Haley and weapons

[ABB]

Just a couple things here:

Would this new frost bolt bow work on Sabine? I dunno, I'm not into D&D.

Should Haley get more than one bow while in OBPs toyroom? I mean, they don't weigh much anjd having more than one might give her some advantage in being able to pick the right weapon for the job.

I do know enough about D&D to know there's a "bag of holding" she could put the off bows into...

[KurenaiYami]

Just a couple things here:

Would this new frost bolt bow work on Sabine? I dunno, I'm not into D&D. As well as it would on anybody else, as long as she used her obscure alchemical metals she used to scare her off the first time.


Should Haley get more than one bow while in OBPs toyroom? I mean, they don't weigh much anjd having more than one might give her some advantage in being able to pick the right weapon for the job.
Well, "should" is always a matter of opinion. I think there's something about getting a negative level whenever she uses the Axiomotic bow, but the others would probably benefit her in some way.

She still have those bags of holding? If so, then she probably should.

[ThisIsNotDan]

I don't know much about D&D, but in another thread the issue of the frost bow vs Sabine came up, and nobody seemed to know the answer. I heard everything from demons (or whatever she is) being vulnerable to ice attacks to them being resistant to ice attacks, and even certain types of demons (ice demons, surprise surprise) that take no damage from (maybe even absorb?) ice attacks.

Apparently the ice damage and the +5 bow are separate issues, though; no matter how the ice affects Sabine, the +5 is a nice touch that Haley didn't have before.

Also, I see that I've been ninja'd, but I'm posting this anyway because I took valuable time to write it O.o

[Yendor]

As a demon and/or devil, Sabine has 10 points of cold resistance, so the bow won't help a great deal, though it will do cold damage if Haley rolls well. As for taking the other weapons, Haley's in a situation where looting isn't really a top priority. Maybe later, when she isn't fighting for her life.

[FarrenCronwing]

Haley would be able to do, at a maximum, 6 cold damage to Sabine with the bow. At +1d6 per hit, you'd be able to counter at most 6 cold resistance normally. On a critical, however, an icy burst weapon adds an additional +1d10 damage on top of the D6. This would add up into 1d6+1d10 cold damage on a critical hit, or a maximum of 16 damage. Subtract 10 damage due to cold resistance, you end up with 6 damage, assuming maximum rolls on cold damage. The +5 would still come into play, as the icy burst and enhancement damage are two separate figures.

[RMS Oceanic]

Point of Order: Shortbows and Longbows have a Critical Multiplier of x3, so the Icy Burst bow would deal 2d10 extra cold damage on a critical hit.

[Hydro Globus]

no matter how the ice affects Sabine, the +5 is a nice touch that Haley didn't have before.

Except when it heals her. What it doesn't. :)

[King of Nowhere]

All that weapons seems too much wealt for a character of Haley's level, so she won't be able to pick them all for some reason (just an assumption)

[Mercenary Pen]

She'll probably end up selling the bows to raise money to spring her father from prison.

[olthar]

All that weapons seems too much wealt for a character of Haley's level, so she won't be able to pick them all for some reason (just an assumption)

as opposed to the wealth they got from the dragon?

what exactly does the axiomatic bow do?

[Assassin89]

what exactly does the axiomatic bow do?

Grants a negative level to chaotic characters and increases damage done to chaotic creatures.

[Hydro Globus]

Erm... What you are saying is correct, I don't say it isn't, but if olthar doesn't play D&D, he might be wondering about what's so good in a negative level.

I'd put it like "Increases damage done to chaotic creatures, but if a chaotic character uses it, it gives that character a negative level".

[Iuris]

Um, am I missing something?

Ok, so the frost damage is not going to do much against Sabine. But, that's not all the bow is about! What about the basic damage and the enhancement bonus? Never mind the sneak attack...

It's a great bow, no matter how one turns it around...

[Smiley_]

what exactly does the axiomatic bow do?

There are two axes of alignment in D&D. There is the well known Evil/Good one but there is also a Chaos/Law one.

Imagine a holy weapon that does extra damage to evil things. Because the weapon is holy, any evil creature that wields it can still use that holy effect but would suffer 1 negative level while using it due to the goodness radiating from the weapon.

Just like Unholy/Holy weapons, Axiomatic and Chaotic weapons work on law/chaos axis. Axiomatic weapons deal extra damage to chaotic individuals in the same way as a holy weapon deals extra damage to evil individuals. Haley is of Chaotic alignment and therefore would suffer a -1 level when wielding the axiomatic bow.

Probably ninjad, but I hope this was clear enough.

[yanmaodao]

Just like Unholy/Holy weapons, Axiomatic and Chaotic weapons work on law/chaos axis.

Not to nitpick, but I believe they're called Anarchic weapons, not Chaotic weapons.

[hamishspence]

true- in 3.5 they changed it. Why is not entirely clear- Chaotic and Lawful for property names were short and to the point.

[holywhippet]

Just a couple things here:
Would this new frost bolt bow work on Sabine? I dunno, I'm not into D&D.


In 3.0 the bow would have been great, in 3.5 it's not so great. Under 3.0 rules, any creature with damage reduction except vs. a specific metal (silver, iron etc) would take full damage from that metal or if the weapon had an enhancement bonus like a +1 sword. Some enemies had damage reduction unless the weapon had a minimum level of enhancement bonus.

In 3.5, if you don't have a weapon made of the correct type of metal then the damage is reduced regardless of what enhancement bonus might be present.

[Hydro Globus]

true- in 3.5 they changed it. Why is not entirely clear- Chaotic and Lawful for property names were short and to the point.
Exactly. That's why.

(maybe a little confusion about intelligent weapons and alignments? Nah, I don't think so...

[mikeejimbo]

as opposed to the wealth they got from the dragon?

Which, if you recall, they lost in the tavern explosion. Similarly, the Universe isn't going to let her beat WBL for long.

[King of Nowhere]

Which, if you recall, they lost in the tavern explosion. Similarly, the Universe isn't going to let her beat WBL for long.

Crap. Ninjaed.
Also, Rich explicitly said in commentary of the book that the treasure was doomed to destruction from the beginning, because it was not level appropriate. Only one (level appropriate) bag of treasure was saved. Thus, probably the +5 ice bow is to stay.
It seems in this universe the level appropriate thing applies only to PC, because Pete was not high level enough to own all that.
I wonder how he got all this money, since we know that the guild didn't pay very well.

[Isolder74]

Crap. Ninjaed.
Also, Rich explicitly said in commentary of the book that the treasure was doomed to destruction from the beginning, because it was not level appropriate. Only one (level appropriate) bag of treasure was saved. Thus, probably the +5 ice bow is to stay.
It seems in this universe the level appropriate thing applies only to PC, because Pete was not high level enough to own all that.
I wonder how he got all this money, since we know that the guild didn't pay very well.

That is probably from selling guild secrets. If he had gotten greedy enough then that might explain why he ended up getting caught doing it.

[Linkavitch]

Just a couple things here:

Would this new frost bolt bow work on Sabine? I dunno, I'm not into D&D.

Should Haley get more than one bow while in OBPs toyroom? I mean, they don't weigh much anjd having more than one might give her some advantage in being able to pick the right weapon for the job.

I do know enough about D&D to know there's a "bag of holding" she could put the off bows into...

She either did, off panel, or will, again off panel, and they'll make a reference to it when she suddenly has a +6 Bow of Increased Sniping Accuracy and Damage
Against Evil. Or something. I ask again: what does Axiomatic mean?

[Assassin89]

I ask again: what does Axiomatic mean?

Axiomatic means that a weapon is lawful aligned, meaning the weapon deals more damage to chaotic creatures, but decreases the level of a chaotic creature wielding it by one.

If anyone else has any questions about Axiomatic weapons, please examine the link to the srd. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#axiomatic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems /magicWeapons.htm#axiomatic)

[Underground]

Well ... I am a bit confused why Haley takes an Ice weapon, really.

For example, Undead are completely immune against Ice. Demons also have high resistance.

Overall its probably the weakest of all elemental damage types, because so many opponents are immune.

[Hawkeye]

Well ... I am a bit confused why Haley takes an Ice weapon, really.

For example, Undead are completely immune against Ice. Demons also have high resistance.

Overall its probably the weakest of all elemental damage types, because so many opponents are immune.

Because it's a +5 weapon and what she's fighting at the moment is members of the thieve's guild, who probably haven't got immunity or resistance to ice. When they've cleared out the building she can go back and choose a better weapon, if there actually is one. The weapon she's got is (I think) a +7 weapon if you add in the properties on it.

Edit 2 (because I iz an idiot and didn't check the comic) It's worth about 100,00gp (not 160,00 as previously stated).

[Phishfood]

Well ... I am a bit confused why Haley takes an Ice weapon, really.

For example, Undead are completely immune against Ice. Demons also have high resistance.

Overall its probably the weakest of all elemental damage types, because so many opponents are immune.

Perhaps there weren't any +5 bows of fire lying around. Just because its not the best bow in the game doesn't mean its not the best bow in the room.

Also, the minty fresh jokes wouldn't have worked on a fire bow.
Also, they have V for all their fire needs when fighting xykon's undead armies.

<edit>
Ninjad and....

Worth OVER NINE THOUSAND!!

ok, I'll go get my coat now.

[NerfTW]

I don't see the issue here. She already listed all three bows and why they were worthless at her level. She already has feats that mimic the seeking bow, she doesn't need distance, axiomatic has been explained in this thread as a really bad choice for her, and that only leaves the frost bow.

At the very least she might pick up the bow of seeking, but still, it wouldn't be worth the turn it takes to swap bows.

edit- Wait, I forgot there were two more bows on either side. They probably weren't special either, though.

[Kreistor]

Immunities of Devils and Demons are fairly random. Some have immunity to fire and resistance to cold, others immunity to acid and resistance to fire, etc. In general, htough, if something looks like it's red and fiery, it's immune to fire. Whether Sabine has resitance, immunity, or no defense against cold is entirely unpredictable. To make it worse, all of the Giant's outsiders seem to be unique, and not drawn from the mold of the monster manual, further obscuring the possible defenses. So, we can't look at Sabine and say, "She gives an aura of cold, so she's immune to cold." This is a "wait and see" situation.

[Voyager_I]

Well ... I am a bit confused why Haley takes an Ice weapon, really.

For example, Undead are completely immune against Ice. Demons also have high resistance.

Overall its probably the weakest of all elemental damage types, because so many opponents are immune.

If your choices are between a bow that gives you a slightly longer range increment, a bow that is only marginally better than a feat you have already taken, a bow that gives you a negative level for holding it, or a bow that gives you +5 to hit and +5 to damage, then gives you another +1d6 to damage, and then gives you even more damage when you score a critical hit...well, which one are you going to snag? Sure, it's not Sonic damage, but at least it isn't Fire.

[Hydro Globus]

We don't know the to-hit-and-damage bonus (how many plusses, only I hate this expression) the other bows have, though we can assume that it's no greater than +5 (the non-epic limit IIRC).

[Thrall_Of_Ao]

In 3.0 the bow would have been great, in 3.5 it's not so great. Under 3.0 rules, any creature with damage reduction except vs. a specific metal (silver, iron etc) would take full damage from that metal or if the weapon had an enhancement bonus like a +1 sword. Some enemies had damage reduction unless the weapon had a minimum level of enhancement bonus.

In 3.5, if you don't have a weapon made of the correct type of metal then the damage is reduced regardless of what enhancement bonus might be present.

In correction, DR in 3.5 rules is not restricted to just special materials. It now includes both alignment based vulnerabilities, as well as, on rare occasions, specific damage types (piercing, slashing, blugeoning).
In addition, as is the case with Sabine (a Succubus by all accounts) includes the extremely important "or".
Meaning that a holy (good aligned) OR Cold Iron weapon would bypass her DR (both is even better).

Q:"Would this new frost bolt bow work on Sabine? I dunno, I'm not into D&D."

A: Kreistor explained this rather well. Going strictly by 3.5 D&D rules, resistances and immunities are varied. In general, Demons are generally fire oriented, while Devils are more commonly cold oriented. More a result of their plane of origin (and perhaps their alignment) than anything else.

3.5 Energy Resistance 101-
As a succubus, Sabine has (by the book) cold resistance 10. Damage reduction (per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)) does not apply to energy damage, so Sabines DR 10/cold iron or good would only partially prevent the bow and potential sneak attack damage (a +5 weapon, combined with the bow damage almost gaurantees that some of this damage would get through).

As Icy Burst weapons automatically act as frost weapons, the minimum cold damage alone on a critical hit would be 4, average would be 18 (1d6+3d10 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#icyBurst); in correction to RMS Oceanic's earlier post).
Chances are, Sabine would be ignore the cold damage most of the time, but would definitely feel it if she took a critical hit.


Breakdown: Since the average damage Haley would deal with said weapon without sneak attack, a critical, or the oh-so-possible mighty property would be 9 (with an additional 3 cold damage), she would/should wisely invest in Cold Iron arrows. :smallbiggrin:
She doesn't strike me as the kind of PC to rely on making lucky shots (which would total 65 maximum raw damage (36 cold, 29 "natural" - 10 DR & 10 Cold Resist. = an impressive 45 derived damage on the vaunted but rare critical hit).

-TOA

PS For the record, I myself didn't know that the Icy Burst enhancement acted automatically as Frost until I did the research on this post.
Additionally, I didn't know about 3.5 DR not working vs. energy until about a year ago (when I created a PC with DR infact).

[Hydro Globus]

(1d6+3d10 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#icyBurst); in correction to RMS Oceanic's earlier post).

2d10 is correct.

[Zevox]

2d6 is correct.
No, it isn't. Bonus die damage are never multiplied in a critical hit. That includes things like the frost and flaming effects, sneak attack, and so forth. The critical only multiplies the damage from your weapon's base damage die and your strength score/magical bonuses/other straight-number pluses. That's why the "Burst" effects have to specify the larger amounts for larger critical multipliers in their descriptions.

Zevox

[LuisDantas]

I ask again: what does Axiomatic mean?

Besides the "in game" meaning already explained, it also means "subject to Axioms". An Axiom is a logical and/or mathematical statement of fact. A "logical law", if you will. It is a name that reminds one of the Lawful mindset and worldview.

[Hydro Globus]

No, it isn't. Bonus die damage are never multiplied in a critical hit. That includes things like the frost and flaming effects, sneak attack, and so forth. The critical only multiplies the damage from your weapon's base damage die and your strength score/magical bonuses/other straight-number pluses. That's why the "Burst" effects have to specify the larger amounts for larger critical multipliers in their descriptions.

Zevox

Sorry I meant 2d10 (he corrected for 3d10 where I quoted). Edited.

[Blue Paladin]

2cp: RMS is right. The Burst deals 2d10 on a crit. By that same source just quoted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#icyBurst), some people seem to be missing the word "instead". To wit:

2x Burst weapons deal an extra +1d10 cold damage on a crit.
3x Burst weapons deal an extra +2d10 cold damage on a crit instead [of +1d10].
4x Burst weapons deal an extra +3d10 cold damage on a crit instead [of +1d10].

Damage on normal hit: 1d8 + 5 (enhancement) + StrMod + 1d6 cold
Damage on crit: 3d8 + 15 (enhancement) + 3*StrMod + 1d6 cold + 2d10 cold

Min damage on normal hit: 6+StrMod physical + 1 cold
Avg damage on normal hit: 9.5+StrMod physical + 3.5 cold
Max damage on normal hit: 13+StrMod physical + 6 cold

Min damage on crit: 18 + 3*(StrMod) physical + 3 cold
Avg damage on crit: 13.5 + 3*(StrMod) physical + 14.5 cold
Max damage on crit: 39 + 3*(StrMod) physical + 26 cold

Note that if it's not a mighty composite bow, then all those entries for StrMod will count as 0.

Sneak Attack damage (which is Haley's bread and butter) will add directly to whatever damage above is rolled, so even 10/cold iron + 10/cold is no guarantee of shrugging off an attack.

[fangthane]

<takes a series of calming deep breaths>

Undead are not, as a creature type, immune to cold.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm

Some undead are immune to cold, and some resist it, just as do some demons/devils. Not all.

Haley is a human rogue and thus, unless she's invested a feat in it (which, granted, is possible) can only use a shortbow untrained. I'd have to postulate, therefore, that the bow she snagged is, in fact, a shortbow rather than a longbow. That being the case, it does 1d6 base rather than 1d8 - but otherwise Blue Paladin's analysis is right on the money.

[Zevox]

Haley is a human rogue and thus, unless she's invested a feat in it (which, granted, is possible) can only use a shortbow untrained. I'd have to postulate, therefore, that the bow she snagged is, in fact, a shortbow rather than a longbow. That being the case, it does 1d6 base rather than 1d8 - but otherwise Blue Paladin's analysis is right on the money.
Haley herself has explicitly stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html) (2nd page, 2nd panel) that she uses a longbow. So almost certainly she did use a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow), yes, and equally almost certainly, between Pete being a master archer and her weapon preference, her new toy is a longbow rather than a shortbow.

Zevox

[tyckspoon]

Haley is a human rogue and thus, unless she's invested a feat in it (which, granted, is possible) can only use a shortbow untrained. I'd have to postulate, therefore, that the bow she snagged is, in fact, a shortbow rather than a longbow. That being the case, it does 1d6 base rather than 1d8 - but otherwise Blue Paladin's analysis is right on the money.

Haley's old bow was specifically referred to as a longbow in #454, and it's drawn consistently with the bow (possible bows, assuming some off-screen upgrades to reach her prior +3 bow) she's been using all along. It's not a particularly good choice for a rogue, but the evidence does support her having taken that feat.


Edit: Bah, this is what happens when you spend thirty minutes looking at other random stuff while doing a five-minute post.

[fangthane]

Dang, I'd completely forgotten about that... In that case I withdraw the caveat from Blue Paladin's analysis; it's almost-certainly correct. :smallbiggrin:

I may not be wrong terribly often, but let it not be said that I fail to acknowledge the fact, when I am. :smalltongue: