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Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 02:53 PM
If Experience points could be bought or sold at a rate of about 5gp/xp, would there be any major game balance issues?

Let's assume the Item creation rules have been majorly altered so that they won't be an issue.

EDIT: (this is 3.5)

R4ph
2008-12-14, 03:00 PM
Ye Olde XP Shoppe

Dost thou suckest in thine combats? Dost thou find thyself lacking in thine skills or feats? Then Kerazy Pete's XP Shoppe art the place for thee! For the small price of only 5 gold pieces a point, thou canst be the next Elminster! Thou can impress all thy friends, with thine newfound epic powers! And all of the wenches will want to know what's in thy britches, when they see you beat Drizz't in an arm wrestle!

So comest to Kerazy Pete's XP Shoppe today! Because thou should be able to buy anything - even love and skill!

Defiant
2008-12-14, 03:02 PM
I would be trading away just about all my gold.

XP > *

On the other hand, I'd rather have XP be a more obscure progression than a pure "do this and you gain this much XP". At least when I DM it, I try to keep it as a gradual obscure progression rather than a direct value (though I do keep track accordingly).

Defiant
2008-12-14, 03:04 PM
On the other hand, I could also try the exact opposite. Sell all my XP and enjoy easier leveling up. At regular wealth, a CR1 proves a challenge (it doesn't, but let's say). I get XP, I sell it. With better items, CR1 is easier and I can receive more XP faster and level up faster.

There's a reason that this can't be done, and why we have WBL guidelines.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 03:07 PM
On the other hand, I'd rather have XP be a more obscure progression than a pure "do this and you gain this much XP". At least when I DM it, I try to keep it as a gradual obscure progression rather than a direct value (though I do keep track accordingly).

Well, the idea is that in this campaign people can gain immense power from "raw magic" (Tangible XP) which is mined in certain parts of the multiverse.

Yukitsu
2008-12-14, 03:09 PM
level 5 whatever, heir of syberous 3.

DM: You're making how much EXP per day?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 03:12 PM
level 5 whatever, heir of syberous 3.

DM: You're making how much EXP per day?

This is a non-eberron campaign. But how are you making tons of money as an Heir of Siberys?

LibraryOgre
2008-12-14, 03:12 PM
In Birthright, you could actually turn your kingdom's wealth towards improving your divine blood.

Defiant
2008-12-14, 05:12 PM
I inadvertently managed to say "on the other hand" twice :smallsigh:


Well, the idea is that in this campaign people can gain immense power from "raw magic" (Tangible XP) which is mined in certain parts of the multiverse.

I see. Well, for a DM who's big on the "big picture", whoever would mine this and get it would have the power. For a DM who's big on the "little picture" (focused on party only), the party could take advantage by having a ridiculously high broken WBL.

mostlyharmful
2008-12-14, 05:13 PM
It at least provides an actual reason for WBL in game, the idea being that WBL is the optimum tradeoff in character between money and level. Unfortunately the classes aren't even vaguely balanced as is, add in that some of the best classes (re-full casters) are the least financially dependant and you get yet anouther boost for the big core three/four.

Defiant
2008-12-14, 05:24 PM
It at least provides an actual reason for WBL in game, the idea being that WBL is the optimum tradeoff in character between money and level. Unfortunately the classes aren't even vaguely balanced as is, add in that some of the best classes (re-full casters) are the least financially dependant and you get yet anouther boost for the big core three/four.

Not sorcerers :smallwink:

mostlyharmful
2008-12-14, 05:30 PM
Not sorcerers :smallwink:

They may be the redheaded step child of the full casters but they come at least close to deserving a mention. At least in core. meh. :smallamused:

Douglas
2008-12-14, 05:51 PM
The immediately obvious exploit to me is that high level characters would find it much easier to level up by hiring low level folks, loaning them equipment, and having them massacre some low level monsters with their loaned equipment and then give the earned xp to their employers. A level 15 character killing a wolf gains no xp. A group of 1st level characters with the 15th level guy's gear can kill quite a number of wolves with minimal risk and gain a substantial amount of xp. Thus, the easiest way to level up is not to go adventuring yourself but to send out ridiculously over-equipped underlings to do it for you.

To fix this, I'd suggest having various "grades" of xp. There is a certain grade of xp that gives full value when absorbed, and this grade depends on your current level. XP below that grade doesn't work as efficiently and your body (or soul, spirit, or whatever you decide does it) has to refine it, reducing the amount, to prevent it from hindering you before incorporating it into your personal power. XP above that grade works just fine, but is still just the same amount of xp. Any xp extracted from someone to sell is whatever grade would be appropriate for that person's level.

