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nhbdy
2008-12-14, 07:40 PM
I am currently DMing a game where everyone is level 6. I decided that for christmas, I would give everyone a free wish, not as the spell, but more generic.

This is where I encountered a problem, one of the players said they were going to wish for the Sword of Kas.

I have tried warning them of the implications, I let the other players try to warn them, but they won't listen, does anyone have any good ways to talk them out of it? I will not deny them the wish if they wish for it, but i want to talk them out of it, any ways to help?

Starsinger
2008-12-14, 07:43 PM
I am currently DMing a game where everyone is level 6. I decided that for christmas, I would give everyone a free wish, not as the spell, but more generic.

This is where I encountered a problem, one of the players said they were going to wish for the Sword of Kas.

I have tried warning them of the implications, I let the other players try to warn them, but they won't listen, does anyone have any good ways to talk them out of it? I will not deny them the wish if they wish for it, but i want to talk them out of it, any ways to help?

A lot of 3.5 players and DMs seem to forget about this, thinking that the rules are unbendable or something, but you're the DM. Say No, it's your greatest power and right.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-12-14, 07:45 PM
You have one of two options.
Withdraw the offer. Make it clear that you where not expecting them to abuse the offer like this. May cause hard feelings, on the other hand who says that the sword even exists in your world.
Have the sword do what the sword should do, consipre to turn its wielder into a murdering maniac. If the other PCs are half decent the sword would probably prefer that the wielder ran to fight another day style of thing. And you have yourself a new PC and a new recurring villain.

kjones
2008-12-14, 07:46 PM
The Sword of Kas is a major artifact and is thus outside the scope of the "create a magic item" clause in the Wish spell. At least, that's what I would say to your players.

If they insist, they can still have the sword - but comes with Kas attached. Have fun convincing him to hand it over.

Project_Mayhem
2008-12-14, 08:05 PM
If they insist, they can still have the sword - but comes with Kas attached. Have fun convincing him to hand it over.

This. Do this. Do it.

Thurbane
2008-12-14, 08:16 PM
Silly question: which edition is this? Last time I saw stats for the Sword of Kas it was 2E - is there a 4E version now?

MeklorIlavator
2008-12-14, 08:18 PM
There's also a 3.5 version, in the back of the DMG among the other intelligent Items. In fact, if you do give him the sword it will go badly for him. The sword has a very powerful ego, so it will likely take over.

MisterSaturnine
2008-12-14, 08:18 PM
An alternative to giving him the Sword of Kas with Kas still attached would be to just give him the Sword of Kas. Of course, he never specified which Kas, so he just took the beat-up sword of Kas, random town guard #2.

Starsinger
2008-12-14, 08:19 PM
I really have to further emphasize that you should just say "No" instead of trying to find some jackasstastic way of turning his wish against him. "Merry Christmas, now I screw you over!" Just say, "No, wish for something else please, that's ridiculous, you're taking advantage of my generosity"

Thurbane
2008-12-14, 08:20 PM
There's also a 3.5 version, in the back of the DMG among the other intelligent Items. In fact, if you do give him the sword it will go badly for him. The sword has a very powerful ego, so it will likely take over.

Well I'll be...never noticed that before. Thanks for the info. :smallsmile:

Deth Muncher
2008-12-14, 08:33 PM
Right, so. I'm trying to find it, but I really can't. What is this Sword of Kas?


EDIT: Wikipedia for the win. But what kind of stats does it have?

only1doug
2008-12-14, 08:35 PM
I suggest you warn him all your players in the following fashion:

You should limit your wishes to level appropriate wishes or you will be transported to the wished for item which will be in the possession of a creature that is CR appropriate to have that item. if you wish for something overly powerful it could easily result in your deaths.
You have been warned.

then give them the parable of the three shipwrecked adventurers:

An human, a dwarf and a orc were shipwrecked on a desert island, for weeks they struggled together to survive and eventually built themselves a reasonable lifestyle.
One day they found a ring and realised it was a ring of three wishes.
the human wished he were surrounded by beautiful women and pop he was transported away.
the dwarf wished he were surrounded by gold and pop he was gone.
the orc thought for awhile and then realised he was lonly on the island and he wished that his friends were back with him, and pop they re-appeared.

the human had been arrested by the hareem guards and had been awaiting execution. the dwarf had been captured by the dragon who's hoard he had encroached on, the dragon was going to torture him until he revealed how he got in.

Arbitrarity
2008-12-14, 08:37 PM
Just give it to him. And watch what the sword's ego score can do.
:smallwink:

This isn't even "now I screw you over", it's "This is how the sword works. Dummy."

kamikasei
2008-12-14, 08:39 PM
Right, so. I'm trying to find it, but I really can't. What is this Sword of Kas?

