4e Class Preview: The Invoker

[Athaniar]

A new class is previewed, and even us without subscriptions can still read what it's about in general: (Link) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20081215)

It is set to appear in the Player's Handbook II, according to the main page.

For those who can't access the site:

The Invoker


"The only thing stronger than my faith is the fire I use to burn away those who stand against the will of the gods."

Role: Controller. You invoke the power of a god to blast your foes from a distance, leave them unable to defend themselves, and scatter them to the four winds. Depending on your choice of class features and powers, you lean toward either leader or striker as a secondary role.
Power Source: Divine. You practice an ancient form of divine magic, wielding the power that the gods themselves used in their battle against the primordials.
Key Abilities: Wisdom, Constitution, Intelligence

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implements: Rods, staffs
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 4
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution modifier

Trained Skills: Religion. From the class skills list below, choose three more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Arcana (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Religion (Int)

Class Features: Channel Divinity, Divine Covenant, Ritual Casting


Discuss! I, for one, think it looks interesting. Anyone with a subscription who can comment on the abilities?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hmm... Paladin Defense Boosts... on a Controller? :smallconfused:

Bringing back the clerical rods, good.

But what is this class doing? Another 3-in-1 deal? Like the Druid, perhaps? Or more Ranger-y?

Pah, I need more information to do more than half-assed speculating. Stupid Great Wall of Content. :smallyuk:

[RPGuru1331]

Darnit. Where's the good old fashioned smiting when you need it? When's the Divine Striker coming any way? :smalltongue:

[Oracle_Hunter]

Darnit. Where's the good old fashioned smiting when you need it? When's the Divine Striker coming any way? :smalltongue:

Well, this dude is a half-striker, so I guess you can see what Divine Striking will look like.

If you could see the powers, of course :smalltongue:

[Muyten]

The Avenger class is mentioned a couple of times in the article as well as the Deva race...I'm guessing the Avenger might be the Divine Striker you are looking for.

[KillianHawkeye]

I wonder if these Devas will be the new Aasimars?

[hamishspence]

I suspect so- they got mentioned in Player's Guide to Faerun- lesser allies to the Mulhorandi avatars- angels incarnated in mortal form rather than deities.

[Lord_Ventnor]

The flavor for Invokers is that rather than being invested with powers by a church like a Paladin, Cleric, or an Avenger (which is probably also appearing in PHB II), they get their powers from a direct experience with their patron god.

They're also more likely to venerate the entire pantheon: they have one patron, but they see every god as allies in the struggle in the war against the forces of chaos. Yes, even Bane and Gruumsh (although they're not above trying to put a stop to machinations by evil gods if they must).

As power powers, they have some area bursts, some powers that targets several enemies at once, a utility wall power that works to help allies instead being detrimental to enemies, and they also have one daily power in the preview that lets them summon an angel. It has the as-of-yet unseen Summoning keyword, so how it exactly works has yet to be seen.

[Kurald Galain]

You know, I keep wondering whether hiding their preview material serves to
(1) draw more people into D&D Insider, or
(2) draw less people into buying the PHB2

[Artanis]

I'm guessing that WotC thinks #1, but will wind up with #2.

[Draz74]

Hmmmm, so 4e is up to ...

Defender
Fighter (m) (secondary: striker)
Paladin (d) (secondary: leader)
Swordmage (a)
Warden (p)

Striker
Rogue (m)
Ranger (m)
Warlock (a) (secondary: controller)
Barbarian (p) (secondary: defender or leader)
Avenger (d)

Leader
Cleric (d)
Warlord (m) (secondary: defender)
Artificer (a)
Bard (a)
Shaman (p)

Controller
Wizard (a)
Sorcerer (a)
Druid (p) (secondary: leader or striker)
Invoker (d) (secondary: leader or striker)

... with italicized entries being widely-suspected, but as yet unconfirmed classes.

Am I missing anything (official)? I have seven eight PHB2 classes listed, which is a strange number for them to include, so I think I'm forgetting one.

If this is all correct, it means every Power Source/Role combination will be filled when the PHB2 is out, except for Martial Controller. (And any power sources beyond the four that are out.)

[Draz74]

You know, I keep wondering whether hiding their preview material serves to
(1) draw more people into D&D Insider, or
(2) draw less people into buying the PHB2

Yeah ... it seems like the whole lure-people-into-subscribing thing would work better if more of the community were solidly sold on 4e in the first place.

[Lord_Ventnor]

I believe the Sorcerer is supposed to make his 4E debut in PHB II.

[Draz74]

I believe the Sorcerer is supposed to make his 4E debut in PHB II.

*facepalm*

Adding into earlier post ...

[Jera]

I cannot look at the OP link so forgive my ignorance, but do are the Invoker powers more like the clerics or the wizards?

IE
Are their burst/blast abilities each enemy in burst/blast, or each creature in burst/blast?

Do their powers give allies bonuses while hurting their enemies?

[Artanis]

As long as you're color-coding things, why not put the unknown (italicized in the post) ones as grey? Combining that with italicizing would probably work even better than it does now.

[Kurald Galain]

Stuff
Swordmage is secondary controller.
Rogue probably counts as secondary controller, too (they have a reasonable amount of area effects and status conditions).
Barbarian is secondary defender, most likely.
Cleric is seconary controller.
Wizard is secondary striker.
Either invoker or (probably) druid may be secondary defender.

Confirmed power sources include psionic (psion, of course), elemental, shadow (illusionist, necromancer), and ki (monk).

[Hzurr]

Confirmed power sources include psionic (psion, of course), elemental, shadow (illusionist, necromancer), and ki (monk).

None of which will be seen til at least the PHB 3. The cover of the PHB 2 mentions only arcane, primal and divine power sources, and I doubt they'll introduce any new power source except in the PHB's.

Aside from Artificer, are there any other classes rumored to appear in the Eberron stuff?

[Draz74]

As long as you're color-coding things, why not put the unknown (italicized in the post) ones as grey? Combining that with italicizing would probably work even better than it does now.
Because the colors represent the source books. The currently "suspected" classes are all in the PHB2, therefore they're colored the same as the confirmed PHB2 classes.


Swordmage is secondary controller.
Rogue probably counts as secondary controller, too (they have a reasonable amount of area effects and status conditions).
Cleric is seconary controller.
Wizard is secondary striker.
I'll add these if other people, more experienced in 4e than me, confirm them. BUt some of them seem like not-widely-held opinions.

The rogue, in particular, seems controversial. I've seen the exact same argument made for the ranger instead ...

And while Wizard certainly isn't a Defender or Leader, it's quite possible that some classes don't have secondary roles.


Barbarian is secondary defender, most likely.
Either invoker or (probably) druid may be secondary defender.
What I wrote for these three classes is what official preview material states. The "or" in their secondary roles doesn't represent guessing; it represents that these classes can allegedly fulfill either secondary role depending on their build.


Confirmed power sources include psionic (psion, of course), elemental, shadow (illusionist, necromancer), and ki (monk).

Right, but I'm not concerning myself with anything more than a year away. Not to mention that, even when we know what some of these classes will probably be named (e.g. psion, monk), we don't really have any clue what roles they'll have. They could totally pull a fast one on us and make the Monk a Defender (instead of Striker) and the Psion a Striker (instead of Controller).

[Hzurr]

They could totally pull a fast one on us and make the Monk a Defender (instead of Striker) and the Psion a Striker (instead of Controller).

Or they could be awesome, and make the monk a controller. But I believe that it's been stated that the monk will be a striker.

[Draz74]

Well, personally, my guess is that they'll break the Monk and similar ideas into multiple Ki-Power classes in different roles. Kinda like the Druid, Warden, and Shaman in the PHB2 are allegedly three different "aspects" of what the 3e Druid was.

It's really anyone's guess which of the Ki Power's roles will end up with the actual name, "Monk." (They could have made the exact same three classes for the Druid concept, but named the Controller "Shaman" and the Leader "Druid", and nobody would know the difference.) Yeah, the designers have said Striker for the Monk, but that's not neccessarily the same designers who will work on the PHBX and actually write the Monk class; they're just saying that the current Monk people know about is closest to being a Striker.

[mikeejimbo]

Divine Controller? That's practically what I'm playing now! (Except as a Cleric :smalltongue:)

Totally playing an Invoker when it comes out.

[NPCMook]

Wasn't the initial teaser of the PHB II classes:

Barbarian
Bard
Druid
Invoker
S
S
T
W

Leaving the rest blank because they are still unconfirmed, then again this is like 6 month old information...

[Starsinger]

Hmmmm, so 4e is up to ...

Color coded list

If this is all correct, it means every Power Source/Role combination will be filled when the PHB is out, except for Martial Controller. (And any power sources beyond the four that are out.)

If you cut swordmage (and artificer) out due to not being core or expanded core, it's a different scenario.

Primal and Divine seem to have 1 of each role, whereas Arcane is Striker, Leader, Controller, Controller. And Martial is Defender, Striker, Striker, Leader.

[potatocubed]

I've skipped the other comments. I'm just happy for more controller options than 'Wizard'. :smallsmile:

[RebelRogue]

Or they could be awesome, and make the monk a controller. But I believe that it's been stated that the monk will be a striker.
Really? In my mind the monk has always been a (debuffing) controller.

[Ealstan]

Wasn't the initial teaser of the PHB II classes:

Barbarian
Bard
Druid
Invoker
S
S
T
W



Yes, that was the teaser leaked 6 months ago. There will be no 'T' in PHB2; the 'T' slot is actually 'A' for Avenger, a divine striker. This was confirmed by people looking at Amazon.com. They put up the pages for Power Cards for all the PHB2 classes, and avenger is definitely in.

My guess is that the class was originally Templar, but that has changed in development, possibly due to Dark Sun being considered as a main Campaign Setting.

[Lord_Ventnor]

All the classes in PHB II have been all but confirmed:

Avenger
Barbarian
Bard
Druid
Invoker
Warden
Shaman*
Sorcerer**

* Mentioned a while back. No actual confirmation, but seems very likely.
** Mentioned in the title of Arcane Power, which makes it likely to appear in PHB II

[skywalker]

I'll add these if other people, more experienced in 4e than me, confirm them. BUt some of them seem like not-widely-held opinions.

The rogue, in particular, seems controversial. I've seen the exact same argument made for the ranger instead ...

And while Wizard certainly isn't a Defender or Leader, it's quite possible that some classes don't have secondary roles.

Right, but I'm not concerning myself with anything more than a year away. Not to mention that, even when we know what some of these classes will probably be named (e.g. psion, monk), we don't really have any clue what roles they'll have. They could totally pull a fast one on us and make the Monk a Defender (instead of Striker) and the Psion a Striker (instead of Controller).

Ok, I will confirm some stuff he said:
Swordmage is secondary controller.
Rogue probably counts as secondary controller, too (they have a reasonable amount of area effects and status conditions).
Barbarian is secondary defender, most likely.
Cleric is seconary controller.
Wizard is secondary striker.
Either invoker or (probably) druid may be secondary defender.

Confirmed power sources include psionic (psion, of course), elemental, shadow (illusionist, necromancer), and ki (monk).

Wizard is not officially defined as secondary striker, but it plays that way, especially the "war wizard" idea. Vote for that. Cleric has several controller type powers, altho most of them are suboptimal. Rogue has plenty of slide and movement powers, it really becomes a question of whether you think the controller primarily kills minions (which doesn't sound right, but is what WotC seems to believe) or alters the battlefield/positioning. If it's the former, then no (and I can see the meaning behind the ranger... maybe. Honestly, saying ranger is a secondary controller doesn't seem to smart to me. They're the purest striker, IMO, except for scimitar dance). If it's the latter, the rogue certainly is a secondary controller.

No idea about swordmage. Don't really see druid intended as a secondary defender, but they might turn out that way in practice with high con, etc.

[Vortling]

This great firewall of content is becoming increasingly annoying. It's nice to see that there will be a divine striker. I've been hoping for one for a while now. I'm sure the invoker will be underwhelming with the summoning powers being little more than fluff tacked onto preexisting controlling powers.

[Gralamin]

This great firewall of content is becoming increasingly annoying. It's nice to see that there will be a divine striker. I've been hoping for one for a while now. I'm sure the invoker will be underwhelming with the summoning powers being little more than fluff tacked onto preexisting controlling powers.

Summoning powers are not explained by the preview since we don't have access to the summoning keyword.

The one Summoning power shown was a daily, and created an Angel of fire. Notably it has its own speed, suggesting it has its own actions, and it seems you can issue Special actions to it (Like a burst attack for a standard action, or an opportunity attack action). Whether such actions take up both of your actions, or just yours, remains to be seen.

Edit: I suppose I could actually tell people about the rest of the powers, I'll type some stuff up.

[Oracle_Hunter]

This great firewall of content is becoming increasingly annoying. It's nice to see that there will be a divine striker. I've been hoping for one for a while now. I'm sure the invoker will be underwhelming with the summoning powers being little more than fluff tacked onto preexisting controlling powers.

I wouldn't be so sure. Either it will produce summons like the Cleric's (ex: Guardian of Faith) or it can summon a Beastmaster Ranger-like celestial being with certain characteristics.

I think both of those are pretty sweet.

EDIT:
Nice! Someone actually has access!

[Gralamin]

Class Features:
Channel divinity makes a return. The Invoker's Rebuke undead is very similar (though not identical) to turn undead. They are about the same ability really. In addition, you get another Channel divinity ability (and class feature) based on the divine covenant you choose: Basically the deal you made with your god.

The covenant of Preservation is you swearing to defend the faithful and those who fight the gods' enemies. You gain Preserver's rebuke Channel Divinity (Essentially increasing your chance to hit one thing per encounter), and gain the ability to slide an ally within 10 squares 1 square whenever you use a divine encounter/daily power.

Covenant of Wrath however means your after the god's enemies. You gain the Armor of wrath channel divinity (Which lets you automatically deal damage to something that hit you), and when you use an encounter or daily divine power, you add 1 to the damage roll for each enemy you attack with the power.

They also have rituals, coming with two rituals + Hand of fate. Once per day, you can use Hand of Fate without expending components.

At Wills:
5 At-wills are shown in the preview. Avenging Light and Sun Strike can be used as a ranged basic attack, both with less range then magic missle (But doing considerably more damage). Avenging Light attacks fort, and deals more damage when a bloodied ally is close to the target. Sun strike attacks reflex and lets you slide the target.

They also have Divine Bolts, a twin-strike like power, Grasping Shards which deals low amount of damage, but slows creatures in a burst. The last power, Vanguard's Lightning is a burst that deals additional damage when the hit creature takes an OA.

Level 1 Encounters
Four level 1 encounters are avaible. Astral Terror is good for keeping enemies away from you. Blades of Astral Fire is good for attacking enemies while buffing your allies AC. Spear of the Inquisitor immobilizes a creature. Thunder of Judgment is a versatile little power, allowing you to attack three enemies, but dealing more damage when you attack a single creature. It also dazes creatures it hits, and depending on your class feature choice, may push them.

Level 1 Dailies
Four dailies are avaible. Summon Angel of Fire I mentioned in my above post. Angelic Echelon lets you make attacking wihin a significant area of you hurt. Binding Invocation of Chains slows everything in a close burst 10, but deals no damage. Finnally, Purging Flame puts some ongoing damage on a creature.

Level 2 utilites
Five of these. Divine Call lets you pull on one or two allies. Emissary of the Gods helps with one Intimidate or Diplomacy check, and counts as two successes on a skill challenge. Shroud of Awe helps with intimidate, and allows creatures in “500 feet” (100 squares I guess) hear you clearly. Shroud of Warning Gives an untyped bonus to group initative, and Wall of Light lets you make a wall that increases your allies AC, as well as giving them temporary HP.

Level 3 encounters
Finnally, there are four powers here. Really only three though, because Sun Hammer is a horrible power, a burst 1 vs fort, that deals 2 extra damage if any blooodied allies are in the burst. It deals very little damage. Chains of Carceri is a burst that deals some damage and slows creatures in the area. Glyph of Imprisonment is similar, but deals five damage if the creature decides to move instead. Finnally, Offering of Justice is a very effective power against solos or elites, Making it take damage if it attacks on its turn, or gain 5 temp hp if it chooses not to attack.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Thanks Gralamin!

Y'know, even though much of WotC's 4E stuff is pretty sloppy, I've been liking the class previews they've been throwing out. I really like the "free Ritual" class feature (and I may homebrew a free ritual for Clerics and Wizards at this rate...) and Armor of Wrath sounds like a fun feature to work with a Dwarven MC Fighter. What can I say? I like auto-hit powers :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

Avenging Light and Sun Strike can be used as a ranged basic attack, both with less range then magic missle (But doing considerably more damage).

