Celia: Miko Part Deux?

[Fri]

First, this isn't a thread to discuss Miko, so scram for those who are just attracted on the 'Miko' part of the title.

I don't generally post in oots discussion, since basically almost all things had been discussed here previously and the discussions are cyclical. But there is something that I noticed lately. I noticed some parallel between Celia and Miko. Not in the actual in-comic character, but more in a meta way. The way Giant write it and how the fans perceived him.

In my opinion, it's almost like Miko all over again. Giant accidentally, or inaccidentally, flanderize her. It's the act of taking a single (often minor) aspect of a character and exaggerating it more and more until it's huge and cartoonish and almost entirely consumes the character. First, she's a smart character, only with occasional ditziness focused on her different species like how she's attracted to the bug zapper light and how she didn't know that human can't shoot lightning from their fingers. After some while, now she's a total klutz. Now we even somewhat already got the Celia lover/hater dichotomy, like with Miko previously.

For those who didn't know, Miko wasn't supposed to be the character that we love to hate like that. Giant explained that it's actually some kind of accident. I forgot the exact explanation, but basically Miko was supposed to be a more likable character, but he noticed that he gave her some annoying characteristic, and he noticed how the readers focused on her negativity, so he decided to roll on and accentuate the negatives to make somewhat a parody of how to NOT play a paladin/how bad paladin players play a paladin.

Hm, I should post this in the 'Celia' thread, but I thought, what the heck.

Maybe I (gasp) just overanalyze the situation? Should I just focus myself in deducing V's gender?

[RMS Oceanic]

I can see where you're coming from: Celia has recently become quite controversial. It's tricky to chalk up her actions to naivity about the Material Plane when she directly disregards Haley's advice about Greysky City, with (at the moment) bad results for all save Belkar, which denotes either an outright inability to believe that a mere town could be so horrible, or a moment of reckless foolishness. Also, the accusation of being "Stupid Good" (to quote TV Tropes' example of the concept, "Stop picking on the poor defenceless hellspawn!") has been laid at her wings, while others again chalk this up to her naivity about how a D&D based world works. I suppose this controversy has sprung up due to how competent and savvy she seemed at the Trial: it feels like inconsistant characterisation, although it could be just an example of the courtroom being where she truly belongs. Maybe if she learns from this whole experience and becomes more street-smart, especially if she stays with Haley until the Order is reunited, maybe she'll improve.

[MReav]

I think what the Giant said that he didn't intend to make Miko as abrasive as he initially did in her initial debut. She was always meant to screw up big time, possibly as part of the theme of the Gates being destroyed by irony (Lirian's Gate by interfering with natural forest fires, Durokun's Gate by Magic, Soon's Gate by Ex-Paladin), but Miko I believe was always supposed to straddle the line.

Celia... I'm not sure what happened. She's come a long way from frying Nale for screwing around with her to being unwilling to cast spells in her own defense. If she's so anti-violence, why doesn't she include non fatal spells like Charm Person?

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Heh, its nice to see that I am not alone in disliking Celia. In some ways I feel that Celia is actually worse than Miko. Like her or hate her, Miko served an important role in the story, she was there to railroad the party to Soon and she knew it. Unless Belkar's character development was location specific (only possible in Greysky City), Celia doesn't appear to be guiding the party anywhere. It may turn out that there is a critical plot point that she uncovers or helps out with but if so then I can't see it. Miko also served to facilitate the party's movement on the quest. When the party had the side quest with the ogre bandits, Miko virtually wiped out the entire clan with her distraction and allowed the party to move on to more important things. Celia seems to be hampering the parties progress by not being willing to fight. This is especially aggravating as Celia was a storyline facilitator during the Azure City Trial.

MReav, I like your idea about the Gates being destroyed through irony. I hadn't caught on to the theme there.

[The Minx]

I think what the Giant said that he didn't intend to make Miko as abrasive as he initially did in her initial debut. She was always meant to screw up big time, possibly as part of the theme of the Gates being destroyed by irony (Lirian's Gate by interfering with natural forest fires, Durokun's Gate by Magic, Soon's Gate by Ex-Paladin), but Miko I believe was always supposed to straddle the line.

I've seen several posts on the subject of the Giant talking about Miko and how she did/did not turn out the way he intended, some claim the one thing, others claim something else. It's all very confusing. :smallconfused:

Does anyone have a link to the actual post?

[Fishman]

Celia... I'm not sure what happened. She's come a long way from frying Nale for screwing around with her to being unwilling to cast spells in her own defense. If she's so anti-violence, why doesn't she include non fatal spells like Charm Person?Probably because clear difference in the violence continuum between zapping Nale, which has zero lethality and is functionally equivalent to the Enormously Oversized Mallet, to actually killing people with it. No one ever dies from being hit with the Enormously Oversized Mallet, either, and it's never around when it might actually be needed to do actual damage.

[Assassin89]

Maybe I (gasp) just overanalyze the situation? Should I just focus myself in deducing V's gender?

I do not think we should discuss such matters regarding gender. I figured out one direct method, but that would cause me to become ashes

The main difference between Celia and Miko is that Celia would act like one of those apathetic NPCs while Miko acts more like a PC.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

i think people's main problem with celia is that everyone has a d&d mentality when considering her. they figured smart characters act competent, dumb characters act incompetent.

thing is, there are people in real life who just don't kill, even in strained situations. furthermore, stick a lawyer on a battlefield, and they'll probably look incompetent, no matter how good they are in the courtroom.

miko wasn't acting very real, she was acting ridiculous as a joke. but i could imagine a celia in real life (lack of understanding humans nonwithstanding). some people just don't belong on the battlefield

[MReav]

I've seen several posts on the subject of the Giant talking about Miko and how she did/did not turn out the way he intended, some claim the one thing, others claim something else. It's all very confusing. :smallconfused:

Does anyone have a link to the actual post?

It's in No Cure For The Paladin Blues, page just before 224.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I've seen several posts on the subject of the Giant talking about Miko and how she did/did not turn out the way he intended, some claim the one thing, others claim something else. It's all very confusing. :smallconfused:

Does anyone have a link to the actual post?

There is no post made by the Giant on these boards that I'm aware of, but he discussed this in the commentary in "No Cure for the Paladin Blues" and "War and XPs."
EDIT: Blasted ninjas!

Something that intrigues me in this thread was this line from MReav:


part of the theme of the Gates being destroyed by irony (Lirian's Gate by interfering with natural forest fires, Durokun's Gate by Magic, Soon's Gate by Ex-Paladin

Girard's gate could also be undone also by magic, although you would think through a different method than Dorukan's. I mean two self-destruct runes in one comic? :smallyuk: :smallwink:

But Kraagor's Gate does have the possibility of being ruined by one of the monster's left behind by Serini... While many people (not me, of course) think the MitD is a tarrasque, I don't see any reason at all for a tarrasque NOT to be one of the guardians, either the first (kind of like the big lizard in front of Xykon's back-up tower), or the final beastie to be overcome while fending off Xykon and Co. at the same time...

[MReav]

Girard's gate could also be undone also by magic, although you would think through a different method than Dorukan's. I mean two self-destruct runes in one comic? :smallyuk: :smallwink:


It needs to be undone by deception. So, when Xykon, say, nukes the most innocuous looking thing in the room with a half-dozen Meteor Swards while taking out the guardians, he ends up destroying the Gate.

[gibbedman]

I think you're right in that Celia was never meant to be the character she is now. I think that the Giant, in plotting the course for this post-Sapphire world, looked at Celia and said "here is a good character and a lawyer...what would she do if she were forced into a battle?" And the answer is, as is often the case here at OOtS, an interesting one.

There's a section of BoED called "Waging Peace." It describes how characters and players who take into account the tradgedy that is death in a world of horrible monsters and villains. Can we really justify taking a life ever? Can we afford to leave some people alive? These questions can be part of a game with a deeper understanding of a realistic world, and that's the direction I feel the Giant is going. I look forward to seeing Celia in a kill-or-be-killed situation and the consequences of her decision.

But, as I say, no, I don't think this was ever the intent of the Giant back in Dorukan's dungeon to look into that realistic world, but that's what can happen when you write characters well--they take you places that you didn't expect to go.

