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dragonhand
2008-12-14, 09:31 PM
what's your favorite class?

My favorite class is the scout.
the best class (i think) is the fighter. Make his race have a lot of racial e xotic weapons (dwarf to the dwarven waraxe for ex.) and you have a deadly melee, especially with great cleave with heavy damage weapon.

this is open to those who want to contribute. Give reasons for at least one of the answers if possible.

SuperFish
2008-12-14, 09:33 PM
Wizard is the best, mechanically.

I have a great love, though, for the Duskblade.

KKL
2008-12-14, 09:34 PM
The best class in 3.5e? Wizard.

My favorite? I've got a number of them. Gentlemen, I like Warblades. I like Crusaders. I like Factotums (Factoti?). I like Factotums (Factoti?) that PrC into Chameleon. I like Beguilers. I like Psions. I like Dervishes.

Crow
2008-12-14, 09:34 PM
I like the Ranger, as you can have a decent number of options in most any situation depending on the build. Wizard is the strongest mechanically though at mid to high levels. Druid is the strongest starting from low levels, and remains very powerful into high levels.

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 09:35 PM
i see why they're better than the sorcerer but i find that i hate doing the selecting spells.

and duskblades are a close favorite to me.



what are factotum?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 09:38 PM
Oh dear, this could go down fast...:smalleek:

My favorite classes are: Wizard, Rogue, and Bard

Best Class: Wizard (close run between it an Cleric/Druid)

EDIT: oops, forgot about Factutums. I like them a lot too.

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 09:41 PM
confused, what is the main reason wizard is the best class and how.

Crow
2008-12-14, 09:42 PM
confused, what is the main reason wizard is the best class and how.

Be prepared to lose your innocence...You will never look at D&D 3.5 the same way again.

Wait for it.

Captain Six
2008-12-14, 09:43 PM
I think my favorite class so far has been the Warlock. Sure you're not as strong as other arcanists, spell-like metamagic can get you close, but there's something more about it. Wizards and sorcerers can wield magic, but but a warlock has such a pure relationship. You don't construct limited, abstract effects, you throw raw magic around without a care because it never fades. A warlock IS the true face of the arcane, at least in my eyes.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 09:43 PM
Be prepared to lose your innocence...You will never look at D&D 3.5 the same way again.

May I do the honors?

Wizard has an answer to everything. A better answer to everything than anybody else.

EDIT: well, that's a little simplified, I suppose...

evil-frosty
2008-12-14, 09:45 PM
becuase they have the most options to powergame and at high lvls are very versatile depending on spell selection and can kick butt

good see there are some non power gamers left

Douglas
2008-12-14, 09:49 PM
Being Batman: the Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085)

Basically, a well built Wizard can do anything a Fighter (or just about any other class) can, plus a whole lot more. A Wizard can, without too much difficulty, stand up to a Fighter in melee combat if he really wants to and it isn't at a really low level. He'll generally just do something like cast Glitterdust, though, and laugh as the Fighter stumbles around blind and almost completely unable to fight back.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 09:59 PM
becuase they have the most options to powergame and at high lvls are very versatile depending on spell selection and can kick butt

good see there are some non power gamers left

Please, we prefer "optimizers". Powergamers sounds too... harsh. :smallbiggrin:

Also, Wizards can be pretty deadly in low/mid levels.

Rinzy
2008-12-14, 09:59 PM
My favorite, by far, are clerics. I love how many different options one has just based on the choice of diety (well, domains technically) and I love the class's spell list. They meake for great role playing, too. I'm *particularly* fond of negative energy clerics, at that :smallamused:

AmberVael
2008-12-14, 10:00 PM
Hmm. I thought many had argued Druids and Clerics to be superior, but perhaps I am wrong.

Anywho.

My favorite class at this point is probably Beguiler. Sorcerer and Factotum are also in there, and I do have a fondness for Warlocks.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 10:03 PM
Hmm. I thought many had argued Druids and Clerics to be superior, but perhaps I am wrong.


IMHO, Druids die off a little at high-levels, but beat out Clerics/Wizards at low levels.

Reinboom
2008-12-14, 10:05 PM
Best: Arguable.
Best with an understanding of basic game balance?
Best for a roleplaying sense?
Subjective.
Breaks the game fastest? I believe the Pazuzu calling familiar bearing caster does that right now.

Favorite classes for me...
Sorcerer, Beguiler, Favored Soul.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-14, 10:06 PM
confused, what is the main reason wizard is the best class and how.

{Scrubbed}

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 10:07 PM
Breaks the game fastest? I believe the Pazuzu calling familiar bearing caster does that right now.


Isn't he a paladin now? :smallbiggrin:

Reinboom
2008-12-14, 10:09 PM
Isn't he a paladin now? :smallbiggrin:

Ah, that might be because of how Pazuzu's wish granting is worded.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 10:15 PM
Ah, that might be because of how Pazuzu's wish granting is worded.

Something like that, I think...

I try not to think of Pun-Pun when possible.

Yukitsu
2008-12-14, 10:17 PM
Best is wizard. My favourites are wizards, scouts and rangers.

Starscream
2008-12-14, 10:21 PM
Best class?
Yes, Mr. Wizard, we all know you can rearrange our molecules with a snap of your fingers. Nobody is disputing that here, have a nice day. And my what an impressive hat.

Favorite class?
Monk. I know they'll never exactly win the Crystal Munchkin award at the Optimizers' Ball, but I love 'em. There's just something about the idea of being a guy who will walk up to a dragon, totally unarmored and spell-less, and then punch it in the face. They may not have the biggest attack bonus, but by gods if they don't have the biggest cojones.

Who_Da_Halfling
2008-12-14, 10:22 PM
I'm going to steer clear of the "best" question, since I'm not enough of an optimizer to know.

My favorites? I love the Knight, although I've never gotten to really play one, and the Duskblade and Swashbuckler seem very cool as well. Thematically, I still want to attempt a Necromancer who raises Undead as servants for Good, but I doubt I'll ever get the chance to play one. Unless he's a DM-NPC.....

-JM

Pie Guy
2008-12-14, 10:23 PM
Wizards aren't all that. You can easily beat them with monks.

Don't give people stupid ideas. Someone might actually believe them.

Seriously, the monk is a horrible class.
Basics:
Melee, but has a 3/4 BAB
Level 20 capstone just means you can be banished
d8 hit die, but expected to wade into combat with Flurry
Low skills

There are many more reasons, but I don't remember them all right now.

Anyway
Favorite: undecided
Best: Sorcerer

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 10:26 PM
a fighter with the best bull rush can close in on a wizard quickly and with a greatsword kill them in one. Even if he doesn't kill said wizard said wizard will probably be in single digits where hp is concerned.






EDIT:greater bull rush

Yukitsu
2008-12-14, 10:27 PM
a fighter with the best bull rush can close in on a wizard quickly and with a greatsword kill them in one. Even if he doesn't kill said wizard said wizard will probably be in single digits where hp is concerned.

Yeah, keep on believing that.

AmberVael
2008-12-14, 10:27 PM
They may not have the biggest attack bonus, but by gods if they don't have the biggest cojones.

And here I thought that enhanced movement speed was a sign of something else... :smalltongue:

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 10:28 PM
a fighter with the best bull rush can close in on a wizard quickly and with a greatsword kill them in one. Even if he doesn't kill said wizard said wizard will probably be in single digits where hp is concerned.

Between Fly, Phantom Steed, Contingency, Dim. Door, Battlefeild Control, Polymorph, and save-or-suck spells, the wizard's pretty safe against that.

RS14
2008-12-14, 10:31 PM
Don't give people stupid ideas. Someone might actually believe them.

Seriously, the monk is a horrible class.
Basics:
Melee, but has a 3/4 BAB
Level 20 capstone just means you can be banished
d8 hit die, but expected to wade into combat with Flurry
Low skills

There are many more reasons, but I don't remember them all right now.

Anyway
Favorite: undecided
Best: Sorcerer

Pst. Joke. Now stop arguing about what is best. Someone has already posted "Being Batman," and that should be enough for any one thread.

My personal favorite is ranger, though scout and warlock both look very fun, if I can get my hands on their respective sourcebooks.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-14, 10:31 PM
a fighter with the best bull rush can close in on a wizard quickly and with a greatsword kill them in one. Even if he doesn't kill said wizard said wizard will probably be in single digits where hp is concerned.

{Scrubbed}

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 10:33 PM
{Scrubbed}

Oh dear... I had a feeling this thread would head this way. :smallfrown:

Starscream
2008-12-14, 10:35 PM
And here I thought that enhanced movement speed was a sign of something else... :smalltongue:

That's for after you've punched a dragon in the face. Just because many monks use int as a dump stat doesn't mean they are all idiots.

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 10:35 PM
my dad (who's the family dm and has been playing since 1st) pointed basicallywhat mushroom ninja said.

force cage, fireball (a lot,) lightning, more fireball, fly, etc.

so technically wizard is the best class, but sneaky based classes can do certain things a spellcaster can't, also they can be easily overswarmed with goblins wielding a bunch of javelins.

Yukitsu
2008-12-14, 10:36 PM
Yeah, you keep on believing that.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 10:38 PM
my dad (who's the family dm and has been playing since 1st) pointed basicallywhat mushroom ninja said.

force cage, fireball (a lot,) lightning, more fireball, fly, etc.

so technically wizard is the best class, but sneaky based classes can do certain things a spellcaster can't, also they can be easily overswarmed with goblins wielding a bunch of javelins.

Well, actually "batman wizards" (the generally-assumed strongest variety) actually prefer save-or-suck/save-or-die spells to blasty things like fireballs in most cases.

The big problem with wizard, balancewise, is that they can actually deal with things like swarms of javelin-goblins (with spells like wind-wall and sleep) and they can actually sneak better than most sneaky-classes (with invisibility and teleport).

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 10:39 PM
rs_14:in case you don't know
scout complete adventurer
warlock complete arcane

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 10:40 PM
Well, actually "batman wizards" (the generally-assumed strongest variety) actually prefer save-or-suck/save-or-die spells to blasty things like fireballs in most cases.

The big problem with wizard, balancewise, is that they can actually deal with things like swarms of javelin-goblins (with spells like wind-wall and sleep) and they can actually sneak better than most sneaky-classes (with invisibility and teleport).

can they pick locks?:smallconfused:

allonym
2008-12-14, 10:41 PM
Oh dear, this could be painful.

Schadenfreudian, even.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 10:41 PM
can they pick locks?:smallconfused:

knock: 2nd level spell

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 10:43 PM
......
i still hate selecting spells.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-14, 10:45 PM
......
i still hate selecting spells.

Yeah, that's the annoying thing about Wizards. It takes forever to make up one for a high-level game from scratch.

Personally, however, I prefer Wizard spell selection to Sorcerer spell selection because you aren't stuck with them for so long.

Yukitsu
2008-12-14, 10:45 PM
That's actually the strongest argument I've ever heard against wizards, as to be honest, it is a royal pain.

TempusCCK
2008-12-14, 10:45 PM
Meh, Dragon, please stop. It's only going to get worse and it's not worth talking about. Pretty much the argument boils down to, as long as the wizard has access to every single spell ever and knows exactly what is going to happen, he will be ready to dominate anything else. It's stupid and boring and it's a completely hypothetical situation, but please, just drop it.

As far as my favorite class, I can pick a different one every day, really all depending on what concept I'm thinking of at the time. Rangers and Paladins come out first, with Fighters and Sorcerors not far behind.

RS14
2008-12-14, 10:48 PM
rs_14:in case you don't know
scout complete adventurer
warlock complete arcane

I know, but thanks. I just don't have the money to spend on books right now. Maybe when I get a group, someone will have one of them.

Oh, I really like Fax's redone paladin as well.

dragonhand
2008-12-14, 11:02 PM
ok just checking, and i hope you get enough money.

i would like to add something, which race goes best with the class? Put which book it's from if we will most likely not know what it is. (a creature from monster's manuel won't need it for ex.)

scout:Catfolk (miniatures handbook) or some other race for dex.
fighter:any that's str/con oriented with maybe dex

Yukitsu
2008-12-14, 11:07 PM
From an optimizer standpoint, human is almost always the one I see. The only ones that I typically see other races for are ones that require specific races for a needed PrC, casters with SAD and fighters who don't really need that other feat. Casters best choice is grey elf, star elf, or IIRC lesser Asimar. To be perfectly honest, I don't recall the best clerical or wisdom based casting racel, as LA+0 wisdom increasing races are rare. Fighters can do well with half orc or other strength increasing races, and they can do well with templates, as their class doesn't actually contribute to their abilities.

Defiant
2008-12-14, 11:10 PM
Best Class: Wizard

My Favourite Class: Marshal

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-14, 11:26 PM
Favorite Class:ToB and Warlock(houseruled to have more invocations).

Best Class:Druid. Yes, a Wizard can be more powerful, but a Druid can break the game with no skill needed whatsoever. N00b Wizards will throw Fireballs because it's fun, n00b Druids will turn into Bears, have a pet cat, and be more effective than the Fighter.

Best race:Humans overall, Dwarfs are a close second. Lesser Assimar are good for Clerics, Elf subraces for Wizards, and Jermaline and Anthromorphic Bats are good for Druids.

AslanCross
2008-12-14, 11:26 PM
I won't add to the "best" class anymore.

My favorite is the Warblade. I love melee, and the Warblade can do melee really well. I'm not such a big fan of tanking, but I am a huge fan of taking something down with an incredibly powerful single strike (or lots of them). Warblade does this well.

Second place is Duskblade, for the above reasons.

Third place is Artificer, though its cheesiness level is also close to 9000, if not over it. The Artificer just takes more time (and money) to prepare, but by golly. Scrolls from every spellcasting class.

Vortling
2008-12-14, 11:37 PM
Favorite class? Hard to pick. I'd say Swordsage, Cleric, Factotum, and Rogue are standing at a 4 way tie for my first choice.

Grail
2008-12-14, 11:39 PM
My fav is Paladin.
I think the strongest is Favoured Soul, at high levels anyway. Being able to be a flying mojo with Antimagic Shell on you puts paid to wizards. And Clerics can't fly if they've got AMS cast.

OverdrivePrime
2008-12-14, 11:47 PM
My favorite class is a toss-up between the Bard, and the mythical ranger as I imagine the class should be designed, where you don't need to take lame ol' two-weapon fighting or archery combat style. Really, my ideal PC is a Human Scout 4/Ranger 16 where you take the "Spiritual Guide" alternate class feature from Complete Champion where you swap out your Animal Companion for a bonus on nature-based skill checks, and commune with nature. Well, that or a Transmuter wizard with Evocation and Enchantment banned. :smallamused:

Shadowbane
2008-12-14, 11:50 PM
Best is wizard, and it is also my favorite. Close second is ranger.

Bosh
2008-12-14, 11:58 PM
ok just checking, and i hope you get enough money.

i would like to add something, which race goes best with the class? Put which book it's from if we will most likely not know what it is. (a creature from monster's manuel won't need it for ex.)

scout:Catfolk (miniatures handbook) or some other race for dex.
fighter:any that's str/con oriented with maybe dex

Kobolds make far and away the best wizards.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-12-15, 12:04 AM
As AslanCross and others have stated, I have nothing but the highest praises to be given to the Warblade class and all because of one thing..the Iron Heart discipline. I have no idea why but it strikes such a cord with me that given the choice to only ever be able to play one class it'd be a warblade who'd likely have Iron Heart every time. (maybe with a home-brewed discipline or two tossed in as well, but not neccesary).

Knaight
2008-12-15, 12:09 AM
Best: Wizard, Druid, Planar Shepard

Favorite: Warblade, Warlock, other systems with classless characters.

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 12:29 AM
Best class: Depends. Highest levels of optimization? Commoner. No, seriously. Ok, so Paladin has a little wording room, but a level 1 Commoner can ascend to godhood. All he needs to do is make a Knowledge-check to summon Pazuzu, Wish for a Candle of Invocation, use the Candle of Invocation to Wish for an Efreet, have the Efreet to produce 3 Candles of Invocation and repeat a few times. Then use the Candles to summon more Efreets for more Wishes and become a scaled one of Toril (Kobold for stylepoints), summon a Sarrukh, have them grant you their "grant supernatural ability"-ability or whatever, use few loops to get all stats into infinity, few more loops to ascend to godhood and gain the ability to come up with your own class/racial features. That's pretty much it. You, a level 1 NPC class, just became an overdeity. Just never do that in real game. Seriously. You'll find your IRL self eating your cooked pants from D&D books soon enough.

High optimization without Candles of Invocation, Wish/Gate abuse, early qualification for Epic Feats, infinite loops and other things that just make the game unplayable? Wizard, Erudite (Psion-variant using "spells to powers"-variant), Cleric or Archivist on the higher levels. Druid on the earlier levels. Wizard's mostly nuts due to Incantatrix, Cleric and Archivist both have access to Dweomerkeeper, Druid goes Planar Shepherd I guess, but is still left feeling extremely inadequate, and Erudite just multiaction novas everything with the combination of the best spells and powers that should've never existed together. Since all of them pretty much have the capability to annihilate the multiverse, I'm not going to bother figuring out who of them has the largest chance of annihilating the others without dying. Basically though, the thing to realize:
-Arcane magic is the king. Once you get 9th level arcane spells, you just become unstoppable, except by people commanding similar arcane magic. Heck, it starts much earlier. Basically, spells such as Celerity, Contingency (and few other variants - there's at least one contingent level 9 Evocation-spell I think), Battlemagic Perception, Moment of Prescience, Anticipate Teleport, Time Stop, Foresight, Polymorph Any Object (great to assume any form permanently by casting twice), etc. mean that you'll be acting first. With the power at your command, that's enough (against people without similar powers - between two casters, it gets way more exciting). Your offense comes from Maw of Chaos, the various Orb-spells, Shivering Touch, Enervation, Disjunction/Dispel-effects, Avasculates, and Shapechange-granted abilities (really, you could kill anything with these alone - Shapechange is every bit as ridiculous as Gate and Wish, but without the XP cost; can be reined in by forbidding few stupid loops, but it still goes to boost your stats skyhigh regardless of the starting stats).
-The reason there's such a varied Top bunch is because arcane magic on high levels of optimization isn't Wizard/Sorcerer-specific; Clerics have their Domains (which need to be abused a great deal on higher levels of optimization to gain sufficient spell access), Archivists can acquire any divine spells at all (including Domains and such), Erudites have the "Spells to Powers"-variant, and heck, Druid has Shapechange options that grant Wizard-casting (but using those limits the Druid quite a bit and he still doesn't have as juicy PrC access as the rest of the characters). Artificer deserves to be up there too, but frankly, you can't PrC sufficiently from Artificer meaning you'll need craptons of items to truly keep up, and even then, you just miss out on the biggest goodies (free metamagic makes up for much though - Artificers and Druids are the most versatile of the big classes early on as Artificer can make anything and monkeys and melees well, while Druid melees twice as well as anyone else, and can monkey in a different way relatively well while still casting).

On lower levels of optimization, it boils down to Wizard/Archivist // Druid setup from early to late levels.


Favourite class: Oh my! I love so many classes! Wizards are awesome fun to play, Druids are insanely enjoyable, Bards rock (!!), Archivist [Heroes of Horror] Archers rock, Factotums [Dungeonscape] are just plain awesome, Ardents, Psions & Psychic Warriors [Expanded Psionics & Complete Psionics] are superb, Warblade/Crusader/(Unarmed) Swordsage [Tome of Battle] are easily up there, Totemist [Magic of Incarnum] is a big favourite, man do I love Binders [Tome of Magic], Barbarians can be great fun (only when built to do more than one thing though!), Fighters built with enough sources can be enjoyable [DUNGEONCRASHER! That's about it for interesting Fighter-options though], Knight can be fun (if only ToB didn't do everything in a better, more interesting way...I really wish they'd made Knight a ToB class) and I can find appeal in most skill monkeys, such as Rogues & Scouts (I prefer Factotum for the versatility though - I can literally make whatever I want). When I don't want the Druid's brokenness, but want the feel, I'll play a Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms. That's an awesome character right there too. Thank god for alternative class features saving bleh concepts (Mystic Ranger too)!

Oh yeah, and Sorcerers and pulling the whole "I'm the blood of a Dragon, and you sir, are about to feel my breath" is just a blast (of course, the reason I consider playing Sorcerers are their unique spells - Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, there're such Sorcerer-only goodies that it feels criminal not to utilize them every now and then). Clerics I'm oddly not fond of - I guess it's just that I hate the idea of my great hero getting his power from some outside entity. He's the hero, damnit! The power is supposed to be internal, not some X God's! Druid sort of sidesteps this with the whole "I'm nature and nature is me"-shtick, but it just doesn't work the same with personified Gods.


Oh yeah, and I love homebrew versions of the bleh classes. Sublime Way Marshal, Ranger & Swashbuckler are just awesome, the F&K Monk is cool (although I still prefer Unarmed Swordsage as the optimal fix - ToB is just that fun), some Barbarian-variants are interesting too, there're many proficient Fighter-fixes abound (although I mostly gravitate towards "Warblade with bow & armor proficiencies") and the Paladin has been fixed a few times (although Crusader...). I haven't yet seen a Sublime Way Knight, but am looking forward to that one; should be interesting!

So basically, I just think every martial class should be ToBified for maximal fun, arcane magic should make way for psionics as the primary casting system (with most interesting spells transferred of course) and half-casters should either become ToBBers or half-caster ToBBers. Either works.

Fishy
2008-12-15, 12:30 AM
Spirit Shaman!

It's all the things that make Druids fun, without any of the things that make druids un-fun. You can blast like a sorcerer, except you have metamagic if you want it and you can swap your spells every morning if you try something and it doesn't work. No Animal Companion and no Wild Shape mean you don't have to memorize the Monster Manual, you aren't eating up two turns every round, and you can't accidentally be better than the fighter. Your class abilities are situational, but useful, flavorful and fun, and that's before you count the awesome Guide Magic at level 10. And what other spellcasting class are you taking to level 10?

Also, you have a little voice in your head that tells you to set things on fire.

Best. Class. Ever.


My second favorite class would be Archivist, just because I love the character archetype, and the Dark Knowledge ability is unique, flavorful and powerful. If only their spellcasting weren't so absolutely screwed up. I haven't had a chance to try it out, but I feel certain that a Spontaneous Divine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) Archivist would be a hoot.

WaterTengu
2008-12-15, 01:32 AM
i like playing any and all classes, but i am infamous for my rogues.

Bosh
2008-12-15, 01:33 AM
I've never got to play a Spirit Shaman but the casting mechanic does look like boatloads from fun, basically the most fun aspects of Vancian and Spontaneous casting mashed together. Probably not especially powerful compared to other full casters, but then it's a full caster so that's power enough right there.

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 01:53 AM
Most of my dreams are laid in cold, giant lands of icy wastes and gloomy skies, and of wild, wind-swept fens and wilderness over which sweep great sea-winds, and which are inhabited by shock-headed savages with light fierce eyes. With the exception of one dream, I am never, in these dreams of ancient times, a civilized man. Always am I the barbarian, the skin-clad, tousle-haired, light-eyed wild man, armed with a rude ax or sword, fighting the elements and wild beasts, or grappling with armored hosts marching with the tread of civilized discipline, from fallow fruitful lands and walled cities. This is reflected in my writings, too, for when I begin a tale of old times, I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization.