Grasping Shards ... slows creatures in a burst.

Spear of the Inquisitor immobilizes a creature. Thunder of Judgment ... also dazes creatures it hits, and depending on your class feature choice, may push them.

Binding Invocation of Chains slows everything in a close burst 10

Okay, is it just me, or is this significantly more powerful than what a wizard gets at first level? Codex creep, anyone?

[KKL]

Seems like Wizards are the class that the designers cut their teeth on (is that the proper analogy?) when designing Controllers, and sorta testing their limits and such.

[Kurald Galain]

Seems like Wizards are the class that the designers cut their teeth on (is that the proper analogy?)
That depends on what you're trying to say. Do you mean they did well? Did poorly? Tried something new? Hurt themselves?

[Starsinger]

I rather wonder if Wizard powers will be significantly buffed in the Arcane Power book? But as it is, I don't particularly care for the Wizard class, so while I take note that new class > base class, I'm not bothered by this exact scenario. The Invoker sounds pretty sweet.

[KKL]

That depends on what you're trying to say. Do you mean they did well? Did poorly? Tried something new? Hurt themselves?

Trying out how exactly to make controllers controllery, is what I meant to say.

[OneFamiliarFace]

Okay, is it just me, or is this significantly more powerful than what a wizard gets at first level? Codex creep, anyone?

It looks like, for the most part, the invoker will deal less damage than the wizard. For example, the chains power that slows everything in a burst is a daily that, unless I am mistaken, doesn't deal any damage.

The invoker's controls right now also seem to do with immobilizing and slowing as they attack, whereas the wizard's seem to be more area effects and what not, which block off or make dangerous certain areas of the map.

But that is almost total conjecture given that that invoker is only worked out to level 3.

[Charity]

I dunno, some of the powers look an itsey bit more powerful, but the range of effects is much narrower... also they don't look anything like the healers even a paladin is, so don't hope for much of that from the class.
Controller with striker overtones seems to be the case, there is at least a good encounter power for the protector side

Blades of Astral Fire
Encounter 1
Area burst 1 within 10 squares
Wis vs. Ref, 1d6 + Wis mod radiant dam.
Each ally in the burst gains a +2 bonus to AC until the end of your next turn.
Covenant of Preservation- the bonus to AC equals 1 + your Int mod.

[KKL]

Controller with striker overtones seems to be the case, there is at least a good encounter power for the protector side


Role: Controller. You invoke the power of a god to blast your foes from a distance, leave them unable to defend themselves, and scatter them to the four winds. Depending on your choice of class features and powers, you lean toward either leader or striker as a secondary role.

Emphasis mine.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I rather wonder if Wizard powers will be significantly buffed in the Arcane Power book? But as it is, I don't particularly care for the Wizard class, so while I take note that new class > base class, I'm not bothered by this exact scenario. The Invoker sounds pretty sweet.

This actually raises an interesting point.

When WotC figured out they had screwed up a class in 3E, they had to go out and release a new class that served the same role if they wanted to "fix" the class without creating a new edition. Now, WotC can "fix" their classes just by adding more powers for a class to select. So far none of the class features themselves are gimped, so all WotC has to do is release new & better powers to rebalance classes.

Well, in theory anyhow. In practice people hate having to shell out money to get a "working" class, and it looks like Codex Creep to everyone (including me). Now, if WotC had a working DDI, they could actually adjust classes in a coherent fashion; reshuffling the power selection online instead of forcing everyone to buy lots of books. I, for one, would probably spring for a subscription if it got me access to the whole 4E Library, updated with current errata. And if I could upload said library on a Kindle, so that I could actually use it while gaming.

Man, that'd be sweet.

[Oslecamo]

This actually raises an interesting point.

When WotC figured out they had screwed up a class in 3E, they had to go out and release a new class that served the same role if they wanted to "fix" the class without creating a new edition. Now, WotC can "fix" their classes just by adding more powers for a class to select. So far none of the class features themselves are gimped, so all WotC has to do is release new & better powers to rebalance classes.


Alternative class features(cough chaos monk cough).
New stronger feats(cough mage slayer chain cough).
New uses for skills(cough knowledge to get bonus to attack and damage).
Prestige classes(cough sublime chord cough).

Yeah, releasing new classes was certainly the only way to go. It's not like every other book hadn't got powerfull feats, spells and prestige classes for players to strenghten the older classes.

[Charity]

Emphasis mine.

Yes that is what it says but having looked at the powers weigh the previous power against its rival.

Thunder of Judgment
Encounter 1
Ranged 10
Target: One, two, or three creatures
Wis vs. Fort, 1d6 + Wis mod thunder damage, or 2d6 + Wis mod thunder damage if you target only one creature. In addition, the target is dazed until the end of your next turn.
Covenant of Wrath- You also push the target a number of squares equal to your Con mod.

I think the Wrath covenant looks stronger, especially as (so far) the leader one seems short on healing... I know it is early days etc but my point was that much like the swordmage this class seems to weigh in more heavily on one side than the other.
I prob wasn't clear... that is my way I fear, but I was saying that the benifit on Blades of Astral Fire for having the appropriate covenant was OK but not as good as that for the more aggressive covenant.

@V cue comparison to online gaming patches in 5... 4...:smallsigh:

[Oracle_Hunter]

Alternative class features(cough chaos monk cough).
New stronger feats(cough mage slayer chain cough).
New uses for skills(cough knowledge to get bonus to attack and damage).
Prestige classes(cough sublime chord cough).