3.5 DMG pg 282. It's a +6 unholy keen vorpal longsword granting a +10 to strength, and an intelligent item with a huge ego and several spells.


I am currently DMing a game where everyone is level 6. I decided that for christmas, I would give everyone a free wish, not as the spell, but more generic.

If the intent is for the game to continue after these wishes are granted - if it's something like meeting a powerful being and being granted a boon - and if this is known to the players, then it should be obvious to all concerned that the wishes should be reasonable and non-disruptive (and ideally driven by some character goal otherwise impossible to fulfill). Remind the players that you need to be able to give them challenges in order for the game to be playable. Tell this player specifically that that wish is out of bounds and that he should play nice.

Assassin89
2008-12-14, 08:43 PM
Give him a decoy sword or force him to be the first target whenever he calls lightning

Deth Muncher
2008-12-14, 08:43 PM
3.5 DMG pg 282. It's a +6 unholy keen vorpal longsword granting a +10 to strength, and an intelligent item with a huge ego and several spells.

Wow. This guy who's asking for this must be mentally deficient.

Douglas
2008-12-14, 08:46 PM
Tell him to read page 271 of the DMG, specifically the Items Against Characters section. Then tell him that the Sword of Kas is chaotic evil and has a very high Ego score.

If he still insists on it, let him have it and then play the sword appropriately. As a mere level 6 character he's almost never going to make the DC 34 save to be dominant over the sword, and it will at the very least want a wielder with power to match its own. If the player's character is not chaotic evil it should get a great deal worse.

Crow
2008-12-14, 08:53 PM
I really have to further emphasize that you should just say "No" instead of trying to find some jackasstastic way of turning his wish against him. "Merry Christmas, now I screw you over!" Just say, "No, wish for something else please, that's ridiculous, you're taking advantage of my generosity"

I'll go ahead and reiterate. This.

It is really likely that your player doesn't even know how this artifact works. This artifact will screw over your player, even without you going out of your way to do it. Explain the situation and ask your player to please make a more reasonable wish.

holywhippet
2008-12-14, 08:57 PM
This. Do this. Do it.

Oh yeah. I've seen a similar trick in the Knights of the Dinner table comic. The player wished for the magical scabbard which was a companion to the powerful sword he carried. The scabbard appeared, but it was still being worn by a very high level demon who was more than interested in acquiring the sword.

Thurbane
2008-12-14, 08:59 PM
Maybe after the sword has given the player (and possibly the whole party) the royal screwjob, Vecna (or a high ranking Cult member) can turn up and offer to take it off his hands...for a small fee... :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-14, 09:00 PM
Tell him to read page 271 of the DMG, specifically the Items Against Characters section. Then tell him that the Sword of Kas is chaotic evil and has a very high Ego score.

If he still insists on it, let him have it and then play the sword appropriately. As a mere level 6 character he's almost never going to make the DC 34 save to be dominant over the sword, and it will at the very least want a wielder with power to match its own. If the player's character is not chaotic evil it should get a great deal worse.

This, pretty much. The sword will be useless to the player - since it won't be interested in going on their petty adventures - and will use him to find a worthier wielder. The PC will end up being responsible for creating the new BBEG.

Of course, if we're talking wish spells here, the wish just won't work. The spell does not allow you to wish for anything your heart desires - it has clear parameters for what it can do.

Grail
2008-12-14, 09:07 PM
If you're not playing in Greyhawk, then you've got a real easy get out.

If you are, and you are adamant that you want him to be able to have it if he isn't going to take it back, then there are plenty of good ideas here. Of course, giving players a wish each at level 6 is IMO more than a little insane.

Lapak
2008-12-14, 09:17 PM
First of all, I'd make sure he has any reason to know of the existence of the Sword of Kas. It's not exactly the most famous artifact; even people who know of the existence of Vecna don't necessarily know the whole backstory of how he created an artifact for his lieutenant and all that followed.

Tell him to read page 271 of the DMG, specifically the Items Against Characters section. Then tell him that the Sword of Kas is chaotic evil and has a very high Ego score.

If he still insists on it, let him have it and then play the sword appropriately. As a mere level 6 character he's almost never going to make the DC 34 save to be dominant over the sword, and it will at the very least want a wielder with power to match its own. If the player's character is not chaotic evil it should get a great deal worse.Then do this. If he's determined to go ahead, then you're likely going to end up having your players roll up new characters. But it'll be a lesson they won't forget. I'm firmly of the belief that sometimes a player will do something so stupid that it WILL take the entire group down - and you have to let them. (Obviously, if it becomes a pattern then you have to intervene - but the first time around you warn, you give a chance to change things, but if they're determined you let them face the consequences.

Lemur
2008-12-14, 09:23 PM
If you're not playing in Greyhawk, then you've got a real easy get out.

If you are, and you are adamant that you want him to be able to have it if he isn't going to take it back, then there are plenty of good ideas here. Of course, giving players a wish each at level 6 is IMO more than a little insane.

Seconding this. Don't forget that as the DM, you're completely free to say "there's no such thing as the Sword of Kas" in this world. Just because it's in the DMG doesn't mean you have to put up with the crummy default fluff they throw in there.

And if you do end up giving him the sword, the first thing it should do is take control of him and say "screw you goody two-shoes, I'm going off on my own," and just have the player make a new character. That way the rest of the party and the campaign doesn't have to suffer (at least not immediately) for the foolishness of another character.

Either that, or you can give him a tiger-striped short sword that gives +5 to move silently and say, "Oh, I thought you said the Sword of CATS"

Kroy
2008-12-14, 09:29 PM
Just say "no, that's overpowered and would ruin the game (you just lost the game!), pick something more reasonable." Or something along those lines.

nhbdy
2008-12-14, 09:33 PM
oh, I intend to give it to them if they use their wish on it.

and this wish is not the spell wish it is a gift, and i don't mind beefing up enemies to compensate for what the party will wish for, I think it will be fun for them.

what I hoped to achieve with this post is how to make the player see reason for the rest of the party's sake.

but if they insist, the sword will behave as it would, and the player will be resposible for a great deal of hardship (believe me)

however, I must say, having them summon Kas aswell is pretty tempting

KKL
2008-12-14, 09:36 PM
Isn't Kas a Demigod of Wrath in Libris Mortis or a similar book?

nhbdy
2008-12-14, 09:39 PM
I only know what is in the DMG 3.5, the fact that he was Venca's second in command until he betrayed him

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-14, 09:43 PM
Isn't Kas a Demigod of Wrath in Libris Mortis or a similar book?

Nope, that's Cas or something. Different dude - an elk-headed deity, rather than a vampire lieutenant.

kjones
2008-12-14, 09:49 PM
Speaking of Knights of the Dinner Table, one of their ongoing antagonists in the series is an intelligent sword named Carvin' Marvin. The sword, when wielded by someone deemed "unworthy" (read: almost everyone), does all kinds of mean, nasty things - it could take over your body, force you to kill all your friends, and then hack off your own arm at the shoulder.

It had a personality like "Don Rickles with a migraine"... ponder this, young one.

KKL
2008-12-14, 10:01 PM
Nope, that's Cas or something. Different dude - an elk-headed deity, rather than a vampire lieutenant.

Right, right. Thanks.

Skaven
2008-12-14, 10:52 PM
Give him the sword of Kas.

He didnt wish for the current sword specifically did he?

Give him Kas's old training sword.

I'm sure he hasnt used that specific sword for his entire existence.

Starsinger
2008-12-14, 11:02 PM
... Why is everyone so intent on screwing this guy over?

Are you afraid of saying no, so instead you're trying to say yes in the most spiteful way possible?

OracleofWuffing
2008-12-14, 11:04 PM
Yup, the Sword of Kas falls one thousand feet, directly through the character's skull.

... But keeping more in heart with the Christmas-wishy-thing going on, how about giving him a Sword-of-Kas-Shaped-Lump-of-Coal instead? If you're still a bit generous, you could put a few more reasonable enchantments or something on it.

AmberVael
2008-12-14, 11:09 PM
This, pretty much. The sword will be useless to the player - since it won't be interested in going on their petty adventures - and will use him to find a worthier wielder. The PC will end up being responsible for creating the new BBEG.

Of course, if we're talking wish spells here, the wish just won't work. The spell does not allow you to wish for anything your heart desires - it has clear parameters for what it can do.

I like this idea for a number of reasons.
1) It grants the player's wish.
2) It doesn't directly screw over the players.
3) The plot is complicated and enhanced
4) There is a consequence.

Of course, this assumes that you do it the right way. Have the sword seek out a new wielder, and then have that wielder just smirk at the PCs, pet them on their heads for bringing it to him, and turn away.
Then you can make a plot about retrieving the sword or undoing whatever the BBEG did with it/plans to do with it/etc.

herrhauptmann
2008-12-14, 11:12 PM
I'd go with explaining it as a boon from a powerful or rich person. Not as a casting of the actual spell 'wish'.
Plus, if you do go with the spell 'wish', just be a vengeful bastard like DM's used to be back in the day.
scenario:
Player 1 enters special summoning chamber alone and speaks his wish, which is granted. Then leaves to show it off to rest of party.
Player 2 enters special summoning chamber alone and speaks his wish, which is granted. Then leaves to show it off to rest of party.
And so on until you get to Idiot player who wants the sword of Kas.
Idiot player enters special summoning chaber alone and speaks his wish, which is granted. Then spend a little time roleplaying him fighting his new sword for control. If by some chance he makes the natural 20 needed to beat its ego score several times in a row, let him keep the sword. Until the first situation arises which creates a need for a new check.
As soon as the sword wins, he attacks the party, leaves them for dead, and goes off on the swords agenda. Now send idiot player home to make a new character while you the DM restore the rest of the party to full health with apologies and continue with the adventure.
Make sure idiot player comes back with a character lower level than everyone else.

Grail
2008-12-15, 12:07 AM
and this wish is not the spell wish it is a gift, and i don't mind beefing up enemies to compensate for what the party will wish for, I think it will be fun for them.


If it is a gift, then you should have limits on it. How is a benefactor going to get hold of a Chaotic Evil artifact of such power? It should be a gp limit, something that is very tangible.

Now, saying all this and if he is going to get it, regardless of if it takes over him or not, keep this in mind.

Artifacts are powerful objects that the Gods themselves can take an interest in. The characters are only level 6, even accounting for a major modification in the power curve from getting all these fun things, other bigger things will come along and say "Give me that sword". If they don't hand it over meekly, then the big thing will simply take it. This is the way of Artifacts. They are both a boon and a curse, because everyone wants them.

Lapak
2008-12-15, 12:34 AM
... Why is everyone so intent on screwing this guy over?

Are you afraid of saying no, so instead you're trying to say yes in the most spiteful way possible?...

Several people have said 'just tell him no.' Many others have said some variation on 'stress that it is an extremely bad idea, but deliver on the natural consequences if he insists anyway.' A third group has said 'just have the Wish fail, as this is outside its parameters.'

Relatively few people are in the 'screw him without warning' camp.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-15, 12:36 AM
"No" is the boring option to post about. Posting ideas for what else to do is more fun, and most of those ideas inevitably have to screw the guy over (hopefully in ways that create more stuff to do to unscrew things), because the other alternative is to screw the game over.

RTGoodman
2008-12-15, 12:44 AM
How about this - a sort of compromise.

He wishes for the sword of Kas, and you say "yes" (since you've already said you don't want to say no). When he makes the wish in-game, nothing happens. When said PC asks why, say that the sword will be his... in time. Later, when he's more worthy, the sword will find HIM. At that point, he'll get the opportunity to take it (and perhaps be dominated by it's will) or give it up, in exchange for whatever Good-type reward you give him for NOT getting a super-powerful artifact of Evil.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 01:02 AM
So, they could wish for literally anything, and this is the best he could come up with?

If you wanted to be disruptive and overpowered, there are so many better options:

1) I want to become a Solar (or, if you prefer, Great Wyrm dragon of your choice)

2) Ask for the Shield of Pelor, or Angelwing Razor (BoVD) instead.

3) A pile of candles of invocation. Proceed to then wish for a bunch of other stuff. (this is the 'legal' version of "I wish for more Wishes)

I came up with those in about 1 minute.

Notice something common in all 3? They don't involve summoning a CE artifact that promptly eats you.

UglyPanda
2008-12-15, 01:10 AM
I'm curious, has the player given you a reason for why he wants this item other than it's an artifact? Does he lack experience with this game, or was he just idly thumbing through the DMG? There are plenty of other powerful swords out there that aren't going to turn you eviler and make you cut off your boss's hand.

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 01:29 AM
Give him the sword.


Skip over Kas completely

Have him start dreaming of a Lich who is looking for the sword that contains part of his soul

Thurbane
2008-12-15, 02:20 AM
Right, right. Thanks.
I must admit, first time I read HoH I thought the same thing, that Cas was the new version of Kas...

nhbdy
2008-12-15, 06:59 AM
I'm curious, has the player given you a reason for why he wants this item other than it's an artifact? Does he lack experience with this game, or was he just idly thumbing through the DMG? There are plenty of other powerful swords out there that aren't going to turn you eviler and make you cut off your boss's hand.

the person is new, and says they want it because it "looks cool"

I have explained it's ego score and what it means, but the player only thought that made the sword cooler

and for those of you that haven't noticed, I realize I can say no, but I have repeatedly said I will not, and this is why, if a player is going to do something stupid, they can do it, I will let them, and see how it goes, if it works out for the other players/storyline, I will let it be, if it doesn't (TPK) then in this case I will likely let everyone keep their characters, and make wishes, but make some kind of penalty on the player who caused this (most likely denying another wish or at least limiting it).

Grail
2008-12-15, 07:11 AM
I fail to see the reason why you've posted here then. You sound like you've done everything possible to try to talk the n00b out of this, short maybe of saying, you will lose your character, and those around you will probably die as well.

Maybe one other option is to show them something that looks cooler still....?

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 07:13 AM
I fail to see the reason why you've posted here then. You sound like you've done everything possible to try to talk the n00b out of this, short maybe of saying, you will lose your character, and those around you will probably die as well.

Maybe one other option is to show them something that looks cooler still....?

OH OH OH!!!!

Hand of Vecna

Grail
2008-12-15, 07:19 AM
OH OH OH!!!!

Hand of Vecna

Or The Head of Vecna (http://www.blindpanic.com/humor/vecna.htm)

Coidzor
2008-12-15, 07:21 AM
OH OH OH!!!!

Hand of Vecna

Good, but I've got one better.

Head of Vecna.

Ed: Curses, Ninja'd again!

What're the others going to wish for, or have they been more secretive?

nhbdy
2008-12-15, 07:26 AM
they haven't said what they will wish for, and i was posting here for ideas (of which i have gotten plenty, but more are allways good) and incase you thought of something i missed that would convince the player of their folly.

allthough the showing something cooler might work, but i think they are too new to fall for the head of venca, they haven't heard of the hand or eye.

Fixer
2008-12-15, 07:30 AM
Isn't Kas a Demigod of Wrath in Libris Mortis or a similar book?
There was an adventure book in 2nd edition that had Kas's details at that time. Kas had been turned into a vampire lord (after his betrayal of Vecna) with a very large amount of fighter levels, if I recall properly.

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 07:33 AM
they haven't said what they will wish for, and i was posting here for ideas (of which i have gotten plenty, but more are allways good) and incase you thought of something i missed that would convince the player of their folly.

allthough the showing something cooler might work, but i think they are too new to fall for the head of venca, they haven't heard of the hand or eye.

I would hope that if you did give him the sword, then dreams of a uber lich trying to remember where he put that last part of his soul, would encourage him to toss it in the trash asap.

if not, give him TRUE ULTIMATE POWER BAW HA HA

Kizara
2008-12-15, 08:29 AM
they haven't said what they will wish for, and i was posting here for ideas (of which i have gotten plenty, but more are allways good) and incase you thought of something i missed that would convince the player of their folly.

allthough the showing something cooler might work, but i think they are too new to fall for the head of venca, they haven't heard of the hand or eye.

Got the BoVD? Open it up to evil artifacts, check out the Angelwing Razor.

IMO the single coolest and most powerful weapon in DnD. All it is is a +5 vorpal longsword. That. Cuts. Through. ANYTHING (ignores all hardness and DR).

Nothing can stop you or your blade, it ignores even heavy fort armor (as it can cut through force and field effects). No intelligence, not even an overt evil aspect (like gain neg levels if you are good etc); gain all of the awesome with none of the screwed.

nhbdy
2008-12-15, 08:56 AM
yeah, that is a really nice sword, i do not know if the player will want it though, i will show it to them if they show any signs of getting anything except the sword of kas

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 09:01 AM
Dragon magazine has Kas the Vestige (for binders who wish to bind the spirit of Kas) So, in that sense, he's still, sort of, around.

metagaia
2008-12-15, 09:18 AM
The thing that worries me most about giving him the sword of Kas is not that it will invariably be the death of him, but that it will cause him to butcher his own party, thus unfairly punishing them for this players dubious wish.

The best I can think of is that opon receiving the sword of Kas, the wielder immediately sets off to try and kill Vecna again, not even bothering to kill the party unless they hinder it, but somehow that jars a little with the CE alignment.

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 09:23 AM
CEs can have varying priorities. In this case, The Sword has one main priority- kill Vecna. So, while under inluence of Sword, player isn't automatically going to slaughter his allies.

In fact, you could run a semi-heroic campaign with the Sword, and the player being a bit like Elric- dangerous, but not always lethal, to his allies.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 09:30 AM
CEs can have varying priorities. In this case, The Sword has one main priority- kill Vecna. So, while under inluence of Sword, player isn't automatically going to slaughter his allies.

In fact, you could run a semi-heroic campaign with the Sword, and the player being a bit like Elric- dangerous, but not always lethal, to his allies.

CHAOTIC Evil, distainful of all those below it, etc.

Really, the only reasonable way to RP a level 6 character being given such an item would be for it to promptly kill his party and him. The most you could fudge that would be that it simply refuses to be wielded by the PC.

PC *picks up the sword* *fails ego check*

Sword *forces PC to drop it*

PC 2 *picks up the sword* *fails ego check*

Sword *forces PC 2 to drop it*

You get the idea, and soon they would too.

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 09:36 AM
it is true that with such a high disparity in level between item and wielder, and the high Ego (32) its almost guaranteed to win ego checks. But, in the Intelligent Items description, there is a lot of slack for what can happen when player fails to win Ego check. Not all CEs are crazed slaughterers.

I wonder how 4th ed will handle It?- I think its due to appear in the next book- Open Grave. Artifacts aren't quite as "take over the user" in 4th ed as in 3rd ed. Though, in the case of Hand/Eye of Vecna, when the artifact Moves On, the user dies.

metagaia
2008-12-15, 09:44 AM
it is true that with such a high disparity in level between item and wielder, and the high Ego (32) its almost guaranteed to win ego checks. But, in the Intelligent Items description, there is a lot of slack for what can happen when player fails to win Ego check. Not all CEs are crazed slaughterers.

(It's ego 34 by the way) Since almost no level 6 character is going to have a will save of +15, it will assert itself 95% of the time. While there is some leeway, that is true, it really does have to be believable. The main thing that stops the slaughtering fest that is CE is another more powerful being/system keeping them in check (:belkar: is a good example of this). I like the dropping of the sword, but the most believable thing for me would be for the sword to slaughter the party (no witnesses, and it has no reason not to) and then use the wielder to find the most powerful CE creature on the plain.

only1doug
2008-12-15, 10:00 AM
it is true that with such a high disparity in level between item and wielder, and the high Ego (32) its almost guaranteed to win ego checks. But, in the Intelligent Items description, there is a lot of slack for what can happen when player fails to win Ego check. Not all CEs are crazed slaughterers.

I wonder how 4th ed will handle It?- I think its due to appear in the next book- Open Grave. Artifacts aren't quite as "take over the user" in 4th ed as in 3rd ed. Though, in the case of Hand/Eye of Vecna, when the artifact Moves On, the user dies.

Losing an Ego check (DMG Pg 270) states a list of options for the sword should it win and beneath the table is the following text: (synopsis)

an item might wish to have a more powerful character possess it so as to better achieve its goals.

A L6 character won't have much chance against Vecna, it will seek a more powerful weilder.

Cheese plan: if i were the player and i wanted to cheese it I'd cast protection from evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) (or any alignment really) for the mental protection element:


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

but i wouldn't try this cheese because it just won't work (and i try to avoid cheese, irritating the GM ain't my thing), if the protection wears off before 24 hours have passed then the dominated effect still kicks in, even if the PC is no longer weilding the sword. even if it didn't and he just cast prot evil before each battle then a single dispell leaves him under the control of a now very angry magic sword.

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 10:01 AM
there is one obvious reason not to- the chance that it might lose, its wielder be defeated, and it buried so it can't harm people.

But yes, that is highly unlikely.

However, CEs can be sneaky, cunning, able to grasp "enemy of my enemy is my ally, if not my friend"

People under the influence of the Vestige Kas, after binding him, are polite and friendly (and prone to committing betrayals) Also, they are compelled to destroy undead.

DMG2 described the Sword as "pasing from petty warlord to despotic ruler to murderous lunatic with willful glee"

Vorpal Soda
2008-12-15, 10:34 AM
Pull out a blank character sheet, and offer it to him whilst asking him if he's sure he really wants to wish for the Sword of Kas. Don't take the sheet back unless he changes his mind.

Starbuck_II
2008-12-15, 10:41 AM
Could give him a Weapon of Legacy Weapon of Kas?

Slowly by taking the ritual feats or doing what is required to get he feats:
He can get the Sword of Kas.

The more he unlocks the higher the Ego grows (maybe until; he unlocks least Ritual no ego).

Functions as a +3 version with no special abilities (needs to unlock them).

Da Beast
2008-12-15, 02:31 PM
Just explain to him how intelligent item ego scores work and that with an ego of 34 the Sword of Kas would pretty much turn his character into an NPC. If he still insists thst he wants the sword then give it to him and have his character leave to do the sword's biding.

kjones
2008-12-15, 03:00 PM
Could give him a Weapon of Legacy Weapon of Kas?

Slowly by taking the ritual feats or doing what is required to get he feats:
He can get the Sword of Kas.

The more he unlocks the higher the Ego grows (maybe until; he unlocks least Ritual no ego).

Functions as a +3 version with no special abilities (needs to unlock them).

Not a bad idea. Legacy weapon rules kind of suck, so maybe try making it so that in order to unlock its abilities, he needs to sacrifice treasure to it or something like that.

TheCountAlucard
2008-12-15, 03:21 PM
You said he said it looks cool?

Make it bright pink and covered in glitter. There's nothing in the entry to suggest that it's not pink and glittery...

Kidding, of course. If the fact that the sword will annihilate his character doesn't phase him, then this certainly won't.

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 03:22 PM
I think there was a pic of The Sword in 3.0 DMG.

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 03:45 PM
Theres always the Kas in Ravenloft,
Im sure his sword is more practical

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 03:48 PM
How practical the sword is, is really up to the DM. DMG2 recommended making the sword a recurring enemy, almost a campaign villain in its own right.

For the darker flavours of campaign, making it a tricky and dangerous ally would be an interesting change of pace.

After all, all we know is, its CE, it wants Vecna dead. Everything else is up to the DM- if the DM wants the weapon to be a subtle and tricky schemer, they can.

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 03:54 PM
How practical the sword is, is really up to the DM. DMG2 recommended making the sword a recurring enemy, almost a campaign villain in its own right.
For the darker flavours of campaign, making it a tricky and dangerous ally would be an interesting change of pace.
After all, all we know is, its CE, it wants Vecna dead. Everything else is up to the DM- if the DM wants the weapon to be a subtle and tricky schemer, they can.

I am working under the assumption that the OP doesn't think having the actual sword in his game is practical


I have tried warning them of the implications, I let the other players try to warn them, but they won't listen, does anyone have any good ways to talk them out of it? I will not deny them the wish if they wish for it, but i want to talk them out of it, any ways to help?

However with a minimum of word games, an option that dosn't completly risk destroying the party is the Dark Lord Kaz sword.

Hey, Death Knight Kaz even worked for Vecna

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 03:56 PM
Give him the "Sword of Chas". It's a longsword owned by some schmuck named Charlie, and guess what? It's an ancestral relic, and now he wants it back.

raichi
2008-12-15, 06:52 PM
This is the person who wanted the sword of Kas in nhbby's DandD game on her boyfriend's account.

I was only joking around about the sword of Kas btw. I want a scythe. LOL. Kas sounds like a fun person to fight against though XD XD

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 07:18 PM
This is the person who wanted the sword of Kas in nhbby's DandD game on her boyfriend's account.

I was only joking around about the sword of Kas btw. I want a scythe. LOL. Kas sounds like a fun person to fight against though XD XD

lol we are pwnt.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-12-15, 07:31 PM
Got the BoVD? Open it up to evil artifacts, check out the Angelwing Razor.

IMO the single coolest and most powerful weapon in DnD. All it is is a +5 vorpal longsword. That. Cuts. Through. ANYTHING (ignores all hardness and DR).

Nothing can stop you or your blade, it ignores even heavy fort armor (as it can cut through force and field effects). No intelligence, not even an overt evil aspect (like gain neg levels if you are good etc); gain all of the awesome with none of the screwed.

*agrees*

The Angelwing Razor is badass.

Though by fluff, you would have to be a puppy-raper to even consider using it, as it was created by sharpening the blade on the wings of captured angels.

EDIT: On a more on-topic note, it depends on whether the wish effect is uber-magical, magical, or mundane.

If it's some super-powered magic that can do whatever the heck it wants, give it to him. And then have a Solar with a metaphorically lead-lined container show up. Have it offer him a cool sword that's not an Artifact of Doom in exchange for the Sword, and if he doesn't bite, have it knock him out and take the Sword anyway. if you're feeling nice, have it leave the other cool sword next to him.

If it's plain-old magic, have it summon a sword that's a weaker version of the Sword of Kas, but isn't intelligent. The magic is granting your request to the best of it's ability, but isn't screwing the player over.

If the wish is mundane, say no. Nothing short of a minor deity is going to be able to get their hands on an Artifact of Doom.

Before you do any of this, though, explain to him exactly how dumb the request is.

Vorpal Soda
2008-12-15, 07:42 PM
You said he said it looks cool?

Make it bright pink and covered in glitter. There's nothing in the entry to suggest that it's not pink and glittery...

Is it wrong that your suggestion would make me want the sword even more? Would the sword leave pretty trails of glitter when swung? Of course, I'd probably end up becoming dominated, and therefore start going around doing acts of evil with a pink glittery sword, which would get an interesting reaction from people.

Thurbane
2008-12-15, 08:46 PM
On a side note, it's funny how the Sword of Kas continually seems to change size. IIRC, short sword in 1E, two-handed in 2E and longsword in 3E. :smalltongue:

herrhauptmann
2008-12-15, 10:21 PM
On a side note, it's funny how the Sword of Kas continually seems to change size. IIRC, short sword in 1E, two-handed in 2E and longsword in 3E. :smalltongue:

It's actually the evil twin brother to the Lion-o's Sword fo Omens from Thundercats.
thunder, Thunder, THUNDAR KAS HO!

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 11:00 PM
It's actually the evil twin brother to the Lion-o's Sword fo Omens from Thundercats.
thunder, Thunder, THUNDAR KAS HO!

Ohhhh
that was bad
that was very, very bad
shame on you

Deth Muncher
2008-12-15, 11:07 PM
It's actually the evil twin brother to the Lion-o's Sword fo Omens from Thundercats.
thunder, Thunder, THUNDAR KAS HO!