This could still lead to over-equipped adventuring parties that sold a bunch of xp for more gear, but beyond a certain point that gets counterproductive. Meanwhile, the xp mines you mentioned could be valuable in a few different ways. A low-grade but plentiful mine could be useful for getting people started, quickly turning large numbers of green troops into semi-veterans; useful, and an easy in character explanation for why everyone in a particular area is at least level X, but not that great. A high-grade mine could get you some quick elite troops, but it's best to start with some near-elite troops to avoid wasting high-grade xp on their low levels. A very high-grade but small mine would be highly prized by people high enough level to need that grade of xp to advance and could explain how a mid-range nuisance quickly became a major villain, but would not produce enough to get more than a few people to high levels who weren't already almost there. A very high-grade and large mine would be the sort of thing cross-planar wars are fought over, and whoever held it would have a tremendous advantage.

Prometheus
2008-12-14, 06:42 PM
The raw rate seems to be 25 gp/xp, by the way, were you to pay a caster to make an item or cast an xp-draining spell for you. Even then, people most of the time would rather have the xp (which is why PCs don't usually use their craft item). Perhaps it should scale by level, I'm not sure whether or not there is a fixed rate that would be appropriate anyway.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 08:01 PM
Oops, forgot to mention this: I was considering dropping all other sources of XP other than this "raw magic XP" stuff. The only way to gain XP is to find some of this stuff. Most people in the world would carry around some of this stuff, either saving up to level up or to buy something.

Defiant
2008-12-14, 08:18 PM
Oops, forgot to mention this: I was considering dropping all other sources of XP other than this "raw magic XP" stuff. The only way to gain XP is to find some of this stuff. Most people in the world would carry around some of this stuff, either saving up to level up or to buy something.

That becomes... problematic.

1. Characters never improve their overall abilities despite being very battle-hardened, experienced, and having slayed hundreds of dragons.
2. The entire purpose of many is to acquire this resource, and not having any other alternatives.
3. It would probably work better to have regular XP gain AND this magical source. This way you can make some sort of BBEG that has abundant access to this stuff, who is feared. Finding these magical pockets should give adventurers a nice boost.

Yukitsu
2008-12-14, 09:05 PM
This is a non-eberron campaign. But how are you making tons of money as an Heir of Siberys?

You don't make money. You make EXP. Heir of syberous gets true creation as a twice per day special ability. If you make EXP into a physical thing, they an get as much as they want for free.

Lapak
2008-12-14, 09:19 PM
If you limit this to buying, and not selling (XP is automatically used upon 'purchase') you've gone back to a version of 1e with its '1gp = 1xp' rule. We've come full circle! :smallsmile:

Douglas
2008-12-14, 09:21 PM
Oops, forgot to mention this: I was considering dropping all other sources of XP other than this "raw magic XP" stuff. The only way to gain XP is to find some of this stuff. Most people in the world would carry around some of this stuff, either saving up to level up or to buy something.
The world would be broken beyond all recognition. Training means nothing, actual experience means nothing, all that matters is the XP mines. Those who control the sources of this stuff control the world, and probably not by trade. They simply level themselves and their chosen servants up and send out their high-level minions to conquer the level 1 hordes. Any side that does not control a source of XP is powerless. "Most people" would not carry around some of this stuff because no one who owns a source of it is stupid enough to trade it away when he could just level himself up and take what he wants by force instead. Anyone who is that stupid will most likely have his mine taken from him by someone smarter in short order.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 09:22 PM
If you limit this to buying, and not selling (XP is automatically used upon 'purchase') you've gone back to a version of 1e with its '1gp = 1xp' rule. We've come full circle! :smallsmile:

Well, I'm CoDMing this campaign with a 1e veteran. I think he suggested this rule as a sort of throw-back to 1e. It's a kind of cool idea, though. :smallsmile:

Lapak
2008-12-14, 10:16 PM
Well, I'm CoDMing this campaign with a 1e veteran. I think he suggested this rule as a sort of throw-back to 1e. It's a kind of cool idea, though. :smallsmile:On that theme, an interesting variation on the rule that I read on a 1e-centric blog was (keeping in mind that gp in 1e was a if not the primary source of xp) gp gives xp ONLY when spent. It's certainly one way to keep player wealth down if they can't get a significant amount from killing monsters. They can blow it on carousing, or spend it on items, but spend it they must if they want to advance.

jcsw
2008-12-14, 10:28 PM
You don't make money. You make EXP. Heir of syberous gets true creation as a twice per day special ability. If you make EXP into a physical thing, they an get as much as they want for free.

