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View Full Version : [3.5] I need a mechanical power-house



Greymane
2008-12-15, 04:26 AM
In a game that was recently taken off hiatus, a player found that a their cohort made a better PC then then the current character, so we're dumping their character and re-doing the cohort mechanically to better work for the group. There's a few catches here, and I need to leech off of the collective genius that is this board if you fine ladies and gentlemen don't mind?

1. The major thing about this campaign? The DM is infamous for fudging rolls in favor of the NPCs and his DMPC. I need to help her build a character that relies on the DM's adjudication as little as possible. Batman Wizard (Which is what I'm currently playing) does very poorly here on account of random Spell Resistance and constant 'good' rolling the DM makes for the encounters' saves and what not. The DMPC has bouts of insanity, and should he have one and come even remotely close to harming us, he has been warned he will be killed without a second-thought. I think he's a gestalt Swordsage//Rogue.

2. The character needs to be either rogue-ish, or divine because the character is a faithful adherent to Leira in the FR from ancient Netheril. Preferably a mix of the two. So far I'm stuck at Spell-Thief and Cleric and can't find a good way to keep the DM out of her butt-kicking as little as possible. She's human, but it's viable for us to, say, use the mechanics of an Aasimar and just say we're human. The players are ECL 6 right now, and the character is CN.

Also: No obvious cheese is allowed. Candle of Invocation might squeak by, but it's cagey. Certainly no use-activated rings of continuous True Strike. He knows about that one.

Note: We have a great deal of houserules we use for our games. We tend to like high-powered characters.

All characters begin play with two extra feats, one just because, and we get our regional feat as a bonus. If you play a LA +0 race, you get a +2 to a stat of your choice (yes, this includes lesser planetouched), on that note, all LAs for creatures and templates has been reduced by at least one (work under that assumption, however LA+1 Templates do not get this reduction unless they have obvious setbacks).

We have access to just about every 3.5 book. Thanks in advance, guys. I appreciate any and all feedback.

Edit: I forgot two houserules that might be important. All characters have Weapon Finesse automatically, and if you take Two-weapon Fighting, you get each feat in the rest of the tree for free when you qualify for it.

BobVosh
2008-12-15, 04:34 AM
Why do you even want to play under this dm?

Anyway, look through SS. Look at tauric. Make tauric BA. Take class levels of rogue/whatever. Win.

Adumbration
2008-12-15, 04:38 AM
This isn't exactly overpowering, but it does rely as little as possible on DM's rolls.

Play a Warlock, and take Supernatural Transformation feat - from Savage Species - on your Eldritch Blast. Now you're attacking with a ranged touch attack that bypasses SR.

BobVosh
2008-12-15, 04:40 AM
Don't forget the awesome of hellfire warlocks if you do that

Greymane
2008-12-15, 04:46 AM
This isn't exactly overpowering, but it does rely as little as possible on DM's rolls.

Play a Warlock, and take Supernatural Transformation feat - from Savage Species - on your Eldritch Blast. Now you're attacking with a ranged touch attack that bypasses SR.

That's... an excellent suggestion, thank you. Now we just need a way to overcome his new love affair with displacement/blink etc... He's recently learned he can use that and while he rolls, we only hit when he wants us to.

Edit: Bob, while I like the idea of Tauric, it doesn't work for the character. Also, we play with this DM because he's a close friend of many years. He's a just... wrong, though, in his methods to create difficult and worthwhile combat.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 04:49 AM
That's... an excellent suggestion, thank you. Now we just need a way to overcome his new love affair with displacement/blink etc... He's recently learned he can use that and while he rolls, we only hit when he wants us to.Mageslayer, Complete Arcane. Take the feat tree up to Pierce Magical Concealment, which ignores all those niice miss chances. Not for a Warlock, though. Best with Meleers.

Adumbration
2008-12-15, 04:50 AM
You could take the Mage Slayer/Pierce Magical Concealment feat line from Complete Arcane. If memory serves, that should work against spell-based concealment.

The problem with this is that your CL decreases by 8. I'm not sure, but Practised Spellcaster might counter half of that.

Greymane
2008-12-15, 04:56 AM
I had forgotten about that tree completely, thanks! Though, would need to go full sneaky-type with no casting to make the best of it with that CL drawback.

Adumbration
2008-12-15, 05:15 AM
Hmm. I could be wrong, but not many of the warlock invocations actually use CL in terms of power. Most of the buffs are solid, with specified benefits and usually set duration of 24 hours. And let's face it, those that do use CL - such as the earthly grasp line, are really not worth it. The level of the invocation is also independent of the CL, I think.

Darrin
2008-12-15, 08:55 AM
That's... an excellent suggestion, thank you. Now we just need a way to overcome his new love affair with displacement/blink etc... He's recently learned he can use that and while he rolls, we only hit when he wants us to.


Blindfight + Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment. The last two feats will hose your caster level, but that's easily fixed by just not taking any invocations that rely on caster level. However, this is the ultimate concealment can-opener, and works extremely well for Warlocks who can cast darkness at will. Essentially, you give everything trying to attack you a 20% miss chance (or 50% when you get up to invisibility at will), and you ignore all concealment when you attack. Pick up the Blend into Shadows feat (Drow of the Underdark) and you can also hide in plain sight as early as level 1.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 09:26 AM
Just roll Czilla? Buffs don't require adjucation. DMM (Quicken) ftw!

With boosting CL cheese (karma bead, divine spell power), you can get +6 above normal (easily, more if you go out of your way for it), and your DM has to really blatantly cheat to beat that with an enemy caster.

How do you deal with displacement? Dispel Magic with +6 to the roll etc.

Really, the way you play the character is: "How do you deal with X?" "I have a spell for that!" Just do your research.

Person_Man
2008-12-15, 11:22 AM
Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) or Blinky the Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4666858&postcount=5).

On Homer: Basically any psionic build with Pierce Magical Concealment (which doesn't effect psionics) will work. Psionics aren't effected by SR, and PMC will bypass any magical miss chance. And Blind Fight (which PMC requires) gives you a second re-roll on any miss chance from concealment, regardless of its source.

On Blinky: He need not be a Ghost or a Shadow Sun Ninja. You just need Hide in Plain Sight and Darkstalker, which you can do a dozen different ways. That way no matter how abusive your DM is, you can always Hide when the going gets tough.

Also, there are plenty of spells out there that are No Save and No SR. In particular, Races of the Dragon has a bunch of new Power Word spells, and a PrC (the Dracolexi) which revolves around them. That makes it impossible for the DM to fudge the stats, unless he's lying about the enemy's base hit points.

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 11:45 AM
FS Conjourer5/Rogue1/USS10/AT4

Take Spont Divination from CChamp.
Take Immediate Metamagic (Abrupt Jaunt) from PHBII

Now...have Extended See Invis (20 min/CL) running at all times. Pearl of Power it back if you have to. That'll negate 1/2 of Blink. Now you just need to cast your own Blinking (or get a ring) and Sneak Attack with Orb of Force. Orb of Force is a [Force] effect...duh, so it ignores the other half of Blink, the ethereal part. Now you've negated almost all of his advantages, and you just have to hit his touch AC. Oh, and there is no SR on that either. If you don't like spending all of your 4th level slots to SA, you could pick up Transcendant Spell metamagic from CArcane. This'll allow ALL of your spells to affect the ethereal plane as if you were ethereal. Between See Invis and not being affected by the fact that he's semi-ethereal, you've negated ANY need to roll miss chance due to Blinking.

Now just power up some juicy SA with Hunter's Eye, and 1 shot him with a ~25d6 Orb of Force :P

And if he freaks out, she's got defenses. Abrupt Jaunt and Greater Mirror Image both protect against Very Bad Things(TM), and some other caster shananagans like having all 4 Heart of X (CMage) will make you immune to SA. Then just win.

The higher level you play with, the more powerful she is gonna be, and the better chance she is going to have against him. Even 1 level behind in casting, spells > not spells.

herrhauptmann
2008-12-15, 05:00 PM
This is more for wiz/sorc, but if the DM is being a douche and randomly giving things SR, take Arcane Mastery (Com Arc) letting you take 10 on Caster level checks. Add in spell penetration for a +2 on CL to beat SR. If you've crossclassed or something and are now missing some caster levels, take Practiced Spellcaster to boost your CL by 4 (max is either HD or ECL).

Seriously, just because he's your friend, don't put up with that crap.
1)don't just sit there and take him fudging rolls on you. Either fudge your own in response, or demand that he do his rolls in the open.
2)A high level group like this should have no reason to have a DMPC. If it does, and he's giving it lucky breaks all the time, your DM is doing no more than having a jack off session over how good his DMPC is doing.
3)If he's doing that for his DMPC because he's always DMing, then someone else should run an adventure for awhile.

Yukitsu
2008-12-15, 05:06 PM
Shadow craft mage. Shadow conjure orbs, don't tell him which spell your casting until after he makes the save, just say he needs to make a will and fort save. Alternate at random between phantasmal killer and orb of X. Why? Pass vs. the phantasmal killer, OK, whatever. Pass against the orb? Deal an extra 20% damage. Now he has to deal with random saves where fudging it stops being a legitimate means of thwarting you, as either result works in your favour. Lastly, transdimensional spell and/or true sight will stop those miss chances.

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 05:16 PM
Shadow craft mage. Shadow conjure orbs.

Shadow Orbs are kind of WTF because you are taking the most awesomesause thing about Orbs, the fact that they don't have SR, and you are making them have SR. If he's fudging anything, regardless of your SR roll, you probably won't make it. Also, how are you getting to 120% real with an Orb? Even with the Gnomish Illusionist ACF elevating an Orb from 0 to 5th gives you 50% real, SCM makes it 70%, and that one feat makes it 90%. Still 30% short of 120% real. I think this might have been an exaguration, but not a very good one. Plus...the really glory of Orbs are when you abuse multiple Metamagic feats applied to them. ScM can't really do that. You are better off summoning an Earth Elementel Monolith and then casting Heroics to give it Shocktrooper and watch it multipunt anything in your way. Seriously, who doesn't like multipunting?

Yukitsu
2008-12-15, 06:02 PM
Shadow Orbs are kind of WTF because you are taking the most awesomesause thing about Orbs, the fact that they don't have SR, and you are making them have SR. If he's fudging anything, regardless of your SR roll, you probably won't make it. Also, how are you getting to 120% real with an Orb? Even with the Gnomish Illusionist ACF elevating an Orb from 0 to 5th gives you 50% real, SCM makes it 70%, and that one feat makes it 90%. Still 30% short of 120% real. I think this might have been an exaguration, but not a very good one. Plus...the really glory of Orbs are when you abuse multiple Metamagic feats applied to them. ScM can't really do that. You are better off summoning an Earth Elementel Monolith and then casting Heroics to give it Shocktrooper and watch it multipunt anything in your way. Seriously, who doesn't like multipunting?

To be honest, you can pump SR above normal to the point where if it's BS enough, you can basically quit trying. If you focus on it, it you'll never fight something you can't bypass. 2 items increase it by 1 each, and 4 more by feats. Take ten all the time, and if you can't bypass, either don't play his game at all, becuase no matter what you do, you'll fail. Seriously, you buff a bunch, the DM just says you fail to hit his AC. You ignore magical concealment etc, he just has mundane for some reason. You're invisible, suddenly the monsters all have blindsight. If you want, do a baseline test. Magic missile the guy, and check his SR. If the DM is as poor at this game as he is, I'm betting he lets it through on a normal number, as it's not a real threat. Then once you have a baseline, take 10 and autokill it. As for 120%, 80% base, 20% class, 20% feat. And the point of this is to alternate pass/fail between shadow conjurations and phantasmal killers. If he fudges a fail when you cast phantasmal killer, he's dead.

Draz74
2008-12-15, 06:27 PM
How about a Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) with the Mage Slayer feat tree?

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 06:43 PM
True on accounts of cheating. Not matter how much you optimize, a cheater can always outcheat.


As for 120%, 80% base, 20% class, 20% feat. And the point of this is to alternate pass/fail between shadow conjurations and phantasmal killers. If he fudges a fail when you cast phantasmal killer, he's dead.

