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newbDM
2008-12-14, 11:30 PM
I am currently watching a documentary on the Science Channel concerning animal and possibly human hybrids, and have just looked up some information on rare fertile mule hybrids (have not found anything about other fertile hybrids).

Link to mule article with the fertile mules section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#Fertile_mules


This got me thinking about what the offspring of a half-elf would be, or if they can even reproduce. Would they be like mules in that only females/rare females half-elves can reproduce, and even then it is only because they accidentally got a full set of the genes needed to reproduce from A or B parent, meaning depending which of the original A or B race she mated with the offspring would end up being either 100% of race A (even though she is a hybrid herself) or another mix hybrid (you need to see the article above to understand)?

monty
2008-12-14, 11:31 PM
Depends what the other parent is.

AslanCross
2008-12-14, 11:34 PM
If I'm not mistaken, half-elves breed true.

Half-elf + human would result in either half-elf or human, while the same would be true for a half-elf and an elf.

Fishy
2008-12-14, 11:40 PM
Yup. It's in Races of Destiny.

Magic > Genetics.

LibraryOgre
2008-12-14, 11:48 PM
The general rules, as I remember them, is Human + Half-elf = Human; Elf + Half-elf = Elf. Half-elf + Half-elf = Half-elf.

newbDM
2008-12-14, 11:55 PM
Yup. It's in Races of Destiny.

Magic > Genetics.

But how does magic play a part in this? Not everything in D&D has magic involved. Some things are still done the old fashion way.

Dervag
2008-12-15, 12:04 AM
All the precedents in the D&D books say that half-elves are fertile.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 12:38 AM
The general rules, as I remember them, is Human + Half-elf = Human; Elf + Half-elf = Elf. Half-elf + Half-elf = Half-elf.That is correct, I'm fairly certain.

monty
2008-12-15, 12:40 AM
Since when does D&D use real-world genetics anyway?

Kizara
2008-12-15, 12:48 AM
Since when does D&D use real-world genetics anyway?

Dragon + Ooze = Half-Dragon Ooze... What?

Solar + rat= Half-Celestial Rat... the?

Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon... Hell?

Deth Muncher
2008-12-15, 12:52 AM
Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon

You forgot:

Fiend + Fiend = Half-Fiend Fiend

skywalker
2008-12-15, 12:53 AM
I follow Tolkien. So Half-Elves are fertile. And every child of every child of every child (and so on) of a half-elf is also a half-elf.

RTGoodman
2008-12-15, 12:58 AM
Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon... Hell?

Hey, WotC actually statted out a Half-White Dragon Copper Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a), so I think a Half-Demon Demon or whatever is perfectly fine.

UglyPanda
2008-12-15, 01:04 AM
...
Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon... Hell?
The other half is also Demon.

I don't think D&D has rules for genetics at all. It just has rules for template stacking and common sense.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 01:05 AM
You forgot:

Fiend + Fiend = Half-Fiend Fiend

Actually that was exactly what I was refering to.


Hey, WotC actually statted out a Half-White Dragon Copper Dragon, so I think a Half-Demon Demon or whatever is perfectly fine.

LOL.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 01:05 AM
I follow Tolkien. So Half-Elves are fertile. And every child of every child of every child (and so on) of a half-elf is also a half-elf.So, no humans exist?

Lemur
2008-12-15, 01:20 AM
Hey, WotC actually statted out a Half-White Dragon Copper Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a), so I think a Half-Demon Demon or whatever is perfectly fine.

At first I wondered why a white and copper dragon would consider mating, but then I thought of both dragons polymorphing into humans to try to mate with another human, and ending up with each other. Sounds like a tale for the bards.


Edit: So did anyone else think of Metal Gear and "flawed recessive genes" when reading this thread? :P

KKL
2008-12-15, 01:22 AM
At first I wondered why a white and copper dragon would consider mating, but then I thought of both dragons polymorphing into humans to try to mate with another human, and ending up with each other.

They fight crime.

skywalker
2008-12-15, 02:36 AM
So, no humans exist?

No... Not everyone mates with half-elves... I'm just thinking about the geneologies in Tolkien's works, there were only ever 3 "half-elves," but their descendants were also "half-elves." For instance, Elrond was half-elven, given the choice between mortal life and immortal life. His daughter, Arwen, was technically not a half-elf. She was more a 3 quarters elf. But she was still given the choice, a long with her brothers.

Similarly, Aragorn was descended from Elrond's twin brother, altho through many generations. But he technically still had Elven blood.

In Tolkien, tho, the Elves only breed with Elves, and when they do breed with humans, those humans' descendants are only allowed to breed with other high-born, etc. It's very classist, you know? So humans do exist. There are actually even fewer "half-elves" than there are in D&D, probably, even if you do consider descendants half-elves.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 02:40 AM
No... Not everyone mates with half-elves... I'm just thinking about the geneologies in Tolkien's works, there were only ever 3 "half-elves," but their descendants were also "half-elves." For instance, Elrond was half-elven, given the choice between mortal life and immortal life. His daughter, Arwen, was technically not a half-elf. She was more a 3 quarters elf. But she was still given the choice, a long with her brothers.

Similarly, Aragorn was descended from Elrond's twin brother, altho through many generations. But he technically still had Elven blood.

In Tolkien, tho, the Elves only breed with Elves, and when they do breed with humans, those humans' descendants are only allowed to breed with other high-born, etc. It's very classist, you know? So humans do exist. There are actually even fewer "half-elves" than there are in D&D, probably, even if you do consider descendants half-elves.What I mean is that since elves have generally been around for a long time in many settings(generally, significantly more than humans, or at least no less), wouldn't their genes spread through most of the population(ignoring natural selection which would make them die off due to half-elves sucking).

newbDM
2008-12-15, 02:40 AM
At first I wondered why a white and copper dragon would consider mating, but then I thought of both dragons polymorphing into humans to try to mate with another human, and ending up with each other. Sounds like a tale for the bards.

Now I keep thinking of funny scenarios with that crazy couple. The quirky and joke making copper, and the permanently PMSing white misses back at home demanding human flavored ice cream a dwarven pickels. :smallbiggrin:

They would make for some interesting NPCs...

monty
2008-12-15, 02:48 AM
What I mean is that since elves have generally been around for a long time in many settings(generally, significantly more than humans, or at least no less), wouldn't their genes spread through most of the population(ignoring natural selection which would make them die off due to half-elves sucking).

My impression was they reproduce much less frequently to make up for it.

ShadowFighter15
2008-12-15, 02:50 AM
The general rules, as I remember them, is Human + Half-elf = Human; Elf + Half-elf = Elf. Half-elf + Half-elf = Half-elf.

This is how I've seen it too, though the quarter-breed will still have traits of the other species. So the child of a human and a half-elf will be a human, but still have elven traits (not enough to be bothered with in the rules, thought) while the child of an elf and a half-elf will be an elf with slightly human features.

Starsinger
2008-12-15, 03:07 AM
I follow Tolkien. So Half-Elves are fertile. And every child of every child of every child (and so on) of a half-elf is also a half-elf.

I was under the impression that despite Elrond being half-elf, Arwen was not.

kamikasei
2008-12-15, 03:38 AM
I was under the impression that despite Elrond being half-elf, Arwen was not.

It's complicated. Elrond and his brother are not the first or only half-elves. They are the products of a couple of elf/human pairings coming together after a few generations and they happen to be the two still around when the gods do some restructuring of Middle-earth. Since the gods aren't quite sure what to do with them, they give them a choice: be counted as elves, or as men; and the choice extends to their offspring (at least, to Elrond's. I don't think his brother, who chose to be counted among Men, got to pass on that choice).

So Arwen was an elf, and immortal, and if she chose she could have sailed to the West and lived forever in paradise (as the other elves did). She instead chose to be counted among Men and grow old and die truly, though she lived as an elf for three thousand years before making that choice.

It's not really got anything to do with genetics.

[/tangent]

So anyway - it depends on the setting. My default assumption is that a half-elf's child will be either a half-elf or whatever it's three-quarters of. In some settings, e.g. Eberron, half-elves are their own race (though even there it may work out the same if you have a half-elf/elf or /human pairing).

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-15, 03:58 AM
Dragon + Ooze = Half-Dragon Ooze... What?

Solar + rat= Half-Celestial Rat... the?

Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon... Hell Abyss?

Better this way :smallbiggrin:

SoD
2008-12-15, 06:10 AM
Hey, WotC actually statted out a Half-White Dragon Copper Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a), so I think a Half-Demon Demon or whatever is perfectly fine.

So? You can legally create a half-red-dragon-half-white-dragon-half-gold-dragon Bronze Dragon.

Project_Mayhem
2008-12-15, 07:40 AM
So? You can legally create a half-red-dragon-half-white-dragon-half-gold-dragon Bronze Dragon.

'Cept in the linked article it points out that the Draconomican says you cant apply the half-dragon template to dragons.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-15, 08:13 AM
But how does magic play a part in this? Not everything in D&D has magic involved. Some things are still done the old fashion way.

It sure ain't genetics, and that only leaves magic.

It ain't genetics because it doesn't make sense. If humans and elves can breed, and especially if the offspring can breed true, then they are not separate species, and would have a common origin. In most D&D worlds, this is not so. (Faerûn being a prominent one.) In a very few, they are actually related (Athas being the main one).

If humans and elves can breed, and humans and orcs can breed, then elves and orcs should be able to breed. This logic extends to all the other races.

That's another issue - for reasons lost to antiquity (e.g. Gygax etc. being stupid and not understanding what "race" means), they're called races, not species, even though it appears clear they are species. This muddies the matter further.


I follow Tolkien. So Half-Elves are fertile. And every child of every child of every child (and so on) of a half-elf is also a half-elf.

That doesn't sound like Tolkien to me. By your logic, Aragorn is a half-elf.

There's a considerable amount of weirdness with the Middle Earth half-elves (Beren and Luthien's line isn't even the only one; in fact, Elrond and Elros are the descendants of two separate houses of half-elves). For one thing, they got to pick whether they were an elf or a human. (Although it seems like the default was elf, but they could, at any point, make the irrevokable choice to be a mortal human.)

Generally, the children of half-elves are half-elves, but only up to a point. That point seems to be the choice; Elros' descendents were apparently full men, just nobler and greater by virtue of their elven blood. (Well, probably. Really, the High Men were practically the equals of elves in strength, nobility, and other qualities - they just didn't have as long to hone them.)

Aragorn's elven (and Maiar; don't forget that Luthien herself was only half elf; the other half was Maia) blood was pretty much nonexistent, and by the Third Age, its effects were probably none. The Dúnedain of the Third Age - even of the pure lines, like Aragorn's apparently was (the line of Gondor was mixed with Northman blood in the mid-Third Age, causing the Kinstrife) - were not as great in stature or nearly as long-lived as the men of the great houses of the First Age they were descended from. Aragorn's incredibly long lifespan would probably have been considered short in the First Age.


So, no humans exist?

Only the Dúnedain are descended partly from elves. Admittedly, they mixed with the local peoples so much that by the end of the Third Age, most of the people of Eriador and Gondor would, indeed, be half-elves by skywalker's logic.


I was under the impression that despite Elrond being half-elf, Arwen was not.

She was. Maybe it was because Elrond was doubly half-elven. Well, er, actually... Earendil was half-elven, Elwing was 3/4-elven, so Elrond is 5/8-elven or something? Anyway, Arwen was allowed the choice of mortality or immortality, and chose mortality. That indicates she was, indeed, half-elven.

Of course, the whole choice thing may not be related to being half-elf so much as it is related to being descended from Luthien (technically a half-elf herself), who gave up her immortality to bring Beren back from the dead. (Really, Aragorn and Arwen's romance is just a pale reflection of Beren and Luthien.)

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 08:31 AM
But how does magic play a part in this? Not everything in D&D has magic involved. Some things are still done the old fashion way.

Well you have to remember this is a setting where some wizard made owlbears by getting an owl and a bear to make sweet, sweet love...

there is no science here, only madness

hewhosaysfish
2008-12-15, 09:33 AM
I take it you mean what rules you should apply rather than what they actually are?

I would disagree with the others hear who says that a 1/4 elf should be treated as human and a 3/4 elf as an elf. I would treat anything from 1/4 to 3/4 (inclusive) use the rules a half-elf. Obviously, anything fraction less than a 1/4 would uses the rules for a human and anything greater than 3/4 would use the rules for an an elf.
Actually, for values around these decision boundaries I would be inclined to randomise it one way or the other, to represent levels of individual variation (so a half-elf and an elf could have some children who followed the elf rules and some who followed the half-elf rules). This could get slightly involved though, when trying to decide on which ones are close enough to the line to randomise and what probabilites to use and so on. Easier just to make the 1/4 mark a hard boundary.

Note that this is only for detemining which rules apply to the individual. A 3/4 elf may use the rules a half-elf but would still be a 3/4 elf, meaning they may appear slightly more elven and (more concretely, in terms of mechanics) any child they had with an elf would be a 7/8 elf (thus using the rules for elves) rather than another 3/4 elf.

Also, this is entirely based off species as a natural kind, which is always divided evenly and can to arbitrarily small fractions. This fits with the magical worldview in a lot of ways (at least, it seems more thematically appropriate) but doesn't match up to the scientific ideas (as I understand them) so well.
Since everything I know about genetics is either 1) something I learned in school when I was twelve years old or 2) something I have read about on the internet, I think it may be inadvisable for me to try the more "realistic" approach.


So did anyone else think of Metal Gear and "flawed recessive genes" when reading this thread? :P

No. (http://www.gigaville.com/comic.php?id=272) :smallbiggrin:

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to grow a pointed ear onto the back of a mouse.

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 09:40 AM
the most extreme example of dilution not in fact affecting rules is in shining south- a charcter, decribed as a "half drow aristocrat 13" who is in fact only 1/32 drow, and looks a lot more like a human than a drow.

so, you can get away with being half elf and being significantly closer to human than elf.

kamikasei
2008-12-15, 09:44 AM
I would disagree with the others hear who says that a 1/4 elf should be treated as human and a 3/4 elf as an elf. I would treat anything from 1/4 to 3/4 (inclusive) use the rules a half-elf. Obviously, anything fraction less than a 1/4 would uses the rules for a human and anything greater than 3/4 would use the rules for an an elf.

The disadvantage of this is that you have to track two different possible outcomes when a half-elf mates with a human: if the half-elf is actually only 1/4 elf, the offspring will be human, otherwise it will be a half-elf (and the same applies substituting elf for human). It's simpler if all half-elves are really half-elf; then any pairing has a set outcome and you don't have to track the genealogy of the specific participants.

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 09:48 AM
yes, but it's not generally consistant with the novels. Going by several books, elf blood tends to be dominant- you have to be some way down the line to start having human offspring.

It could be handled as a bit like Mendelian genetics- each human has HH, each elf has EE, any person with one E gene is an elf.

But that would lead to one in four of half-elf-half-elf crosses being human, and one in four being elf.

so that doesn't work very well.

Though it could help for half-elf- human crosses- simply assume some of the time, offspring will be half elf, some of the time, will be human.

kamikasei
2008-12-15, 09:53 AM
yes, but it's not generally consistant with the novels.

Eh, screw the novels. If the game is set in FR then the FR novels are a useful guide; if it's in Eberron the Eberron novels are a useful guide; but just going by the core books, what we want is a reasonable rule, which will not necessarily be what authors and precedent have put together for any given setting.

Eloel
2008-12-15, 09:53 AM
yes, but it's not generally consistant with the novels. Going by several books, elf blood tends to be dominant- you have to be some way down the line to start having human offspring.

It could be handled as a bit like Mendelian genetics- each human has HH, each elf has EE, any person with one E gene is an HALF-elf.

But that would lead to one in four of half-elf-half-elf crosses being human, and one in four being elf.

so that doesn't work very well.

Though it could help for half-elf- human crosses- simply assume some of the time, offspring will be half elf, some of the time, will be human.

This is what I always thought...

monty
2008-12-15, 10:05 AM
yes, but it's not generally consistant with the novels. Going by several books, elf blood tends to be dominant- you have to be some way down the line to start having human offspring.

It could be handled as a bit like Mendelian genetics- each human has HH, each elf has EE, any person with one E gene is an elf.

But that would lead to one in four of half-elf-half-elf crosses being human, and one in four being elf.

so that doesn't work very well.

Though it could help for half-elf- human crosses- simply assume some of the time, offspring will be half elf, some of the time, will be human.

"Mendelian genetics"? What sort of trickery is this?

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 10:07 AM
D&D inheritnace seems to work more like "beanbag genetics" with inheritance diluting. Half-fiend- tiefling- human.

Though occasionally you do get "throwbacks" a tiefling born to humans who have some fiend in their family tree, way back.

WickerNipple
2008-12-15, 10:25 AM
My Half-HalfElf Half-Halfling is getting a kick out of these replies.

Coidzor
2008-12-15, 10:27 AM
My Half-HalfElf Half-Halfling is getting a kick out of these replies.

But what's the other quarter made of? :smalltongue:


Is anyone else suddenly reminded of Gar, the world's smartest "Orc" from Arcanum?

Immutep
2008-12-15, 10:42 AM
But what's the other quarter made of? :smalltongue:

LOL.

As for Half-Half's offspring, i think that a choice between the two wouldn't be too much of a stretch, the Half-Elf and Half-Elf breed could be Human or Elf if one side of the genepool is more dominant than the other, much like Hereditary traits like being able to roll your tongue.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-15, 10:45 AM
I've also seen the Elven Purity Clause used at times...

Elf + half-elf = half-elf
Half-elf + human = human
Half-elf + half-elf = 50% chance each of half-elf or human

LibraryOgre
2008-12-15, 10:50 AM
No... Not everyone mates with half-elves... I'm just thinking about the geneologies in Tolkien's works, there were only ever 3 "half-elves," but their descendants were also "half-elves." For instance, Elrond was half-elven, given the choice between mortal life and immortal life. His daughter, Arwen, was technically not a half-elf. She was more a 3 quarters elf. But she was still given the choice, a long with her brothers.

Similarly, Aragorn was descended from Elrond's twin brother, altho through many generations. But he technically still had Elven blood.

In Tolkien, tho, the Elves only breed with Elves, and when they do breed with humans, those humans' descendants are only allowed to breed with other high-born, etc. It's very classist, you know? So humans do exist. There are actually even fewer "half-elves" than there are in D&D, probably, even if you do consider descendants half-elves.

Actually, this is pretty much the math used in 1e and 2e.

If you had more human ancestors than elven, you were human. If you had more elven ancestors than human, or were equally balanced, you were half-elf.

Starbuck_II
2008-12-15, 10:50 AM
That doesn't sound like Tolkien to me. By your logic, Aragorn is a half-elf.

Aragorn's elven (and Maiar; don't forget that Luthien herself was only half elf; the other half was Maia) blood was pretty much nonexistent, and by the Third Age, its effects were probably none. The Dúnedain of the Third Age - even of the pure lines, like Aragorn's apparently was (the line of Gondor was mixed with Northman blood in the mid-Third Age, causing the Kinstrife) - were not as great in stature or nearly as long-lived as the men of the great houses of the First Age they were descended from. Aragorn's incredibly long lifespan would probably have been considered short in the First Age.


Aragorn is a 1/2 Elf. The just sort of gloss over that bit when they discuss him as king of humans.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-15, 10:56 AM
Aragorn is a 1/2 Elf. The just sort of gloss over that bit when they discuss him as king of humans.

None of the Númenorean kings were, and none of their descendants are. Where is he (or any king of Elros' line, except Elros himself) ever identified as a half-elf?

DigoDragon
2008-12-15, 11:05 AM
I don't think D&D has rules for genetics at all. It just has rules for template stacking and common sense.

I don't remember common sense being listed in the RAW. :smallwink:

I really don't see these situations coming up often enough to warrent rules, so I'd say it's DM's call as the situation arises.

Coidzor
2008-12-15, 11:06 AM
He also had a few extra templates such as Numenorean (Specifically blessed by the established gods to be different from lesser men, right?) and Maia-blooded in addition to his actual racial composition.

I favor the "stays half-elven for at least the 2nd generation and then reverts back to base human or elf," but also like the Mendelian idea of being able to have 2 half-elves end up having an elven baby.

As far as genetics go, I favor the interpretation that there's a base-line humanoid genestock that bifurcated into humans, elves, halflings, and orcs (maybe dwarves and gnomes as well, depending upon the flavor), in the same way that goblinoid stock trifurcated into hobos, bears, and gobstoppers. I blame Arcanum for that idea having infiltrated me. Your Mileage Will Vary, of course, depending upon what world one is operating in... And how alien the elves are.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-15, 11:21 AM
He also had a few extra templates such as Numenorean (Specifically blessed by the established gods to be different from lesser men, right?) and Maia-blooded in addition to his actual racial composition.

Not exactly. The Númenoreans were just the descendants of the High Men (Adan/Edain) - the Houses of Bëor, etc. - who lived on the island of Númenor. When they came back to the continent as conquerors, they were called Dúnedain, (High?) Men of the West. By the Second and Third Ages, they were so far diminished (even the pure lines) that they weren't all that impressive or blessed compared to the common Men they ruled over and mixed with.

The whole running theme of Middle Earth is diminishing glory, pretty much. It doesn't get played up nearly enough, but it is awesome and tragic. The Silmarillion, especially, is basically one long story of "things started out great but it all kind of went to hell."

three08
2008-12-15, 02:17 PM
i mean as far as effects targeting humans or elves they have a sort of a one-drop rule going on here, so i would assume that half-elves would breed more half-elves. still, why not just torrent the erotica handbook? i'm sure there's an entire chapter on just this question.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 02:19 PM
i mean as far as effects targeting humans or elves they have a sort of a one-drop rule going on here, so i would assume that half-elves would breed more half-elves. still, why not just torrent the erotica handbook? i'm sure there's an entire chapter on just this question.BoEF? There is. That's where the rule I agreed with in the beginning came from.

bosssmiley
2008-12-15, 02:45 PM
Well you have to remember this is a setting where some wizard made owlbears by getting an owl and a bear to make sweet, sweet love...

there is no science here, only madness that special Barry White magic

D&D half-elf descendants? Check "Races of Density", or make a DM call.

You might go for the "one drop makes you one of them" view (if you enjoy banjo-playing and/or vortrekking), you might go for the "dominant strain determines race" view, but please don't go for the really annoying composite racial identity schtick they parody in Sigil Prep (http://www.sigilprep.com/humans.htm). :smallamused:

turkishproverb
2008-12-15, 03:23 PM
I just wanted to address a myth that comes up a lot in these threads, and I've already seen once in this thread.

Inter species breeding can on occasion lead to fertile offspring, such as the Liger or Tigon being able to breed with a Tiger or lion on occasion and produce an offspring.

At the very least it is relatively easy to believe that Elves and Humans breeding would work much the same, although certain other combos (IE Half Dragons) are harder to explain.

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 03:26 PM
true, but its not all that common.

One of the odder real life examples of interspecies infertility is Herring Gull + Lesser Black-backed Gull- infertile with each other, but fertile with intermediate subspecies- so you get different subspecies in each region, with the overlapping zone, where the regions meet up again, having the two infertile-with-each-other species sharing the same range.

kopout
2008-12-15, 03:30 PM
No... Not everyone mates with half-elves... I'm just thinking about the geneologies in Tolkien's works, there were only ever 3 "half-elves," but their descendants were also "half-elves." For instance, Elrond was half-elven, given the choice between mortal life and immortal life. His daughter, Arwen, was technically not a half-elf. She was more a 3 quarters elf. But she was still given the choice, a long with her brothers.

Similarly, Aragorn was descended from Elrond's twin brother, altho through many generations. But he technically still had Elven blood.

In Tolkien, tho, the Elves only breed with Elves, and when they do breed with humans, those humans' descendants are only allowed to breed with other high-born, etc. It's very classist, you know? So humans do exist. There are actually even fewer "half-elves" than there are in D&D, probably, even if you do consider descendants half-elves.

but half-elf in this case is just a term its like being the grandson of an Italian you are quarter Italian the Italian genes get diluted in the general population.

kopout
2008-12-15, 03:35 PM
true, but its not all that common.

One of the odder real life examples of interspecies infertility is Herring Gull + Lesser Black-backed Gull- infertile with each other, but fertile with intermediate subspecies- so you get different subspecies in each region, with the overlapping zone, where the regions meet up again, having the two infertile-with-each-other species sharing the same range.

yup it is a circle around the arctic
and givin the way you have humans+ elves equal half-elf and human plus dwarf =??? half-dwarf ? my analogy just collapsed on me

hamishspence
2008-12-15, 03:37 PM
The irony is "real world" genetics makes some things in D&D more plausible- human parents with a trace of fiendish blood giving birth to a tiefling offspring. Because, Mendelian genetics allows this sort of thing- recessive genes, double dose of the gene lead to offspring with traits that the parents lack.

whereas "beanbag" genetics led to the assumption that traits got diluted into general population and disappeared.

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 03:43 PM
[QUOTE=bosssmiley;5481738] Barry White

[/QUOTE

I was thinking more George Michael

Sex is natural - (well some of the time)
sex is good
Not everybody does it
But everybody should
Sex is natural
sex is fun (from time to time)
Sex is best when it's... One on one

What's your definition of dirty baby
(i dono, if an owl has sex with a bear, are they each committing bestiality?)

Epinephrine
2008-12-15, 04:28 PM
All I can think of are the (horrible, horrible...) Piers Anthony books about Xanth, where everything pretty much mates with anything (provided there's a love potion or something around).

Immutep
2008-12-15, 04:40 PM
Not exactly. The Númenoreans were just the descendants of the High Men (Adan/Edain) - the Houses of Bëor, etc. - who lived on the island of Númenor. When they came back to the continent as conquerors, they were called Dúnedain, (High?) Men of the West. By the Second and Third Ages, they were so far diminished (even the pure lines) that they weren't all that impressive or blessed compared to the common Men they ruled over and mixed with.

I believe the person you were quoting had a point about the numenorian template. That's how wev'e got to look at it for D&D right? Plus i don't think it was just their decendandts that became Numenorian, it was like a gift from the Gods given to those men who'd helped the elves defeat Sauron's predecessor (Morgoth?) and they diminishing of the lifespan started before the reurned to middle earth as well, it was meant to be linked to Numenorian sailors crossing some kind of preset limit on their exploration journeys if i remember right. Been ages since i read these books!

Kyace
2008-12-15, 05:28 PM
It sure ain't genetics, and that only leaves magic.
Not completely true (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphic_field). Not completely false.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-15, 08:30 PM
It sure ain't genetics, and that only leaves magic.
In D&D non-magical abilities can explicitly break the laws of physics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities). "Magic", in normal D&D parlance, does not refer to things that don't follow the real world's natural laws. Nothing in D&D follows the real world's fundamental natural laws. There are surface similarities, sure, but when you get down to it we're talking about a world made up of the basic elements of earth, water, air, and fire, not hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, helium, and all that other stuff. In this particular case: There's heredity, obviously, but definitely not genes in the same physical form as in the real world. DnDworld doesn't have the same sorts of molecules as our world does, if it has molecules at all.

If you insist on using "magic" to mean different from anything in the real world, then everything in D&D is magical. The world as a whole is magical. But people in the setting use the word "magic" in a more restricted way, obviously.

ericgrau
2008-12-15, 10:35 PM
Rules say either.

skywalker
2008-12-15, 11:55 PM
The people who lived on numenor (who the numenoreans were descended from) were the descendants of Elros, Elrond's brother who chose mortality. So they weren't just blessed, they had elven blood. And altho they were diluted by the end of the third age by marrying into lesser peoples, they weren't diluted enough to shorten Aragorn's life considerably, or to shorten his stature, or his "kingly fury." Of course, he was also taking up his kingship for the first time in a long time, but he still had all the abilities.

The best way to look at numenorean, in my opinion, is not as a template, but as a separate race. But template would work.

I personally was always a little creeped out by how close Aragorn and Arwen were on the geneology charts (altho that's mainly because they want to show Aragorn's elven ancestry). These charts are primarily the place where Aragorn is indicated to be half-elven. Here's the type of image that freaks me out : Link (http://cosmin.co.uk/trees/half_elven.gif).

There aren't many half-elves because the elves are very selective about who they breed with, and the half-elves even moreso. Plus, their children have nasty habit of dying or re-breeding with elves.

Tolkien also has a history of half-breeds and others ruling other races as kings. The kings of the wood-elves aren't wood-elves. And lots of human kings were half-elven.

newbDM
2008-12-16, 12:05 AM
I personally was always a little creeped out by how close Aragorn and Arwen were on the geneology charts (altho that's mainly because they want to show Aragorn's elven ancestry). These charts are primarily the place where Aragorn is indicated to be half-elven. Here's the type of image that freaks me out : Link (http://cosmin.co.uk/trees/half_elven.gif).

So they were cousins. There is nothing wrong with cousin couples, and the odds of genetic problems has been greatly exaggerated.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-16, 12:25 AM
So they were cousins. There is nothing wrong with cousin couples, and the odds of genetic problems has been greatly exaggerated.

I don't think you're quite "cousins" if there's dozens of generations between you... Arwen was Aragorn's great-great-great-great-[...]-great-grand-uncle's daughter.

That's probably the degree of relationship I have with just about every other Finn.

Edit: The charts do nothing to indicate Aragorn being half-elven. After something between dozens to a hundred generations of pretty much nothing but human ancestry, he's human. (Albeit a High Man, being that his particular line was apparently kept pure; although I'm not even convinced about that, considering the line of Arnor had been diminishing through mixing with Dunnish-descended and Northman peoples for at least 1,500 years even before the royal line was reduced to handful of survivors in the 17th century T.A.)

The only canon half-elves I can think of are the descendents of Beren and Luthien (Dior and his three 3/4-elven children), Eärendil, Elrond and his children (Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir; their mother was a full elf, so they're... 13/16-elven?), and Elros, who chose to be mortal. As far as I can tell, Elros is accounted a Man after his choice, and his children were Men. Even if they were accounted half-elves, countless generations of marrying humans would ensure that by the time we're talking about the Kings-in-Exile, they're well over 99.99% human.