Animefunkmaster
2008-12-15, 01:55 AM
I tend to start a game as a rogue or a warrior type.

My favorite class is binder, loads of flavor, class abilities that tend to generate rp.

Strongest class: Wizard or Codzilla

Favorite race: Changling

Dienekes
2008-12-15, 02:58 AM
Most rigged class is Wizard (though one guy I knew had an extremely overpowered Cleric, guy was nuts)

My favorite class was the Fighter, yes it was not the most powerful class. But I liked the idea of that warrior, not unintelligent (ok, I wasn't much of a minmaxer) who goes into combat depending on their personal strength and skill over some deus ex machimatic spells. Sure they weren't as specialized as barbarians, or scouts. But I liked to fool myself into thinking I could use the feats to make my own distinct specialized warrior.

mikeejimbo
2008-12-15, 03:25 AM
I know we're past this, but, wouldn't the plural of Factotum be Factota? I mean, it looks like a Latin 2nd declension, neuter to me.

Though it might be one of those weird ones.

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 03:30 AM
The thing is, it's thoroughly Englishized, which includes English declensions (or well, plural because English is too cool for cases...). But yes, you got the etymology right according to Webster's.

Leon
2008-12-15, 03:42 AM
Best Class: the one that does what YOU want

My Favorites: Sorcerer, Druid*, Fighter



*Not a run of the mill Wildshape/natural spell druid

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-15, 03:43 AM
Best Class: the one that does what YOU want


/kiss

My favourite: Fighter, Rogue, because of they customizability. From a flavour (!!!) standpoint, I love Druids too.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 08:01 AM
When it comes to races, I'm fond of humans, Grey elves, halflings (especially strongheart halflings), and changelings.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-15, 10:46 AM
Fave class? Probably beguiler. But warlocks are also very cool.

ken-do-nim
2008-12-15, 10:54 AM
I find that every time I play a tank or other non-mobile character, though I kick butt eventually there comes a time when the rest of the party is massacred or flees and I am stuck facing all the baddies myself and I go down. So I have to say, I prefer playing a character with an out, be that high tumble skill or a dimension door you can count on. My 2 longest played 3.5 characters have been a monk and a sorcerer so both had that, but of the two the sorcerer was slightly more fun because even with a sorcerer's limited spell list, he really had so much variety each round of actions to choose from.

DigoDragon
2008-12-15, 10:58 AM
Best Class: the one that does what YOU want

Yeah, that's a fact. :smallsmile: I can play most any class and I generally don't optomize all the way. A few flaws make for good roleplaying. Right now my favorite class is cleric.

Telonius
2008-12-15, 11:05 AM
My favorite characters are usually high-charisma tricksters. Bards, Rogues, Warlocks, and Sorcerers are all up there. Rogues and Warlocks are at the top, with Rogue narrowly edging out Warlock.

JellyPooga
2008-12-15, 11:14 AM
I think I'll always be a Rogue at heart...if I play another class, it'll usually be a bit of a scoundrel, a sneaky-git, a cad or a boundah.

Having said that, I have a lotta love for Warlocks and like the idea of Spirit Shamans and Scouts (I just wish there was a PrC that stacked the abilities/flavour of those two in some way). I loathe Wizards and Warmages (but not the other Arcanist Classes) and you'll never see me play a Good-aligned Cleric (Necromancer Clerics on the other hand...). Pretty much everything else fits in somewhere in-between for me.

As far as Race goes, I like to play the exotic, the fanciful and peculiar. I don't like playing Humans or Elves or Dwarves...give me Half-Ogres, Tieflings, Catfolk and Kobolds, Lizardfolk, Lycanthropes and Grigs.

Charity
2008-12-15, 11:35 AM
Fave class? Probably beguiler. But warlocks are also very cool.

See, until I saw one played I would have said Beguiler as well, but the problem with them is all their spells are save or suck, which tend to either win the fight in a dull way our fizzle into an anticlimax... I think it would be a ToB class, prob Warblade for me.

Kesnit
2008-12-15, 11:47 AM
Between Fly, Phantom Steed, Contingency, Dim. Door, Battlefeild Control, Polymorph, and save-or-suck spells, the wizard's pretty safe against that.

He didn't say what level fighter or wizard... :smallbiggrin:

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 11:52 AM
He didn't say what level fighter or wizard... :smallbiggrin:

THis is true, but most of these options are available from fairly low levels.

brant167
2008-12-15, 11:56 AM
My favorite class is Paladin(preferably of freedom), sure they aren't the strongest class but I find it to be the most fun to play. Most likely because I get so tired of being the bad guy when I dm so its nice to play the knight on a shinning...horse/rhino/whatever every once in a while.

Kesnit
2008-12-15, 11:58 AM
THis is true, but most of these options are available from fairly low levels.

But not all of the above. :smallwink:

Favorite class(es):
1. Monk. I couldn't care less if they suck - they are fun and I don't play in a group of powergamers.
2. Hexblade. Unless the DM puts us up against nothing but Undead. (Mind effecting doesn't work, which took out my curse and most of my spells. And my weapon couldn't overcome their DR because I couldn't afford to buy good cold iron and silver weapons.)
3. Wild Mage. Nothing like casting a spell and having a bunch of woodland creatures appear out of thin air! :smallbiggrin:

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 12:05 PM
But not all of the above. :smallwink:


True. Level 1-3ish, I would put Wizard vs. Fighter down as a "whoever wins init. wins the battle". Assuming that they started fighting relativly close to eachother.

Kris Strife
2008-12-15, 12:18 PM
Favorite class: toss up between Paladin (with Greyguard) especially with the multiclassing feats in Comp Adv and maybe some Comp War Kensai levels and Warmage. Sure, may not be the uber optimized, but being a holy knight with some tricks up his sleeves or being an armor clad blaster sounds like fun to me.
And race, half elf. Again, not the 'best', but hitting middle age when a human is close to venerable and no stat penalties or lvl adjustment sounds good. I also enjoy the half dragon (gold) template.

Spiryt
2008-12-15, 12:31 PM
Fauvorite class: Rangers and Barbarians.

Most Powerful: Iron Maiden.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 12:33 PM
Most Powerful: Iron Maiden.

Iron Maiden? From whence comes this class?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 12:38 PM
Wait for it...

...wait for it...

spellthieves

...what?

Epinephrine
2008-12-15, 12:39 PM
I'll avoid best, but among my favorites of the base classes:
Druid
Scout
Spellthief

I just enjoy these types. I like the varieties of druidic types, from AC dependent through shapeshifters, and especially the solo hunter types.

Scouts are the non-casting druid to me, epitomising what they tried for with the ranger. I'd like to see scout options for animal companions (the light cavalry variant has this, essentially, through their mount), but I like the style of the scout.

Spellthief is underpowered but blends aspects I really like, and as an anti-caster is great fun. Too slow a spell progression with too few spells slots. Skill points are too tight for the spellthief - you'll likely be expected to fill a rogue's role, and will likely also need to have knowledge of spellcraft. And you need to invest in Cha for your spells (at least to some extent - you'll want at least 14 Cha for spellcasting). Just too tight.

Spiryt
2008-12-15, 12:56 PM
Iron Maiden? From whence comes this class?

Pure power! (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1nERoMgzCO8)

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 01:00 PM
Pure power! (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1nERoMgzCO8)

High-level Bards?

HolderofSecrets
2008-12-15, 01:24 PM
I really don't care about the best class as I used to be a Wizards Forum Regular and knowing all that I do from there has shown me that you shouldn't be trying to when D&D, you should be enjoying D&D. Things that get in your way in doing that can come from anywhere. I am still an optimizer but only in the since that my characters tend to be stronger then those with out a plan for there characters.

The classes I like are Druids, Artificers, Swordsages.

The classes I don't like and can't play very well are Rogues, Wizards, Clerics.

My favorite characters were Flint a Warforged Artificer and Geriden a Killoren Druid/Ninja with Fleshraker animal companion. The funny thing about Geriden was his original plan included a level in Swashbuckler but another player in the group protested about having a Pirate Ninja Druid in the Party. As it was just to high a sanity check for her to make.

PurinaDragonCho
2008-12-15, 01:30 PM
Another vote for Archivists. Awesomely fun class. Like a dark Indiana Jones.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 01:45 PM
Another vote for Archivists. Awesomely fun class. Like a dark Indiana Jones.Factotum. Indiana Jones. No dark, just pure, unadulterated Indy.

7th lvl scrub
2008-12-15, 03:34 PM
Best Class: I'm not even going to bother adding this at this point.

Favored Class: Personally I like the melee types that aren't fighters. I love a Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker as long as I have my friend playing a wizard, with hold person or charm person prepared and scrolls of each. Warblade is simply amazing for a melee character, and Crusader is awesome as well.

Then there's always the Paladin PrC Gray Guard who can be the party's personal, "You broke the law/you're evil, I can kill/torture you!" guy...

dragonhand
2008-12-15, 03:34 PM
How good's a dragon shaman out of curiosity?
The breath weapon looks good and being able to help your teammates at the drop of a hat could be useful.

and now: comparisons (if you want to do it)

better: hexblade, duskblade, psionic warrior, any other fighter/some sort of magic user in one.


personally i say the duskblade.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 03:40 PM
How good's a dragon shaman out of curiosity?
The breath weapon looks good and being able to help your teammates at the drop of a hat could be useful.


Well, it's a blast to play, but there are other classes that get the job done a good bit better.

dragonhand
2008-12-15, 03:46 PM
true and........
How on earth did we get to 4 pages in less than 48 hours?

if someone says "by posting" or some other literal comment, just know that the question is rhetorical.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 03:49 PM
true and........
How on earth did we get to 4 pages in less than 48 hours?

if someone says "by posting" or some other literal comment, just know that the question is rhetorical.

The first post included the words: "what is the best class?" That's basically a guarantee that there will be many (possibly angry) posts.

Luckily, this thread has avoided it, but we almost saw this thread turn into a "class wars" thread.

AslanCross
2008-12-15, 03:53 PM
On the subject of race for the Warblade, I think almost any race can do it well.
The following I think do it particularly well, though. (Not including Human for obvious reasons.)

-Elf, though arguably they do Swordsage better due to their generally higher Dex.
-Dwarf, Warforged, any high-Con race: Good for tanking, though Crusader tanks better. I'm currently playing a Warforged Stone Dragon specialist, though. Charging Minotaur FTW.
-Hobgoblin. Can't go wrong with high Dex and Con. Even by ToB lore, they invented the Iron Heart school. Just get your DM to waive the LA.


How good's a dragon shaman out of curiosity?
The breath weapon looks good and being able to help your teammates at the drop of a hat could be useful.



Dragon Shaman is okay. It's pretty tough for a non-combatant, so it would do better supplemented by a melee class (such as barbarian). I ran the Eberron adventure Hell's Heart once and one of my players was a halfling Barbarian/Dragon Shaman. Her aura boosted the PCs' attacks for some very OOTS-like moments. ("...wait. I forgot my extra damage." "Oh. Yeah. The mohrg is dissolves into a puddle of smoldering goo.")

And yes, I think the Duskblade is the best out of that lot.

dragonhand
2008-12-15, 03:56 PM
...i see...

at any rate, as i said earlier, which fighter/magic user in one class (ie. hexblades, psionic warrior) is the best.

Sir Giacomo
2008-12-15, 03:57 PM
Best class? Difficult to tell. Depends on campaign setting, level and rules allowed. Most often also combat and outside combat category are vastly different.

Favourite class?
So far in Core: Bard (built to be a poet fighter)
Non-core: Beguiler (built to be a scholar/loremaster lateron)

- Giacomo

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 04:00 PM
...i see...

at any rate, as i said earlier, which fighter/magic user in one class (ie. hexblades, psionic warrior) is the best.

I've not played enough Psychic warriors and Duskblades to tell which of the two is better, but I know that Hexblade isn't quite as good.

Drascin
2008-12-15, 04:03 PM
Best: I'd go with Druid, thanks to being awesome in every level. Wizard starts "good" and gets to "GOD", but Druid starts at "one-man party" and keeps like that for his whole career. I like being independent, so...

Favorite: Mmmm... Three-way tie beteen Psion, Factotum and Warblade

OverdrivePrime
2008-12-15, 04:38 PM
On the subject of race for the Warblade, I think almost any race can do it well.
The following I think do it particularly well, though. (Not including Human for obvious reasons.)

-Elf, though arguably they do Swordsage better due to their generally higher Dex.

I think the best reason to play an elf for any of the ToB classes is to get access to Bows without having to burn a feat on weapon proficiency. The +2 dex is nice, the -2 con hurts, but the ability to do damage from beyond 50 feet is priceless.

RebelRogue
2008-12-15, 04:41 PM
Lately, I've been gravitating towards rangers and paladins, but I'll play most classes, really.

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 05:06 PM
Favorite classes...Conjourer(Wizard), Cleric, and Bard

Played in the TRUE fashion of TLN's guide. Making DMs cry through elevating your TEAMMATES to nearly diety level potency. Possible to break the game with any of the above classes without doing a single point of damage or killing a single foe yourself. Thats fun for me, and usually fun for those I play with.

If those aren't allowed, I really like Crusaders and Dragonfire Adepts. Crusaders are just plain old awesomesause, and DFAs are like a mini-wizard with similar crowd controlling abilities and fewer universe shattering ones. And actually, a Crusader with a DFA standing right behind him can basically bring combat movement to a crawling halt. Can't move? Oh well, just stand there and take damage...AND LIKE IT!

As far as races...Human takes the forefront due to the bonus feat, with Strongheart Halflings right behind. Then come Dwarves, Grey Elves, and Gnomes in a tie, depending one desired class/role. Then everything else, IMO.

Nohwl
2008-12-15, 05:11 PM
my favorite class is archivist. im playing one now.

Captain Six
2008-12-15, 06:11 PM
Funny enough when I think about it the classes I like the least are Wizards, Druids and Clerics. They feel like nobodies with powerful friends, I wouldn't want to play anyone who isn't the source of their own power. Because of the obscurity of arcane magic some settings Wizards are exempt from this.

dragonhand
2008-12-15, 07:55 PM
And yes, I think the Duskblade is the best out of that lot.


i mean that class combo in general, not from that list. I bet there is a class that i don't know about that has that combonation. and just for an example, paladin or cleric isn't on the list, but they count (paladins are magical melees with a sense of honor and clerics are magical melees with a strong sense of religion)

monty
2008-12-15, 07:57 PM
Best is wizard, of course.

My favorite would have to be swordsage, though. I always liked monks, and now I can play one that doesn't suck! Factotum is a close second.

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 08:14 PM
How good's a dragon shaman out of curiosity?
The breath weapon looks good and being able to help your teammates at the drop of a hat could be useful.

and now: comparisons (if you want to do it)

better: hexblade, duskblade, psionic warrior, any other fighter/some sort of magic user in one.


personally i say the duskblade.

Out of this bunch, Psychic Warrior edges out being the most versatile and efficient. Duskblade is a decent second, but he simply has no comparison to the Linked Power Hustle + Expansion followed by the Wolf + Hustle (or alternatively, linked Hustle + Expansion, using Hustle to regain Psionic Focus), etc. Also, Psychic Warrior has way more combat feats. And Duskblade lacks what makes casters special. Basically, Duskblade is a Barbarian who hits with spells instead of Rage. Not a bad class, but one with very low versatility for a caster, and low staying power (superb on level 1-6 though). But properly built, Psychic Warrior wins.

That said, you wanted all caster/warrior combos. Then Druid wins. Thanks to Wildshape, he's the worth of two melee fighters in the frontline (especially with his spells to buff him; Druid doesn't have crippled spellcasting like Psy War or Duskblade) and a full spellcaster. Cleric is a close second, again having level 9 spellcasting (really, it's amazing what you can do by just having access to high level spells fast; 9th level casting also means you get the lower levels earlier than competition) and Divine Power + Divine Favor + Turn Undead to fuel Divine Metamagic. And Domains to add to the power (and heck, Knowledge Devotion on top of it all). There's a reason for the term "CoDzilla" (Cleric or Druidzilla) - a Cleric or a Druid built for melee doing better than a Fighter there.

I'd say that Wildshape Mystic Ranger, if allowed, is the next (there's little conflict between the two classes, as Mystic Ranger modifies some abilities Wildshape Ranger gives up, but that should be fixed by simply gaining Wildshape one level late (since Mystic Ranger makes you get all the abilities one level slower)). If not, simple Wildshape Ranger. This is because the Wildshape-ability is ridiculously strong, but since entering Master of Many Forms is basically mandatory (although a dip is enough), non-Mystic Wildshape Ranger kinda loses out on the spellcasting so can't really be considered a Gish. After that, Psychic Warrior, and perhaps Ardent (although they have less feats and need to use feats to pick up most Gish-powers).

Then I'd say Duskblade is next, followed by Mystic Ranger (they're pretty even). After that, if I'm not forgetting something, you get the true half-casters like normal Ranger and Paladin and company that are Multi-Attribute Dependant, get casting late, have rather poor spell-lists and so on. Hexblade is just bleh, as printed, I'd place it under Paladin and Ranger (there're great fixes for it though). Also, I'm skipping on stuff like Bard, Factotum, Binder and many other pseudo-casters/combatants since while they can be built to be awesome in melee, they don't feel enough melee/caster to really warrant inclusion on this list.

Bard may be good enough, and I'd place it up at about Psychic Warrior when using optimized Inspire Courage along with Snowflake War Dance and company. Really optimized one would be right under Cleric and Druid.


So, Tiers:

1: Druid, Cleric
1.5: Bard?
2: Wildshape Mystic Ranger, Psychic Warrior, Ardent?
3: Duskblade, Mystic Ranger
4: Ranger, Paladin, similar half-casters
5: Hexblade

If you wanna know why I think so, read the walls above. If I wasn't clear on anything or you'd want me to be more specific on any classes, just ask.

Draz74
2008-12-15, 08:27 PM
I'm gonna break the flow here and claim that Wizard isn't the most powerful base class in the game. I'd say it's a close second behind Artificer.

That said ... my favorite class is a much harder question. Right now I'm pretty fascinated with the Factotum, but I also love several others. Ranger, Psychic Warrior, Psion, to name just a few that come to mind at the moment.

ericgrau
2008-12-15, 08:37 PM
Hmm. If my post isn't here where did I post it? Uh oh.

I'm just gonna mention that my favorite class to play thus far has been the sorceror. I like the greater on-the-fly versatility and ease of use. When I started I wanted to play rogues, but that didn't turn out so hot. I blame equal parts rules complications and my own misunderstandings about the class. I think if I went ranger it would have solved half the problem, but not all.

dragonhand
2008-12-15, 09:13 PM
is there a class that's even?
looking back i think ishould've phrased it better.

Gorbash
2008-12-15, 09:14 PM
at any rate, as i said earlier, which fighter/magic user in one class (ie. hexblades, psionic warrior) is the best.

Well not really, since as you can see, magic is hunderd of times better than melee.

Heh, it's always amusing to watch a non-optimizer realize the truth. I can't believe that only 2 years ago I actually avoided spellcasters because I didn't like spells... My god, what a mistake.

Dragonhand, just read the already linked LogicNinja's Guide and make a wizard in some future game and you'll see why 98% of the people in this topic said that Wizard is the best class. Because it is.

And another world-shattering remark: Fighter is one of the worst classes.


I'm gonna break the flow here and claim that Wizard isn't the most powerful base class in the game. I'd say it's a close second behind Artificer.

Only if you succeed in somehow breaking WBL system and obtain about twice as much gold on each level than you should have... But just to be on the safe side, make that 6 times more.

WaterTengu
2008-12-15, 09:16 PM
can i steal that picture in your signature Gorbash?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-15, 09:21 PM
Only if you succeed in somehow breaking WBL system and obtain about twice as much gold on each level than you should have... But just to be on the safe side, make that 6 times more.

I agree. I generally play in below-WBL settings, so Artificer, although powerful, is not "teh uber".

Nohwl
2008-12-15, 09:30 PM
why is a wizard stronger than an archivist?

monty
2008-12-15, 09:49 PM
why is a wizard stronger than an archivist?

Arcane spells are in general better than divine; also, a couple of the more broken prestige classes are arcane-only.

dragonhand
2008-12-15, 09:49 PM
the second char i ever played was a sorcerer. got to lvl 5 and the dm moved to the west coast. i was hoping for a fireball. that would be about 4-5 yrs ago.

EDIT:so i've had some arcane experience, at some point i got back to back with the dm's char during a fight, i had a daydream then.

Nohwl
2008-12-15, 10:11 PM
Arcane spells are in general better than divine; also, a couple of the more broken prestige classes are arcane-only.

i can understand more of the broken prestige classes being arcane, but i thought archivists got a better (and bigger) spell list.

Draken
2008-12-15, 11:55 PM
i can understand more of the broken prestige classes being arcane, but i thought archivists got a better (and bigger) spell list.

The arcane spell list has more mean tricks. The divine spell list has some of these, and a few others with the proper domains, but in the end, it is just stealing it's mean tricks from the arcane list.

Of course. You can always go with ye olde Ur-priest / MT to just get everything anyway.

--------

On my favorite base classes. I will have to go with the Totemist and the Incarnate. Binder and druid next. Wizards are cool but making the spell list is a pain. Best part of druid is probably that it is easy to play even if you don't optimize it much.

Of the fighter/caster base classes. I would say the best one is, without shadow of doubt, the Duskblade. Because the psychic warrior is not a caster, he is a manifester, and for this, there is no shadow of doubt. Ranger, Hexblade, Paladin, they all fail to amuse.

Gorbash
2008-12-16, 06:48 AM
can i steal that picture in your signature Gorbash?

Be my guest.


the second char i ever played was a sorcerer. got to lvl 5 and the dm moved to the west coast. i was hoping for a fireball. that would be about 4-5 yrs ago.

Fireball is actually one of the worst arcane spells...

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-16, 07:38 AM
Fireball is actually one of the worst arcane spells...

*Headdesk* maybe he liked simply to make things explode. And evocation school may not be the best for a wizard (you know, optimization It's mandatory, we are not playing a game :smallamused:) but a sorcerer is pure fun with some evocation school.

The Minx
2008-12-16, 07:59 AM
Best Class: Wizard (as several dozen people have said already). Selecting spells is a pain, but all you really need is Celerity with Time Stop and Gate, and you're off to your special plane to prepare whatever spells the occasion warrants. If your DM tolerates power players, that is.

The Wizard is followed by the Erudite, the Druid and the Cleric. The Erudite is almost up there with the Wizard, his only real drawback compared with the Wizard is that there is less Psion stuff than Wizard stuff in the rulebooks. Other than that, he can munchkin his way around just about anything (including his supposed limitations) and does not need to select his powers in advance like the wizard does.

Favorite class: so many, though I probably would go with the above four, and not simply for the power fix. :smallwink:

Jarrick
2008-12-16, 12:16 PM
Wizard, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer.

Beguiler because my party made me stop playing it because we were avoiding too many fights (changeling, and not a diplomancer).

Dread Necromancer because they don't have to do much more than stand back and give commands to their unholy minions while readying spells to deal with anyone who manages to get close enough, and then healing them up afterward for free. That is what I call combining melee with magic. Oh, and casters with DR is always a plus.

Egiam
2008-12-16, 12:23 PM
-Rogue. Sneak attack. 'nuff said
-Cleric Nobody else wants to play them.

dragonhand
2008-12-16, 03:02 PM
Fireball is actually one of the worst arcane spells...

hey, i was younger then (8, 7, 9, somewhere around there) to me it was the spell of awesome. now it's probably finger of death, didn't play a caster in a while.

dragonhand
2008-12-16, 03:47 PM
also most of the enemies were undead save for the person we were chasing.

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 04:00 PM
I once started playing a Cleric Lv1 and secretly took all my subsequent levels in Aristocrat.

"I can't heal during the fight, I don't want to get up there next to the monsters."

"I'm just using Cure Light after the fights, if you need more healing I can do other spells."

"Yeah I'm out of healing. No, no some of those were Cure Moderate."

"Okay I thought we were gonna fight some Undead today so I didn't take all healing spells. We should just camp."

"What do you mean I'm 9th level and I should be able to Raise Dead? I took a PrC and Necromancy is a prohibited school."

"Yeah, see, I can't exactly do Plant spells either."

Because I had bought Cure Light sticks that could cast the spell 5 times a day each, I was able to disguise my NPC class levels from the other players until level 11 as I recall.

And I had told them I was going to be a dedicated healer. Nobody else played a Cleric.

They were upset when they saw my character sheet and the DM finally busted out laughing.

So they killed the Aristcrat/Cleric and I rolled up a Druid optimized for maximum animal companion powers.

I chose a tit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titmouse).

dragonhand
2008-12-16, 09:43 PM
which sneaky class is the best out of all of them?

i'd say scout or rogue.

monty
2008-12-16, 09:46 PM
which sneaky class is the best out of all of them?

i'd say scout or rogue.

Factotum..

Gorbash
2008-12-16, 09:48 PM
Answer is always the same - Wizard.

dragonhand
2008-12-16, 09:55 PM
Answer is always the same - Wizard.

i didn't know wizards were made for sneakyness.
i don't know much about factotum other than it's a prestige class.

monty
2008-12-16, 09:58 PM
i don't know much about factotum other than it's a prestige class.

It's not. It's a base class from Dungeonscape.

It's kind of like a rogue, with a few really good abilities. It only gets 6+Int skill points, but all skills in-class, and their almost total SAD on Int makes up for the skill points anyway. The main reason they're better at sneaking, though, is their third-level ability, Brains over Brawn. It lets them add Int to all Str- and Dex-based skills in addition to the regular stats.

Gorbash
2008-12-16, 10:00 PM
Invisibility, Silence, for example. Or why bother with going anywhere, when you can just Scry?

Factotum is a core class.

dragonhand
2008-12-16, 10:15 PM
okay, factotum is a core class.
to be sneaky a wizard needs spells, i want to know those that don't need spells, because wizards cheat sneaking (in a way)

Thorin
2008-12-16, 10:15 PM
Warlock

I know that wizard rules, but I simply loooooove the warlock

dragonhand
2008-12-16, 10:20 PM
i will not get in the way of that love (if i can help it :smallyuk:) but does warlock have any non-offensive spells? also how much armor is he allowed? (never mind i'll look it up)

monty
2008-12-16, 10:23 PM
i will not get in the way of that love (if i can help it :smallyuk:) but does warlock have any non-offensive spells? also how much armor is he allowed? (never mind i'll look it up)

Flight. At will. Dimension Door. At will. Invisibility. At will.

It's not overpowered, but it's hardly weak. Also, light armor.

Eldariel
2008-12-16, 10:25 PM
Warlock doesn't have spells. That said, his powers are very much non-offensive with Invisibility & Fly At Will, along with True Seeing At Will, later on stuff like Foresight, some Crafting-abilities, etc. Then there's the Eldritch Blast (ranged touch attack to deal basically Sneak Attack-damage with a bit slower progression) with its Blast Shape invocations (longer range, bouncing, melee, area explosion, etc.) and Eldritch Essence invocations (varies the blast's composition - generally save-related effects vs. fear, strength loss or such, or Pierce Spell Resistance and the like). And few offensive invocations that act like spells (most notably, Shatter and Summon Swarm at will on low levels - generally, the higher you go, the more you rely on Eldritch Blast for your offense).

dragonhand
2008-12-16, 10:27 PM
just looked it up, so yes i was wrong, i'm sorry, and warlock appears to be more sneaky than a wizard (spell slot wise)

dragonhand
2008-12-16, 10:28 PM
so a warlock isn't a spellcaster per say. The class sounds solitary.......and fun.

Draken
2008-12-16, 11:21 PM
I once started playing a Cleric Lv1 and secretly took all my subsequent levels in Aristocrat.

"I can't heal during the fight, I don't want to get up there next to the monsters."

"I'm just using Cure Light after the fights, if you need more healing I can do other spells."

"Yeah I'm out of healing. No, no some of those were Cure Moderate."

"Okay I thought we were gonna fight some Undead today so I didn't take all healing spells. We should just camp."

"What do you mean I'm 9th level and I should be able to Raise Dead? I took a PrC and Necromancy is a prohibited school."

"Yeah, see, I can't exactly do Plant spells either."

Because I had bought Cure Light sticks that could cast the spell 5 times a day each, I was able to disguise my NPC class levels from the other players until level 11 as I recall.

And I had told them I was going to be a dedicated healer. Nobody else played a Cleric.

They were upset when they saw my character sheet and the DM finally busted out laughing.

So they killed the Aristcrat/Cleric and I rolled up a Druid optimized for maximum animal companion powers.

I chose a tit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titmouse).

Pure, full, win.

Didn't your fellas get in trouble with the authorities for killing a member of the aristocracy?

Curmudgeon
2008-12-16, 11:32 PM
Best: Wizard, as everyone else has told you.

Favorite: Rogue. Build them right and they've always got something to do, inside or outside combat, so you don't become part of the scenery in a ranged battle with a melee build, or in a melee battle with an archer. Some people get off on being unbeatable in one particular circumstance, and don't get bored the other 90% of the time. I'd rather play.

Gardakan
2008-12-17, 07:51 AM
The best class : Wizard (Why asking that question...)

My favorite class : Wizard. I play wizard with a different thing in each game. One is cynic, another is senil...

dragonhand
2008-12-17, 03:42 PM
The best class : Wizard (Why asking that question...)


some people have different opinions.

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 05:34 PM
Pure, full, win.

Didn't your fellas get in trouble with the authorities for killing a member of the aristocracy?

Nah. They killed the authorities too.

dragonhand
2008-12-17, 06:23 PM
idn't they then become outlaws Tacoma?

Stephen_E
2008-12-17, 06:37 PM
The "best" class is the class that you have the most fun with.

Wizards are the most "powerful" class, they're not necessairly the best. In fact outside of powergamers optimisers many people find them to fiddly and brain straining.

For me the best classes are
Fighter - lots of fun, not to much work, endless variations, minimal outside prep. A dip into Barb for Rage adds to the fun.
Druid - Love animal companions. Would prefer Ragers if they didn't nerf the animal companion. As it is I simply ignore or minimise much of the Druids abilitys to focus on working with the animal companions.

Scout looks like fun but I haven't had the opportunity to try it out yet.

Hexblade also looks a possibility if you're playing with the Dark Companion.

Stephen E

Stephen_E
2008-12-17, 06:50 PM
Tacoma,

Your Aristocrat sounds classic, but the Tit maximised animal companion almost matches it.

You do realise you have to become a Paladin (fall as a Druid) gain a special mount, the Tit, Atones regaining your Druid abilities (per RAW it isn't actually neceessary to return back to a neutral alignment to regain druid abilities. You only lose Druid abilities for changing to a non-druidic alignment, not for having a non-druidic alignment) and then use the Devoted Tracker to make your Tit be both Animal Companion and Special Mount, and take leadership making your Special Mount your Cohort and give it class levels as well.

Ta Da - Super Tit :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Stephen E

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 07:47 PM
Tacoma,

Your Aristocrat sounds classic, but the Tit maximised animal companion almost matches it.

You do realise you have to become a Paladin (fall as a Druid) gain a special mount, the Tit, Atones regaining your Druid abilities (per RAW it isn't actually neceessary to return back to a neutral alignment to regain druid abilities. You only lose Druid abilities for changing to a non-druidic alignment, not for having a non-druidic alignment) and then use the Devoted Tracker to make your Tit be both Animal Companion and Special Mount, and take leadership making your Special Mount your Cohort and give it class levels as well.

Ta Da - Super Tit :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Stephen E


Ingenious. I would of course require a second animal companion of the exact same nature.



idn't they then become outlaws Tacoma?

No, they sat in the big comfy chair with all the buttons and made up new laws that said they were okay, but new people who kill the authorities would be outlaws.

But then they realized oppressing a town is no fun, looted the place, and left.

dragonhand
2008-12-17, 08:01 PM
But then they realized oppressing a town is no fun, looted the place, and left.

lol :smallamused:

dragonhand
2008-12-18, 05:06 PM
Which melee class is the best? I will stay out of this one unless i have to.

Eldariel
2008-12-18, 05:08 PM
Druid, of course.

dragonhand
2008-12-18, 05:22 PM
i would like to have it not be spell buffed and wildshape is an ability so they count.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-18, 08:01 PM
i would like to have it not be spell buffed and wildshape is an ability so they count.Most powerful melee with no spell/magic, I assume you mean(please, try to use proper grammar and the occasional punctuation)? Warblade is great for damage-dealing, Scout/Ranger is one of the few effective archers, Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker makes for an excellent charger, and Crusader can do battlefield control on the level of the Wizard. Of course, a Druidic Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) is excellent in melee even without Wildshape/spells, thanks to his pet Fighter. None of the other classes can be in 2 places at once.

What criteria do you want us to use?

woodenbandman
2008-12-18, 08:41 PM
Favorite Class:ToB and Warlock(houseruled to have more invocations).

Best Class:Druid. Yes, a Wizard can be more powerful, but a Druid can break the game with no skill needed whatsoever. N00b Wizards will throw Fireballs because it's fun, n00b Druids will turn into Bears, have a pet cat, and be more effective than the Fighter.

Best race:Humans overall, Dwarfs are a close second. Lesser Assimar are good for Clerics, Elf subraces for Wizards, and Jermaline and Anthromorphic Bats are good for Druids.

I can fully attest to this, I was a druid for a while and I literally defeated people two levels higher than me in one round and had AC of 43 at level 11. It was just utterly freakin' ridiculous, and I only had one feat (natural spell) that I actually used, and one spell (bite of the weretiger) that I actually used, and two magic items (monk belt and wild fullplate) that I used, but I was the baddest mofo in the room. With like no investment at all.

Srsly, tell your noob players to be druids.

EDIT: By far the greatest meleeist in the game is the Totemist. For doing nothing with fancy shenanigans, and just using their base class features, totemist 20 can grapple the tarrasque, shoot 14 arrows as a single standard action each dealing 1d6 + strength damage, charge and pounce for 6 claws, bite, 2 tentacles (feat gained), and probably more, each one of them potentially starting a grapple. Oh, and various enhancement bonuses and morale bonuses on top of those. Did I mention grapple the tarrasque? (when it matters, most of the time they can only grapple weak things like elder earth elementals and mature black dragons).

And at low levels, oh my GOD the power! They can dominate the hell out of anything at level 2 with their 4 +2 claws, and have huge AC on top of that.

Malacode
2008-12-18, 09:14 PM
Warlock. Easy. Here's the reason: Just take all the Invocations that give +6s to X, Y and Z skills, then the non-combat ones (Baleful Utterance, Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, etc) and you've got every minor role the party could ever need covered. Leave bashing things over the head with a pointy metal stick to the fighter, and lighting everything within 20ft on fire to the Wizard. It's what they do. YOU, however do the little useful things that no-one else wants to take care of. Add a few levels of Cleric/Eldritch Disciple, you're now the parties Healer and Battlefield Controller as well. That and there's no paperwork. *jeers at the Vancian magic system*

As for best? Core = Druid. Yeahyeah, I know everyone says that, but still. Totemist and Barbarian (In a good build, Barbarian can rock HARD) are also pretty awesome

monty
2008-12-18, 11:12 PM
As for best? Core = Druid. Yeahyeah, I know everyone says that, but still.

Except for all the people saying wizard, of course. Druid is a close second, though.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-18, 11:42 PM
I once started playing a Cleric Lv1 and secretly took all my subsequent levels in Aristocrat.

"I can't heal during the fight, I don't want to get up there next to the monsters."

"I'm just using Cure Light after the fights, if you need more healing I can do other spells."

"Yeah I'm out of healing. No, no some of those were Cure Moderate."

"Okay I thought we were gonna fight some Undead today so I didn't take all healing spells. We should just camp."

"What do you mean I'm 9th level and I should be able to Raise Dead? I took a PrC and Necromancy is a prohibited school."

"Yeah, see, I can't exactly do Plant spells either."

Because I had bought Cure Light sticks that could cast the spell 5 times a day each, I was able to disguise my NPC class levels from the other players until level 11 as I recall.

And I had told them I was going to be a dedicated healer. Nobody else played a Cleric.

They were upset when they saw my character sheet and the DM finally busted out laughing.

So they killed the Aristcrat/Cleric and I rolled up a Druid optimized for maximum animal companion powers.

I chose a tit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titmouse).

A thing of pure beauty. I must do this some time.

dragonhand
2008-12-19, 10:24 AM
I meant o edit that last post of ine but my computer was acting slow so i didn't get to it.
no spells but you are allowed to use abilities.

dragonhand
2008-12-19, 10:26 AM
Most powerful melee with no spell/magic, I assume you mean(please, try to use proper grammar and the occasional punctuation)? Warblade is great for damage-dealing, Scout/Ranger is one of the few effective archers, Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker makes for an excellent charger, and Crusader can do battlefield control on the level of the Wizard. Of course, a Druidic Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) is excellent in melee even without Wildshape/spells, thanks to his pet Fighter. None of the other classes can be in 2 places at once.

What criteria do you want us to use?

I mean no Bear's Strength or any other buff spells and what does criteria mean (my mind is blanking at the moment and OMG A MINDFLAYER! excuse me for a moment.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-19, 10:33 AM
I mean no Bear's Strength or any other buff spells and what does criteria mean (my mind is blanking at the moment and OMG A MINDFLAYER! excuse me for a moment.)How are you judging best? As I said, melee builds have to choose what they'll do when leveling, and some builds are exceptional at one thing and terrible at all others. What do you want your melee to do?

Stephen_E
2008-12-19, 11:14 AM
Are you allowed ogres. There are some quite nice ogre build I know. They make good meatshields as they do what they do very well, leaving the other PCs to fill in their serious weaknesses.

Also any particular pt build or array in mind.

Stephen E

Darth Stabber
2008-12-19, 11:25 AM
Best: covered

Favorites: Dragon shaman, fighter, psion.

Though my favorite character thus far was Hrathgam, the undecided
ranger1/barbarian1/psychic warrior1/paladin of freedom1/warblade1/fighter1/duskblade1/soulborn1/horizon walker1/dread commando1/soulknife1/Cleric1/totemist1/bear warrior1/binder1 ect.
Basically he didn't know what he wanted to do with his life other than fight. His starting stats were something to the effect of
str-14
dex-12
con-14
int- 13
wis-12
cha-12

Had to do a lot of preplanning with skill points and feats, Luckily my dm's rule was once a class skill, always a class skill. and he let me count up fractional bab and saves other wise i would endup with subpar bab and weirdly high fort save. absolute blast to play, no matter what happened I had a sub par combat option.

dragonhand
2008-12-19, 11:50 AM
How are you judging best? As I said, melee builds have to choose what they'll do when leveling, and some builds are exceptional at one thing and terrible at all others. What do you want your melee to do?

basic up front battling, nothing long range and if there are seperate combos mention them.

any race is fine Stephen even a mindflayer that has a fighter class (gods their brains are messy)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-19, 11:53 AM
basic up front battling, nothing long range and if there are seperate combos mention them.

any race is fine Stephen even a mindflayer that has a fighter class (gods their brains are messy)The problem is that, while 'battling" seems simple, it isn't. A charger can deal 20k damage if he has room to charge, but without that, he's useless. A Crusader can absorb damage like no other, but takes longer to actually kill anything.

mikej
2008-12-19, 12:09 PM
Best Class: Wizard, been argued and done to death but it offers soo many options over others clasess.

Fav Class: Druid, just soo much fun. A little bookkeeping is needed but still to do soo much with one class and without PrC ( of course I do try to sneak in Planar Shepherd ) is entertaining.

dragonhand
2008-12-19, 12:11 PM
....which class do you think is best suited for basically being a meatshieldfor your caster/doing heavy damage/any other reasons to be up front and personal.

Eldariel
2008-12-19, 12:20 PM
....which class do you think is best suited for basically being a meatshieldfor your caster/doing heavy damage/any other reasons to be up front and personal.

The answer to each of those is different. Which are you asking for? Also, the answer rather comes down to a build than a class.

dragonhand
2008-12-19, 12:23 PM
i'm not expecting to get one build that fits everything, then that one would be rivaling the wizard for the best. just put down different builds for the different jobs.

ChaosDefender24
2008-12-19, 12:36 PM
Best: Torn between Planar Shepherd and Dweomerkeeper. Shepherds get a 10-rounds-to-1 time bubble (infinity to 1 if you aren't in Eberron), and for all the other wizard tricks (I think) you can be your own Pazuzu/candle

The Dweomerkeeper can Supernatural Spell up an Ice Assassin of Pelor and give "God" a new meaning for spellcasters

My favorite: Soul Eater. I can't believe this one never came up. You get to suck their soul out, you occasionally can shapechange into the stuff you kill, and you get a giant laser. Delightfully cheesy/hilarious if you crank up the natural attacks, until the DM starts tossing undead and deathwards your way

Eldariel
2008-12-19, 12:47 PM
....which class do you think is best suited for basically being a meatshieldfor your caster/doing heavy damage/any other reasons to be up front and personal.

Uhh, ok.

Tank: Tripper/Stand Still Fighter, Knight, Barbarian, Warblade, Crusader or really, any other full BAB maneuver/feat+ability class.

Damage: ‹bercharger Barbarian, Warblade, Crusader, or Dungeoncrasher Fighter (I don't really remember how all the multipliers stacked up; I recall there is some means of making a Pouncing Mounted Charge triggering Bull Rush on every attack and additional attacks off the Bull Rush or something). Frenzied Berserker has the best PA multipliers, obviously.


The problem with martial classes is that:
1) Most martial classes can do the same things through a bit different means.
2) Most martial classes are better multiclassed between each other than singleclassed with PrC.
3) The definition of "martial class" is loose and thus there're way more classes to consider than optimal.

dragonhand
2008-12-19, 02:49 PM
Are you a DM Eldariel?

BardicDuelist
2008-12-19, 03:01 PM
My favorite classes: Factotum and Bard. I like the jack-of-all-trades skillmonkey thing. Beguilers and rogues come close.

Favorite melee: Probably the Warblade.

Favorite divine caster: Druid.

Best class from level 1-20 (average): Druid. He is effective at every level, yes he is outshined by clerics once they get DMM and wizards when they get 8th/9th level spells, but before that, the druid is usually more effective.

Best class at level 20: Wizard/Archivist/Artificer. While a wizard is effective at all levels, it is outshined by the druid for a large part of gameplay, unless you hide yourself away. The other two can be better, but are magic item based and thus subject to DM control a bit more.

Most versatile classes: Factotum, Wizard, Archivist, Artificer. Ironically the bard isn't on this list, as your effective bards are often Sublime Chords or Diplomancers. Factotums can literally do anything, especially if they go Chameleon. Wizards can do everything. Archivist is a wizard with more versatility, but unless you have a specific party make-up, can be subject to DM control (by controlling the scrolls he has access to) more often than the others. Artificers are arguably more powerful than the others, but are also very item based and campaign specific. They may be better, but not necessarily.

kalt
2008-12-19, 03:03 PM
hmm in terms of enjoyment I have tended to really favor anything out of ToB for a melee character since you atleast get some more variety than a classic hack and slash. I will also agree with druid as pretty much the best core class even as a melee person. Once you get natural spell+your animal companion+augment summoning there isn't much that you can't deal with on your own and god forbid if the dm lets you use the fun dinosaur creatures. As a generic melee fighter I'd say well a fighter and if you want things to just soak it up i've seen a fighter/deepwarden/dwarven defender just last and last.

BardicDuelist
2008-12-19, 03:09 PM
OPer, for a overall well balanced melee character, I usually go warblade. They are out tanked by Crusaders and outdamaged by Uberchargers, but they are solid and can compete with casters throughout most of the game.

Innis Cabal
2008-12-19, 03:12 PM
Best class? Fighter. Don't let anyone fool you.

Fav class? Sorcerer

Darth Stabber
2008-12-19, 03:38 PM
Yeah it seems to me that TOB resulted in this


Wotc: Fighter how's it going

Fighter: Good?

Wotc: the reason I called you down here is we've decided to put you on vacation until we do 4e.

Fighter: What? I've been part of D&D since 1st edition.

Wotc: Well fighter, market research indicates that people would much rather have options in combat, other than should I charge and How much power attack should i use. You get eclipsed by everyone but monk by lvl 4 and before that Barbarian has you beat, and continues to have more options to stay competitive after that.

Fighter: but come on, I get more feats than anybody.

Wotc: Yes but no one who puts any thought into building their character takes more than a 2 lvl dip into you. Besides We still need you in 4e, you just are going to sit out for a while.

Fighter: this is so unfair.

Wotc: things are rough all over, we'll call you when we need you back. Oh by the way con you do something before leave.

Fighter: sure, what?

Wotc: Send in monk, Your going to have a vacation buddy.

Eldariel
2008-12-19, 08:04 PM
Are you a DM Eldariel?

I don't understand the question. I DM some games, albeit at the moment the only game I'm DMing is on hold until christmas. On the other hand, I play more than I DM.

dragonhand
2008-12-19, 09:04 PM
you were acting like a dm in a way that's all.

dark-sage 95
2008-12-20, 11:31 AM
In this thread is it necissary that the class be core??

If not I've had quite a bit of fun with upgrading a scout to be a melee fighter because our party was mostly stealth based classes.

dragonhand
2008-12-20, 11:58 AM
No it doesn't have to be core.

Coplantor
2008-12-20, 12:03 PM
my favourite classes are the swshbuckler and the factotum I really love those.
And best class? probably druid.

dragonhand
2008-12-20, 03:58 PM
which prestige class is the best? please put which book they're from.

Coplantor
2008-12-20, 04:12 PM
Mmmm, Priesto of Ur (book of vile darkness) can be very powerfull if combined with mystic theurge. Hulking hurler (complete warrior) deals an awful lot of damage he way throwing damage is calculated for him. Master of many forms (complete adventurer) expands the druid wildshape gratley.

I like bladesinger (complete warrior) for swashbuckling gish builds and the chameleon (races of destiny) for the factotum, havent played it yet, but as soon as I hit 9th level it will be awesome

dark-sage 95
2008-12-20, 04:57 PM
Warmage is really powerfull at low levels as it gets a lot of stron ofensive spells at low level + a decent hit die.

As for prestige probably a high level Dagger Spell Mage. its a b***h to get all the prerequisites but It can be really handy if your a power-gamer
(complete adventurer.)

Sneak attack
+ power attack (maxed)
+ True strike
+ Maximized 5D6 shocking grasp stored in each dagger
= tons of damage!

usualy drops a good enemy unit in 1 round.:smallwink:

monty
2008-12-20, 05:36 PM
Best prestige class? A toss-up between Planar Shepherd and Incantatrix, I'd say.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-20, 05:52 PM
Best prestige class? A toss-up between Planar Shepherd and Incantatrix, I'd say.

What he said, but with an honorable mention going to Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

Spiryt
2008-12-20, 06:04 PM
Sneak attack
+ power attack (maxed)
+ True strike
+ Maximized 5D6 shocking grasp stored in each dagger
= tons of damage!

usualy drops a good enemy unit in 1 round.:smallwink:

Power attack with dagger? Is that one of PrC's abilities? :smallconfused:

Battleship789
2008-12-20, 07:26 PM
Best Class: Wizards, though I think a properly built counterspelling sorcerer can beat an equal level wizard. (Haven't tested this but I'm working on it.)

Favorite Class: Sorcerers. I love roleplaying the "I have magic as a part of my mere existence," especially when confronted with wizards. For game mechanics, I hate having to prepare my spells for a wizard and being a sorcerer doesn't require much bookwork, allowing for more playing of the game, and I like the higher amount of spells per day over a wizard (my DM is a beast when it comes to encounters, both the number per day and their difficulty, so I like having a little relaxing room.)

That being said, I think my favorite character I've had was a rogue/assasin who was going for the Greyhand legendary PrC, from a third party sourcebook, Path of Shadow by Fantasy Flight Games (had a couple of houseruled changes which made it into an assasin upgrade instead of a low grade assasin-type PrC.) It is a lot of fun to full attack the BBEG sorcerer/bloodmage with two daggers (for 6 attacks), 9d6 sneak attack, a good str-based poison, and death attack after using a quickened dimension door (from a metamagic rod) to get on his mount, while being under the effect of improved invisiblity. 1 round of total carnage. Even better, the BBEG was a recurring villian that had TKed my last character into a geyser of lava. Payback. That characer had a lot of great moments...*heads into nostalgia*

UserClone
2008-12-20, 07:34 PM
I have recently become enamored of the Sand Shaper PrC from Sandstorm. Holy cow, is that packed with pseudo-mummy goodness! I approve.

Also, I am a big fan of Gishes. I don't care how well they work, it's the concept of blending sword and spell. For some reason, Duskblade doesn't do it for me, either. It has to be Sor/Wiz casting, like Abjurant Champion (CM) or Knight Phantom (Five Nations).

dark-sage 95
2008-12-20, 08:09 PM
@ spiryt Can't remember been a while since I played the Dagger spell mage but I do remember sevral handy power attack feats from CaR that you could use with a dagger.

Coplantor
2008-12-20, 08:12 PM
CaR? wich book is that?

dark-sage 95
2008-12-20, 08:14 PM
Complete adventurer. great book for prestige classes
been forever since i've had a character that could meet the prerequisites to use one though.

Xallace
2008-12-20, 08:19 PM
Favorite Base classes? Paladin and Dread Necromancer. Go figure, right? Also a big fan of Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum, but I haven't gotten to play those yet. Factotum is also huge fun.

PrC wise, Hellreaver (from Fiendish Codex II) definitely in my top 3.
Dread Witch is another of my tops. Love that class no matter what.
There are a lot competing for the top three, and I can't really nail one down. Spell Sovereign, Bear Warrior, Stormcaster, Master Transmogrofist (the concept for it, anyway)... list goes on.

Coplantor
2008-12-20, 08:24 PM
Isnt dread necromancer a PrC? Anyway, what's on the incarnum book? Should I check or I'm not missing that much?

Xallace
2008-12-20, 08:28 PM
Nope, Dread Necro is a base class from Heroes of Horror. Maybe not the most powerful or must useful (especially against undead at low levels, weirdly enough. Rebuking can only do so much), but definitely one of the most fun to roleplay for me.

Incarnum is pretty awesome once you figure out how it works. That's kinda that catch, though: it's not the easiest system to wrap your head around the first read through. The main idea behind it is versatility; you can basically have a different character everday with barely changing a thing. Heck, you can have a different character from round to round if you want. Not quite "Wizard one round, Fighter the next," but still.

My suggestion would be to pick it up and take a look, give it a shot. I found a copy for $6. So if you love it, awesome deal, and if you don't, not much lost.

dragonhand
2008-12-20, 08:31 PM
Is there PrC that acts like the wizard without the arcane spell failure?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-20, 08:36 PM
Is there PrC that acts like the wizard without the arcane spell failure?

If your DM lets you get away with enough, Archivists are.

Coplantor
2008-12-20, 08:42 PM
Nope, Dread Necro is a base class from Heroes of Horror. Maybe not the most powerful or must useful (especially against undead at low levels, weirdly enough. Rebuking can only do so much), but definitely one of the most fun to roleplay for me.

Incarnum is pretty awesome once you figure out how it works. That's kinda that catch, though: it's not the easiest system to wrap your head around the first read through. The main idea behind it is versatility; you can basically have a different character everday with barely changing a thing. Heck, you can have a different character from round to round if you want. Not quite "Wizard one round, Fighter the next," but still.

My suggestion would be to pick it up and take a look, give it a shot. I found a copy for $6. So if you love it, awesome deal, and if you don't, not much lost.

Cool, I'll check the book, if I could get around psionics in 2nd edition this shouldn be that complicated.

dragonhand
2008-12-21, 11:15 AM
If your DM lets you get away with enough, Archivists are.

do they actually have their own spells or do they purchase scrolls? i remember reading that they are controlled by the dm in a way.

UserClone
2008-12-21, 11:51 AM
Archivists' spells known are basically done by DM fiat, other than the two freebies he gets at level up which are ONLY from the cleric spell list (read: NOT domains). Other than that, he has to copy them from scrolls, and since it's completely up to the DM which scrolls you will find...


Anyway, if you are looking to wear armor and cast, there are several ways:
Armor, such as a few from Races of the Wild, with lower SF% chances than their ordinary counterparts. Also, Mithril lowers SF% by 10, as do Githcraft and Feycraft, IIRC.
"Gish" PrCs, such as as Knight Phantom, which both increase your ability to cast and gives you the ability to do so while wearing light armor. Take Battle Caster as a feat to mitigate this for Medium Armor as well, then wear Mithral Full Plate. WARNING: Just about all of these reduce your caster level, and spellcasting abilities, by one level...
...except Abjurant Champion, from Complete Mage, gives you increased AC-boosting ability with your Abjurations, helping to reduce your reliance on armor in the first place. Also increases your BAB while not reducing your casting at all.
From Book of Exalted Deeds, Twilight is an armor enhancement which gives you -10% to your SF chance, at the cost of a +1 enhancement.

Edit: Did I mention I like gishes?:smallwink:

dragonhand
2008-12-21, 12:56 PM
.
Also, I am a big fan of Gishes. I don't care how well they work, it's the concept of blending sword and spell. For some reason, Duskblade doesn't do it for me, either. It has to be Sor/Wiz casting, like Abjurant Champion (CM) or Knight Phantom (Five Nations).

yes, yes you did FlWiPig. duskblades get the ignore sf% up to medium and that's at lvl 4. but then again, duskblade isn't a PrC.

UserClone
2008-12-21, 01:07 PM
Right, and he was asking specifically about the Wizard.:smalltongue:

woodenbandman
2008-12-21, 01:08 PM
Best way to get near full wizard casting is to take Prestige Bard and then take that Armored Mage feat from Complete Mage or whatever it's from. take it once and pick up mithral fullplate, or twice to wear legitimate fullplate (though mithral chain shirt is really probably best, and a +1 Twilight mithral chain shirt has no arcane spell failure and is stiill good.)

So really there's no point in learning to wear armor because if you can get armor with <5% spell failure then it's probably good enough.

Inhuman Bot
2008-12-21, 11:45 PM
Best classes? Primary casters.

Favorite classes? Possibly the Insidious corrupter of Drow of the Underdark, or the Malconvoker. Other classes come close, but my best RP charcters had these classes, and I feel like they have lots of potential for roleplaying.

Especially in Iron kingdoms.

*see clerics of morrow* Conjurer away!

dragonhand
2008-12-23, 11:57 PM
What's the best Divine caster? PrC included but no homebrew.

Malacode
2008-12-24, 12:14 AM
Divine? Well, Cleric multiclassing into Eldritch Disciple (With levels of Warlock, of course). Whee! Stealth! Healing! Ridiculous Damage Output! You should see my current characters damage output per turn. Maximised Eldritch Glaives while under the influence of some of those self buffs you get are pretty damn cool, and that's not even touching the PROPER spell lists

monty
2008-12-24, 12:22 AM
What's the best Divine caster? PrC included but no homebrew.

Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10. Second best would be Druid 20.

Eldariel
2008-12-24, 04:18 AM
Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10. Second best would be Druid 20.

I nominate Cleric/Dweomerkeeper/Divine Disciple of Mystra (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248239) (otherwise known as the Cheater of Mystra).

noobofsonicboom
2008-12-24, 01:23 PM
Artificer

Awesome abilities/ Awesome spells

Truly broken

dragonhand
2008-12-25, 01:04 AM
MERRY CHRISTMAS
for those that don't celebrate christmas Happy Winter.

dragonhand
2008-12-27, 06:56 PM
Which class is the most versatile? everyone will probably say factotum.

monty
2008-12-27, 08:05 PM
Which class is the most versatile? everyone will probably say factotum.

Factotum Wizard?

arguskos
2008-12-27, 08:06 PM
Bard is pretty far up there in the versatility category. Face, skills, spells, songs, style, the bard can do it all! :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2008-12-27, 08:19 PM
I think Polymorph wins this category. So any spellcaster. If we ignore spells pwning everything:

Well, seeing that Factotum's actual flavour is being the jack-of-all-trades... But yea, Bard is a good second. Binder is right up there too, and Druid and Cloistered Cleric are both capable meleers, casters and skill monkeys. Totemist isn't too bad in this regard either, and Beguiler is definitely up there.

Eh, most of the good classes fall under the "can handle multiple roles"-shtick really. And anything with a big spell list. Or anything with Polymorph.

Xallace
2008-12-27, 08:26 PM
Incarnates are also versatile "like whoa."

FMArthur
2008-12-27, 09:38 PM
Wizards, Archivists, Clerics, and Artificers are all ridiculously versatile in that you can prepare for any situation from a gigantic list of spells; Factotum can be said to be versatile, and I agree a little because he can temporarily boost his existing abilities, but it's mostly just a skillmonkey with a few limited abilities in other areas.

I think actual versatility-focused classes actually fail at it (compared to the Big Five especially), because late into 3.5 Wizards actually understood why it was unbalanced to be able to replace everyone else's role in the party. The Chameleon is a fun attempt but it actually doesn't even approach versatility most of the time because it's stuck in a fixed, limited role until you take an hour to change it to a different one. They made quite a few 'mixed breed'-type classes that are really just one role leaning in the direction of another: Duskblade, Spellthief, Beguiler, Battle Sorcerer, Psychic Warrior, Factotum, and a variety of spellcasting PrCs that offered some BAB in addition to mega super-powerful casting.

dragonhand
2008-12-30, 01:32 AM
Happy New Years!!!:smallbiggrin:
(since i won't be around then:smallfrown:, highlight between 'Happy' and 'Years!!!')

Mr. Zook
2008-12-30, 01:36 AM
Wizzard/druid=win.
Discussion over.
Have a nice life.

Harperfan7
2008-12-30, 03:43 AM
A wizard is only the best class if they are prepared for the situation, which usually means preparing a crap load of spells just for that occasion, which makes them unprepared for other situations, and if they are unprepared for a situation they can easily be the worst class. To me, this makes them balanced, like all classes are meant to be.

Druids though, are a tougher matter. They don't have the highest attack bonus, damage potential, ac, initiative, speed, skill points, number of spells, spell dcs, or saving throws, but they are still always well prepared for pretty much any situation. Through wild shape, they can become extremely fast or tough and still cast spells. They can track without the track feat, sneak without skills or spells, fight in melee without spells/weapons/high abilities.

What most people tend to disregard in matters of class balance is that just because a character is capable of something doesn't mean they accomplish it.

Also, if you have problems with character class balance, start enforcing more standard rules, such as the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8), community gp limits, the availability of magic items, and things like grappling/disarming/sundering/items being affected by damage from things like breath weapons/counterspelling/and actually making wizards make spellcraft dcs and deal with the intricacies of scrolls and wands and such.

My usual answer to someone in my games who says things like "gnomes are underpowered" or "wizards are the best" is to say "So don't play a gnome" or "then play a wizard." If you are a good dm, then things don't get unbalanced and everybody is happy with their characters.

Eldariel
2008-12-30, 06:53 AM
Also, if you have problems with character class balance, start enforcing more standard rules, such as the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8), community gp limits, the availability of magic items, and things like grappling/disarming/sundering/items being affected by damage from things like breath weapons/counterspelling/and actually making wizards make spellcraft dcs and deal with the intricacies of scrolls and wands and such.

Uhm, Elite Array is just fine for casters. It's the non-casters that get the shaft, being unable to get high stats to their tertiary and fourth stats. Also, community GP limits and low magic item availability all favour casters. Basically, if you play by the strict rules, the difference between casters and non-casters becomes much larger than when playing by loose rules.

dragonhand
2009-01-03, 11:47 PM
which is better for any warlock to multiclass into? i'm thinking rogue or fighter. rogue gets sneak attack (SNEAK ATTACK $%!&-Haley Starshine) but fighter gets major amount of feats (purchase bow and pretend to be a long range fighter. not sure how that will work.)

FMArthur
2009-01-04, 12:36 AM
Yeah, I'd go with rogue.

monty
2009-01-04, 12:46 AM
which is better for any warlock to multiclass into? i'm thinking rogue or fighter. rogue gets sneak attack (SNEAK ATTACK $%!&-Haley Starshine) but fighter gets major amount of feats (purchase bow and pretend to be a long range fighter. not sure how that will work.)

Definitely rogue. Warlock doesn't really need feats.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-04, 12:55 AM
Barbarian: can't beat rage and it let's you acquire the best prestige classes: Bear Warrior and the ever ridiculous Frenzied Berserker.:smallbiggrin: Oh, I've had some good times with the latter.

dragonhand
2009-01-04, 11:53 AM
i don't think a warlock can rage and EB at the same time (unless you're talking about this thread's main question in which case i won't argue.) and to my latest question, i had a feeling people would say rogue.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 01:52 PM
I was just wondering what some people's favorite DND class was. Anyone is welcome to post opinions, stories of crazy stuff that class has done, and anything of the like. Just please, don't let any arguments get out of hand, it's just a discussion, and it's nothing personal if someone has a differing opinion than you.

Fredthefighter
2009-01-04, 02:01 PM
I like the Fighter, Ranger and Barbarian classes the most. Possibly because they are the closest things you can get to pure melee (Paladin does not count, neither does Rogue).
I like Fighter because with all of their feats you can optimise a kickass whirlwind-of-steel character. (Weapon focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Weapon Specialisation, Greater W.F and W.S, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative)
I like Barbarian because you can just throw them at the enemy and they will still come back covered in blood, some of it theres but they have the HP to take it (d12 rules).
I like Ranger because they can rush into battle, flip over their opponent and then slice him into ribbons, then they sick fido on the next guy, who gets his throat ripped out.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-04, 02:19 PM
have a huge weakness for bards, warmages, and dread necromancers.

bards are simply put just fun. from their soun tendo method to do a bardic knowledge check to have heard stories about something and maybe have slight information of importance, to their near random mx of spells and weapons. rare to make the same bard twice.

warmages just fufill my desire to destroy stuff. played an evil campaign where he was kidnapped by and later joined pirates. biggest lesson in that: fireballs, gunpowder and wooden boats dont mix.

dread necro is a being who can become death personified. yeah a lich but in so many ways so much more.

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 02:37 PM
I suggest you read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99630) thread.

monty
2009-01-04, 02:41 PM
As I said in the other thread, Swordsage is my favorite, followed by Factotum.

Spiryt
2009-01-04, 02:51 PM
Ranger. Beacue I like the idea from long time. And all.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-04, 02:57 PM
I like the Fighter, Ranger and Barbarian classes the most. Possibly because they are the closest things you can get to pure melee (Paladin does not count, neither does Rogue).
I like Fighter because with all of their feats you can optimise a kickass whirlwind-of-steel character. (Weapon focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Weapon Specialisation, Greater W.F and W.S, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative)
I like Barbarian because you can just throw them at the enemy and they will still come back covered in blood, some of it theres but they have the HP to take it (d12 rules).
I like Ranger because they can rush into battle, flip over their opponent and then slice him into ribbons, then they sick fido on the next guy, who gets his throat ripped out.

I also prefer the combat classes. Barbarian is good but you only really need one level to rage. Sure they have the highest hit die, but they don't really get anything else that useful. Fighters also nice, but fighters just seem like a class with no personality so they try to give it one with tones of feats. I mean, every class gets something that make s it unique (rogues - sneak attack, barbarian - rage, cleric - turn undead, etc) but fighters just get feats (which all classes get). Ranger I like: good hybrid of fighter and scout.

woodenbandman
2009-01-04, 03:11 PM
Oh dude back in 2e, Ranger1/Rogue the rest was BOSS. You could dual-wield without penalty for x5 "backstab" damage with each swing. Also, Wizard.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-04, 03:21 PM
Warlock and beguiler!

Delaney Gale
2009-01-04, 03:30 PM
I unabashedly love playing rogues. They require an element of "clever", but if you pull it off, you have a lot of options open for you both in character-building and character development. My current rogue/transmuter hasn't been below half her hit points in the entire campaign, and we're running Die, Vecna, Die!... so, there's a lot to be said about having a character with the smarts and skills to keep out of the way in combat. The only thing I'm not a fan of is the saves- Will and Fort saves are not my friends.

Glyde
2009-01-04, 04:03 PM
Blade (From 2e, or the awesome bard variant some kind playgrounder made.)


Next to that, I'm gonna say Cleric.

Thorin
2009-01-04, 04:10 PM
Warlock FTW

also wizards; because there exist no such thing as "limit" for them

FMArthur
2009-01-04, 04:18 PM
Assuming Base Classes only, right (there are a million PrCs that I love)?

Definitely the swordsage for me. Lots of fun, lots of style, and no daily resources to conserve for later.

Efil
2009-01-04, 04:21 PM
I love swordsage for having lots of renewable options, and beguiler for being a int-based skillmonkey (I can never get enough skillpoints)/trickster, again with many options.

Egiam
2009-01-04, 04:44 PM
I unabashedly love playing rogues. They require an element of "clever", but if you pull it off, you have a lot of options open for you both in character-building and character development. My current rogue/transmuter hasn't been below half her hit points in the entire campaign, and we're running Die, Vecna, Die!... so, there's a lot to be said about having a character with the smarts and skills to keep out of the way in combat. The only thing I'm not a fan of is the saves- Will and Fort saves are not my friends.

I totally agree. I also appreciate wizards.

GryffonDurime
2009-01-04, 04:53 PM
I love the Warlock: being able to throw around magic all day long is just wonderful. Granted, you have to finesse the fluff from time to time, but there's just something undeniably classy about punctuating your sentances with explosions rather than periods. Normal casters aren't going to laser through a door with their precious spells--especially Batman. They've got better things to do with their magic.

But it is so much fun to have that option. Shatter...mmm. And Warlocks are interesting because they actually have a very worthwhile Theurge class in the Eldritch Disciple.

SurlySeraph
2009-01-04, 06:45 PM
Paladin, because SMITE EVIL.

Demons_eye
2009-01-04, 06:53 PM
Monks cuz I love the flavor.

Hectonkhyres
2009-01-04, 07:06 PM
Factotum first and foremost; There is little more rewarding than knowing that you can do anything. Second would be the marching army of darkness we call the Dread Necromancer, the one man demographic. And third would be the Warlock. Do as much as you want, as long as you want for whatever petty little reason comes to mind. Never again will you try to save a spell for that special badass who might or might not be coming round the corner. Burn it all down!

pyrefiend
2009-01-04, 07:11 PM
Psion, definitely. I always liked the idea that the powers were coming from your own mind rather than a deity.... and I've always disliked arcane magic for some reason.

Zaphrasz
2009-01-04, 07:32 PM
Wizards. Mechanically, it should be obvious why this class is awesome. The main reason I love them is for flavor reasons, though. There is just something very satisfying about a man who, through sheer force of will, dedication, and creativity is capable of rewriting reality. The Wizard does this through strenuous study that he must pour his heart and soul into if he has any chance of achieving anything. It is just satisfying to see hard work pay off in a grand way. There is also something of an underdog undertone going on in some cases. In many fantasy settings, magic is mistrusted, or frowned upon. Then here comes our magic user, who studies and learns despite this, knowing that his work may one day pay off in a grand way, and that those who once scorned him will know who was correct all along.

Fighting is no simple feat, and requires a great deal of study and training to do correctly too, but I always saw magic as something on a whole different level. Compared to learning the intricacies of the universe, it just seemed like the easy way to achieve greatness. It may pay off, but not nearly to the degree that magic will. I think Second edition modeled this best, what will Wizards needing more experience to achieve the same levels as fighters. This is a big flavor issue in 3rd edition for me, since it doesn't really take any skill to achieve greatness as a wizard.

Harperfan7
2009-01-04, 10:00 PM
Scout.

I had being trying to make a rogue/ranger hybrid for a long time until the scout came out. Granted that skirmish can only be used once a round, but if your DM agrees that its underpowered, fixes can be made. Just freaking PURE LOVE this class.

I also like
Rogues - Rangers - Monks - Transmuters

Callos_DeTerran
2009-01-04, 10:03 PM
Warblade. And for one real reason. One of my...three I think, Crowning Moments of Awesome came from my long-term warblade character against a Cryo-hydra with I think twelve heads...in single combat.

The DM ruled that each head counted as a separate creature for the purposes of of the Ironheart maneuver that hits every enemy adjacent to you once. My Warblade, quite literally, decapitated all of the cryo-hydra's heads in six seconds before it even had a chance to unleash it's breath weapons on the town we were defending. Still burned the stumps though.

Weezer
2009-01-04, 10:07 PM
I love Rogues, because they are all sneaky and stabby like :smallbiggrin:
not to mention being very versatile