Technically, you could make valuable trade goods as well, then sell it.

RebelRogue
2008-12-15, 09:14 AM
level 5 whatever, heir of syberous 3.

DM: You're making how much EXP per day?
You have to be at least level 12 to qualify for Heir of Siberys, but I guess the point stands.

Eloel
2008-12-15, 09:21 AM
If Experience points could be bought or sold at a rate of about 5gp/xp, would there be any major game balance issues?

Obviously there would be. Vow of Poverty, you get an average of what you'd get with your gold. Level up as needed/wanted with your gold.

metagaia
2008-12-15, 09:27 AM
You would have wizards and sorcerers refusing to enter battle, as wall of iron can be a very nice little gold earner since you can sell the iron instead of it having to be mined.

Also, prices of items would rocket, since merchants (experts) would gain insane amounts of XP, put all the skill points into bluff and then use then to justify the higher prices.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 09:57 AM
Alright, so clearly this idea doesn't work right now. Is there a way to make it work?

Another_Poet
2008-12-15, 10:19 AM
Alright, so clearly this idea doesn't work right now. Is there a way to make it work?

Yes. I think these rules would make it workable:

1) Player characters can use gold to purchase XP, but cannot sell their XP to gain gold. Justify however you want.

2) Raw XP cannot be conjured magically nor created magically. No spell exists to create it, so it must be mined in its naturally occuring form.

3) A higher price for purchasing XP. 25gp:1xp was suggested above, and matches the item creation guidelines, but sounds pretty steep to me. Maybe 10 gp or 15 gp to 1 xp.

Go with those rules and tell you players you may need to adjust as the game goes on. Even with that caveat they should be pretty excited about being able to purchase extra XP.

You might also want to allow fighters, barbarians and monks to level 20% faster than the other classes, too. As pointed out above the caster classes will benefit the most from converting gold to XP, so make it easier for the melee types. This will also give a more 1e feel, with different leveling rates for different classes.

Douglas
2008-12-15, 12:04 PM
Those rules do not solve the core problems caused by raw power being literally mined in a limited set of locations and unavailable everywhere else. Without strong balancing factors, there is no reasonable way for that to lead to anything but domination of the world by a limited group of "XP Lords".

Note: the following discussion assumes that, since XP is obviously a known in character concept, levelling up is also known in character complete with its discrete nature. A level 5 character might actually state in character "I am level 5."

I would suggest going back to my varying XP quality idea and making sources of low quality XP abundant. A lucky peasant might trip over some level 1 XP in his back yard. Level 2 XP is less common but not by much, and those who control sources of it cannot level themselves up just from that enough to prevent a group of level 1s from beating them. Thus the controllers of level 2 XP level themselves up as far as that quality of XP can take them and then use the excess in trade. Level 3 XP is a bit harder to find, and so on.

Anyone who owns a sustainable source of XP will typically be levelled up as high as the quality of that source will allow. He will then have no further personal use for the XP he can extract from it, but is not high enough level to just take what he wants by force from those less individually fortunate but more numerous. Thus, he is willing to trade his XP away.

Higher quality XP mines tend to be both rarer and less productive. At each step, the levelled up owners of those mines are not sufficiently powerful to defeat the greater numbers of the next step down and may be forced to trade, at least with them.

People commonly carry around relatively small amounts of XP both because of its inherent value as currency and because a levelup must be done all at once. XP value is subjective, however, as level 1 XP is of no use to a level 10 character. A high level character may have some low quality XP, but he will value it only for its trade value and even that will not be very much - the low level folks who would pay well for it don't have much to offer. At the same time, he likely will not bother to pay increased prices for higher quality XP that is (so far) not actually more valuable to him. Thus, any given person is likely to have a moderate amount of level-appropriate-quality XP at any given time.

However, this should lead to a rather steep price curve for XP to the point where tiers of exchanges would make more sense. The level 20 owner of a high quality XP mine is not going to be interested in mere gold unless it is a truly impressive amount. In fact, anything that can be produced by people enough levels lower than him will be near worthless to him. You could offer any number of +1 swords for a small amount of his mine's produce and he would just yawn at you; if he really wants a +1 sword he can just find a puny level 3 crafter and extort it from him. Beyond a certain point, gold and low level items simply have no value.

Offer a +5 Flaming Frost Keen sword and he'll sit up and take notice. Offer him the services of a level 18-19 party of mercenaries and he might also be interested, assuming he has a task worthy of such effort. Offer him some slightly lower level XP than what his mine produces and he might accept the trade, though obviously he'll want more XP than he's selling.

Also, this makes it easy to advertise prizes that will attract exactly the level of adventurers you want. Simply announce that you will reward X deed with Y amount of level Z XP, and adventurers of about level Z will jump at it while higher level adventurers ignore it as worthless and lower level adventurers go elsewhere because that level XP isn't worth the trouble yet.

Another_Poet
2008-12-15, 12:58 PM
Those rules do not solve the core problems caused by raw power being literally mined in a limited set of locations and unavailable everywhere else. Without strong balancing factors, there is no reasonable way for that to lead to anything but domination of the world by a limited group of "XP Lords".

Yep, exactly right... except that you think that's a problem. Obviously it's up to the OP whether it fits hsi campaign or not, but both tghe real world and all D&D worlds I've played are already worlds dominated by a limited number or "Resource Lords". Normally it's gold, tech, magic or some other commodity which does, just like XP, increase the power level of those who possess it. It is hoarded and concentrated whenever possible by those who can do so. That's why kings and emperors exist in D&D and why multibillion dollar coporations exist in the real world.

Ultimately, it's a relatively insignifcant difference to change the name of the resource to "XP" and redescribe how it makes you more powerful ("It raises your hp's and increases your skills! Totally different than gold, that let's you buy more HP's and more skills!").

I should add that there's nothing wrong with your varied-quality-XP setting idea, and it has a certain charm to it - prospectors and peasants scrabbling to dig up a little XP whenever they can. It is, however, introducing a more complex mechanic for something that can be handled relatively simply. If the focus of the OP's game is meant to be all about the XP industry, then your rules are great (though my rules 2 and 3 should still apply). If the XP industry is supposed to be in the background as a sort of "here's something neat that you can also get some cool stuff out of" then my rules are sufficient.

ap

Douglas
2008-12-15, 01:45 PM
Yep, exactly right... except that you think that's a problem. Obviously it's up to the OP whether it fits hsi campaign or not, but both tghe real world and all D&D worlds I've played are already worlds dominated by a limited number or "Resource Lords". Normally it's gold, tech, magic or some other commodity which does, just like XP, increase the power level of those who possess it. It is hoarded and concentrated whenever possible by those who can do so. That's why kings and emperors exist in D&D and why multibillion dollar coporations exist in the real world.
Hoarding those resources does increase your power, but generally in different ways and not as much compared to everyone else.

Gold is really only valuable for what you can buy with it. Its value is because of its scarcity, not any inherent use. To dominate the world with gold, you have to find people who are willing and able to give the world to you and you have to give them your gold in exchange.

Technology is an inherently non-exclusive resource. Anyone can (in theory) develop any technology. Establishing a monopoly on it is practically impossible.

Magic is generally equivalent to technology in this manner.


Ultimately, it's a relatively insignifcant difference to change the name of the resource to "XP" and redescribe how it makes you more powerful ("It raises your hp's and increases your skills! Totally different than gold, that let's you buy more HP's and more skills!").
There's one critical difference between XP and gold - getting more powerful from gold requires giving the gold away. Sure, you have exclusive ownership of the only gold mine in the world. Congratulations, you are rich. You buy a bunch of stuff and you are suddenly no longer the only person in the world with any gold - all the people you bought from now have some.

If instead you have exclusive ownership of the world's only XP mine, you consume every bit of it yourself and you are suddenly overwhelmingly powerful with absolutely no competition. No one else has any XP because none of it has ever left your possession - and there is no other source. On top of this, the power disparity between high level and low level characters in D&D is vastly greater than that between the merely wealthy and the poor. Even assuming magic items are available for sale, there's only so much equipment can do against someone tossing meteors around when you're only level 1.

These are, of course, extreme examples, but adding a few more XP mines doesn't change things very much. A single high level character is so much more powerful than a swarm of low levels that each XP Lord will have a handful of ridiculously powerful servants and everyone else in the entire world will be level 1. There will be no in between, and the PCs' only chance to not be relegated to level 1 forever is to get chosen by an XP Lord, at which point they undergo advancement so fast and high it makes even the RAW 1 level/3.33 days rate seem glacial.


If the XP industry is supposed to be in the background as a sort of "here's something neat that you can also get some cool stuff out of" then my rules are sufficient.

ap
With just your rules, the XP industry can only work by DM fiat. The logical result is that, unless one of the XP Lords chooses to power them up deliberately, the party will never ever gain XP because none of it ever leaves the XP Lords' hands.

Eloel
2008-12-15, 01:51 PM
1) Player characters can use gold to purchase XP, but cannot sell their XP to gain gold. Justify however you want.


I remind you Vow of Poverty.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 01:51 PM
That becomes... problematic.

1. Characters never improve their overall abilities despite being very battle-hardened, experienced, and having slayed hundreds of dragons.
2. The entire purpose of many is to acquire this resource, and not having any other alternatives.
3. It would probably work better to have regular XP gain AND this magical source. This way you can make some sort of BBEG that has abundant access to this stuff, who is feared. Finding these magical pockets should give adventurers a nice boost.

#3 would be interesting if this buyable XP had a duration, rather than being permanent.

Another_Poet
2008-12-15, 02:33 PM
Technology is an inherently non-exclusive resource. Anyone can (in theory) develop any technology. Establishing a monopoly on it is practically impossible.

Putting aside the obvious 400-year-long real-world counterexample, all I'll say is that in fantasy worlds tech (or magic, or both) is almost always controlled by a monopoly. The DM decides which countries have which tech levels and what the disparity is. Good DM's build in some monetary, cultural or geographical reason to explain it, otherwise it's fiat all the way. Again, changing the name of the resource that is arbitrarily assigned by the DM is an insignificant change; if you dislike arbitrary resource assignment, that's a worldbuilding exercise, but chances are the players will see too small a slice of the economy to ever notice.



If instead you have exclusive ownership of the world's only XP mine, you consume every bit of it yourself and you are suddenly overwhelmingly powerful with absolutely no competition.

There are several reasons why this wouldn't happen. First of all, mining is crappy work. It's crappy as a 1st level commoner but, really, it isn't much less crappy as a 10th-level fighter. If you chose to spend all your XP on levels in wizard, and if you dedicated all your new wizard spells to automating the mining process with magic, you might be able to do it - but even then, the amount of XP you need to keep gaining power becomes ridiculously huge for a single person to mine all on his/her own. Plus, where are you learning spells sitting alone in a mine? To learn all the spells you'll need for excavation, refinenment, animating objects, and defending your claim you will need to pay someone to look at their spellbook. They're gonna want a nice chunk of the XP as payment.

And of course, not everybody wants to be a wizard. Some might take levels in classes that don't gain spells - they're going to need to hire workers, or at least dirtomancers, and those people will want to be paid in XP as well. Plus, there's grift. Read this well-informed article (http://www.thievesguild.cc/articles/diamond/) for why exactly your XP Overlord won't be able to keep his workers from sneaking out extra shares of XP. (With a fantasy twist, he might actually be extra lax on workers stealing XP, since they will become stronger, more capable workers for it - and probably won't quit, since doing so would cut them off from their supply).

No matter what class the XP Overlord spends his XP in, eventually he will face an all-out raid. It could be worker rebellion, with angry union members eating whole troughs of refined XP just before charging the main office. It could be a sneaky outside job, with invisible adventurers teleporting in and looting the place. If the XP Overlord gets too powerful, godlike Outsiders may decide to intervene and stop his rise.

Ultimately, in a fantasy game, the number of "realistic" things that will stop a single tyrant or cabal from taking over the world are limited only by the imagination of the players & GM. Based on what I know of gamers that means there are unlimited roadblocks to the XP Overlord's power.

Again I want to stress I have nothing against the rules you proposed. And if the OP likes them I hope they work well for him/her. My only difference of opinion is that I get the feeling you think the saleable XP idea is nonsense without your rules, which it simply isn't. (Note: All 1st ed games took place in worlds with a type of saleable XP, as the ruleset allowed XP purchase at any time.)

ap

bosssmiley
2008-12-15, 03:58 PM
The Gold <=> XP equation has a couple of major problems in D&D as we know it:
Infinite wealth loops
Cast any creation-type spell, sell the created material, win D&D. :smallannoyed:
Greyhawking the scenery for fun and profit
If people can get extra power for cash they will seriously tear the lowliest fixtures and fittings out of the dungeon and sell them for scrap.
Both of these will lead to gold-farming behaviour, rather than to heroic adventure. Both suck.

See Dungeonomicon and the Tome of Gears (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48453) for a more considered discussion on exactly why the current iteration of the "Gold = XP = character power" is a bad thing. :smallannoyed:


In Birthright, you could actually turn your kingdom's wealth towards improving your divine blood.

Only indirectly mind you. Regency was the measure of divine power in "Birthright". You earned it by being a ruler, but had to expend it (and gold by the 40lb bar!) to improve - or even just maintain - your position at the top of the greasy pole. You could gradually built Regency through enlightened rulership, but the quickest and best way to boost it was to go adventuring and gank someone else with divine blood. :smallwink:

The BECMI "Wrath of the Immortals" set did similar. Basically XP were directly convertible to character power (10,000xp = 1 divine power point IIRC). You could convert power points into gp value items (magic lewts, artefacts, demi-planes, golden palaces, stat boosts, etc.), but the transaction was *strictly* one way. The only way to earn power points was by doing proper adventurely stuff like scoring coups against other Immortals, tapping fonts of cosmic power, defeating epic threats and so forth.

Back in the days before the 3E magic mart you could directly earn extra XP for conspicuous consumption (wenching, boozing, sponsoring minstrels, general Hooray Henry jackassery). This wasn't a big deal, because (a) the OD&D/1E power-by-lvl curve was much shallower than in these decadent times, and (b) issuing magical gear to the PCs was entirely in the hands of the DM. By default you couldn't just plonk down a ton of gold and buy hardcore magical kit, the magic mart didn't exist (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48431). Heck! You couldn't even make your own gear before about 9th level, and even then the jumping through hoops you were required to do was insane. :smallbiggrin:

Kids today, eh? :smallamused:

Douglas
2008-12-15, 04:01 PM
Putting aside the obvious 400-year-long real-world counterexample, all I'll say is that in fantasy worlds tech (or magic, or both) is almost always controlled by a monopoly.
Really? It's common for one side to have the equivalent of nukes while no one else has better than rough clubs? Yes, it is possible for one society to get significantly ahead. Establishing that magnitude of difference, however, is rather difficult without extreme isolation and a huge difference in circumstances or research efforts. Even if accomplished, it is generally not all under the direct personal control of one person like a high level D&D character's power is.


There are several reasons why this wouldn't happen. First of all, mining is crappy work. It's crappy as a 1st level commoner but, really, it isn't much less crappy as a 10th-level fighter. If you chose to spend all your XP on levels in wizard, and if you dedicated all your new wizard spells to automating the mining process with magic, you might be able to do it - but even then, the amount of XP you need to keep gaining power becomes ridiculously huge for a single person to mine all on his/her own.
So you hire enslave people to do it for you once you're powerful enough to do so.


Plus, where are you learning spells sitting alone in a mine? To learn all the spells you'll need for excavation, refinenment, animating objects, and defending your claim you will need to pay someone to look at their spellbook. They're gonna want a nice chunk of the XP as payment.
Eat enough XP to level up. *POOF* Your spellbook has two brand new spells chosen by you.

Or, spend some gold and a few weeks on researching.


And of course, not everybody wants to be a wizard. Some might take levels in classes that don't gain spells - they're going to need to hire workers, or at least dirtomancers, and those people will want to be paid in XP as well.
They may want to be paid in XP but the Lord doesn't have to agree to that, and there will be plenty of people willing to work for just a more comfortable life - or under coercion.


Plus, there's grift. Read this well-informed article (http://www.thievesguild.cc/articles/diamond/) for why exactly your XP Overlord won't be able to keep his workers from sneaking out extra shares of XP. (With a fantasy twist, he might actually be extra lax on workers stealing XP, since they will become stronger, more capable workers for it - and probably won't quit, since doing so would cut them off from their supply).
Real world people don't have mind control, reliable lie detection, or constructs.


No matter what class the XP Overlord spends his XP in, eventually he will face an all-out raid. It could be worker rebellion, with angry union members eating whole troughs of refined XP just before charging the main office.
That will never happen with dominated workers or constructs, which smart XP Lords will use.


It could be a sneaky outside job, with invisible adventurers teleporting in and looting the place.
No one but another XP Lord has forces powerful enough to pull that off.


If the XP Overlord gets too powerful, godlike Outsiders may decide to intervene and stop his rise.
That would require considerably more divine intervention than is typical in my experience.


Ultimately, in a fantasy game, the number of "realistic" things that will stop a single tyrant or cabal from taking over the world are limited only by the imagination of the players & GM. Based on what I know of gamers that means there are unlimited roadblocks to the XP Overlord's power.
Usually the tyrant doesn't have nearly such an unmatched exclusive source of power already in hand, though.


Again I want to stress I have nothing against the rules you proposed. And if the OP likes them I hope they work well for him/her. My only difference of opinion is that I get the feeling you think the saleable XP idea is nonsense without your rules, which it simply isn't. (Note: All 1st ed games took place in worlds with a type of saleable XP, as the ruleset allowed XP purchase at any time.)

ap
Saleable XP by itself is not unworkable. It's the fact that it is the only source of XP that causes problems. That and the sheer magnitude of difference between the personal power of low and high level characters in D&D.

Another_Poet
2008-12-15, 04:24 PM
It's the fact that it is the only source of XP that causes problems.

On this we agree.

Gaining XP through regular adventuring should definitely be possible (and, in fact, quicker) than buying it - unless the players are asking for a game that's all about greed, at least.

I think a "mining is the only way to gain XP" setting would be great for a sort of fantasy Gilded Era/Industrial Revolution/OMG Standard Oil put bombs on my oil rigs! type of game. For anything else it's... dubious to say the least.

ap

Douglas
2008-12-15, 04:38 PM
I think Mushroom Ninja was planning for XP to be a regular part of loot - you take however much the dead guy had saved up for his next level - so that could be a way for adventuring to gain XP at significant speed, provided that the party's victims can get their hands on some XP in the first place. I just think that the yield from an XP mine would increase the owner's ability to defend it so quickly that no one else would ever get any. Making all XP mines have very low yield might prevent this, but then the total rate of XP extraction divided by the total world population would be such that level advancement is slowed to a crawl and high level characters are practically unheard of.

Another_Poet
2008-12-15, 04:40 PM
Mr. Douglas, meet Mr Fiat.

Play nicely now :smalltongue: :smallsmile:

Douglas
2008-12-15, 05:06 PM
Well hello Mr. Fiat, would you care for some rocks to drop on unsuspecting adventurers? :smalltongue::smallamused:

Just a side note since I doubt either of us is going to convince the other on this: my system also provides a mechanic for preventing low level threats from giving too much XP to high level adventurers. Assuming your average humanoid has half as much XP saved up as he needs to level up, 20 level 1 guards would give a level 10 character a whole level despite being no threat. This reward is vastly out of proportion to the effort required to earn it. With my system, though, all that XP would probably be too low quality for the level 10 guy to use and he'd get a suitably small reward from looting them for the risk and effort involved in earning it.
ACK, a SIGNOFF! MUST KILL SIGNOFF! . (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95803) :-P ;-)

Yahzi
2008-12-15, 10:56 PM
If Experience points could be bought or sold at a rate of about 5gp/xp, would there be any major game balance issues?
Not at all. I am running a game that does this right now, and it works fantastically. At first my players were dubious, but they've been won over.

The advantages are phenomenal. The players are in control of their destinies: they choose whether to level, invest in equipment, or level their mooks. The magic item creation system makes sense. There is now a reason you can buy magic items in the first place. There is now a reason Shadows don't conquer the world in a week. There is now an explanation for why Trolls and other monsters roam the wild. There is now an explanation for side-quests, and why adventurers do what they do. XP is a valuable resource, and adventurers are the means of harvesting it.

Let's face it, D&D already treats XP as fungible. Why not just embrace it?

I'm still polishing my campaign setting, but I can tell you, you only need a few simple rules to make it all work.


1) Sentience is the source of XP (you're harvesting people's souls).

2) Everything supernatural costs XP (monsters, class levels, items).

3) Magic items cost 1/2 their cost in XP and 1/25 in material costs.

4) You only get 1/16 out of what you put in.

5) One last thing: you need to change the XP table. I make each level cost double what the previous one did. Good old 1e!

According to core, a 20th level character (at 5 gp per XP) costs 1,000,000 gp. A Fortress costs 1,000,000 gp. Now tell me: how many Fortresses is a 20th level character worth? That's right, all of them. A 20th level wizard can make as many Fortresses as he wants. In my world, 20th level requires consuming the souls of about 2 billion people. Now that's epic!


a mechanic for preventing low level threats from giving too much XP to high level adventurers.
My mechanic is doubling XP for each level. Now that my players are 7th level, the amount of XP they need to go up a level is so much more than you get from a 1st level that they simply can't be bothered. Last week they fought some punks; everytime they rolled the dice, I said, "Congratulations. You've just earned 32 XP." Since they need 64,000, they didn't find it nearly as funny as I did.


I think Mushroom Ninja was planning for XP to be a regular part of loot
Exactly. Why does that Dire Wolf have 200 gp? Because he has 200 gp worth of extra XP stored up.


why exactly your XP Overlord won't be able to keep his workers from sneaking out extra shares of XP.
Because low level servants are useful. Would you rather go from 7th to 8th, or hire 128 1st level dudes? Those dudes can be pretty helpful at running your enemies out of spells.


ast any creation-type spell, sell the created material, win D&D.
But that's a problem anyway. In my world, that Genie wish might not cost you XP, but it costs the Genie XP, and he can't provide wishes for free forever.

As for selling walls of iron and such, you can only sell what the market can buy. Any DM that lets you sell an infinite amount of iron in a city of a few thousand already has a problem.


If people can get extra power for cash they will seriously tear the lowliest fixtures and fittings out of the dungeon and sell them for scrap.
If your players aren't doing this already, then they're not playing right. :smallbiggrin:


With just your rules, the XP industry can only work by DM fiat. The logical result is that, unless one of the XP Lords chooses to power them up deliberately, the party will never ever gain XP because none of it ever leaves the XP Lords' hands.
Well, the XP lords are always at war with each other. And they need servants. And they need ways to find out which people are worth promoting. Letting people go out into the wild and kill things for XP is good for everyone: the lord sees who is worthy, and occasionally gets reports of a monster worthy of his time (when adventurers start disappearing :smallbiggrin: ).

However, mining the XP won't work at all, you are correct in that. What you need is a way to produce XP in a controlled and difficult way. Mine is sentience: sentient creatures have to live and grow to form full souls to be harvested.

Most of the XP for my feudal lords comes from their peasants. You work all your life for your lord, growing food and mining metal, and when you die, your soul continues to work for him. But you don't care. In fact, you're happy about it - because if it weren't for your lord's supernatural strength, you and your kids would be gnoll food right now. He gets the XP from the natural deaths of the community because he protects the community.


The immediately obvious exploit to me is that high level characters would find it much easier to level up by hiring low level folks, loaning them equipment, and having them massacre some low level monsters with their loaned equipment and then give the earned xp to their employers.
It's called the feudal system. :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2008-12-15, 11:35 PM
If you limit this to buying, and not selling (XP is automatically used upon 'purchase') you've gone back to a version of 1e with its '1gp = 1xp' rule. We've come full circle! :smallsmile:

Wait, so way back when I was a little kid my first exposure was 1e not 2e? Weird.

Another_Poet
2008-12-16, 11:34 AM
1) Sentience is the source of XP (you're harvesting people's souls).

...

However, mining the XP won't work at all, you are correct in that. What you need is a way to produce XP in a controlled and difficult way. Mine is sentience: sentient creatures have to live and grow to form full souls to be harvested.

Actually, I think combining these would be very cool. If XP = souls of dead creatures, there could be small but valuable deposits of fossilised XP underground. Petrochemicals for the arcane generation. This would make mining XP dangerous (what monsters might be tunneling around down there looking for that XP? Do you have to defeat the ghosts of fallen dinosaurs before you can claim their XP?) and very difficult (magically refining the fossilised XP into usable XP). It also gives a cool excuse to adventurers to go deep into the earth in mineshafts bigger than any built on earth.

I likes it.

ap
I'll sign off if I want to!

bosssmiley
2008-12-16, 11:45 AM
Most of the XP for my feudal lords comes from their peasants. You work all your life for your lord, growing food and mining metal, and when you die, your soul continues to work for him. But you don't care. In fact, you're happy about it - because if it weren't for your lord's supernatural strength, you and your kids would be gnoll food right now.

How very...pharaohnic . :smallconfused:


Actually, I think combining these would be very cool. If XP = souls of dead creatures, there could be small but valuable deposits of fossilised XP underground. Petrochemicals for the arcane generation.

You mean like the Soul Veins (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=28832) of the Outer Planes? :smallwink: