips (but only those made in response to failed Knockdown attempt).

Edit: Great job not reading the feat, me! It requires Improved Trip anyway.

herrhauptmann
2008-12-14, 12:33 AM
I wouldn't have asked, but I've seen the Vae School feat from Drow of Underdark... While flanking with a chain, once per round that you deal damage, you can make a free trip attempt. If you fail, you cannot be tripped in return.

If I hadn't seen vae school, I'd have just accepted whatever DM told me.

Eldariel
2008-12-14, 07:26 AM
Knock-Down is no Vae School. Unless a feat specifically states something, go with the standard.

Quietus
2008-12-14, 08:53 AM
Keep in mind, a successful trip from Knock-Down does NOT give you a free attack against the prone opponent. Knock-Down simply switches your line of actions (with Improved Trip) from Trip->Possible free attack, to Attack->Possible free trip.

SuperFish
2008-12-14, 10:33 AM
Maybe not, but if I knock them down, as it were, on the first hit, I can pummel them with later attacks as they lie helplessly on the ground.:smallbiggrin:

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-12-14, 11:49 AM
Maybe not, but if I knock them down, as it were, on the first hit, I can pummel them with later attacks as they lie helplessly on the ground.:smallbiggrin:

Exactly what Tripping is for :smallcool:

herrhauptmann
2008-12-14, 01:57 PM
Knock-Down is no Vae School.

No kidding. Vae school requires flanking and can be done only once a turn, and has the exception specifically built in.
Knockdown just needs you to deal damage first.

MeklorIlavator
2008-12-14, 03:02 PM
Keep in mind, a successful trip from Knock-Down does NOT give you a free attack against the prone opponent. Knock-Down simply switches your line of actions (with Improved Trip) from Trip->Possible free attack, to Attack->Possible free trip.

Why don'y you get the free attack(assuming you have Improved Trip)?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-14, 09:06 PM
Why don'y you get the free attack(assuming you have Improved Trip)?

There's no exception mentioned in the Knockdown feat, so technically you do get it. But this is up to the DM again.

Knockdown is just a really badly written feat.

Stephen_E
2008-12-14, 09:19 PM
There's no exception mentioned in the Knockdown feat, so technically you do get it. But this is up to the DM again.

Knockdown is just a really badly written feat.

Knockdown does give you an extra attack.

You hit them, trip them, then hit them again while they're on the ground.

Why do you think it's a badly written feat. It does exactly what it says it does.


Knock-Down [General]
Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.

Benefit
Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.



Stephen E

Stephen_E
2008-12-14, 09:24 PM
It's also worth noting that you can always be tripped back on a failed trip attack unless it specifically says you can't.

I'm unclear why anyone would think this wouldn't make sense with the Knockdown feat. Of course you do haveto be using a weapon that allows tripping, and if they do suceed in tripping you back you can just drop your weapon (Quick Draw is an excellent feat for any Trip build).

Stephen E

SuperFish
2008-12-14, 09:25 PM
But this is up to the DM again.

I am the DM, I was just asking for one of the players. Who may or may not also be me

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-14, 09:46 PM
Why do you think it's a badly written feat. It does exactly what it says it does.

Stephen E

Because it assumes the reader knows what the writer was thinking. There's no mention about how it interacts with the prerequisite feat.


It's also worth noting that you can always be tripped back on a failed trip attack unless it specifically says you can't.

I'm unclear why anyone would think this wouldn't make sense with the Knockdown feat. Of course you do haveto be using a weapon that allows tripping, and if they do suceed in tripping you back you can just drop your weapon (Quick Draw is an excellent feat for any Trip build).

Stephen E

Because it doesn't seem to make sense. You're not actually tripping anyone, you're hitting them so hard they fall on their ass.

Iku Rex
2008-12-14, 09:46 PM
Why don'y you get the free attack(assuming you have Improved Trip)?It's in the October 2002 errata (and the FAQ) for Sword and Fist.

Use of this feat [Knockdown] cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.

Whoever copied the feat into the SRD from Deities and Demigods apparently wasn't aware of the errata.

newbDM
2008-12-14, 10:14 PM
Yea, all SRD-stuff is official 3.5, but sometimes it's damn hard to find specific feats there. It took me aeons to realize that "Psionic Feats" actually means "feats from Expanded Psionics Handbook" and contained hits like Stand Still, Greater Manyshot and company, and that Epic Feats actually contains a few really important non-Epic feats like Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting, Improved Multiattack, Improved Flyby Attack and so on, and indeed that Divine Feats contains a huge ton of perfectly normal feats (a ton of metamagic, Knock-Down, Sharpshooting, etc.) of great value.

Indeed, an SRD-only game is far from the dull scapes of PHB/MM/DMG game even without allowing Psionics (but why wouldn't you?), and there's a lot you can successfully do there.

Thank you for the insightful information! That is all great to know.

Stephen_E
2008-12-14, 10:28 PM
Because it assumes the reader knows what the writer was thinking. There's no mention about how it interacts with the prerequisite feat.

It's a no win situation. If they say you can use Improved Trip to get an additional attack then someone will complain that it doesn't mention how it works with the hald dozen feats that also intereact with it.

The Faq did say at one point that so long as the trip came from as part of a normal attack them you could use Improved Trip to gain an extra attack.



Because it doesn't seem to make sense. You're not actually tripping anyone, you're hitting them so hard they fall on their ass.[/QUOTE]

That's an assumption you're making about where the trip attack comes from. I could just as easily claim that you're hitting them hard enough that you put them off balance and provide the opportunity to follow up with a trip attempt. Of course they can still counter and trip you back in that circumstance. For your scenario of where the trip is coming from you should look at the CW Hammer's Edge Style feat. It involves a Fort check or fall prone.

Stephen E

Stephen_E
2008-12-14, 10:31 PM
It's in the October 2002 errata (and the FAQ) for Sword and Fist.

Use of this feat [Knockdown] cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.

Whoever copied the feat into the SRD from Deities and Demigods apparently wasn't aware of the errata.


That was 3.0. This is 3.5. None of the errata for 3.0 applies to 3.5 unless it's been replicated in 3.5 errata or FAQs. Quite a lot of stuff was translated across in broad detail but without old errata/FAQs, or with entirely new stuff.

Stephen E

Mark Hall
2008-12-14, 10:44 PM
I'm seeing beauty in the idea of a ToB/Knockdown build... with a big sword and Cleave.

Keld Denar
2008-12-14, 10:55 PM
That was 3.0. This is 3.5. None of the errata for 3.0 applies to 3.5 unless it's been replicated in 3.5 errata or FAQs. Quite a lot of stuff was translated across in broad detail but without old errata/FAQs, or with entirely new stuff.

Stephen E

And this is blatently trying to pull a fast one on a DM. You KNOW that there was a fix for it, but that due to someones poor copy/paste job, it got left out. Its like working in construction, seeing a drawing that contains a specific safety feature that you know is required by law, then seeing a later revision of that drawing that doesn't contain the feature, and then not installing it. Its neglectful and petty, and in the real world, can get you in a boat load of trouble.

Now, I'm not gonna say this is RAW, because certain people will cite me certain signatures, but as a DM, if I knew a player wanted to use this feat and cited that reason, I'd disallow the feat alltogether. If they want to play with the errata, then I'd allow it. Knowingly neglecting the intent (and its more than RAI, if it was official errata at one point) just because the version changed is abuse. I love optimizers in games I DM, but I hate abusers.

Stephen_E
2008-12-14, 11:16 PM
And this is blatently trying to pull a fast one on a DM. You KNOW that there was a fix for it, but that due to someones poor copy/paste job, it got left out. Its like working in construction, seeing a drawing that contains a specific safety feature that you know is required by law, then seeing a later revision of that drawing that doesn't contain the feature, and then not installing it. Its neglectful and petty, and in the real world, can get you in a boat load of trouble.

Now, I'm not gonna say this is RAW, because certain people will cite me certain signatures, but as a DM, if I knew a player wanted to use this feat and cited that reason, I'd disallow the feat alltogether. If they want to play with the errata, then I'd allow it. Knowingly neglecting the intent (and its more than RAI, if it was official errata at one point) just because the version changed is abuse. I love optimizers in games I DM, but I hate abusers.

Rubbish. You are making an assumption that the feat is broken and needs fixing. I don't see the break. In 3.0 they decided to rule "x" way. In 3.5 they dropped that and let it go. This isn't the only thing they changed. 3.5 saw some things restricted and others lossened up.

What you're saying is as a DM playing 3.5 you'd say "tough, I'm playing 3.0 for this". Rine, that's your choice, but unless you make a case for it been overpowered I think you should lay of the accusatons that a player wanting to play the feat as per the rules is "pulling a fast one".

Stephen E

Curmudgeon
2008-12-14, 11:41 PM
I see no problem with allowing each feat to be taken exactly as written. You have Knock-Down, and if you do more than 10 points of damage in melee you get to attempt a trip, which may not work. You have Improved Trip, and if you succeed at the trip you may attempt a follow-up attack, which may not hit. There's no automatic success at any of these steps, and each successive step of the chain costs you another feat. Seems perfectly fine and balanced.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-14, 11:42 PM
FAQ doesn't count. Deities&Demigods was most recent and 3.5, so it overwrites the 3.0 errata for Sword and Fist. Knockdown gives you a free trip attempt with an attack, Imp Trip gives you a free attack with a Trip. No rule states they shouldn't interact.

Iku Rex
2008-12-15, 12:10 AM
FAQ doesn't count.Believe it or not, there are DMs out there who don't just treat the rules as computer code to be blindly obeyed.

Deities&Demigods was most recent and 3.5, so it overwrites the 3.0 errata for Sword and Fist. Deities and Demigods is 3.0. It was published April 2002, 7 months before the most up to date version of Knockdown in 3.0, the S&F errata from October 2002.


The argument here is that since they didn't include the errata when they copied it into the SRD, it is technically (THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT!!!!!) a legal 3.5 feat. And thus all DMs must [or should] allow it.

Iku Rex
2008-12-15, 12:25 AM
The feat:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown

Knock-Down [General]
Prerequisites

Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.
Benefit

Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.


Observations:

1. The trip attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) happens "whenever" you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee. You must do it.
2. A trip attack includes a touch attack. You must roll again to see if you hit.
3. No rule says you can't be counter-tripped.

Fishy
2008-12-15, 12:37 AM
Wow. That suddenly makes the feat really, really lame.

It's a trip attack, and not like the free trip attempt that wolves and astral constructs get?


EDIT: Hang on, the second line of the S&F errata says to insert a 'may'. So... if you rule one way, you get an extra attack, and if you rule the other, the trip is optional?

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 12:47 AM
I don't think there would be the roll to touch on a Knockdown. The hit that did 10 points IS the roll to hit...but I guess it isn't clear. I'd say it is simply because look at this situation...

Fighter10/ExoticWeaponMaster1
Relevant features: Improved Trip, Knockdown, EWP: Spiked Chain, Flurry of Strikes(EWM), Haste.
Attack sequence before buffs(other than Haste), str, and misc = +10/+10/+10/+5/+0

Facing 5 seperate enemies, all standing
Attack rolls:

Roll d20 1st attack, 1st target, does 10+ damage
Roll d20 touch attack
Roll d20 opposed trip roll
Roll d20 followup attack

Roll d20 2nd attack, 2nd target, does 10+ damage
Roll d20 touch attack
Roll d20 opposed trip roll
Roll d20 followup attack

Roll d20 3rd attack, 3rd target, does 10+ damage
Roll d20 touch attack
Roll d20 opposed trip roll
Roll d20 followup attack

Roll d20 4th attack, 4th target, does 10+ damage
Roll d20 touch attack
Roll d20 opposed trip roll
Roll d20 followup attack

Roll d20 5th attack, 5th target, does 10+ damage
Roll d20 touch attack
Roll d20 opposed trip roll
Roll d20 followup attack

Congrats, you've made 20 d20 rolls in a single full attack action, and forced the DM to make 5 more on top of yours. Thats assuming that all trips were successful, which they probably all weren't, and that all initial attacks hit, which they probably all didn't. Still, thats a lot of dice to bog down a players turn. Forcing half a dozen saves isn't nearly as tedeous as this.

Iku Rex
2008-12-15, 12:57 AM
I don't think there would be the roll to touch on a Knockdown. The hit that did 10 points IS the roll to hit...but I guess it isn't clear. I don't think it's the intent either, but it is, strictly speaking, what the feat says. The proper wording would be something like the wolf's trip ability - "can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity."


(There's also a 3.0 era Sage e-mail somewhere saying that the intent is that you can't be counter-tripped using Knockdown.)

Stephen_E
2008-12-15, 06:27 AM
I'm not aware of any rule that says you must use your feats.
If you choose to use your knockdown feat you must make a trip attempt if you do 10+ damage.

Yes, you do then need to make a touch attack. If you're sensible you'll have 3 dice of different co;ours. Red dice is standard attack, Green is Touch attack, Yellow is Trip attempt. Roll all 3 at once. The normal Trip weapon is a spiked chain and any trip build should be doing 10pts minimum after a few levels - 2d4 + magic bonus + 1.5*Str bonus.

If you want the special trip ability of a Wolf be a wolf. Either learn shapechangeing or get your DM to let you play an awakened wolf (I suggest Dire Wolf). Then learn Improved Trip and Knockdown. The DM will probably forgive you since you only have one attack so the - attack, spec trip attempt, if trip fails and dam 10+ make touch attack and then another trip attempt, if this attempt fails opponent can trip back, if either trip succeeded you can make an additional attack on prone target.

Stephen E

Person_Man
2008-12-15, 11:57 AM
It's worth mentioning that if your goal is battlefield control, then Knockdown is inferior to Stand Still (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stand_Still) or any of the Mancatcher weapons.

Stand Still doesn't deal any damage, but the Reflex DC is ridiculously high, which means you'll usually stop enemies 95% of the time. And it only requires Combat Reflexes as a pre-req. There's also the Mancatcher, Piercing Staff, and the Sharktooth Staff, any of which will give you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Either is more effective then the Trip mechanic (though Grapple only works well when fighting a small number of enemies).

Mark Hall
2008-12-15, 12:04 PM
It's worth mentioning that if your goal is battlefield control, then Knockdown is inferior to Stand Still (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stand_Still) or any of the Mancatcher weapons.


On the other hand, if your goal is "Cool", knockdown is great. "I hit him so hard he dropped to his knees, then I hit him again for being such a wimp."

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 01:42 PM
On the other hand, if your goal is "Cool", knockdown is great. "I hit him so hard he dropped to his knees, then I hit him again for being such a wimp."Or you combo them. Maybe with Improved Disarm, too.
"I charge, smack him to his knees, and hit him for not showing me that respect fast enough." "He stands up." "I smack his weapon out of his hand." "He runs away." "I stop him. Then I full attack. And knock him on his bum again for good measure, and smack him for falling down in combat, again."

Person_Man
2008-12-15, 02:18 PM
Or you combo them. Maybe with Improved Disarm, too.
"I charge, smack him to his knees, and hit him for not showing me that respect fast enough." "He stands up." "I smack his weapon out of his hand." "He runs away." "I stop him. Then I full attack. And knock him on his bum again for good measure, and smack him for falling down in combat, again."

If you really want to do that, then you should just invest in Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Flindbar. From MMIII and on Crystalkeep - one handed melee weapon, 2d4 (19-20*2), +2 to Disarm. When you threaten a crit you get a free Disarm attempt which does not provoke a critical. Enchant it with Impact and the crit will be raised to 17-20.

Alternatively, you could take Combat Brute, and Sunder and Trip your enemy with one attack.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 02:25 PM
SunderThe problem with that build. And compare the bar to the chain.

Mark Hall
2008-12-15, 03:33 PM
Or you combo them. Maybe with Improved Disarm, too.
"I charge, smack him to his knees, and hit him for not showing me that respect fast enough." "He stands up." "I smack his weapon out of his hand." "He runs away." "I stop him. Then I full attack. And knock him on his bum again for good measure, and smack him for falling down in combat, again."

I do like the idea of "I knock him down like a cheap hooker, kick his sword out of his hand, then dare him to get up."