Yeah, releasing new classes was certainly the only way to go. It's not like every other book hadn't got powerfull feats, spells and prestige classes for players to strenghten the older classes.

Yes, WotC tried to fix classes with new sourcebooks, but it was a very clunky fix, and even so, it did kill off several core classes (Fighter, Monk, Paladin) in the process.

Alternative class features and PrCs did much to dilute the concept of a "class" and could be needlessly confusing to the uninitiated. Feats-as-fixes just limited the ability to make reasonable builds, since feat slots were scarce unless you started out high enough to already have taken the appropriate chains.

Worst of all, in each and every case you really needed to have a stack of books with you at all times if you wanted to play a really "fixed" character. Feature descriptions were often long and conflicting, and trying to remember how all of these things stuck together was taxing to say the least. In a 3.5 game I'm playing, our party cleric has no less than 4 books next to her at all times, just to get through a single combat. IIRC they are the PHB (naturally), MM (for summons), Spell Comprehendum (spells), and Complete Divine (feats). This is not an elegant solution.

Powers, though? These are inherently modular; no one set of powers defines a given class, nor do they require thumbing through a stack of books to figure out what the heck you can do. Any given power fits neatly on an index card, and every player can carry around their own stack and never crack a book to play. Much neater.

Yes, as expansions come out and people want new feats, PPs, and EDs they will start collecting books too, but it will not be in order to "fix" their class. At worst they will need to comb through these books when designing their character in order to play a "fixed" character, but they should not need a stack of books just to make it through a single combat.

Summary
3E could not find an elegant way to "fix" classes in Core. They were forced to either invent new PrCs that were nearly mandatory, introduce feat chains that were laborious to complete, or publish dozens of alternate class features which diluted the concept of "class" to almost nothing. It worked, in a sense, but it was not neat nor easy to deal with.

4E, thanks to segregation of most class abilities in the modular power system, can be much cleaner. Any given power can be written down, in full, on an index card, and a player needs nothing more than their character sheet, a PHB, and a stack of power cards to run their characters. New powers from new books can be added in or taken out easily, and there is no need to torture the concept of "class" in order to fix what is clearly broken.

I approve of efficiency and neatness. 4E's method of correcting classes is far more elegant than 3E's.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes that is what it says but having looked at the powers weigh the previous power against its rival.

Thunder of Judgment
Okay, that is what I mean by codex creep. Targeting three creatures anywhere in a long range, and damage and dazing and a multi-square push effect, for a level-1 encounter?

I mean, the best the wizard can manage is targeting a bunch of packed-together creatures, with friendly fire, for either a push or a slow (and dazing is stronger than slowing).

[Charity]

I'm afraid I sorta agree with you Kurald... (I know try not to think about it too much) but (ah here we go) If you are going to have 2 controllers, you will have some powers at some levels that are superior, it is inevitable and is not necessarily indicative of 'codex creep'.
Also I have noticed in the powers, less of a spectrum of damage types and effects available to the Invoker... so I think I'll keep an open mind till the full class comes out.
When swordmage appeared everyone yelled about 'codex creep' and has since become fairly widely established that they are the weakest defending class... especially since Martial power has augmented the fighters *chucks fuel on the fire*

[KKL]

Yes that is what it says but having looked at the powers weigh the previous power against its rival.

4/5 AC is nothing to sneeze at. And it targets Reflex, too. In addition, ToJ targets Fort, which is a downside for it, since Fort tends to be the higher of NADs.

[RPGuru1331]

When swordmage appeared everyone yelled about 'codex creep' and has since become fairly widely established that they are the weakest defending class... especially since Martial power has augmented the fighters *chucks fuel on the fire*

Are you implying that we should wait to have a finished product on our hands before judging relative power levels? :smallconfused:

[Charity]

4*/5 AC is nothing to sneeze at. And it targets Reflex, too. In addition, ToJ targets Fort, which is a downside for it, since Fort tends to be the higher of NADs.

True, and not so true
Fort is a higher generally at mid to high levels, but at low level (when most opponants are goblins/kobolds and their weasley ilk) I reckon that fort can be a favourable defence to target, and this is a lvl 1 power...
also the fact (as Kurald pointed out) that you can target 3 widely spaced individual and daze them is really quite strong

*I think 4 is all you could reasonably expect from a secondary stat... still pretty good I agree.


Are you implying that we should wait to have a finished product on our hands before judging relative power levels? :smallconfused:

Heavens! what was I thinking... sorry.

[KKL]

*I think 4 is all you could reasonably expect from a secondary stat.
Wis/Int race. 18/18 starting stats. Aasimar are speculated to be Int/Wis from the article, thus 5 power bonus to AC.


also the fact (as Kurald pointed out) that you can target 3 widely spaced individual and daze them is really quite strong
I never said it was weak, I simply said that a 4/5 power bonus to AC was nothing to sneeze about, and the fact that it targetted Reflex was a bonus to ToJ's fort.

[Kurald Galain]

If you are going to have 2 controllers, you will have some powers at some levels that are superior, it is inevitable and is not necessarily indicative of 'codex creep'.
True enough, but if one of the first low-level previews is that much stronger, that does not bode well.



Also I have noticed in the powers, less of a spectrum of damage types and effects available to the Invoker...
Good point, but I have not so far seen damage types make much of a difference really, other than "radiant is good vs undead, and lots of things are fire resistant".


When swordmage appeared everyone yelled about 'codex creep' and has since become fairly widely established that they are the weakest defending class...
Link please? I'd like to read some discussion on the relative power levels of defenders (although I agree that e.g. the lots-of-temp-HP-fighter from MP is stronger than the swordmage).

[Charity]

True enough, but if one of the first low-level previews is that much stronger, that does not bode well.

Agreed, but I'm optimistic.


Good point, but I have not so far seen damage types make much of a difference really, other than "radiant is good vs undead, and lots of things are fire resistant".

Again, I agree, though the varied status effects available to a wizard are handy whatever level the resistances come more into play at higher levels... and the wizard does have a spellbook to take into consideration.


Link please? I'd like to read some discussion on the relative power levels of defenders (although I agree that e.g. the lots-of-temp-HP-fighter from MP is stronger than the swordmage).

well this is the defender section of the wizards site (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=886)
here are the optimization 'all stars' (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1121998)
unfortunately Swordmage came out a while ago so the clamour has died down a bit, iff you wade through some old threads you'll eventually dig up what you want.

interesting post by Mike Mearls


When comparing at-wills for controllers, the wizard has some issues. His at-wills focus more on damage than control. The consensus is that controllers need a little more, well, control in their at-wills than we've handed out so far.

Vanguard's lightning is what I'd see as a baseline controller at-will, with scorching burst slightly *below* baseline. That little extra bit on vanguard's lightning is precisely the kind of thing that makes controllers go - they limit/mess up the enemy's plans.

Now, this may seem pretty annoying - WotC released stuff that was too weak! However, I think it's actually a strength of the meta systems of 4e. We've never before had the ability to so clearly compare classes/roles and, when necessary, make adjustments. It's a lot easier to listen to feedback, gather hard data, and make comparisons between powers when we have a unified power scale.

The interesting thing is that this issue really only rests in the at-wills. Encounter and daily powers are fine for the wizard.

The controller role is perhaps the one that took the longest to really develop. There's a reason why there's only one in the PH. For a long while, the role was defined by its ability to attack multiple foes. That definition never sat well, since it clearly steps on other roles and archetypes. We'd never want to prevent rangers from firing multiple arrows, or a fighter from striking everyone adjacent to him.

Over time, the controller definition morphed into the opposite of the leader. If the leader sets up his allies and encourages teamwork, the controller screws up his enemies and hinders their ability to work together. The area damage aspect of the controller does play into that (it makes bunching up a bad idea) but in practice controllers need a little more to embrace their role.

It's a subtle point, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think a PH 1 wizard is crippled compared to the PH 2 classes, but it is a sign of the subtle adjustments we're likely to make to the game going forward.

[Oslecamo]

4E, thanks to segregation of most class abilities in the modular power system, can be much cleaner. Any given power can be written down, in full, on an index card, and a player needs nothing more than their character sheet, a PHB, and a stack of power cards to run their characters. New powers from new books can be added in or taken out easily, and there is no need to torture the concept of "class" in order to fix what is clearly broken.

I approve of efficiency and neatness. 4E's method of correcting classes is far more elegant than 3E's.

So let me see if I understand your definition of "elegant": Just because they changed a number in the title of the game, sudenly you got the willpower to write down the relevant abilities of your character into tiny pieces of paper?

My this system must definetely be presented to government. Students will sudenly be willing to study and make their homeworks just if you present them with a new shiny set of books with a diferent cover but with same quantity of material in the inside as the old books.

Because unless your cleric has found some way to prepare a thousand spells at once, there's no reason why he can't write down in tiny pieces of paper the stats of the monsters he wants to summon and the spells he has prepared.

EDIT:Heck, it's not even like feats and spells aren't carefully separated and organized in 3e, ready to be easily copied.

[Charity]

Ok guys please lets not stray into all too familiar territory here, I like this thread.



Wis/Int race. 18/18 starting stats. Aasimar are speculated to be Int/Wis from the article, thus 5 power bonus to AC.

OK but speculation aside...


I never said it was weak, I simply said that a 4/5 power bonus to AC was nothing to sneeze about, and the fact that it targetted Reflex was a bonus to ToJ's fort.
I do in the most part agree, the AC bonus is good, but not as good...
So you get a more complete picture, and to further muddy the waters

the covenant powers

Covenant of Preservation-

Covenant Manifestation: When you use a divine encounter or daily attack power on your turn, you can slide an ally within 10 squares of you 1 square.

Channel Divinity: Preserver's Rebuke encounter
Immediate Reaction
Trigger: An enemy within 10 squares of you hits your ally
Effect: Before the end of your next turn, you gain a bonus to your next attack roll against the triggering enemy equal to your Int mod.


Covenant of Wrath-

Covenant Manifestation: When you use a divine encounter or daily attack power on your turn, you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to 1 for each enemy you attack with the power.

Channel Divinity: Armor of Wrath encounter
Immediate Reaction
Close burst 5
Trigger: An enemy within 5 squares of you hits you
Target: The triggering enemy in burst
Effect: The target takes radiant damage equal to your Con mod and you push the target 2 squares.
11: 1d6 + Con, 21: 2d6 + Con

[WickerNipple]

So let me see if I understand your definition of "elegant": Just because they changed a number in the title of the game, sudenly you got the willpower to write down the relevant abilities of your character into tiny pieces of paper?

He's saying the modularity of the power system allows them to introduce new powers to the class without invalidating the class as it exists in the player's handbook.

It makes updates to class balance much cleaner, and is more elegant than negating a class entirely which was the 3.x approach.

Or you can just ignore what he's saying, harp on your own personal issues, and sound like an ass. Hey, it's the internet.

[Artanis]

Are you implying that we should wait to have a finished product on our hands before judging relative power levels? :smallconfused:
Lord knows that I get yelled at every time I say it :smallfrown:

[Vortling]

I wouldn't be so sure. Either it will produce summons like the Cleric's (ex: Guardian of Faith) or it can summon a Beastmaster Ranger-like celestial being with certain characteristics.

I think both of those are pretty sweet.

EDIT:
Nice! Someone actually has access!

I guess I need to be more specific. In my opinion, Guardian of Faith is a preexisting controlling power. Little about it other than the fluff has anything to do with summoning. It's a zone that you move around that does damage with one square at the center that enemies can't move through, ie a controlling power. Having their powers more like Beastmaster Rangers would be a start, but that goes back to my comment about fluffing up preexisting powers in a more general sense.

On the Invoker. It's good to see a controller being better at keeping enemies from moving, forcing them to move, or imposing other status effects rather than just hitting lots of enemies for damage. The differing covenants should help differ invokers from one another. With PHB2 I think it would be fun to have an all divine group just for the flavor fun involved.

Additionally, I find it disappointing that divine classes are getting saddled with the good against undead problem again this generation. In 3.5 turn undead was a useless and clunky situational ability until Complete Divine. In 4e it's just useless situational ability. If they absolutely had to keep the sacred cow of divine classes being good against undead they could have left it at the undead vulnerability to radiant damage. Then the cleric and the invoker could have had another useful power instead of turn undead.

[Gralamin]

I guess I need to be more specific. In my opinion, Guardian of Faith is a preexisting controlling power. Little about it other than the fluff has anything to do with summoning. It's a zone that you move around that does damage with one square at the center that enemies can't move through, ie a controlling power. Having their powers more like Beastmaster Rangers would be a start, but that goes back to my comment about fluffing up preexisting powers in a more general sense.

On the Invoker. It's good to see a controller being better at keeping enemies from moving, forcing them to move, or imposing other status effects rather than just hitting lots of enemies for damage. The differing covenants should help differ invokers from one another. With PHB2 I think it would be fun to have an all divine group just for the flavor fun involved.

Additionally, I find it disappointing that divine classes are getting saddled with the good against undead problem again this generation. In 3.5 turn undead was a useless and clunky situational ability until Complete Divine. In 4e it's just useless situational ability. If they absolutely had to keep the sacred cow of divine classes being good against undead they could have left it at the undead vulnerability to radiant damage. Then the cleric and the invoker could have had another useful power instead of turn undead.

To be fair, you can only use any channel divinity ability once per encounter anyway, so if a Divine fortune, you can't use Turn undead. Its not really all that useful of ability however you look at it.

As for the all divine group: It seems most divine classes (ie: Clerics, Paladins, and Invokers) have at least one build where they are made to last over many encounters. Its my theory that an all divine group would slowly wade through the enemy, taking little damage, and eventually going through more encounters a day before stopping.

[Yakk]

Yes. They avoided the "undead" trap with two tricks...

One, Undead are weak against radiant -- but radiant does fine against anything else.

Two, the "anti-undead' powers of Divine classes are under channel divinity. You get to use 1 of these powers per encounter. Each class has 1 anti-undead Channel, and 1 general purpose Channel. In addition, each God has (at least) 1 Diety-specific Channel you can get via a feat.

Already from the start, and by design, your "turn undead" slots are usable for other purposes. As it happens, if you run into undead, you can also face them down.

[Starsinger]

Yes. They avoided the "undead" trap with two tricks...

One, Undead are weak against radiant -- but radiant does fine against anything else.

Two, the "anti-undead' powers of Divine classes are under channel divinity. You get to use 1 of these powers per encounter. Each class has 1 anti-undead Channel, and 1 general purpose Channel. In addition, each God has (at least) 1 Diety-specific Channel you can get via a feat.

Already from the start, and by design, your "turn undead" slots are usable for other purposes. As it happens, if you run into undead, you can also face them down.

Pallies don't have an anti-undead channel divinity, unless they're Paladins of Pelor and take his feat.

[Drakefall]

I find my self wondering where this Invoker will be standing/moving about during combat. At first I see "controller" and think "Ah, he'll be in the back with the wizard." But then I see he has chainmail proficiency and start thinking he's more of middleman standing behind the defenders but before the squishies.

Can anyone who's seen the ranges on the various powers give some thought? Or really anyone who wants to can give any thoughts they wish.

[Tacoma]

Pah, I need more information to do more than half-assed speculating. Stupid Great Wall of Content. :smallyuk:

It's called trying to get people to buy the book and not give everything away for free.

It doesn't really matter, after all, people are going to figure out ways (http://piracyrules.ytmnd.com/) around it once the book hits the shelves.

[Vortling]

Yes. They avoided the "undead" trap with two tricks...

One, Undead are weak against radiant -- but radiant does fine against anything else.


No argument here. I'm fine with different damage types making classes better or worse against specific types of opponents.



Two, the "anti-undead' powers of Divine classes are under channel divinity. You get to use 1 of these powers per encounter. Each class has 1 anti-undead Channel, and 1 general purpose Channel. In addition, each God has (at least) 1 Diety-specific Channel you can get via a feat.

Already from the start, and by design, your "turn undead" slots are usable for other purposes. As it happens, if you run into undead, you can also face them down.
This doesn't fix the trap at all. Yes they're usable for other purposes, but I can't remove the slot completely and give it over to other purposes. Thus the problem still exists. Given an encounter with undead, the cleric and the invoker will be expected to use their turn undead ability instead of another power from the Channel Divinity set. It wouldn't have been hard at all to let clerics choose two Channel Divinity feats and drop turn undead completely.



It's called trying to get people to buy the book and not give everything away for free.

Wizard's has plenty of free previews up for their 3.5 books. For some reason they've decided it's a good idea now to make people pay for the previews of their 4e books. I don't see the logic but the Races and Classes, and Worlds and Monsters books must have sold enough for them to think it's worth irritating some of their fans for the money.

