[d20r, Class] The Dreadnaught, v1.0

[Fax Celestis]

The Dreadnaught class is a warrior separate from both the warlord and the barbarian. Where the warlord enters combat with style and tactics and the barbarian enters in fury, the dreadnaught wades in swinging, soaking blows and fearing little.

Abilities: Constitution is your prime statistic, boosting your already immense amount of hit points. Strength will help you end combats quicker, and Dexterity will help you dodge and give you access to feats that may make your life easier. Probably least important is Charisma: nobody likes a brawler.

Races: Dwarves and half-orcs are the most common among dreadnaughts, though there are some human and half-elven ones. Perhaps the most rare are elven and halfing dreadnaughts, though they are certainly not unheard of.

Alignment: Dreadnaughts, though they can be of any alignment, tend towards chaos.

Hit Die: d12

Starting Gold: 3d4x10 gp.

Starting Age: As fighter (PH 109).

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dreadnaughts are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as one exotic weapon of their choice. They are also proficient with all kinds of armor and all shields.

Skills: A dreadnaught chooses two skill sets. 2 + Int skill points per level, x4 at first level.

Prowess: A dreadnaught gains 8 points of prowess per level.

Bonus Feat: A first-level dreadnaught gains a bonus fighter feat at first level. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat as normal.

Rugged (Ex): A dreadnaught is a being of supreme hardiness. He adds his dreadnaught class level to his hit point total when determining his maximum hit points.

Power Attack: At 2nd level, the dreadnaught gains the Power Attack feat as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Knockback (Ex): At 4th level, a dreadnaught gains the ability to shove his foes when making a Power Attack. Whenever the dreadnaught strikes an enemy while using the Power Attack feat and takes at least a -2 penalty to his attack roll, he may knock his foe back. His target must make a Reflex save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or be subjected to a bull-rush. This ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but it is subject to the Improved Bull-Rush feat. Furthermore, a dreadnaught does not need to move with his target: instead, his target is moved up to the maximum distance resulted by the check, and the dreadnaught remains stationary. A dreadnaught using this ability takes a penalty to his armor class equal to the amount he invested in Power Attack until his next turn.

Imperishable: At 5th level, the dreadnaught gains the Endurance and Diehard feats as bonus feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Intense Fortitude (Ex): Starting at 7th level, if the dreadnaught makes a successful Fortitude saving throw against an attack or effect which normally deals half damage or only has a partial effect on a successful save, he instead takes no damage and is not affected by the spell.

Damage Reduction (Ex): At 8th level, a dreadnaught gains Damage Reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the dreadnaught takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 11th level, and every three dreadnaught levels thereafter (14th, 17th, and 20th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0. This damage reduction stacks with the damage reduction gained by the barbarian class.

Elemental Resistance (Su): At 10th level, a dreadnaught can shrug off the effects of even the most damaging magics. When affected by a spell that inflicts elemental damage (that is, fire, cold, electricity, sonic, or acid), he reduces each die of damage by one, to a minimum of one. Bonus damage on top of each die is not reduced, and a spell affected by the Maximize Spell metamagic feat suffers no reduction. At 11th level, and every three dreadnaught levels thereafter (14th, 17th, and 20th), the amount subtracted from each die increases by 1, but still cannot reduce the damage per die to below 1.

Crushing Blow (Ex): At 10th level, whenever the dreadnaught strikes an enemy while using the Power Attack feat and takes at least a -2 penalty to his attack roll, he may inflict a crushing blow. His target must make a Reflex save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or be knocked prone. This is not a trip attack, and so does not activate feats such as Improved Trip, nor does it provoke attacks of opportunity. A dreadnaught using this ability takes a penalty to his armor class equal to the amount he invested in Power Attack until his next turn. A dreadnaught can use this ability in conjunction with the Knockback ability, but his target gets two saves: if his opponent makes either save, neither ability triggers.

Unstoppable (Su): At 13th level, a dreadnaught can overcome the most daunting of physical tasks. Twice per day, as a swift action, he can add his dreadnaught class level as a competence bonus on one Strength check made to break an object. He may even attempt to break normally unbreakable objects and spells, such as a wall of force, with this ability--magical effects (such as the aforementioned wall of force) use the caster's save DC (appropriate for the spell's level) plus 10 to determine the break DC. Only spells that create or summon objects (not creatures) may be effected via this ability. A broken magical effect is dispelled. The dreadnaught gains two additional uses of this ability per day at 16th level, and two more at 19th level.

Stability (Ex): At 13th level, a dreadnaught gains a +6 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). Should the dreadnaught already have this feature (such as by being a dwarf), the bonus received from the original ability is instead increased by 6.

Vicious Circle (Ex): At 16th level, a dreadnaught causes the area around him to become dangerous to even pass through. Any square that the dreadnaught threatens is treated as difficult terrain, and any movement--including five-foot steps and other movement that does not normally provoke--through those squares provokes an attack of opportunity from the dreadnaught. This ability does not give a dreadnaught additional attacks of opportunity, but a feat such as Combat Reflexes would allow him to take advantage of each provocation.