[Scarlet Knight]

Perhaps, Celia is serving as a plot device, namely, the perpetual hostage ( eg Wasp, Robin, Jimmy Olsen) who can also double as a rescuer. Kinda' like the player who shows up only about half the time. When he plays, he's competent, when he's away, the DM makes him a plot hook.

[Hydro Globus]

It needs to be undone by deception. So, when Xykon, say, nukes the most innocuous looking thing in the room with a half-dozen Meteor Swards while taking out the guardians, he ends up destroying the Gate.

Or with a simple Acid Arrow...

[Samurai Jill]

First, this isn't a thread to discuss Miko, so scram for those who are just attracted on the 'Miko' part of the title.
Who, exactly, are you kidding here? You're explicitly drawing a comparison between Miko and Celia- discussion of Miko is GOING to be involved.

In my opinion, it's almost like Miko all over again. Giant accidentally, or inaccidentally, flanderize her. It's the act of taking a single (often minor) aspect of a character and exaggerating it more and more until it's huge and cartoonish and almost entirely consumes the character. First, she's a smart character, only with occasional ditziness focused on her different species like how she's attracted to the bug zapper light and how she didn't know that human can't shoot lightning from their fingers. After some while, now she's a total klutz. Now we even somewhat already got the Celia lover/hater dichotomy, like with Miko previously.

For those who didn't know, Miko wasn't supposed to be the character that we love to hate like that. Giant explained that it's actually some kind of accident. I forgot the exact explanation, but basically Miko was supposed to be a more likable character, but he noticed that he gave her some annoying characteristic, and he noticed how the readers focused on her negativity, so he decided to roll on and accentuate the negatives to make somewhat a parody of how to NOT play a paladin/how bad paladin players play a paladin.
SEE- THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT, RICH!

...Yeah, pretty well. Though, to a certain extent, I actually blame the fans, many of whom seem incapable of recognising fault on the part of their beloved "protagonists." Heck, Rich had to come out and explicitly say that Belkar was Evil before it really sunk in, despite being throbbingly, cancerously obvious for most of the strip.

I think the link between Miko and Celia goes a little deeper, though. Miko and Celia are depicted as... being at opposite ends of the LG spectrum. Miko is interested in effectiveness and is mistrustful and suspicious, Celia sticks to principles beyond practicality and is naive and inexperienced. I'd respect both more if Celia were more conflicted and Miko were less self-deluded. Frankly, though, I'm kinda losing interest in Celia at this point.

[Manoftyr]

I think the link between Miko and Celia goes a little deeper, though. Miko and Celia are depicted as... being at opposite ends of the LG spectrum. Miko is interested in effectiveness and is mistrustful and suspicious, Celia sticks to principles beyond practicality and is naive and inexperienced. I'd respect both more if Celia were more conflicted and Miko were less self-deluded. Frankly, though, I'm kinda losing interest in Celia at this point.

I agree on the Celia/Miko point aside from that no matter how un self-deluded Miko became I still couldn't see myself respecting her much at all and being the absolutist judgmental and self-righteously indignant prick of a die hard Chaotic Good jerk that I am I'd most likely view Celia negatively until she grew up some and demonstrated that she cared less about her principles and more about defending her friends/loved ones. I just don't get along with lawful types in D&D settings, and largely in real life as well =p.

Actually in all honesty the last two comics in their entirety have admittedly been 'losing' me so to speak, but I'm not worried since every time I'm about to lose interest in the comic the Giant manages to pull something brilliant and drag me right on back.

[David Argall]

First, this isn't a thread to discuss Miko,
As noted, you can't compare Miko without discussing Miko.


I noticed some parallel between Celia and Miko. in a meta way. The way Giant write it and how the fans perceived him.

In my opinion, it's almost like Miko all over again. Giant accidentally, or inaccidentally, flanderize her. It's the act of taking a single (often minor) aspect of a character and exaggerating it more and more until it's huge and cartoonish and almost entirely consumes the character.
I just do not see this. Now as to the cartoonish aspect, what do you think you are reading?


First, she's a smart character, only with occasional ditziness focused on her different species like how she's attracted to the bug zapper light and how she didn't know that human can't shoot lightning from their fingers. After some while, now she's a total klutz. Now we even somewhat already got the Celia lover/hater dichotomy, like with Miko previously.
I wonder if the problem here is that people don't like their views challenged. Paladins are the good guys. Miko was a foe of the party. Celia was quite competent at the trial. Now she is incompetent, for good reasons, but still a contrast.


For those who didn't know, Miko wasn't supposed to be the character that we love to hate like that. Giant explained that it's actually some kind of accident. I forgot the exact explanation, but basically Miko was supposed to be a more likable character, but he noticed that he gave her some annoying characteristic, and he noticed how the readers focused on her negativity, so he decided to roll on and accentuate the negatives to make somewhat a parody of how to NOT play a paladin/how bad paladin players play a paladin.
You seem to be putting the cart before the horse here. According to our writer anyway, Miko turned out much as expected from the start. This was not a case of reader influence. Now there was minor error. Miko was not supposed to arouse rabid hatred like she did. Dislike yes, but not this insane forgetting one is reading about a comic character. But our author confesses to being unable to write her softer.

[Zevox]

I only see the most rudimentary of parallel. Miko promoted intense hatred among fans for her self-righteous behavior, insistence that everyone around her conform to her worldviews, and her complete inability to see when she was wrong. Celia is also causing complaints, but nowhere near the intensity or quantity Miko did, and for completely different reasons.

To be honest, I don't even understand the complaints about Celia. She's literally from another world, she's about as out of her element as she can get, and she's acting accordingly. Yet the reader response isn't to see that this is logical and derive some amusement from it, but to complain that she's nowhere near as competent as the rest of the Order, who are career adventurers. Granted, she's not exactly my favorite character either, and jokes involving her are often not as amusing to me as those involving other characters, but I don't understand why some are hoping for her death and so forth.

I also don't see any the Celia lovers the OP posited when he mentioned she had a love/hate dichotomy going as Miko did. Other than the complaints, the only reactions I've noticed to her are indifference, or at most maybe some mild amusement.

Zevox

[Raging Gene Ray]

As noted, you can't compare Miko without discussing Miko.

I think what the OP meant is that this is a Celia thread first and a Miko thread second.

That said, we can't really judge the two. Miko completed her character development from demonstrating her personality, falling, descending into insanity, and finally acceptance and revealing the Miko who just wants to be with her horse (Rich may have intended to show more of this side of her, but that's another thread).

Celia, on the other hand, hasn't finished her part in the story. She may just be setting herself up in order to reveal some sort of mind-shattering violation of her principles when she is tortured and sees just how ugly the world can be or just finds herself throwing a lightning bolt (LIGHNTING BOLT!!!) at Yor.

[Assassin89]

*stabs all illogical arguments in this thread*
I agree with Zevox's points. Miko is/was part of the material plane. Celia is an outsider for the plane in which the comic takes place. Most of Celia's time on the material plane was spent near one of the gates, occasionally leaving for "important missions". Considering all of that time spent in one place, wouldn't anyone be clueless if suddenly removed from a comfortable environment without any outside knowledge?
*stabs all illogical arguments again*

[Fish]

I don't have a problem with the way Celia is written, as far as her battlefield competence and her wide-eyed innocence go. If you presume that Miko became an exaggerated character over time because of one flaw, then I don't think Celia is any more exaggerated than any other character: Durkon's ridiculous fear of trees, Haley's greed, Elan's stupidity, Thog's simple-mindedness, and Belkar's kill-everything-that-moves evil. It's a comic. Expect some exaggeration.

But ... ah, yes, Belkar has changed, hasn't he? And so has Elan. I hold out hope that Durkon may yet change, and so may Celia. The grand difference here is that Miko didn't change. She couldn't, not even at the end. She saw the light, realized her true duty, but she never atoned. The scales never fell from her eyes.

My problem with the way Celia is written has nothing to do with exaggerated characteristics.

[Trazoi]

I don't quite get the Celia hate either, much like I didn't get the hate towards Miko. Both characters serve (or served for Miko) an important narrative purpose. I liked the tragic nature of Miko and her status as an unconventional antagonist. And Celia is a nice contrast to Haley right now. Her naivety of adventuring life might be a causing a lot of the problems right now, but I think it's interesting. I'm happy to see how Celia's role, as it currently stands in the story, plays out.