[AKA_Bait]

I don't see the logic but the Races and Classes, and Worlds and Monsters books must have sold enough for them to think it's worth irritating some of their fans for the money.

This is one of the reasons I wish that there were published sales statistics on these. I'm really curious to see if that's working. I mean, the 4e preview books sold, ime, because there was an entire new edition coming out. I just don't see a PHB4 or some such having the same kind of curiosity pull. Then again, it may be offset by the subscription nature of the service (i.e. people being too lazy to stop paying them).

[Asbestos]

I find my self wondering where this Invoker will be standing/moving about during combat. At first I see "controller" and think "Ah, he'll be in the back with the wizard." But then I see he has chainmail proficiency and start thinking he's more of middleman standing behind the defenders but before the squishies.

Can anyone who's seen the ranges on the various powers give some thought? Or really anyone who wants to can give any thoughts they wish.

Most of the ranged powers have a range of 10, but there are also a number of close bursts as well. Wizards are what... range 20 for a lot of things?

[Gralamin]

Wizard's has plenty of free previews up for their 3.5 books. For some reason they've decided it's a good idea now to make people pay for the previews of their 4e books. I don't see the logic but the Races and Classes, and Worlds and Monsters books must have sold enough for them to think it's worth irritating some of their fans for the money.

I picked up Races and Classes, and a friend picked up Worlds and Monsters. They were interesting reads for their time.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Pallies don't have an anti-undead channel divinity, unless they're Paladins of Pelor and take his feat.

True, though STR Paladins have an At-Will which does Radiant Damage. And there are a variety of powers (CHA for Ranged, STR for Melee) which deal Radiant damage. Oh, and Divine Challenge does automatic radiant damage, which is always nice. I'd say Paladins are good enough against undead, even if they don't have Turn Undead.

[Starsinger]

True, though STR Paladins have an At-Will which does Radiant Damage. And there are a variety of powers (CHA for Ranged, STR for Melee) which deal Radiant damage. Oh, and Divine Challenge does automatic radiant damage, which is always nice. I'd say Paladins are good enough against undead, even if they don't have Turn Undead.

I didn't say Paladins didn't have anti-undead capability.

[JaxGaret]

Seems pretty obvious that the Invoker is the 4e port of the Favored Soul.

[OneFamiliarFace]

Seems pretty obvious that the Invoker is the 4e port of the Favored Soul.

I dunno, the new cleric seems like the port of the favored soul, while the invoker seems like something new. This is basically because the cleric can focus on his martial self (like the favored soul's weapon feats), while the invoker is kind of new, both in flavor and power selection (at least compared to the last two classes).

More likely, I would say this is the splitting of one class (cleric) into two classes (cleric and invoker), with the former getting the melee and healing stuff, and the latter getting the control and summoning stuff.

That is similar to how the druid, shaman, and warden may very well turn into a 3-way splitting of the druid class.

[Asbestos]

I dunno, the new cleric seems like the port of the favored soul, while the invoker seems like something new. This is basically because the cleric can focus on his martial self (like the favored soul's weapon feats), while the invoker is kind of new, both in flavor and power selection (at least compared to the last two classes).

More likely, I would say this is the splitting of one class (cleric) into two classes (cleric and invoker), with the former getting the melee and healing stuff, and the latter getting the control and summoning stuff.

That is similar to how the druid, shaman, and warden may very well turn into a 3-way splitting of the druid class.

Yeah, it does seem more like what was left of the old cleric after they made the 4e cleric rather than a port of the favored soul.

[Muad'dib]

At this rate, it seems like you'll be able to make an entire party made out of a single power source with all roles filled within one or two more splats. That has some interesting setting implications don't you think?

[Ealstan]

At this rate, it seems like you'll be able to make an entire party made out of a single power source with all roles filled within one or two more splats. That has some interesting setting implications don't you think?

I doubt we will ever see a Martial Controller.

[Charity]

That sounds like a wager to me... I bet you a week of puddins that we do.

(of course as you will not be able to prove the negative until 4e is no longer in print, I am at an advantage, but your conviction might like them odds, who knows)

[Vortling]

I doubt we will ever see a Martial Controller.
I keep holding out a hope that they'll make a Swashbuckler class that's a martial controller.

I don't see anything particularly implied to a setting if there's one role for each power source. It does have some interesting flavor applications if you have a party with all the same power source. I'd say even more so if you have an all divine party, especially if they all follow the same god or goddess. Martial you could have them all from the same military unit or school. Arcane is a little harder to pull together but not impossible.

[Yakk]

This doesn't fix the trap at all. Yes they're usable for other purposes, but I can't remove the slot completely and give it over to other purposes. Thus the problem still exists. Given an encounter with undead, the cleric and the invoker will be expected to use their turn undead ability instead of another power from the Channel Divinity set. It wouldn't have been hard at all to let clerics choose two Channel Divinity feats and drop turn undead completely.
I don't understand what you think the problem is, then.

Sure, if you run into a situation where your optional and situationally useful powers are useful, you will probably be using that power. This doesn't mean you suck because they gave you that power.

You could argue that "we could have gotten something else instead of that power", but ... the Channel Divinity power was designed so that it is a collection of situationally useful powers, of which you can use 1 per encounter. I'd in fact argue that non-situational powers that are under Channel Divinity should be weak, and used only as a last resort, and instead the characters should have multiple situational powers in that slot.

As a "pick one from a list per encounter" power, this is a nearly ideal spot to put such situational powers. Once you add in powers that are not situational, then this slot no longer becomes ideal for that purpose.

Finally, the "power" of channel divinity is only slightly higher than the "weak" non-situational power.