Where do you get the 80% base? The base is what the spell level is. An Orb is effectively a 5th level spell, cast from a 3rd level slot via Earth Spell + Practical MM(Heighten) That means 50% base reality. +40% for other features means its 90% real, which I stated before. Unless of course you are burning higher level spell slots. 80% base would be using a 6th level slot, and all you are really getting is +3 DC and +3 CL, which, on that spell, should already be pinned out at 15d6.

Yukitsu
2008-12-15, 06:44 PM
True on accounts of cheating. Not matter how much you optimize, a cheater can always outcheat.



Where do you get the 80% base? The base is what the spell level is. An Orb is effectively a 5th level spell, cast from a 3rd level slot via Earth Spell + Practical MM(Heighten) That means 50% base reality. +40% for other features means its 90% real, which I stated before. Unless of course you are burning higher level spell slots. 80% base would be using a 6th level slot, and all you are really getting is +3 DC and +3 CL, which, on that spell, should already be pinned out at 15d6.

I'm mixing up shadow craft mage with shadowcrafter is where I got it from. :smalltongue: You need shades to do it, but everyone likes shades. :smallcool:

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 07:25 PM
Shadowcraft Mage spontaneously casting Miracles in level 8 & 0 slots with the spells coming back constantly though, now that's something. CL too high for Spell Resistance to matter, use spells without saves, wreck places. You could also pull off the normal Incantatrix-stuff and have all your defenses up 24/7, still keep Abrupt Jaunt and use the standard Astral Projection from your locked plane along with Simulacrums and what-have-yous.

Flickerdart
2008-12-15, 07:38 PM
Yeah, it's pretty much just down to whether you want to play a character who doesn't care about fudging because he doesn't hit things that need rolls, or someone who wants to explicitly show the DM for the cheater he is. The last one appeals to me more (since the first can still be violated by plane-shifting encounters above CR that teleport into their Magnificent Mansion). Magic Missile for baseline SR and then point-blank annihilation will only work once, after that the DM is going to fudge for the Missile, too.

Seems like Pierce Magical Concealment Warlock for the first option or the Phantasmal Killer/Shadow Orb trick for the second are the best ways to do this. But have you considered not doing anything at all? The DM won't fudge rolls against his own DMPC. Stand back and let him hog his own action...when he realizes that he's pretty much playing with himself, he'll stop. This is going to be a more effective tactic if you either caught him fudging against your post-Magic Missile spell or keep missing even with the Flaming Homer's mighty penetration power, which, as I believe, always attacks against AC10, which can't be fudged. Touch Flat-Footed AC is always 10. When either of these things happens, say your character develops a psychological condition at witnessing things that are impossible, and would rather leave the fighting to the "favoured one of the gods" with whom luck seems to run, AKA the DMPC.

monty
2008-12-15, 07:40 PM
Touch Flat-Footed AC is always 10.

Unless they have a deflection bonus, or a size bonus, or are a monk, or any of several other abilities that apply to flat-footed touch.

Flickerdart
2008-12-15, 07:42 PM
Unless they have a deflection bonus, or a size bonus, or are a monk, or any of several other abilities that apply to flat-footed touch.
Size bonus can't be fudged. As for everything else, I'm pretty sure Homer handles those as well, though I'd have to double-check.

Or maybe it's not Homer I'm thinking off. Definitely some guy that uses the Pyrokineticist 1 dip for the lash, though.

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 07:45 PM
Touch Flat-Footed AC is always 10.

Not true. I've run multiple characters with Flat-Footed Touch AC in the 40s. All Monk-style AC bonuses still work, as does Deflection. Unarmed Swordsage/Fist of the Forests gets Wis and Con to the Flat-Footed Touch AC, and in addition they can have Deflection. Further, any incorporeals can add their Charisma to the Deflection, not to mention that PCs can boost Deflection quite a bit. In fact, in addition to creatures that are simply immune to being Flat-Footed, e.g. Dragon with Scintillating Scales can easily have its Flat-Footed Touch AC in the 40s.

EDIT: Woah, Ninja-responded.

Flickerdart
2008-12-15, 07:47 PM
Just because I'm terribly wrong doesn't mean his DM knows that. :smallfrown: