[d20r, Feats] Investing Feats

[Fax Celestis]

Overview
Investing Feats are an effort to make feats that are available in the early-game still useful in the late-game by altering how they fundamentally function

Each class receives an amount of "prowess" each level, in a fashion similar to skill points. This prowess must be invested in an applicable feat before completing the level-up process or it is lost: prowess cannot be stored from level to level. The maximum capacity for a Investing feat is your Base Attack Bonus plus three.

Unless otherwise specified, Investing Feats are considered fighter bonus feats.

A
B
Blind-Fight [Investing]
Prerequisites: None

Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.

An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker's bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.

You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see. Darkness and poor visibility in general reduces your speed to three-quarters normal, instead of one-half.

Investiture: You gain one additional reroll per seven points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies.

C
Cleave [Investing]
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Power Attack

Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (that is, render it unconscious or dead), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Investiture: For each five points of prowess invested in this feat, you may either take a five-foot step before making your cleave attempt, or take additional cleave attempt at -2. These options may be selected more than once if enough prowess is invested. The effect is chosen at each activation.

Combat Expertise [Investing]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Investiture: If you have at least eight points of prowess invested in this feat, you gain Armor Class at a 2:3 ratio. If you have at least thirteen points of prowess invested in this feat, you can spend up to 10 points of BAB instead of your normal maximum of 5. If you have at least eighteen points of prowess invested in this feat, you gain spell resistance equal to three times the amount of BAB sacrificed. If you have at least twenty-three points of prowess invested in this feat, you gain Armor Class at a 1:2 ratio.

Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Combat Reflexes [Investing]
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed

Investiture: You gain an additional attack of opportunity per round for each six points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

D
Deflect Arrows [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Improved Unarmed Strike

Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn't count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can't be deflected.

Investiture: You gain an additional use of this ability per round for each five points of prowess invested in this feat.

Diehard [Investing]
Prerequisites: Endurance

Benefit: When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don't have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act.

Investiture: You do not die when you reach -10, as you normally would. You now die when your negative hit points equals the number of points of prowess invested in this feat plus ten, or your Constitution score, whichever is more.

Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points is unconscious and dying, and dies upon reaching -10.

Dodge [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13

Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action.

A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

Investiture: You gain an additional point of dodge bonus for each six points of prowess invested in this feat.

E
Endurance [Investing]
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage, Constitution checks made to continue running, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, Constitution checks made to hold your breath, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst, Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments, and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation. Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued.

Investiture: Your bonus on checks and saves increases by +1 for each three points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: A character without this feat who sleeps in medium or heavier armor is automatically fatigued the next day.

F
Far Shot [Investing]
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot

Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1.5). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

Investiture: For each eight points of prowess invested in this feat, your ranges multiply by another .5. For instance, if you have five points of prowess invested in this feat, your ranges for projectile weapons is multiplied by 2, and your thrown weapons are multiplied by 2.5.

G
Great Fortitude [Investing]
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on fortitude saving throws.

Investiture: For each four points of prowess invested in this feat, the bonus increases by 1.

H
I
Improved Bull Rush [Investing]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack

Benefit: When you perform a bull rush you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. You also gain a +3 bonus on the opposed Strength check you make to push back the defender.

Investiture: Your bonus increases by +1 for each three points of prowess invested in this feat.

Improved Critical [Investing]
Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, Base Attack Bonus +8

Benefit: Your threat range with the selected weapon increases by one for each three points of prowess invested in this feat, to a maximum of double the weapon's initial critical range.

Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Improved Disarm [Investing]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +3 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent.

Investiture: Your bonus increases by +1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: See the normal disarm rules.

Improved Feint [Investing]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise

Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.

Investiture: You receive a +1 competence bonus on the Bluff check for each four points of prowess invested in this feat. If you have at least eight points of prowess invested in this feat, you can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action.

Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.

Improved Grapple [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Improved Unarmed Strike

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple. You also gain a +3 bonus on all grapple checks, regardless of whether you started the grapple.

Investiture: Your bonus increases by +1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple.

Improved Initiative [Investing]
Benefit: You gain a +3 bonus on Initiative checks.

Investiture: This bonus increases by +1 for each three points of prowess invested in this feat.

Improved Overrun [Investing]
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Power Attack

Benefit: You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when using the overrun action. When you attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid you. You also gain a +3 bonus on your Strength check to knock down your opponent.

Investiture: Your bonus increases by +1 for each three points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: Without this feat, the target of an overrun can choose to avoid you or to block you.

Improved Shield Bash [Investing]
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency

Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC.

Investiture: You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with a shield for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: Without this feat, a character who performs a shield bash loses the shield’s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.

Improved Sunder [Investing]
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Power Attack

Benefit: When you strike at an object held or carried by an opponent (such as a weapon or shield), you do not provoke an attack of opportunity. You also gain a +3 bonus on any attack roll made to attack an object held or carried by another character.

Investiture: Your bonus increases by +1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you strike at an object held or carried by another character.

Improved Trip [Investing]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Investiture: You gain a bonus on your attack roll to a follow-up attack after a trip attack equal to +1 for every four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.

Improved Unarmed Strike [Investing]
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you. In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.

Investiture: You gain a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls for each seven points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.

Iron Will [Investing]
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Will saving throws.

Investiture: The bonus increases by +1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

J
K
L
Lightning Reflexes [Investing]
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Reflex saving throws.

Investiture: The bonus increases by +1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

M
Manyshot [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired. Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

Investiture: If you have at least fifteen points of prowess invested in this feat, the penalty decreases to -1 per arrow, and you may apply precision damage and critical hits to each arrow, instead of just the first.

Mobility [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Dodge

Benefit: You get a +3 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Investiture: This bonus increases by +1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Mounted Combat [Investing]
Prerequisites: Ride 4 Ranks

Benefit: Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount's Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount's regular AC.)

Investiture: You may use this feat one additional time per round per five prowess invested in this feat. Also, the penalty you take when using a ranged weapon while mounted is reduced by 1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

N
O
P
Point Blank Shot [Investing]
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.

Investiture: You gain an additional +1 for each 4 points of prowess invested in this feat. The penalty for firing into melee is reduced by 1 for each two points of prowess invested in this feat.

Power Attack [Investing]
Prerequisites: Strength 13

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Investiture: If you have at least ten points of prowess invested in this feat, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks) unless you have at least five points of prowess invested in this feat, even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.

Q
R
Rapid Shot [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Point Blank Shot

Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

Investiture: Your penalty on attack rolls for using this feat reduces by 1 for each five points of prowess invested in this feat. For each ten points of prowess invested in this feat, you may make an additional attack by increasing the penalty a further -2.

Run [Investing]
Benefit: When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Jump skill description), you gain a +3 bonus on your Jump check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Investiture: For each two points of prowess invested in this feat, your bonus on Jump checks increases by 1.

Normal: You move four times your speed while running (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or three times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load), and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

S
Shot On The Run [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4

Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

Investiture: For each four points of prowess invested in this feat, your attacks made while using this ability deal an extra 1d4 points of damage.

Spring Attack [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Investiture: For each four points of prowess invested in this feat, your attacks made while using this ability deal an extra 1d4 points of damage.

T
Toughness [Investing]
Benefit: You gain bonus hit points equal to the points of prowess invested in this feat.

Two-Weapon Fighting [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dex 15

Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

Investiture: If you have eight points of prowess invested in this feat, you gain an additional attack with your off-hand, albeit at a -5 penalty. If you have thirteen points of prowess invested in this feat, you gain an additional attack with your off-hand, albeit at a -10 penalty. If you have eighteen points of prowess invested in this feat, you gain an additional attack with your off-hand, albeit at a -10 penalty. If you have twenty-three points of prowess invested in this feat, you gain an additional attack with your off-hand, albeit at a -15 penalty.

Further, when wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. This bonus increases by 1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

U
V
W
Weapon Finesse [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dex 15

Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Investiture: You gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls when using a finesse weapon for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Special: Natural weapons and unarmed strikes are always considered light weapons.

Weapon Focus [Investing]
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Base Attack Bonus +1

Benefit: Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Investiture: You gain an additional +1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Weapon Specialization [Investing]
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, dreadnaught or warlord level 4th

Benefit: Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Investiture: This bonus increases by 1 for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Whirlwind Attack [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4

Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Investiture: You gain one additional attack per four points of prowess invested in this feat. This attack can be against any target threatened by this ability, even one you have already attacked.

X
Y
Z

[Knaight]

This is really, really cool, but I have one complaint. The formatting seems off, it would probably be easier if you had benefit, then investing(or whatever) in a separate, easy to see subcategory, then normal.

[Fax Celestis]

This is really, really cool, but I have one complaint. The formatting seems off, it would probably be easier if you had benefit, then investing(or whatever) in a separate, easy to see subcategory, then normal.

Like...:

Combat Reflexes [Investing]
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Investiture: You gain an additional attack of opportunity per round for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

...that?

[RS14]

This all looks good. Just a few minor complaints:

Virtually everybody already houserules Dodge to apply all the time. You ought to do the same.

Improved Critical doesn't presently do anything when you take the feat, only when you start investing prowess in it.

It would be nice if Improved Overrun removed the attack of opportunity you provoke.

Manyshot refers to a nonexistent "special" field. Also, I feel like it should provide some sort of bonus before 15 prowess invested.

Rapid Shot and Weapon Focus seem to take too much prowess to boost. You can invest 5 prowess to get +1 to hit on every attack or 4 prowess to get +1 to damage with Weapon Specialization, and that doesn't seem right to me.

[Fax Celestis]

Altered capacity to allow for full usage of gained Prowess at low levels.

[Knaight]

Like...:

Combat Reflexes [Investing]
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Investiture: You gain an additional attack of opportunity per round for each four points of prowess invested in this feat.

Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

...that?

Exactly, its a much better format.

[Fax Celestis]

Altered capacity to allow for full usage of gained Prowess at low levels.

Altered some numbers to work with new capacity.

[Gralamin]

The only problem I see (Other then the ones pointed out by RS14) is the math looks like it may be a bit off for some abilities. I may be wrong though.

[Draz74]

Hmmm, this almost makes me want to do a whole system that's skill-based, where every feat you take becomes a new "skill" that you can sink skill points into.

[thevorpalbunny]

The math is a bit odd for a few right now, but the system is indescribably awesome.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I dunno if you did this on purpose to preserve the Bounding Assault feat tree, but I think it would be a much more effective investment to allows Spring Attack and Shot on the Run to make one more attack during a move action per x points of investment, up to a maximum of a your full attack. As long as x is kept relatively high (10 points, maybe), it shouldn't break the feat.

Overall, good system. Putting it on the huge list of houserules that I'll try to convince my gaming group to try it.

[Pramxnim]

One way to further promote this form of houseruling would be for you to make a post designating exactly how many prowess points are allotted to different classes. Make sure that spellcasting classes don't get too much (2 per level is enough, methinks, or just don't give them any prowess point per level, since they're liable not to use them anyways) since they're powerful enough as it is.
Make some guidelines so that people who want to use this system can apply it to homebrew classes as well.
e.g just off the top of my head (and basing it on the Fencer class you made)

Spellcasting classes: 2 per level (or none if desired)
3/4 BAB types: 4 per level
Full BAB fighter types: 6 per level

No coherent thought was really put into balance for coming up with those numbers. Just throwing a random idea around.
Also, you said prowess points must be assigned at level up and cannot be stored. If a point is not used, is it wasted then? What if a character doesn't have any investing feat? Can't they use them as substitute skill points or something?

Edit: What about PrCs? Homebrew PrCs? In particular, how many prowess points do you think Lord_Gareth's Tarot Trickster should have per level? I'd say 4, but then again, I'm just guessing here

[thevorpalbunny]

It's part of Fax's big project; everything is based on OGL only, so no published PrCs. All eir classes have the prowess labeled.

[bue52]

I'm a little confused on how you buy with the prowess points, do you spend one to gain one? So does that mean that say a Paladin that has 6 points in prowess would then have 6 feats gained per level?

[Fax Celestis]

I'm a little confused on how you buy with the prowess points, do you spend one to gain one? So does that mean that say a Paladin that has 6 points in prowess would then have 6 feats gained per level?

No. He gains feats at the regular one-every-three rate. He gains prowess at a 6/level rate, and can then take the prowess points he gains and put them into his feats to improve them.

[Fax Celestis]

This is really, really cool, but I have one complaint. The formatting seems off, it would probably be easier if you had benefit, then investing(or whatever) in a separate, easy to see subcategory, then normal.

Reformatted as per request.

[Knaight]

It looks really nice.

[Demons_eye]

How much prowess would you say a fighter should have per level?

[thevorpalbunny]

Fax got rid of the fighter and replaced it with several others. The most similar is the dreadnaught.

[Fako]

As with all the other posters, I really like the changes to the feats you've done. I have a few questions/comments though:

Instead of Dodge only providing a +1 bonus per 6 prowess, what about also allowing them to choose another target for every 6 points, and allowing them to divide the bonus as they see fit? (Ex: Tordek has 18 prowess in Dodge, allowing him to get a +3 bonus against one foe, a +2 against one foe and a +1 against another, or a +1 against three foes.)

Do you use any general guidelines for how much prowess a class gets? By looking through the classes in the d20r thread, it looks like the amount given varies between 2 and 8, dependent on how many other abilities they get (such as psionics, auras, or spellcasting), but I may be wrong...

Also, are you planning on revamping the entire feat list? The D20 Rebirth thread doesn't say either way...

-Fako

[Lunix Vandal]

Do you use any general guidelines for how much prowess a class gets? By looking through the classes in the d20r thread, it looks like the amount given varies between 2 and 8, dependent on how many other abilities they get (such as psionics, auras, or spellcasting), but I may be wrong...From what I've read, it works something like this:

2: Classes with a 1:2 BAB progression (plus the Medium). They generally stay out of melee and focus on their special abilities, and thus aren't likely to put effort into improving hand-to-hand combat feats like (most of) the Investing Feats.

4: Classes with a 3:4 BAB progression (plus the Ranger, minus the Medium). They generally do enter combat (either melee or ranged), but split their focus between their raw fighting ability and their special abilities.

6: Classes with a full 1:1 BAB progression (minus the Dreadnaught and Ranger). They have a few (albeit fairly significant) special abilities, but know that they need to be able to hold their own in a brawl (and indeed are expected to do so).

8: Dreadnaught only. The Dreadnaught is explicitly intended to "[wade] in swinging, soaking up blows and fearing little." He's practically obsessed with melee combat, and constantly works to improve his "special abilities" of hack-slash-carve-stabbity-chopchop.

[Fax Celestis]

From what I've read, it works something like this:

2: Classes with a 1:2 BAB progression (plus the Medium). They generally stay out of melee and focus on their special abilities, and thus aren't likely to put effort into improving hand-to-hand combat feats like (most of) the Investing Feats.

4: Classes with a 3:4 BAB progression (plus the Ranger, minus the Medium). They generally do enter combat (either melee or ranged), but split their focus between their raw fighting ability and their special abilities.

6: Classes with a full 1:1 BAB progression (minus the Dreadnaught and Ranger). They have a few (albeit fairly significant) special abilities, but know that they need to be able to hold their own in a brawl (and indeed are expected to do so).

8: Dreadnaught only. The Dreadnaught is explicitly intended to "[wade] in swinging, soaking up blows and fearing little." He's practically obsessed with melee combat, and constantly works to improve his "special abilities" of hack-slash-carve-stabbity-chopchop.

Exactly.

I will be doing rewrites of the majority of the core's feats too, as well as doing some additions.

[Knaight]

The investiture also enables a lot of classic abilities to scale better. The idea of a finishing blow for a prone opponent, for example, would work really well with investiture. (as an attack bonus, or damage enhancement, etc.) This is probably one of the best ideas I have seen game design wise.

[Dalek Zek]

Brew potion : you can only brew ptions of caster level 3 ore less. How would this work with spell seeds?

[Dienekes]

One problem as I see it, take the mentioned paladin who has 6 per level.

At level 1, they only have 1 feat (unless a human) so at BAB +3 they can spend 4 prowess points. Meaning they waste 2.
This gets worse as levels progress, as they do not gain any more feats until 3rd level meaning they just lost (if they increased their sole feat by 1) 5 wasted points to a total of 7

At 3rd level you now have 2 feats. 1 point for the the first feat, 5 for the second. No wasted, total 7.

4th level you use 1 on first, 3 on second to max out. 3 wasted, total 10.

5th level 1 on first, 1 on second. 4 wasted, total unused prowess points 14.

Or at least that's how I think it would work. Which seems a bit wasteful to a player. Though maybe it was intended this way.

[imp_fireball]

This is a decent alternative to 'perks' that I made.

The difference is that perks are applied by player choice - when a player levels up, they can sacrifice the additional HD for a perk. Perks also include extraordinary abilities that aren't official feats but at least plausible - good for games in which tactics are a must and dying is really easy.

[Lappy9000]

This is a decent alternative to 'perks' that I made.

The difference is that perks are applied by player choice - when a player levels up, they can sacrifice the additional HD for a perk. Perks also include extraordinary abilities that aren't official feats but at least plausible - good for games in which tactics are a must and dying is really easy.Waitaminute, did you just respond to this for the sole purpose of promoting your own homebrew?

[daggaz]

Ooh, I like, I like but there are other things in your project im not so hot about *ducks*

I have one big question.

Power attack. You make no mention whatsoever about 2handed weapons, which I find odd as 2handed power attacking is pretty much the only way anybody goes these days. If normal power attack is at 1:1 and thru investment becomes 1:2, then is 2handed 1:3 or 1:4?

God, why does this feel like the leap attack debate all over again? (btw, how do you rule on that one, normal uninvested 2handed power attack leap attack? Now what if you invest in it?? :smallamused:

Hmm another thought.. Improved trip, shouldn't the investment go towards actually tripping? Both fluffwise, but also mechanically... The problem with tripping at higher levels is that you start to fight more and more things that are bigger than you, way stronger than you, and probably have multiple sets of legs... Why not a bonus to actually having a chance to knock them down? This would go well midlevels against things like minotaurs and the like. At higher levels, well dragons arent going down anyways and any humanoid BBEG worth his salt is probably flying (so is the dragon on second thought) so it wont have too much effect, but then again, neither would an attack bonus as you would never trip them in the first place. As written, you arent going to get that attack bonus in midlevels either, as the whole actually tripping your opponent problem still doesnt scale.

Toughness. As written it scales backwards. Dont get me wrong, lvl one is where you need it most so that end is fine... but it needs to start scaling up again after midlevels. As written now, you can toss one point per level assuming its maxed. How much value does one freaking hitpoint have at 15th lvl? At 20th? I would start it the same way, but then divide the levels in, say groups of four, so that after four levels (fifth) you get a 1:2 investment, at 9th, its 1:3, 12th 1:4 and so on... maybe tone it down so it stays reasonable tho...would have to look at the actual math. At any rate, if you are pumping this at 20th level, it should be worth something.

As for the "wasted points" specifically in reference to Paladins and nonhuman nonfighter meleers... i kinda like the mechanic. At third level you have two feats, but it only takes one more level to max both in investment. At sixth you've got three feats, but you wont have the third one maxed until... 8th lvl, next level you are up to four feats, this time you wont max it before you get another feat, in fact you will be three points behind, assuming keeping everything maxed. What this does is give incentive to players to go back to core feats, not only because they are "losing points", but the feats themselves are revamped and actually worth taking. This is called fixing the core melee system, as far as I am concerned, or at least one of its central mechanics. Splat book feats? Good bye, good riddance. Even canon supplement books will start to pale, which is a boon to anybody who doesnt own everybook in existance.

Edit: I wrote this with full BAB progression classes in mind, feel free to sub "level" for "BaB" when necessary..

[Knave]

Before I get carried away with sillyness, TWF fighting would work better as a style feat, like brave fencer (nitouryu? Or some less weeaboo european style?). You could make Ambidexterity the investing feat. Alright, now on to the silly part.

This is kinda random but... Why not just have the prowess points you gain at lvlup as your new BAB+stat bonus, (maybe with some starting bonus at first level)? This fixes the wasted points thing (you gain less points while you have less feats, and gain more at higher levels), and you can just add Dreadnaught some extra prowess as class feature (or the "extra prowess feat" for free). For the stat bonus you could just use CHA, so it finally isn't auto dump stat for any class that isn't depending on it... though it would be hard to justify. Hmmm... Maybe, though this'd be a core rule change which makes me kinda relucant to even suggest it, swap WIS bonus to will saves and this CHA bonus to prowess. So WIS gives a kind of insight into battle/your progress, while CHA (which, as far as I can tell, was supposed to be the power of your personality) gives you a better chance agains mind affecting conditions.

Obviously, that'd require some tweak to numbers (You'll end up with a LOT more points in the end), and it'd basically add another stat for warrior types to depend on... I like it though, as it differenates the mechanic further from skill points and I like the idea of "Solid foundations" (as in, taking a full BAB class early pays off because you gain the extra prowess points on every level from there on).

[Kalirren]

I'd like to second (third?) the concern voiced above: Classes with high prowess will not have enough feats to make investing all the prowess points possible, especially at early levels.

It seems to me that what you're really trying to do is to make feats scale with level in a way that can be calibrated to the way skills develop with skill ranks. IMO the easiest way to do this would be to define for every feat a "key skill" upon which its benefits would depend. So for example, the benefit from Power Attack might depend upon the user's ranks in Athletics. For an easy quantitative example, Iron Will's save bonus could just be 2 + 1/4 ranks in Concentration.

What do you think?

[Knave]

I wouldn't really like that... it'd mean that Rogues for example could be proficient with more fighting techniques than fighters. One of the good things about prowess is that it is unrelated to your skill points, so "dumb" classes benefit from it just as well (or considering that they gain prowess faster, more).

On a second thought it does have merit if you "group" the skills, I guess... If there were only 2-3 categories (athletic-acrobatic-Bluff/intimidate), then even fighters could afford it.

[Fax Celestis]

No, Prowess is remaining as it is. I'll be messing with the actual mechanics to see about how I can make sure your first couple leevels don't result in Prowess oversaturation.

[DragoonWraith]

Why is Improved Critical nerfed? I was hoping to see some improvement in it, but now you have to invest Prowess just to get back where it is in 3.5, and you still can't improve past that. Critical-focused builds are a weak choice in regular 3.5, now it seems like it costs more to make that weak choice...

[Fax Celestis]

Why is Improved Critical nerfed? I was hoping to see some improvement in it, but now you have to invest Prowess just to get back where it is in 3.5, and you still can't improve past that. Critical-focused builds are a weak choice in regular 3.5, now it seems like it costs more to make that weak choice...

Notice the absence of the stacking clause for keen?

[DragoonWraith]

I almost went back and edited to ask if that's what you meant. The absence may not have mattered if Keen still had that clause, but of course the possibility had crossed my mind that you had changed more than just that feat to balance that.

Well, I'm thrilled with that.

[Fax Celestis]

And, to beat anyone to the punch, Sean K. Reynolds (http://seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html) makes a great argument for why it isn't broken.

[DragoonWraith]

I was going to link to that if you argued that it did need a nerf, actually...

[Eloel]

And, to beat anyone to the punch, Sean K. Reynolds (http://seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html) makes a great argument for why it isn't broken.

My sarcasm-detectors are broken. If anyone has one working, is this supposed to be sarcastic?

[Fax Celestis]

My sarcasm-detectors are broken. If anyone has one working, is this supposed to be sarcastic?

Nope, it's not.

[tyckspoon]

Notice the absence of the stacking clause for keen?

Umm. Perhaps I'm just missing something, but doesn't the phrasing you still have there- "This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon-" invalidate stacking Keen regardless of whether or not it is specifically mentioned?

..that is, if you *meant* to allow Improved Critical to stack, it looks like you forgot to actually edit out the offending line.

[Fax Celestis]

Umm. Perhaps I'm just missing something, but doesn't the phrasing you still have there- "This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon-" invalidate stacking Keen regardless of whether or not it is specifically mentioned?

Whoops, left that in from a prior edit.

[Eloel]

Nope, it's not.

Power Attack smacks all over that argument, before peeing on it. Crits are worth more than 'increased base damage'

[Fax Celestis]

Power Attack smacks all over that argument, before peeing on it. Crits are worth more than 'increased base damage'

-_- Did you, uh, fail to notice the change to Power Attack too?

[Eloel]

-_- Did you, uh, fail to notice the change to Power Attack too?

I actually did, and I still do. I see no difference.

[Fax Celestis]

I actually did, and I still do. I see no difference.

Then you and I will continue to disagree until you can indicate in a mathematical fashion why exactly is broken, at which point I will venture to come up with a mechanical fix.

[dragoonsgone]

I am pretty sure I know the answer this but clarification is always better. Its my experience that any question you answer right off the bat, is a little less debate later on, especially in DnD.

Can you invest in a feat the level you get it? IE you get power attack at level 6 and immediately invest it up?
I assume you can.

Are you gonna add some metamagic feats? Or are they just for martial feats? I think they would be good candidates for this. As well as say spell focus. 10 proficiency for +1 DC or some such.

[Fax Celestis]

I am pretty sure I know the answer this but clarification is always better. Its my experience that any question you answer right off the bat, is a little less debate later on, especially in DnD.

Can you invest in a feat the level you get it? IE you get power attack at level 6 and immediately invest it up?
I assume you can.

Yes, but there are some limitations. You cannot invest more prowess into an [Investing] feat than your BAB+3. You cannot save prowess from level to level. Once spent, prowess cannot be altered.


Are you gonna add some metamagic feats? Or are they just for martial feats? I think they would be good candidates for this. As well as say spell focus. 10 proficiency for +1 DC or some such.
Prowess' intent is primarily for martial classes, though there will be some style feats that are primarily caster-centric.

[Fax Celestis]

STEALTH NINJA NON-EDIT OF MATERIAL NOT MADE YET: keen will add to crit multiplier; Improved Critical will add to threat range.

[Zaakar]

Power attack. You make no mention whatsoever about 2handed weapons, which I find odd as 2handed power attacking is pretty much the only way anybody goes these days. If normal power attack is at 1:1 and thru investment becomes 1:2, then is 2handed 1:3 or 1:4?

God, why does this feel like the leap attack debate all over again? (btw, how do you rule on that one, normal uninvested 2handed power attack leap attack? Now what if you invest in it?? :smallamused:

I second this question. Our group was wondering about it (both of the questions actually :smallsmile:).

[Fax Celestis]

I second this question. Our group was wondering about it (both of the questions actually :smallsmile:).

2h power attack works the same way as 1h. I don't really see why there needs to be a difference.

[bogsnes]

Because you get more power out of holding a sword in both hands?

Try it... hit something with a stick as powerfully as you can first with one hand, and then with two... which did you hit hardest with?

[Fax Celestis]

Because you get more power out of holding a sword in both hands?

Try it... hit something with a stick as powerfully as you can first with one hand, and then with two... which did you hit hardest with?

Yes, yes, which is why 2h weapons get 1.5*Str mod damage rather than just Str mod. I don't really see why I need to include that into Power Attack, though.

[lesser_minion]

Yes, yes, which is why 2h weapons get 1.5*Str mod damage rather than just Str mod. I don't really see why I need to include that into Power Attack, though.

Seconded.

The only thing in the original feat to imply that it had anything to do with hitting things really hard was the name. It is not something which needs its fluff set in stone the way it was in 3.5.

When using the Leap Attack feat in d20r, you should delete the entire sentence "If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack." - it is intended as a reminder of the d20 multiplication convention (double something twice, and the end result is triple, not quadruple), not as a rule.

Bear in mind that that isn't an official ruling - because Fax intends to publish his work, he has to stick to OGL material, meaning that he can't go around making sure that all of the non-SRD stuff fits. To use non-SRD material, you will have to do at least a little work adapting it.

[Knaight]

Yes, yes, which is why 2h weapons get 1.5*Str mod damage rather than just Str mod. I don't really see why I need to include that into Power Attack, though.

I agree hugely. After all the mechanics work perfectly fine for aiming somewhere more vital, and thus being more likely to miss. And its not like two handed weapons help hugely with that, although there are exceptions here.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, yes, which is why 2h weapons get 1.5*Str mod damage rather than just Str mod. I don't really see why I need to include that into Power Attack, though.

Plus it helps to limit and mitigate UberCharge cheese, and makes other build types more viable.

[Magnor Criol]

Far Shot [Investing]
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot

Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1.5). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

Investiture: For each eight points of prowess invested in this feat, your ranges multiply by another .5. For instance, if you have five points of prowess invested in this feat, your ranges for projectile weapons is multiplied by 2, and your thrown weapons are multiplied by 2.5.

Emphasis mine.

I think this is a typo; first you say eight points, but then it shouldn't do anything if you only have five points invested in it.

I don't know if I've mentioned it yet, but I love this investing concept. It makes even the low-level feats significant (or, potentially significant, rather) at high levels, and overall makes you think about your feats more. The whole system is at once both simpler and heartier. Good job, as usual.

[Arakune]

I like this system. Seens solid.

Can I steal borrow it later? :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

Personally for "scaling feats" I preferred the method used by Races of War (BAB or ranks in a skill).

[sidhe3141]

Just wondering, why is investing limited to combat feats? As it is, there are other scalable feats (like Alertness [gain effects an extra time per X prowess], Empower Spell [raise multiplier by .5 per X prowess], or Improved Turning [see Alertness]) that a noncombatant might focus on improving. For that matter, there are some feats (like Leadership [make leadership score dependent on investiture] or Power Attack [cap at some function of investiture]) that you might want to work on converting to use Prowess to bring their scaling in line with the new mechanic.

[Dienekes]

Just wondering, why is investing limited to combat feats? As it is, there are other scalable feats (like Alertness [gain effects an extra time per X prowess], Empower Spell [raise multiplier by .5 per X prowess], or Improved Turning [see Alertness]) that a noncombatant might focus on improving. For that matter, there are some feats (like Leadership [make leadership score dependent on investiture] or Power Attack [cap at some function of investiture]) that you might want to work on converting to use Prowess to bring their scaling in line with the new mechanic.

I believe the whole purpose of the Investing Feats was to give the martial types a little something while the others still get there spells.

Not that it couldn't be done with non martial feats, just that it helps balance the system a tad.

Or maybe Fax just hasn't gotten around to doing the others yet.

[Lappy9000]

I'd agree with Dienekes here. In what little playtesting that I've done, prowess in Investing feats has really done a good job of giving martial characters something over spellcasters.

The fact that martial characters get more prowess than spellcasters bolsters my belief that Investiture was designed with the fighters in mind.

[imp_fireball]

This looks pretty good. Is there a link to everything you've done for d20r?

[Lappy9000]

The link's in his sig. There's even a fancy banner :smallcool:


http://www.theanteheroes.com/pics/d20r.png (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7372161#post7372161)

[lesser_minion]

Just wondering, why is investing limited to combat feats? As it is, there are other scalable feats (like Alertness [gain effects an extra time per X prowess], Empower Spell [raise multiplier by .5 per X prowess], or Improved Turning [see Alertness]) that a noncombatant might focus on improving. For that matter, there are some feats (like Leadership [make leadership score dependent on investiture] or Power Attack [cap at some function of investiture]) that you might want to work on converting to use Prowess to bring their scaling in line with the new mechanic.

Prowess can also be used for Style Feats - I believe Fax announced one or two such feats for casters.