Unrelenting Cascade (Ex): At 20th level, a dreadnaught can unleash a nigh-unstoppable string of attacks. As a full-round action, he makes one melee attack against an opponent he threatens. If he strikes that foe, he may immediately make another attack against any foe he threatens, at a -2 penalty. He may continue making extra attacks, each at an additional -2 penalty, until he misses an attack. While using this ability, he is considered to have the Cleave and Great Cleave feats, even if he does not possess them or meet the prerequisites, and may make 5' steps between cleave attempts. Should a foe perish while being attacked by this ability, the penalty the dreadnaught takes to attack rolls resets to 0, and the cascade of blows starts anew if he can reach another foe.

Dreadnaught Progression

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +1 | Bonus Feat, Rugged
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +1 | Power Attack
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +2 | -
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +2 | Knockback
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +3 | Imperishable
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +3 | -
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +3 | Intense Fortitude
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +4 | DR 1/-, Elemental Resist 1
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +4 | -
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +5 | Crushing Blow
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +5 | DR 2/-, Elemental Resist 2
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +6 | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +6 | Unstoppable (2/day), Stability
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +6 | DR 3/-, Elemental Resist 3
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +7 | -
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +7 | Unstoppable (4/day), Vicious Circle
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +8 | DR 4/-, Elemental Resist 4
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +8 | -
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +8 | Unstoppable (6/day)
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +9 | DR 5/-, Elemental Resist 5, Unrelenting Cascade[/table]

[afroakuma]

Fax, this class is brilliant. Unrelenting Cascade is something I've always wanted to see a fighter-type have.

[Draco Dracul]

Exemplary work as usual Fax.

[thegurullamen]

Holy crap!

HULK resist minor damages, step up to Wall of Force effect and SMASH it.

Dreadnaught be smacking foes all over the place.

[Zeta Kai]

Yeah, I second Afro's sentiment. This class is a great alternative to ToB uber-melee, with much less upkeep. I also agree that Unrelenting Cascade is ridiculously sweet; it's not gonna help you slaughter the BBEG, but it will turn a swarm of the BBEG's minions into ludicrous gibs.

[afroakuma]

Of course, it makes the rat trick even more potent. :smallcool:

[Starsinger]

The tabel lists Crushing Blow as a level 10 ability, whereas the text block lists it as 8th level. Still, a neat class.

[Fax Celestis]

The tabel lists Crushing Blow as a level 10 ability, whereas the text block lists it as 8th level. Still, a neat class.

10th is correct. Fixing.

[Ziegander]

I almost didn't comment, because I really don't have anything good to say, but I feel like I should comment anyway.

All this class does is hit things. Not even ludicrously hard. It just hits things, has lots of hp, and AND THAT'S IT.

The Fighter and Barbarian are criticized as being weak because of this very thing. Hitting things, and only hitting things, isn't really a viable combat contribution.

Why? Because the times that it's actually good for you to be hitting things, or at least the times you actually can hit things to kill them, it takes you multiple rounds to get the job done whereas any Wizard, or simply someone with a Wand, can destroy half the enemies at once.

The other times, the times where you can't hit the enemy because of concealment, flight, invisibility, mirror images, incorporeality, gaseous form, etc, etc (spell effects that trump weapon attacks), you literally do NOTHING.

This is why Tome of Battle is considered quite a step up from the normal way of making warrior classes. It offers options (in the form of boosts, counters, and stances) other than "I attack it." And the ToB classes still have trouble against any enemy with any magic.

In closing, options are good, 1-20 static progressions of "I get better at hitting things" are bad. Oh, and The DR and Energy Resistance are so small that they don't even matter.

[Fax Celestis]

The DR is the same as the Barbarian gets, so I don't see an issue there. The Elemental Resistance, however, isn't "Resistance" in the traditional sense: instead, it reduces each die, so that a 6d6 fireball is only doing 6d6-6 if you have Elemental Resistance 1, or doing 6d6-24 if you have Elemental Resistance 4.

My next step is going to be introducing Investing Feats, which are feats that get better whenever you put more "martial prowess" into them. The dreadnaught will get more martial prowess per level than any other class in the game, and as such will be able to boost multiple feats to enormous heights: this is where the majority of his power will come into play.

[Zeta Kai]

I agree that the damage reduction should be raised to DR2/- every 3 levels, but I respectfully disagree with just about everything else Ziegander said.

[Ziegander]

The DR is the same as the Barbarian gets, so I don't see an issue there.

Well, you're rewriting things right? The DR that a Barbarian gets is too small to matter as well, but I was talking about this class specifically.


The Elemental Resistance, however, isn't "Resistance" in the traditional sense: instead, it reduces each die, so that a 6d6 fireball is only doing 6d6-6 if you have Elemental Resistance 1, or doing 6d6-24 if you have Elemental Resistance 4.

Ah, missed that. That's what happens when I go making assumptions. That's pretty solid elemental resistance then. Perhaps consider making the damage reduction similar. It reduces a flat number, and then also reduces each die by a certain number (that way you take even less damage from large, enhanced natural attacks).


My next step is going to be introducing Investing Feats, which are feats that get better whenever you put more "martial prowess" into them. The dreadnaught will get more martial prowess per level than any other class in the game, and as such will be able to boost multiple feats to enormous heights: this is where the majority of his power will come into play.

So, wait, is the class not done, or is this new Feats system not done? If the Dreadnaught gets more martial prowess than any other class I'd like to see it get a few of these bonus feats over the levels as well.

[Ziegander]

I agree that the damage reduction should be raised to DR2/- every 3 levels, but I respectfully disagree with just about everything else Ziegander said.

Well, why exactly do you disagree, and with what specifically? Basically I just don't want Fax to fall into the trap of thinking that all Warrior classes do is hit things, or that Warrior classes shouldn't be capable of anything else.

1) Because that's unfair and unbalancing if other classes can do other things AND still hit stuff well.

2) Because it's boring.

3) Because it's unrealistic. Warriors that can only hit stuff are grunt soldiers. NPCs. Heroic Warriors are exemplary. They hit stuff really well, AND have a brain, and since they have a brain they have options.

[Fax Celestis]

So, wait, is the class not done, or is this new Feats system not done? If the Dreadnaught gets more martial prowess than any other class I'd like to see it get a few of these bonus feats over the levels as well.

New feat system is not done, but sufficient to say the bonus feats it has are already investing feats.

[Ziegander]

New feat system is not done, but sufficient to say the bonus feats it has are already investing feats.

But it only gets one. :smallfrown:

EDIT: This is also my big problem with this class. Your Rebirth Rogue hits stuff pretty darned well, has a host of useful class features, has tons of skills, and reasons to use them, AND has Powers. Your Rebirth Monk hits stuff pretty darned well, has useful class features, AND has his Atma powers. Spellcasters obviously have spells that can literally do anything. Warriors need an equivalent to Powers/Atma/Spells. ToB did this. The Dreadnaught is not doing this.

[Draco Dracul]

But it only gets one. :smallfrown:

EDIT: This is also my big problem with this class. Your Rebirth Rogue hits stuff pretty darned well, has a host of useful class features, has tons of skills, and reasons to use them, AND has Powers. Your Rebirth Monk hits stuff pretty darned well, has useful class features, AND has his Atma powers. Spellcasters obviously have spells that can literally do anything. Warriors need an equivalent to Powers/Atma/Spells. ToB did this. The Dreadnaught is not doing this.

According to the part of Fax's feat fix that is done, I believe that the Dreadnaught (along with a few other classes) get feats every level.

[afroakuma]

But it only gets one. :smallfrown:

EDIT: This is also my big problem with this class. Your Rebirth Rogue hits stuff pretty darned well, has a host of useful class features, has tons of skills, and reasons to use them, AND has Powers. Your Rebirth Monk hits stuff pretty darned well, has useful class features, AND has his Atma powers. Spellcasters obviously have spells that can literally do anything. Warriors need an equivalent to Powers/Atma/Spells. ToB did this. The Dreadnaught is not doing this.

Unfortunately, this is specifically what Fax is trying to avoid. So don't keep your hopes up.

[Ziegander]

Unfortunately, this is specifically what Fax is trying to avoid. So don't keep your hopes up.

What specifically? ToB? I didn't say, "Make all of your warriors use Tome of Battle!" I said warriors need options equivalent to Powers/Atma/Spells. If they don't have them, then his Rebirth system is unfair, unbalanced, and will have boring NPC caliber warriors.

[afroakuma]

What specifically? ToB? I didn't say, "Make all of your warriors use Tome of Battle!" I said warriors need options equivalent to Powers/Atma/Spells.

That, specifically.


If they don't have them, then his Rebirth system is unfair, unbalanced, and will have boring NPC caliber warriors.

*shrug* and 3.X wasn't unfair and unbalanced?

Fax's Dreadnought is still very interesting without using the same ToB/4E-esque system the others have. It employs enhanced feats to hold true to the spirit of the original Fighter class from 3.X. I would recommend that you look at them before rendering judgment.

[Ziegander]

I looked at them. I was hoping he'd make his own feats instead of enhancing existing ones. Yes, they are a step in the right direction, but they still don't offer much in the way of options.

Also, what the hell is the point of rewriting the system of base classes if you don't want to make them more balanced?

Yea! Fighters only hit stuff! Everyone else does ANYTHING else.

Wait... what?

[afroakuma]

He is in the process of making his own. No reason to throw out everything that's gone before, though.

And again, it is more balanced. It simply doesn't have a spread of powers.

[Fax Celestis]

I looked at them. I was hoping he'd make his own feats instead of enhancing existing ones. Yes, they are a step in the right direction, but they still don't offer much in the way of options.

Also, what the hell is the point of rewriting the system of base classes if you don't want to make them more balanced?

Yea! Fighters only hit stuff! Everyone else does ANYTHING else.

Wait... what?

The feats in question are merely preliminaries: more will be forthcoming as I make them. I decided I'd start with what already existed since it'd be easier to do so.

[Vic_Sage]

Fax's Dreadnought is still very interesting without using the same ToB/4E-esque system the others have. It employs enhanced feats to hold true to the spirit of the original Fighter class from 3.X. I would recommend that you look at them before rendering judgment.
And that is a terrible, terrible idea. The fighter was one of the most horrible parts of 3.X and sticking to that idea that a class should remain simple and weak (Which is what the Dreadnaught is, but its a step in the right direction) for "rookies" is a terrible one. So far this is the only thing I've been dissapointed in so far in Rebirth.

[Lappy9000]

Well, why exactly do you disagree, and with what specifically? Basically I just don't want Fax to fall into the trap of thinking that all Warrior classes do is hit things, or that Warrior classes shouldn't be capable of anything else.

1) Because that's unfair and unbalancing if other classes can do other things AND still hit stuff well.

2) Because it's boring.

3) Because it's unrealistic. Warriors that can only hit stuff are grunt soldiers. NPCs. Heroic Warriors are exemplary. They hit stuff really well, AND have a brain, and since they have a brain they have options.

1) Lappy like hitting things.

2) Hitting things is fun.

3) Fantasy hitting things even more fun than not-fantasy hitting things.

[Fax Celestis]

I believe the problem at hand is that the dreadnaught presented here doesn't do anything that another class can't do--that's a valid point, and one I've strived to circumvent with my previous creations.

The question becomes, what do I give to the dreadnaught that gives it that capability? Remember, he's not your typical leader-of-men, so auras are out. He's not a barbarian, so rage is out. He's not a trickster, so rogue powers are out.

Thoughts?

[afroakuma]

And that is a terrible, terrible idea. The fighter was one of the most horrible parts of 3.X and sticking to that idea that a class should remain simple and weak (Which is what the Dreadnaught is, but its a step in the right direction) for "rookies" is a terrible one. So far this is the only thing I've been dissapointed in so far in Rebirth.

That's not what I was referring to; rather that a fighter develops a combat style which he employs consistently, developing it through feats. The Dreadnought strengthens the Fighter's power in melee, and Investing Feats allow more unique combat styles to flourish. By no means does it have to be weak, and the built-in options alone are far from simple. When Fax's custom feats are posted, there will be even more variety and power for the Dreadnought.

[Ziegander]

And that is a terrible, terrible idea. The fighter was one of the most horrible parts of 3.X and sticking to that idea that a class should remain simple and weak (Which is what the Dreadnaught is, but its a step in the right direction) for "rookies" is a terrible one. So far this is the only thing I've been dissapointed in so far in Rebirth.

I'm not alone! Thank god! I'm not insane or delusional!


1) Lappy like hitting things.

2) Hitting things is fun.

3) Fantasy hitting things even more fun than not-fantasy hitting things.

1) Zieg like hitting things too. Zieg also like doing other things. Especially when all of my friends hit things and do other things.

2) Hitting things is fun, Lappy. :smallbiggrin: But, my friends all do other things, and when I can't hit things, I can't do aaanything. :smallfrown:

3) I like trees.

[Innis Cabal]

Thoughts?

Similar with a your monk rebuild. Sure he isn't any of those. But he's still above average at hitting things. While full on maneuvers might be....not a great idea...but something makes him stand out from Warrior B12.

Perhaps martial styles based on weapon selection. He's good at hitting things -because- he knows his or her weapon inside and out. He's pracited with it and knows all its tricks.

[Fax Celestis]

Similar with a your monk rebuild. Sure he isn't any of those. But he's still above average at hitting things. While full on maneuvers might be....not a great idea...but something makes him stand out from Warrior B12.

Perhaps martial styles based on weapon selection. He's good at hitting things -because- he knows his or her weapon inside and out. He's pracited with it and knows all its tricks.

Interesting. Weapon styles would work well...and would segue nicely with the Weapon Group Proficiency system, which I was contemplating. I'll consider that.

[Lappy9000]

Lappy like dreadnaught class. Lappy think Fax should make features that let dreadnaught help out allies and not just self.

Dreadnaught hard to knock down. Maybe dreadnaught provide defense or cover for friends? That way, dreadnaught could clear way for puny friends.

EDIT: Lappy think Innis Cabal's idea good too.

[afroakuma]

The cover - that's a good, flavorful idea. Makes him an ideal tank.

[Ziegander]

The question becomes, what do I give to the dreadnaught that gives it that capability? Remember, he's not your typical leader-of-men, so auras are out. He's not a barbarian, so rage is out. He's not a trickster, so rogue powers are out.

Thoughts?

Well, your Warlord has Auras, cool. Your Monk has Atma and Strikes and other coolness, good. Your Rogue has physical, mental, and social powers, NICE.

So, the Dreadnaught needs something. But you're the designer. What exactly do you want to do about it? Do you want something similar to another of your class' systems? Do you want something different but equivalent?

It might just be that the Dreadnaught is a bad concept if you can't, from a flavor perspective, envision it doing anything but hitting things.

But I have an idea. You want the Dreadnaught to hit stuff all the time. Understandable. Well for the Dreadnaught to be able to hit stuff he needs to be able to attack their AC. Illusions, Spells, flight, etc all make this impossible. Further to be able to hit stuff he needs to be able to attack at all. Restraints, magical or otherwise, hinder this, as well as poisons and diseases and other things of that nature.

My idea revolves around the Dreadnaught becoming more and more focused and more and more threatening the more damage he is dealt. If that Invisible Stalker hits him with an attack the Dreadnaught gets mad and can "see" it for 1 round. Something to that effect. If he is restrained and keeps getting plinked away at by his foes he shatters his holds and goes on a rampage.

Some sort of Pain Points maybe? He spends them to achieve superhuman effects?

[Fax Celestis]

That's a neat concept, but I see it more as a feat. I think I'm going to go with weapon styles--and give weapon style only investing feats, and probably a couple bonus weapon style feats through the progression. Probably four, maybe five. 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th would probably be most apt.

[afroakuma]

Instead of having it be when he takes damage, why not just always?

At a certain level, he's learned when something needs hitting, even if it's not obvious. Invisibility and disguise fail against him.

At another level, he starts shrugging off poisons and diseases.

[Ziegander]

That's a neat concept, but I see it more as a feat.

I don't know how in the world it could be a feat. Maybe TONS of feats, but not one feat.


I think I'm going to go with weapon styles--and give weapon style only investing feats, and probably a couple bonus weapon style feats through the progression. Probably four, maybe five. 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th would probably be most apt.

I guess this might be okay... but again... mastering weapon styles seems to be leaning toward, "I hit stuff with my AXE!" and away from "I hit stuff and I do other things because as an adventurer I have to."

[Fax Celestis]

Well, initially it'll be things like, "I hit stuff with my axe", but after investiture and/or further feat acquisition, it'll be more like, "I slice the incoming spell in half with my axe, deflecting it away from me in two effects," or "I deflect the incoming spell/arrow with my shield, ricocheting it to a new target."

[Lappy9000]

Well, initially it'll be things like, "I hit stuff with my axe", but after investiture and/or further feat acquisition, it'll be more like, "I slice the incoming spell in half with my axe, deflecting it away from me in two effects," or "I deflect the incoming spell/arrow with my shield, ricocheting it to a new target."

Lappy approve.

[afroakuma]

Indeed. When everything's either a vase or a baseball, we have win.

[Ziegander]

Well, initially it'll be things like, "I hit stuff with my axe", but after investiture and/or further feat acquisition, it'll be more like, "I slice the incoming spell in half with my axe, deflecting it away from me in two effects," or "I deflect the incoming spell/arrow with my shield, ricocheting it to a new target."

Okay, great, we now seem to have an accord. :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, I just wasn't sure where you were going with it. I don't know you well as a designer yet, you don't know me well as a designer yet... you know, these sorts of losses in translation can happen.

[afroakuma]

Go check out his back catalogue. :smallamused:

[Fax Celestis]

Go check out his back catalogue. :smallamused:

You mean my Wiki (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/)? Yeah.

PS: If'n you want accounts on the wiki to add your own 'brew to it, lemme know (via PM, preferably) and I'll set you up an account. Just let it be known that I have certain...standards for formatting/spelling/grammar. :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

I may take you up on that one day, Fax.

For now, we're hiding VUACS work on a blog.

[Arbitrarity]

Knockback... does it function in all ways as a normal bull-rush?

Specifically, if you push your opponent more than 5 ft, do you have to follow them?

[Fax Celestis]

Knockback... does it function in all ways as a normal bull-rush?

Specifically, if you push your opponent more than 5 ft, do you have to follow them?

Ooh. Good question. I'm leaning towards "no", but if anyone has arguments against, speak now.

[afroakuma]

Argument for, here, actually. Blasting folks backwards is just too fun.

[Arbitrarity]

Ooh. Good question. I'm leaning towards "no", but if anyone has arguments against, speak now.

I have no problem. That makes it function like the Goliath racial feat, which is pretty nice as is.

Vicious circle: Thicket of blades style, or not? It says "any movement", but does that include full retreat/5 ft step?

Ok, I'm out for the night. I hope to be able to provide feedback for anything you put up, Fax :smallsmile:

[Fax Celestis]

I have no problem. That makes it function like the Goliath racial feat, which is pretty nice as is.

Vicious circle: Thicket of blades style, or not? It says "any movement", but does that include full retreat/5 ft step?

Yeah, I should clarify that.

[Ziegander]

Argument for, here, actually. Blasting folks backwards is just too fun.

Arguing "no" means that "no, the Dreadnaught doesn't have to move with his foes when he bull rushes them with Knockback. As such, I throw my hat in the arena for "no" which I think is what Afro means to do as well. :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

What could work well is an ability to stop spells with ranged weapons. So the caster throws a fireball, the dreadnought throws a dagger at it(using up an AoO) and it blows up in the middle of the caster and his allies. A caster throws a lightning bolt, which would normally be a long line, it hits the dreadnought and then it just stops. Or a dreadnought gets in the way of a cone, and everyone behind him is spared. Etc.

[Jasdoif]

Ooh, looks fun. The class does appear to be a supporting framework for using feats, which is kind of opposite of how I usually see it, but it also looks like a decent class without needing its own use-limited abilities. I'm suitably impressed.

I, too, am in favor of Knockback allowing for pushing foes back for far distances without needing to move yourself...although not initially. At 4th level, flight isn't exactly common so you could easily end encounters by pushing foes off of cliffs or other high surfaces, and since Knockback is basically free with an attack you have a fair chance each attack of pushing someone really far if you roll high and they roll low. It also seems kind of odd to consider that Knockback could throw people back ten feet but not knock them prone. Hmm....What if you can push people by farther than five feet, but only when using Knockback and Crushing Blow together?


And....
At 11th level, and every three dreadnaught levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point.It should be (14th, 17th, 20th). The table has it right, but the text does not. (Similar text exists with Energy Resistance as well.)

[Fax Celestis]

Minor corrections (as per Jasdoif); addition of "no move" text to Knockback. v2.0 will contain weapon styles.

[WaterTengu]

Knockback... does it function in all ways as a normal bull-rush?

Specifically, if you push your opponent more than 5 ft, do you have to follow them?

i would say, if you have a shield, you do not. if you hit them unarmed, you do not follow. if you hit with a bludgeoning weapon you do not follow. but a piercing or slashing weapon would be difficult to truly someone like that.

okay correction, a polearm you could throw with (with a smack of the butt), or a two-handed weapon (with a backslash or hit with the hilt). a single-handed weapon it would be harder (because they just are less resilient than a two-handed weapon 90% of the time), but i doubt the dreadnaught would be using one anyway. but i love your idea for the dreadnaught so far. beating someone through a wall with a kick to the chest sounds awesome.

[Zeta Kai]

Another idea could be that the Dreadnaught would inflict various status effects with its strikes. There are a ton of status effects in D20, & most classes don't touch them. A warrior that dazes enemies with its attacks, or temporarily paralyzes them, or blinds them, could be a fun & unpredictable addition to a battle.

[WaterTengu]

Another idea could be that the Dreadnaught would inflict various status effects with its strikes. There are a ton of status effects in D20, & most classes don't touch them. A warrior that dazes enemies with its attacks, or temporarily paralyzes them, or blinds them, could be a fun & unpredictable addition to a battle.

ooh, but they would have to be brute-force based. such as a punch or hilt-strike to the head to daze them.

[Gralamin]

I have to agree, this needs a weapon style type ability. Without it, its limited to the charge/pounce/full-attack scheme. Better, due to the additional effects, but still limited. Though I'm sure the addition of your weapon styles will make it work out nicely.

Edit:

Another idea could be that the Dreadnaught would inflict various status effects with its strikes. There are a ton of status effects in D20, & most classes don't touch them. A warrior that dazes enemies with its attacks, or temporarily paralyzes them, or blinds them, could be a fun & unpredictable addition to a battle.

Thats his Monk class.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Well, I've always been partial to bone-breaking effects, but nobody can ever agree on what the penalties should be for a broken arm or leg, before even factoring in the ridiculous pain effects. Then you have to go about defining "arm" in a D&D world...

But still, non-magical status effects would be nice dressing, as long as it's not central to the class. Overall, this seems like a very good prototype.

[Lappy9000]

Or a dreadnought gets in the way of a cone, and everyone behind him is spared. Etc.

Like the Devoted Defender PrC from 3.0's Sword and Fist?

The class gets things like Deflect Attack, basically letting them parry attacks using a reflex save (which may not be good for the dreadnaught, lest things get massively ability-dependent).

And then there's Harm's Way which lets them switch places with someone within 5 feet and essentially taking the damage for them.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

i've noticed the will save has a different progression than seen in 3.5, somewhere in-between "good" and "bad", which i like.

how is the bonus derived? it kind of looks like 3/7 level rounded up

[Daracaex]

Another idea for spicing the Dreadnaught (Did you intend it to be spelled incorrectly?), taken from experience:

When I'm fighting, I shift between different stances or general styles depending on what I need to do. For example, when I need to bait my opponent, I adopt a more open stance so it seems I am closer and more vulnerable than I really am, or when I want to fake someone out, I can hold my arms and legs closer to my center so that when I throw out a fake, my kick seems to travel further while still being close enough to pull back and kick from the other side. In the same way, I can vary my stance and movements in different ways to be more defensive, quicker, more powerful, etc.

Giving the Dreadnaught a series of styles or stances to choose from and use at will for various bonuses would be a great way to make the class more unique and variable.

As an aside, in d20r, do you plan on keeping bluff as the skill for feinting in combat? You might want to look into changing it. The ability to fake in a fight has nothing to do with lying.


If you're wondering, my martial art is Taekwondo in which I have my black belt. I also have some training in the two-handed sword (katana in Japanese. I should really know the korean name…), staff, and nunchuku, though no fighting experience in any of those.

[Ziegander]

When I'm fighting, I shift between different stances or general styles depending on what I need to do. For example, when I need to bait my opponent, I adopt a more open stance so it seems I am closer and more vulnerable than I really am, or when I want to fake someone out, I can hold my arms and legs closer to my center so that when I throw out a fake, my kick seems to travel further while still being close enough to pull back and kick from the other side. In the same way, I can vary my stance and movements in different ways to be more defensive, quicker, more powerful, etc.

Giving the Dreadnaught a series of styles or stances to choose from and use at will for various bonuses would be a great way to make the class more unique and variable.

At this point he might as well use Tome of Battle's Warblade. Since he has stated he doesn't want to, I think his alternative Weapon Style Mastery thingy will produce similar enough effects even if it doesn't use the same type of system.

[afroakuma]

Letting it transfer Reflex and Will saves to Fortitude x times per day might be fun. Reinforces the tank thing.

[Zeta Kai]

Another idea: buff-canceling strikes. The dreadnaught hits an opponent, & their mage armor is dispelled. Or their bull's strength. Or their DR is negated for a few rounds. Or... well, you get the idea.

[Daracaex]

At this point he might as well use Tome of Battle's Warblade. Since he has stated he doesn't want to, I think his alternative Weapon Style Mastery thingy will produce similar enough effects even if it doesn't use the same type of system.
Not really. The only similarity would be in stances and they shouldn't be very much like the Tome of Battle ones, which are much more supernatural. Also, I've seen this sort of thing used in other games as well, like in Knights of the Old Republic II (It's the only one I've played, so I can't speak for the first game or the Star Wars d20 system). With stances/styles, there could be ones that provide bonuses to allies which reflect the Dreadnaught protecting them, similar to the Devoted Defender, or any other ideas we could come up with.


Another idea: buff-canceling strikes. The dreadnaught hits an opponent, & their mage armor is dispelled. Or their bull's strength. Or their DR is negated for a few rounds. Or... well, you get the idea.
I like this idea.

[Arbitrarity]

i've noticed the will save has a different progression than seen in 3.5, somewhere in-between "good" and "bad", which i like.

how is the bonus derived? it kind of looks like 3/7 level rounded up

1+2/5 level.

[Lunix Vandal]

I randomly decided to stat out a 1st-level Dreadnaught, just to see what it would look like, and I noticed a problem. Namely, as the Dreadnaught class and the Investing Feats page are written (and assuming no relevant changes to the races in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org) -- or the rate at which feats are gained), nonhuman Dreadnaughts must lose a few points of Prowess, because early on they just don't have enough feats to soak up those 8 points per level. (Caveat: The "problem" arises due to the reading of the Investing Feats page described near the end of the post. Also, please forgive my tendency towards long, complicated sentences. :smalltongue:)

As an example, "Cain" is a half-orc Dreadnaught, who chose Bastard Sword as his "free" Exotic Weapon Proficiency. He gets two feats at first level -- one for being first level, the other a Fighter bonus feat from the first level of Dreadnaught. He chooses Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) and Combat Reflexes, and invests the maximum 4 Prowess in each.

At second level, Cain gains Power Attack as a bonus feat. He invests 5 points in it, and adds 1 point each to Weapon Focus and Combat Reflexes. He still has 1 point left over... which he loses.

At third level, Cain gains Cleave as his third-level feat. He invests 6 points in it, and raises Combat Reflexes and Weapon Focus by 1 point each.

At fourth level, Cain gains no additional feats. He invests 2 points in Power Attack and 1 each in Cleave, Combat Reflexes, and Weapon Focus. He's now raised all four feats to the maximum allowed by his current BAB, with 3 points left over... which he loses.

At fifth level and above -- and provided he takes Investing feats at sixth and ninth levels -- Cain has enough Investing feats (each with a high enough capacity) that he doesn't lose any more Prowess.
Human Dreadnaughts who take three Investing feats at first level (and then again at third and sixth levels) won't run into this problem -- the four points of Prowess that nonhuman Dreadnaughts can't spend can instead be dropped into the third feat.

The simplest solutions, in my mind, are:
1) Allow single-class Dreadnaughts with 5 character levels or less to invest up to BAB+4 Prowess in each feat until Level 6 is gained (by which time a nonhuman can have enough Investing feats that he doesn't run into the cap anymore, provided the campaign won't reach Epic levels or he takes another Investing feat before 22nd level),
2) Allow single-class Dreadnaughts with 5 character levels or less to "carry over" no more than 4 Prowess until Level 6 is gained (by the same reasoning as solution 1),
3) Add Toughness or Cleave as (a) additional bonus feat(s) at first and/or second level,
4) Change the Dreadnaught's Prowess to 7/level, or
5) Include a note on the Investing Feats page that characters have 0 Prowess at first level. (To me, at least, the current wording implies that characters do have at least one level's worth of Prowess at first level, since they are gained "much like skill points," which are also possessed at first level.) This option renders the whole "problem" moot, though martial characters' low-level power suffers for it.

[Glooble Glistencrist]

I know this seems like a stupid problem compared to what's been being discussed, but you have some dead levels that it looks like it would be really easy to get rid of - Why not move either the DR or the energy resistances down one level? Then you get at least something at every level. It makes leveling a little more fun.

I like this class.

P.S. Would I be total jerk to correct your grammar? Because it should be number of hit points.

[zeruslord]

I would recommend against making this a purely defensive class. The whole problem with monks in 3.x is that they have huge defenses and no offense and are therefore ignored by all opponents. The best idea for a purely defensive class would be an ability that forces opponents to attack them, either by having damage potential in the rogue range or better that only comes online if opponents don't hit them or by arbitrarily forcing attacks.

DR needs to be raised - at level 8, most monsters are laying down 20 damage per attack. 1 point of DR reduces enemy damage by about 5%, which won't make a difference in the vast majority of fights. By level 11, damage is up to 30 per attack, and is reduced by around 7.5%. Some creatures have more attacks, have spell-like abilites, or fly, and therefore do less damage, but can simply ignore the dreadnaught. A flat energy resistance or percentage energy resistance would probably be a better choice for ease of play, rather than a bonus that could change with every attack.

This guy needs more offensive abilities sooner, unless feats are being given out at every level.

[Fax Celestis]

This class is currently undergoing a transformation to v2.0. I'll post it when complete, and all critique should be reserved for that point.

[Elfin]

This is just awesome. Like the Unrelenting Cascade especially.

[gallagher]

This class is currently undergoing a transformation to v2.0. I'll post it when complete, and all critique should be reserved for that point.
when should 2.0 be ready? i signed up for a game for this and this is very relevant, as i am looking into dreadnaught!

personally, i see fighting classes being inferior to spellcasters because of their ability not only to hit alot of people at once, but also to hit hard on one guy before he can get to him! why not have certain abilities that make spellcasters less efficient against a dreadnaught? that reflecting spell idea sounds like a fun idea, what if he got it at once per encounter early on, and then multiple times per encounter as you progress?

[gallagher]

when should 2.0 be ready? i signed up for a game for this and this is very relevant, as i am looking into dreadnaught!

personally, i see fighting classes being inferior to spellcasters because of their ability not only to hit alot of people at once, but also to hit hard on one guy before he can get to him! why not have certain abilities that make spellcasters less efficient against a dreadnaught? that reflecting spell idea sounds like a fun idea, what if he got it at once per encounter early on, and then multiple times per encounter as you progress?
also, shouldnt power attack come at 1st level, so that the dreadnaught can get the berserk sandworm feat? it could then be reworked to having to have more prowess in it for the added benefits, so that it is not overpowered

[Lunix Vandal]

No. Just ... just no. There's really no reason why you should absolutely have to enter Sandworm at Level 1, unless you're trying to pull the "transform into sandworm at L12" crap I pointed out in the Alpha thread (and which was subsequently Rule 0'd out of existence). Just wait until level 3 -- there's plenty of time and Prowess with which to max out the feat by the time you hit level 16 (when you're supposed to be able to do so). Besides, Berserk Sandworm already takes 93 Prowess to max out -- eleven full levels' worth, plus change.

As for ineffectiveness against casters ...
One, Intense Fortitude. Which is Evasion, but for Fort saves.
Two, Elemental Resistance. Lots of it. That blaster-caster's fireball spam is a lot less intimidating when the damage is capped at ten. Not ten-dee-six, ten.
Three, Unstoppable. Oh look, that holy symbol/spell component pouch you were relying on to be able to cast your spells? I just sundered it twelve times over.
Four, Vicious Circle. Combat Reflexes plus tons of Prowess plus free Exotic Weapon Proficiency (helloooo, spiked chain) equals death to the tune of, say, six Attacks of Opportunity per round, applied against anything that so much as blinks while within 10' of you.
Five, Unrelenting Cascade. Played right (and with decent attack rolls), you can clear entire rooms of mooks in a single round.
Let's face it: The entire class is built around giving Fighters nice things. :smalltongue:

Also, there's an "Edit" button in the lower-right-hand corner of all your posts for a reason.

[SouthpawHare]

If you don't mind a minor criticism of mine... Why the Rugged ability? It seems like basically just an overly-complex way of saying "gets one more hp per level". This could be done easier by giving them the Improved Toughness Feat, or just increasing their hit die if necessary (I realize that it's already d12, but you could always just make a special case for this class and say d12+1, or make up a fictional die type like d14 that can be simulated on computer). Heck, if you're using a non-rolling homebrew for hp generation where you just get a set amount (like average rounded up, which would be 7 for d12 classes), you could just directly say that it is 8 instead of 7. Overall, it seems like a strange hack to me that can be resolved a number of other ways (some of which I mentioned are MORE hackish, some arguably simpler, and the bonus feat version being completely normal).
Of course, the question also arises: Do they need more HP in the first place? There is a reason why d12 is the highest beyond simply the physical limitations of the dice. Mathematically, d12 is a good maximum.

[term1nally s1ck]

So you can take Improved Toughness as well?

This is the class that plays as a tank. It doesn't die. Ever. No, not even then.

I built a dreadnought with both the Brave Fencer style feat, AND the Beserk sandworm feat. Because Agile riposte is awesome.

[Lappy9000]

I suppose you could take Improved Toughness, but core d20r Toughness is better anyways. And yes, the strength of this class is it's inability to just lie down.