[Lord Seth]

Celia's personality honestly changes depending on what's needed for the plot. At least Miko was somewhat consistent.

[Samurai Jill]

Celia's personality honestly changes depending on what's needed for the plot. At least Miko was somewhat consistent.
True enough.

[theinsulabot]

as i have said elsewhere, Celia's saving grace in my eyes is she doesn't have any pressing need to force her beliefs on others. and no, a mild big sisterly scolding does not qualify. its kind of like the two types of vegetarians you meat (pun intended) one type does it for there own moral code and wont feel the need to boycott McDonald's or walk around in a burger=murder sign, and there is the type who feels this is entirely justified behavior

[Liwen]

I don't quite get the Celia hate either

Here are a number of reasons that caused her to be hated by some of the fans:

1. She played the Damsel in distress at least 2 times in the entire comic, 3 times if you count her transmutation to stone and 4 if you consider her failling to bluff the hobos guards and have Belkar stab one a situation where she put herself in distress. Many people are annoyed when a character creates additionnal trouble by being incompetent, being unlucky or simply because they are the Overdone Princess Peach kidnnaped by the super villain for pointless reasons such a sexual amusement that are never displayed anyway because those stories are aimed at the kids.

2. She is out of element and become often useless and a liability. People wants to see their heroes kick monumental amounts of @$$es and gain awesomeness, not help the pointless lacky.

3. She excuses her inactions by a concept which our bloodthisty race cannot tolerate or function efficiently with : Pascifism.

4. She sermons her commorades about their overall careless and violent behavior in the middle of a conflict with forces that intend to conquer the multiverse and have, at the very least, a very high chance or destroying the world and causing the death of sevreal, if not all, gods.

5. She is a lawyer. Lawyers a usually mistrusted and selfish.

6. But the most hatred comes from the following. Of all reasons the increase the hate factor, the fact that she CAN blast those petty theives with lightning, but hasn't done so a single time since the 30 plus rounds of battle that have passed in Pete's house is the greatest of her flaw. She has offensive potential, but doesn't use it. WHY? Even Gandhi would have taken up a weapon in this situation, since the FATE OF THE WORLD DEPENDS ON THE SURVIVAL OF THOSE FEWS INDIVIDUALS WHICH ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN POSSIBLY HOPE TO KILL XYKON.

Oddly enough. I don't hate her for all that. I sometimes smack my hand on my face when I read one of those lines about how she won't attack the thieves, but it hasn't grown to hate...yet.

[theinsulabot]

snip

6. But the most hatred comes from the following. Of all reasons the increase the hate factor, the fact that she CAN blast those petty theives with lightning, but hasn't done so a single time since the 30 plus rounds of battle that have passed in Pete's house is the greatest of her flaw. She has offensive potential, but doesn't use it. WHY? Even Gandhi would have taken up a weapon in this situation, since the FATE OF THE WORLD DEPENDS ON THE SURVIVAL OF THOSE FEWS INDIVIDUALS WHICH ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN POSSIBLY HOPE TO KILL XYKON.

Oddly enough. I don't hate her for all that. I sometimes smack my hand on my face when I read one of those lines about how she won't attack the thieves, but it hasn't grown to hate...yet.

actually thanks to evasion any attempt celia made at blasting the rogues would be all but futile.

[Alair]

actually thanks to evasion any attempt celia made at blasting the rogues would be all but futile.

Not to mention standing and fighting for someone with no combat training whatsoever would be a pretty sure to get killed - and she's the only character who can't be revived.

[EyethatBinds]

Were this hentai, Celia would have been tentacle raped eleventeen ways from Tuesday by now. Just throwing that out there.

[Hydro Globus]

Okay then, floating and fighting. I think Liwen has good points.

[Zevox]

Here are a number of reasons that caused her to be hated by some of the fans:

1. She played the Damsel in distress at least 2 times in the entire comic, 3 times if you count her transmutation to stone and 4 if you consider her failling to bluff the hobos guards and have Belkar stab one a situation where she put herself in distress. Many people are annoyed when a character creates additionnal trouble by being incompetent, being unlucky or simply because they are the Overdone Princess Peach kidnnaped by the super villain for pointless reasons such a sexual amusement that are never displayed anyway because those stories are aimed at the kids.
Somehow, I don't think that one is actually causing any of the hatred towards her. We didn't get such reactions to Lien's capture, after all - just a few comments on how foolish she was for refusing to run away in that situation.


2. She is out of element and become often useless and a liability. People wants to see their heroes kick monumental amounts of @$$es and gain awesomeness, not help the pointless lacky.
And aren't those heroes kicking monumental amounts of ass and being awesome in the process of helping said lackey? :smallconfused:


3. She excuses her inactions by a concept which our bloodthisty race cannot tolerate or function efficiently with : Pascifism.
If this is actually causing the hatred, it explains why I can't comprehend the hatred, since I can see no rational reason for her pacifism to cause hatred among the fans.


4. She sermons her commorades about their overall careless and violent behavior in the middle of a conflict with forces that intend to conquer the multiverse and have, at the very least, a very high chance or destroying the world and causing the death of sevreal, if not all, gods.
Once. Something which she has not done again since, and which just a comic ago we saw she has no intention of doing again, as she seems to have decided that so long as she remains true to her principles, it doesn't matter what Haley or the other do. If this is fueling the matter, it's a gross overreaction.


5. She is a lawyer. Lawyers a usually mistrusted and selfish.
Yet Celia hasn't proven herself to be untrustworthy or selfish in the least. It makes no sense to project those qualities onto her just because of the job she is studying to acquire when she has never displayed them.


6. But the most hatred comes from the following. Of all reasons the increase the hate factor, the fact that she CAN blast those petty theives with lightning, but hasn't done so a single time since the 30 plus rounds of battle that have passed in Pete's house is the greatest of her flaw. She has offensive potential, but doesn't use it. WHY? Even Gandhi would have taken up a weapon in this situation, since the FATE OF THE WORLD DEPENDS ON THE SURVIVAL OF THOSE FEWS INDIVIDUALS WHICH ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN POSSIBLY HOPE TO KILL XYKON.
As others have pointed out, she could not actually do anything in this situation. Her enemies are rogues, who have good reflex saves, usually good dexterity to boost those saves, and evasion. Her lightning is thus likely useless. And she herself is a weak creature with no combat experience whatsoever, who hates the very concept of fighting, and who cannot be resurrected if she does die. Hell no she's not going to fight in this situation. It would be absolutely senseless, and possibly suicidal, for her to do so.

You'll also note that she has, in every way she actually sensibly can, attempted to help Haley here. She distracted a bunch of the thieves early on, and rescued Haley from certain death just a few strips ago, and provided her with healing to get her back into fight. And in doing so has risked her life, and is still in mortal danger because of it. Why on earth after such actions would she be inspiring hatred among the comic's fans for inaction? It makes no sense to me, and I cannot understand it.

Zevox

[Raging Gene Ray]

Were this hentai, Celia would have been tentacle raped eleventeen ways from Tuesday by now. Just throwing that out there.

And so would Haley, Miko, Julia, Tsukiko, Roy's Hot Mom, Redcloak's Hot Niece, Kazumi, Therkla, Sangwaan, Lien, Samantha, the Ninja Waitress, Eve the Alchemist, and the dirt farmer's wife...all at the same time...by V.

What's your point?

In conclusion, this: (by Caracol)



http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5636/xxih1.png

[Fri]

Who, exactly, are you kidding here? You're explicitly drawing a comparison between Miko and Celia- discussion of Miko is GOING to be involved.


Umm. Sorry.


I think what the OP meant is that this is a Celia thread first and a Miko thread second.


That's the answer... I think.

Anyway, sorry if I don't respond to the thread more, because I just want to post my opinion and read other's opinion about my opinion. It's pretty good so far.

And actually, I kinda like Miko and Celia :p

[David Argall]

Here are a number of reasons that caused her to be hated by some of the fans:

[QUOTE=Liwen;5485017]1. She played the Damsel in distress at least 2 times in the entire comic,
So? Most of the party has played Damsel in distress, most of them twice if we count the bandit cycle.

More important, the heros need damsels in distress to rescue. The story benefits from their presence.



2. She is out of element and become often useless and a liability. People wants to see their heroes kick monumental amounts of @$$es and gain awesomeness, not help the pointless lacky.
The heros need somebody to look awesome compared to. And a tale of continued heroic victories is rapidly dull.


3. She excuses her inactions by a concept which our bloodthisty race cannot tolerate or function efficiently with : Pascifism.
And it makes for some great jokes. We are not talking high drama here. This is comedy, and disfunctional characters are highly desirable.


4. She sermons her commorades about their overall careless and violent behavior in the middle of a conflict with forces that intend to conquer the multiverse and have, at the very least, a very high chance or destroying the world and causing the death of sevreal, if not all, gods.
See above.


5. She is a lawyer. Lawyers a usually mistrusted and selfish.
Strange, she didn't have many critics back when she was lawyering.


6. But the most hatred comes from the following. Of all reasons the increase the hate factor, the fact that she CAN blast those petty theives with lightning, but hasn't done so a single time since the 30 plus rounds of battle that have passed in Pete's house is the greatest of her flaw. She has offensive potential, but doesn't use it. WHY?
A-She is a pacifist.
B-It is not too useful against good reflex save rogues.
C-This, like the lawyer case, seems to be an excuse, not a reason. People have been yelling at Celia since long before she had a chance to try to zap some rogues.



Even Gandhi would have taken up a weapon in this situation,
Gandhi was entirely pacifist, and was Hindu, which sees the destruction of the world as a desirable goal. They just see active attempts to do so as senseless striving.


since the FATE OF THE WORLD DEPENDS ON THE SURVIVAL OF THOSE FEWS INDIVIDUALS WHICH ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN POSSIBLY HOPE TO KILL XYKON.

The presence of Bozzak shows us that there are a substantial number of people who may be able to take Xykon on a good day. The party are merely those dedicated to the task, and they may in fact be making it harder to kill him.

[Fish]

The only complaint I have about Celia is that for months, nothing happened until Celia showed up. Haley and Belkar were both staying put, fighting a rearguard action against the hobgoblins in Azure City, waiting to be contacted by V and Durkon.

If it takes a minor, unimportant NPC to show up and steer the plot, it diminishes the other characters. Haley was smart enough to leave the city on her own, and yet she stayed when there was no good reason to do so. Celia shows up and points out the Bleeding Obvious. It just makes Haley look like an indecisive, misguided fool.

I'm still waiting to see why Celia's reintroduction has any value to the plot.

[Phishfood]

If it takes a minor, unimportant NPC to show up and steer the plot, it diminishes the other characters. Haley was smart enough to leave the city on her own, and yet she stayed when there was no good reason to do so. Celia shows up and points out the Bleeding Obvious. It just makes Haley look like an indecisive, misguided fool.


It takes a "minor" NPC with information that Haley didn't have (ie - cloister) to alter the plot. Haley made the tactical decision to stay in the city because 1) she could help the refugees 2) every hobbo she kills is one less they have to kill to retake AC, whoever "they" ends up being. 3) The others last saw her in AC so she figured they would be most likely to try and meet her at AC, or at the very least she didn't want to head completley the opposite direction to the rest of the party.

Celia has also made some good points. E.g. sneaking past the guards rather than leaving a trail of corpses for team evil to follow. As for the rest of the anti-celia crowd, what level is she? do we really think she is level 14 or so, level with oots? I'm willing to bet she is under level 10 and totally screwed against most encounters in the comic.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd say she's at least level 6 due to her use of Lightning Bolt. I agree with the fact that not killing those Hobgoblins was for the best, but she annoys me due to how her actions lead directly to Haley almost being killed when she was told specifically that Greysky was a bad place (the fact that her anti-violence principal, assuming that the theory that she's bluffing about that, applies to people who are trying to kill her while not applying to people who mess with her is a joke as well, along with her claims that she can't be raised).

[whitelaughter]

Yes, I think so. I certainly noticed the similarities, but put that down to Roy's taste in girls.

Miko started out awesome - climbing to a high point when she completely honourably lured the monsters into fireball ground zero. Similarly, Celia was a voice of reason from the moment Haley called her until she got Haley out of the city (which united the resistance movements - good work to Haley for organising one, but it was definitely time she left).
Unfortunately, Celia's been holding the idiot ball ever since suggesting going to Greysky city. :frown:

[Lissibith]

I guess I see the connection in a rudimentary way. But I think it bothers me because, IMO, Miko was battle-optimized but never did the best she could. She was smart enough to figure out what was going on in Azure City - she just didn't want to. She was happy being blind to the consequences of her actions and the realities of other people's.

Celia, I think, gets that pacifism out on the open road might well get her killed. Further, what in-comic evidence do we have that her lightning could actually incapacitate or kill anyone? We saw it mildly singe Nale with the full force of her anger behind it. And it's not like she's been a shrinking violet cowering and waiting for it all to be over the way some people are making it sound. She acted as a decoy for the thieves, and then flew out to grab Haley when Belkar provided a distraction that made it feasible to do so. She could have been killed either of those times, but she was helping where she could.

[hamishspence]

we know it breaks things- a door, in the strips with them fleeing the flesh golems, for example.

[Samurai Jill]

And actually, I kinda like Miko and Celia :p
Eh... I'm just bitter, I guess. I'm sure the strip can manage to deliver the goods either way.

[Scarlet Knight]

Were this hentai, Celia would have been tentacle raped eleventeen ways from Tuesday by now. Just throwing that out there.

Aaah! Young lawyers in love!

[Fri]

Yes, I think so. I certainly noticed the similarities, but put that down to Roy's taste in girls.


I seriously, seriously just noticed the obvious now.

[Zevox]

If it takes a minor, unimportant NPC to show up and steer the plot, it diminishes the other characters. Haley was smart enough to leave the city on her own, and yet she stayed when there was no good reason to do so. Celia shows up and points out the Bleeding Obvious. It just makes Haley look like an indecisive, misguided fool.
:smallconfused: I think you're confused there. Haley had perfectly rational reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html) for remaining in Azure City (panel 2). She had no idea where to start looking for the others, they knew where they had last seen her, and they had all the magic. Under the circumstances, it makes perfect sense for her to stay put and wait for them to either return to reunite with her or to contact her magically so they can set up a rendezvous. What Ceilia pointed out was far from obvious - how on earth could Haley, a pure Rogue with absolutely no spellcasting ability, possibly have known that Xykon had set up a spell that would block magical communications so thoroughly throughout all of Azure City?


I'd say she's at least level 6 due to her use of Lightning Bolt.
Not necessarily. We don't know if her lightning is a racial spell-like ability or the result of Sylphs having all the powers of Sorcerers at their HD. If the former is the case, she could easily have 5 or 6 HD but still be only a low CR, meaning much weaker than a 6th level PC would be.

Zevox

[Roderick_BR]

i think people's main problem with celia is that everyone has a d&d mentality when considering her. they figured smart characters act competent, dumb characters act incompetent.

thing is, there are people in real life who just don't kill, even in strained situations. furthermore, stick a lawyer on a battlefield, and they'll probably look incompetent, no matter how good they are in the courtroom.

miko wasn't acting very real, she was acting ridiculous as a joke. but i could imagine a celia in real life (lack of understanding humans nonwithstanding). some people just don't belong on the battlefield

I agree. Celia is not an adventurer. She's that out-of battle NPC that is following the group around, helping with her non-common abilities (rays and flight), and after being attacked by the skeleton of her deceased boyfriend, attacked by golens, attacked by a whole guild of rogues, one can only expect her to be messed up.
The part about her worrying about Haley's hair when Haley is trying to keep them alive, for example, is an indication on how some people just can't work well under pressure, when that pressure it threat of death.

And the thing about "Celia is not guiding them anywhere", again, that's D&D mentality that everyone in a group need to be effective and contributing 100% of the time, instead of just tagging along.

So, no, I don't see her anything like a Miko. She's sometimes someone that can point something adventurers often don't pay attention, and she can be a burden at times of war. Just that.