/thread, yo.

Khanderas
2008-12-16, 04:39 AM
It's actually the evil twin brother to the Lion-o's Sword fo Omens from Thundercats.
thunder, Thunder, THUNDAR KAS HO!
Oh. My. God.

Coidzor
2008-12-16, 04:50 AM
Give him the "Sword of Chas". It's a longsword owned by some schmuck named Charlie, and guess what? It's an ancestral relic, and now he wants it back.

heh. My first thought here was to jump to Chaz, Torg's blood-drinking sword from Sluggy Freelance.

horrible pun-pun-puns for the win.

Zen Master
2008-12-16, 05:10 AM
I am currently DMing a game where everyone is level 6. I decided that for christmas, I would give everyone a free wish, not as the spell, but more generic.

This is where I encountered a problem, one of the players said they were going to wish for the Sword of Kas.

I have tried warning them of the implications, I let the other players try to warn them, but they won't listen, does anyone have any good ways to talk them out of it? I will not deny them the wish if they wish for it, but i want to talk them out of it, any ways to help?

Hm - I'd do this.

First player to get his wish is the one who wants the sword of Kas. The sword, being intelligent, instantly suppresses the characters will, and goes on a rampage, killing the rest of the group.

One of the others will have to use his or her wish to return them all to the moment just before the fool asked and received his doom.

Naturally, the laws of the multiverse dictate that he has used his wish - even though he is now back in a time before he did.

herrhauptmann
2008-12-16, 12:03 PM
Ohhhh
that was bad
that was very, very bad
shame on you

Wasn't going to put the thunder-thunder thunder in there, until I realized just how painful it was. :smallbiggrin: Once I did, decided it was totally worth any response (except banning)

AKA_Bait
2008-12-16, 02:03 PM
Give him the "Sword of Chas". It's a longsword owned by some schmuck named Charlie, and guess what? It's an ancestral relic, and now he wants it back.

Man, is he going to be sorry once he realizes exactly how In Charge the previous owner was. I'm so sorry. I couldn't help myself.

------------------

Seriously though, if they understand that the sword will probably take over their character, then let them have the sword. Treat it as a smart CE character, i.e. it's not going to start slaughtering the party, or even reveal it's intelegence, until some moment that's to it's advantage. Treat the owners character as if under the effects of a dominate spell. It has orders it needs to follow if it fails the Ego check. The sword will then use it to get what it wants be that a more powerful weilder or some other maguffin you want. The player may, in fact, want to play a character under the domination of an evil sword. I'd make one rule the sword gives be not to reveal what it is to the rest of the party.

I see this scene:

PC goes into room to make wish.
PC wishes for sword of Kas.
Sword shows up, wins Ego contest.
PC comes out and shows the rest of the party his cool new 'Holy Avenger' without the alignment restriction.
PC encourages the rest of the party to go raid crypt x or seek out hero y.

Edit: If you want to be totally weird and christmassy, have the first thing the sword demands of the PC be that it go find and slaughter a 'kindly old elf' and bathe the blade in its blood.

Thurbane
2008-12-16, 03:44 PM
Alternatively, give the character the other sword of Kas - you know, the one he had before he was famous. If you're feeling generous, make it masterwork. :smalltongue:

herrhauptmann
2008-12-16, 08:31 PM
Edit: If you want to be totally weird and christmassy, have the first thing the sword demands of the PC be that it go find and slaughter a 'kindly old elf' and bathe the blade in its blood.

Are you implying they fight Santa Claus as a random encounter?

Thurbane
2008-12-16, 08:41 PM
Are you implying they fight Santa Claus as a random encounter?
He turns up on his sleigh, and gives magical weapons to all the kiddies...ho ho ho...now go defeat the bad witch and her armies! :smalltongue:

Deth Muncher
2008-12-16, 09:04 PM
He turns up on his sleigh, and gives magical weapons to all the kiddies...ho ho ho...now go defeat the bad witch and her armies! :smalltongue:

WotC actually released Santa's Stats a while back as a web suppliment.

AKA_Bait
2008-12-17, 10:23 AM
Are you implying they fight Santa Claus as a random encounter?

Random? Who said anything about random? I was suggesting they storm his dread workshop, slaughter his elven worker minions who are manufacturing his evil gifts, do in his bloodthirsty dire reindeer (especially that feindish dire one with the red nose), kill him and the lich queen who serves him (aprons and dimples do not automatically make you good aligned) and then take his many Bags of Holding and Sleigh of Greater Telportation.


WotC actually released Santa's Stats a while back as a web suppliment.

Yeah, they are here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20011222x) Not all that accurate imo.