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Mephit
2008-12-15, 01:05 PM
I made a build for the ' To Boldly Suck Where No One Has Sucked Before' thread, and uh...it went surprisingly easy.

I've always ignored the shuriken pretty much, but now I get to think about it: Does it have a use? :smallconfused:
The only special quality I can think of is that a monk can flurry with it from a distance, but 2x1d2+Str damage at 10 ft. distance isn't that impressive.

So I have to ask: has anyone ever used this weapon? And if so, was it any good?

Tengu_temp
2008-12-15, 01:08 PM
I've heard of a certain Crusader build... *gets shot*

Lapak
2008-12-15, 01:10 PM
In the real world, shurikens fall into the same category as pretty much every throwing knife: they serve as an excellent distraction but a poor lethal weapon. It takes an extremely lucky hit to cause life-threatening damage with them. So people either threw them in order to facilitate another action (distract and attack with a melee weapon, distract and run away) or poisoned them.

D&D doesn't really have rules to cover how flinching away from or defending against a thrown weapon distracts an opponent, so that leaves poison (or enchantments, which are similar) as the only effective shuriken tactic.

Though a house rule to allow thrown weapons to act as an automatic Feint (or a pseudo-flank, or denial of Opportunity Attacks, or something) would definitely be one way to bring them back into play.

FinalJustice
2008-12-15, 01:14 PM
I suppose some cheesed-out Sneak Attack/Skirmish build would benefit for the extra attack from a 1 level dip in monk and shuriken flurry. But since Bloodstorm Blade, it strikes me as pointless. Why would one throw little bits of metal when he can throw axes (aside from stealth, of course)?

Smiley_
2008-12-15, 01:17 PM
I suppose you could easily conceal poisoned shuriken whereas axes and hammers usually draw unwanted attention.

Jasdoif
2008-12-15, 01:18 PM
Shuriken can make useful emergency weapons because they're considered ammunition for the purpose of crafting special versions of them. So adding, for example, +1 flaming frost shock to a single shuriken only costs 640gp, compared to the 32,000gp it'd take to add it to another weapon. You can likely afford a handful of shuriken with more weapon properties then whatever primary weapon you have. They're also considered ammunition for the purpose of drawing them, so drawing them is a free action even without Quick Draw.

But as a primary weapon, they do leave much to be desired.

ericgrau
2008-12-15, 01:24 PM
As far as I can tell their main purpose seems to be to give the monk a range option. I'd save them for disrupting spellcasters and other situations where you really must use range, but in general stick to different weapons.

FWIW shurikens and crossbows are the only ranged weapons that can be used while prone. Being prone gives a +4 AC against ranged attacks (but -4 vs. melee).

Shurikens are also very easy to conceal on one's person, even more so than a dagger.

Wih
2008-12-15, 02:09 PM
Cheap enchantments - for what you'd pay for a once-off Disinergrate enchantment on your longsword, you can get 50 of them on shuriken.
Quick draw - since they're treated as ammunition for many purposes, you can draw them as a free action without needing the quick draw feat.

Starsinger
2008-12-15, 02:11 PM
Shuriken can make useful emergency weapons because they're considered ammunition for the purpose of crafting special versions of them. So adding, for example, +1 flaming frost shock to a single shuriken only costs 640gp, compared to the 32,000gp it'd take to add it to another weapon. You can likely afford a handful of shuriken with more weapon properties then whatever primary weapon you have. They're also considered ammunition for the purpose of drawing them, so drawing them is a free action even without Quick Draw.

But as a primary weapon, they do leave much to be desired.

I'm fairly certain flaming frost and shock don't stack, but I don't remember where (if) I saw that.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 02:15 PM
I'm fairly certain flaming frost and shock don't stack, but I don't remember where (if) I saw that.

They do. Multiple energy additions work.

Starsinger
2008-12-15, 02:22 PM
They do. Multiple energy additions work.

Oh... is it that Flaming and Flaming Burst don't stack that I was thinking of?

arguskos
2008-12-15, 02:37 PM
Oh... is it that Flaming and Flaming Burst don't stack that I was thinking of?
Yeah, those don't stack.

On topic, I have a houserule that a character can throw more than one shuriken or dart at a target in one attack action. I figure, they do such little damage (even with energy enhancements and sneak attack/sudden strike), you should be able to toss a few at the bad guy before he comes over there and smacks your face in.

Also, it lets my weird Ninja/Master Thrower do silly things with Two With One Shot and Palm Throw! :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 02:39 PM
Flaming and Flaming (or Flaming x2) don't stack. It is posible to prismatically enchant a weapon, like a bow, with one of every energy type. This would start to get REALLY pricy though, after about the 3rd enchant. There are better things out there, really.

If you had something like my Flick build, you could Flurry, TWF, Rapid Shot, and Palm Throw Shurikens, which, with optimized Dragonfire Inspiration would net you a metric crapton of +fire damage. Of course, and thing with DR and/or Fire Resistance/Immunity is just gonna laugh at you...

Monk1/Bard4/Fighter2/Warblade8/MasterThrower5 could boost Dancing Mongoose giving attacks:

4 Mainhand
3 Offhand
2 Dancing Mongoose
1 Rapid Shot
1 Flurry
= 11 attacks per round, which doubles to 22 with Palm Throw

Now, Bard20 (Bard12 + Vest of Legends + Chaos Music) with Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, and Song of the Heart would grant +7 bard song, translating into +7d6 per hit, giving us 154d6 fire damage per round, assuming all hits, inflicing ~539 average damage before weapon damage and strength is factored in. Not the greatest, but not too shabby. My build does it with daggers, but you could easily replace Quickdraw with EWP:Suriken, and all you lose is 2 attacks per round, or about 14d6 damage.

NEO|Phyte
2008-12-15, 02:40 PM
I've heard of a certain Crusader build... *gets shot*

You mean the one that requires melee attacks, which shuriken can't be used for?

Draz74
2008-12-15, 02:46 PM
You mean the one that requires melee attacks, which shuriken can't be used for?

Yeah, but you can just get into Bloodstorm Blade cheese that lets you count a thrown attack as melee for all purposes.

NEO|Phyte
2008-12-15, 02:48 PM
Yeah, but you can just get into Bloodstorm Blade cheese that lets you count a thrown attack as melee for all purposes.

True enough, but that's an extra two levels onto the build. Much simpler to be a Small creature and punch things.

Mephit
2008-12-16, 05:25 PM
My build does it with daggers, but you could easily replace Quickdraw with EWP:Suriken, and all you lose is 2 attacks per round, or about 14d6 damage.

Ooh, that's an interesting suggestion. I don't really like Dragonfire Inspiration, but I can see wh you're going with this.
Minor nitpick: Shurikens count as ammunition, so they're a free action to draw anyway.

Keld Denar
2008-12-16, 06:21 PM
Minor nitpick: Shurikens count as ammunition, so they're a free action to draw anyway.

Exactly. And my build uses daggers. Search the forums for Flick the Flaming Dagger Flinger. Daggers aren't ammo, and thus need to be drawn as weapons, thus needing Quickdraw. If you changed to a Shuriken build, you wouldn't need Quickdraw anymore, but you WOULD need EWP: Shuriken...although actually, you wouldn't, cause Monk1 would ive it to you...never mind. Free feat. LOL!

Hal
2008-12-16, 06:44 PM
Shuriken can make useful emergency weapons because they're considered ammunition for the purpose of crafting special versions of them. So adding, for example, +1 flaming frost shock to a single shuriken only costs 640gp, compared to the 32,000gp it'd take to add it to another weapon. You can likely afford a handful of shuriken with more weapon properties then whatever primary weapon you have. They're also considered ammunition for the purpose of drawing them, so drawing them is a free action even without Quick Draw.

But as a primary weapon, they do leave much to be desired.

I could see this being a great utility thing for special situation weapons. I imagine Explosive or Magebane shuriken would be very useful. If you're multiclassing with Rogue, Deadly Precision shuriken would probably be nice, too, as you'll get off that sneak attack without having to worry about drawing a weapon or moving into range.

Starscream
2008-12-16, 06:55 PM
Yeah, poisoning them and using them as cheap magical weapons are the primary advantage. Also, I don't know if this is covered in RAW, but I can imagine that being made of metal they are much less likely to break than most forms of ammunition. If I were DM I'd probably allow them to be retrieved without a roll. Combine that with the magic thing and they can come in handy.

Hal
2008-12-16, 07:14 PM
Yeah, poisoning them and using them as cheap magical weapons are the primary advantage. Also, I don't know if this is covered in RAW, but I can imagine that being made of metal they are much less likely to break than most forms of ammunition. If I were DM I'd probably allow them to be retrieved without a roll. Combine that with the magic thing and they can come in handy.

RAW, shuriken have the same properties as arrows in terms of what happens to them when they're fired. Which is why they can be so cheap to make. Otherwise you could very cheaply enchant a +10 equivalent shuriken and then retrieve it mid-battle fairly easily.

Thurbane
2008-12-16, 08:59 PM
The Deep Dwarf Monk in my current party uses them to reasonable effect: 18 STR, FoB, RS, PBS, Far Shot...at up to 30 feet, he's shooting out 4 per round for 1d2+5 damage each.

Not great by any means, but not as bad as usual...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 09:00 PM
The Deep Dwarf Monk in my current party uses them to reasonable effect: 18 STR, FoB, RS, PBS, Far Shot...at up to 30 feet, he's shooting out 4 per round for 1d2+5 damage each.

Not great by any means, but not as bas as usual...The problem is that it is probably easy to deal far more damage with different weapons. What level?

Thurbane
2008-12-16, 09:05 PM
The problem is that it is probably easy to deal far more damage with different weapons. What level?
Level 8. It's his first time playing a Monk in 3.5 (last time would have been 1E).

We did all try to warn him against investing so heavily (in terms of feats) in shuriken, but he had the proverbial "bee in his bonnet". My group are far from powergamers (I'm basically the only one in the group who even remotely optimizes), so it's not a huge deal...the hard part is usually convincing him to put down the shuriken and melee. :smalltongue:

RS14
2008-12-16, 10:45 PM
I did once try to argue that returning can be applied to shuriken to allow them to return intact despite being ammunition. At the least, I still think it should decrease the rate at which they are lost or destroyed, as they can no longer be lost.

Hal
2008-12-16, 11:06 PM
I did once try to argue that returning can be applied to shuriken to allow them to return intact despite being ammunition. At the least, I still think it should decrease the rate at which they are lost or destroyed, as they can no longer be lost.

Where in the rules does it say that ammunition can't have Returning?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 11:14 PM
Where in the rules does it say that ammunition can't have Returning?Normally it can't. The entry reads:
This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creatureís next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character canít catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown. It doesn't work on ammo, since arrows cannot be thrown except as improvised weapons(though by RAW 'improvised throwing weapons' would be allowed, anything could be thrown then, which would make that line nonsensical). However, it does work on Shuriken, for obvious reasons.

Stephen_E
2008-12-16, 11:15 PM
With Shuriken been a thrown weapon you add your Str to damage which can be quite nice for creatures like Ogres.

Otherwise a Artificer/Master Thrower build can be very scary, with either Monk or Ranger for TWF or Flurry, and one level of Exotic Weaponmaster.
Artificer means you will always have magic Shuriken, and with a round's warning and an action point you will have shurikens that are Bane whatever you're fighting.
Weak Spot means you're making Touch attacks (no Str damage).
Palm Throw means you throw teo shuriken with each attack (no Str damage).
Two with one blow means you attack adjacent targets with 1 weapon (-4 attack).
Close Quarters Ranged combat means that you can use exotic ranged weapons in combat without attracting an AOO.

Stephen E

Animefunkmaster
2008-12-16, 11:29 PM
Returning

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown.


Thrown Weapons

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons

Ya, you can add returning to shuriken by RAW.

holywhippet
2008-12-16, 11:31 PM
You could use an enlarge spell to make the player a size category bigger. Or you could bend the rules and let them use large sized shurikens.

RS14
2008-12-16, 11:32 PM
Ya, you can add returning to shuriken by RAW.

Oh, you can. However, by RAW, they still have a 50% chance of being lost or destroyed.

Animefunkmaster
2008-12-16, 11:33 PM
Oh, you can. However, by RAW, they still have a 50% chance of being lost or destroyed.

/agreed. I was just supplying raw.

holywhippet
2008-12-16, 11:41 PM
It is strange that shuriken do less damage than a dagger. Traditionally a shuriken doesn't have a to be star shaped, it could be a throwing knife.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 11:44 PM
It is strange that shuriken do less damage than a dagger. Traditionally a shuriken doesn't have a to be star shaped, it could be a throwing knife.True but while a Shuriken would be designed for ranged combat(stated in it's ability to Flurry) they were universally smaller and less dangerous(represented by the damage dice).

Thurbane
2008-12-17, 12:58 AM
It is strange that shuriken do less damage than a dagger. Traditionally a shuriken doesn't have a to be star shaped, it could be a throwing knife.
If you're talking one of these babies:
http://i39.tinypic.com/67pgqs.jpg
I'd say it's 3.5 stats would be closer to a throwing axe.

Coidzor
2008-12-17, 01:27 AM
different types, different roles, different damage dice. yadda yadda. Of course, since one'd have to go through the DM to get a non-standard weapon in anyway....

Prak
2008-12-17, 02:22 AM
...you can also throw three shuriken as a single attack, IIRc...

...ok, apparently you can't do that anymore...

you used to be able to throw three shuriken as a single attack(per hand), (only one would get precision damage, such as sneak attack or critical). You could then pile on elemental enchantments, such as Fiery Burst, Shocking Burst, etc. and give them returning (which technically shouldn't work by RAW, but if you get rid of the stupid rule that says ammo breaks after use, regardless of how much damage it does, it would). When you get to epic up them to Fiery Blast and co., and give them triple throwing. Pick up two weapon fighting somewhere, etc...

ok, so to make this simple, play a Akatsukai Insectile Diopsid Thri-kreen Monk with Multi-Weapon Fighting and Co. that uses Fiery Power and Co., Returning, Distance, Triple Throwing Adamantine Shuriken
Akatsukai is a template from Oriental Adventures and can give you eight additional arms, Insectile is a template from Savage Species that gives you two additional arms, Diopsid is a template from a Dragon Compendium that gives you two additional arms and Thri-kreen is a race most easily found in XPH that has four arms to begin with. That's sixteen arms, each throwing three shuriken, each of which projects two force copies when thrown, and in a single round you've effectively thrown 144 shuriken, each dealing 3d6 crit-applicable damage each of Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic damage plus 1d2+str damage as a base, plus whatever the basic enhancement is on them. which is 432d6 damage per element, plus 144d2+(Str*144)

That's what the point used to be.

Jasdoif
2008-12-17, 02:27 AM
Oh, you can. However, by RAW, they still have a 50% chance of being lost or destroyed.It's a 50% chance if they miss, yes. It's a 100% chance if they hit.
When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, shuriken, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, bullet, or shuriken that hits is destroyed.So it's not really beneficial to put returning on a shuriken.

elliott20
2008-12-17, 02:27 AM
back in 3.0, the best use of shurikens was to go monk/rogue multi-class, then buy a bunch of returning chi shurikens +1, flurry, use one to deliver the stunning fist attack, and if it stuns, proceed to sneak the living bajezus out of the poor fellow. Since you technically could throw 3 for each attack, you basically triple the number of sneak attacks you can do in one round.

Seffbasilisk
2008-12-17, 03:11 AM
Well, when I played a dwarven monk, it was easy because I just simply braided them into my beard. (He took a vow of poverty...a bit far. Shurikens and sandals were his only equipment. His only equipment.)

Other than to give monks a ranged weapon (and the only ranged weapon they can flurry with), and the before-mentioned poison/cheap enchantments/RP distractions, shurikens don't have much use.

ericgrau
2008-12-17, 10:57 AM
Hold on, while I still don't think they're much, I thought of something. They are the only throwing weapon which is also ammunition. That means it's easy to add strength damage and yet also get multiple attacks. Including flurry, rapid shot, TWF or any combination. Slings and composite bows can be annoying at this. For a monk who's main focus is melee, being able to add strength to your ranged attacks is handy. That's why if I make a low level melee build his ranged weapon is a sling, not a bow or crossbow. But you can't full attack with a sling; there's no fast way to load it even with feats. So for the shuriken, the above plus portability, drawability, concealability and pronability is handy. I can see how they provide a pretty good range backup for a monk, but aren't the greatest primary weapon. Whoever was making a monk using it as his primary weapon was still being kinda silly.

IMO this and 20 other minor monk abilities people complain about are just there to fill little holes. It gets annoying when people try to focus builds around them. <cough> Wisdom </cough>. Ahem, sorry.

Signmaker
2008-12-17, 02:24 PM
Hold on, while I still don't think they're much, I thought of something. They are the only throwing weapon which is also ammunition. That means it's easy to add strength damage and yet also get multiple attacks. Including flurry, rapid shot, TWF or any combination. Slings and composite bows can be annoying at this. For a monk who's main focus is melee, being able to add strength to your ranged attacks is handy. That's why if I make a low level melee build his ranged weapon is a sling, not a bow or crossbow. But you can't full attack with a sling; there's no fast way to load it even with feats. So for the shuriken, the above plus portability, drawability, concealability and pronability is handy. I can see how they provide a pretty good range backup for a monk, but aren't the greatest primary weapon. Whoever was making a monk using it as his primary weapon was still being kinda silly.

IMO this and 20 other minor monk abilities people complain about are just there to fill little holes. It gets annoying when people try to focus builds around them. <cough> Wisdom </cough>. Ahem, sorry.

Yes, shurikens provide an effective way (for monks) to ranged combat without having to imitate Ryu. They also serve as a pretty handy bag o' tricks, and allow anyone with a throwing build to combine ideas from a Green Arrow build to allow some versatility to the usual "Palm Throw RAPIDFIYAAA" theory.

Burley
2008-12-17, 03:38 PM
Just want to quote a couple things from the SRD:

From the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsAW.html#weapons):
Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that hits is destroyed.
Emphasis Mine.

And, for the usefulness of shuriken, see:
Spell Storing (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsAW.html#spell-storing)

This is especially useful if you have a caster who doesn't mind loading you up, and you have Flurry of Blows. So, you get a few +1 Spell Storing Shuriken, and you have the ability to throw-cast anything your party will let you, including the Healin' Shiv.
Since they don't break (read above), you can just re-charge them later.

Stephen_E
2008-12-17, 05:07 PM
That's real nasty.

Take 100 spell storing shuriken and cast Poison on 25, empowered Chill Touch on 25, 20 Acid Fireball, 20 standard Fireball, and 10 Hold Person. Take a few levs of Master Thrower for the palm shot and ranged touch attack and you have rapidfire simle spell delivery.

Especially good for those spells that are weak as one shoters, but are nasty en mass. When your Monk/Naster Thrower tosses in acouple of lev 10 Fireballs as a surprise action it seriously munts the mooks, clearing the way to the real stuff. Any particular creature can ussually make the save against Poison, but against 8 Poison saves in a round. At least one of those will fail, at which point they're in serious trouble. Even more so if it was a Sudden Empoered Poison.

Sure there are down days when the partys casters just sit there casting spells inot your shuriken, but as a caster I sure wouldn't mind. Blaster Casters are useful at times and turning your Monk/Thrower into the Blaster Caster gkill two birds with one stone.

Stephen E

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 05:09 PM
In the real world, shurikens fall into the same category as pretty much every throwing knife: they serve as an excellent distraction but a poor lethal weapon. It takes an extremely lucky hit to cause life-threatening damage with them. So people either threw them in order to facilitate another action (distract and attack with a melee weapon, distract and run away) or poisoned them.

D&D doesn't really have rules to cover how flinching away from or defending against a thrown weapon distracts an opponent, so that leaves poison (or enchantments, which are similar) as the only effective shuriken tactic.

Though a house rule to allow thrown weapons to act as an automatic Feint (or a pseudo-flank, or denial of Opportunity Attacks, or something) would definitely be one way to bring them back into play.

Maybe if he's done some fighting styles, the "one empty hand and one one-handed weapon, but you Feint with a thrown Shuriken with the empty hand before attacking" could be a workable one.

Stephen_E
2008-12-17, 05:21 PM
Damn! Nice idea but see.


Ammunition
Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

Signmaker
2008-12-17, 06:59 PM
As for the Spell Storing Shuriken: Are you Sure?

There was a debate about this regarding arrows, and I'd personally like to see how shuriken dodge the "Wielding in midair" issue. Frankly, I'm always a fan of spell-storing, but sometimes it just doesn't work.

Proven_Paradox
2008-12-17, 08:20 PM
One honestly interesting thing you can do with a shuriken with a monk is use it to deliver stunning fists at range. Now, this also relies on you getting a stunning fist save DC that isn't laughably low, but if you can manage that, I think there's nothing stopping you from stunning at range with it.

ericgrau
2008-12-17, 08:46 PM
Stunning fist requires an unarmed attack. Stunning kick, yes. Stunning shuriken, no.

Stephen_E
2008-12-17, 09:07 PM
Stunning fist requires an unarmed attack. Stunning kick, yes. Stunning shuriken, no.

Partly correct.

Their is an Exotic Weaponmaster ability that allows you to stunning fist with any exotic melee weapon. There is also a "Ki Focus" magic weapon ability that allows you to deliver "Ki" affects, including stunning fist, with a melee weapon.

Unfortunately neither of these can be used with missle weapons, thrown or otherwise.

The best I can think of is use the EWM feat to throw a exotic melee weapon and then use the EWM feat to deliver stunning blows with a exotic melee weapon applied to the thrown exotic melee weapon. You could alos do this with Ki Focus weapons.

Then find a GM silly enough to accept it as RAW or with a weird enough sense of humour not to care.

Stephen E

Proven_Paradox
2008-12-18, 12:25 AM
Gah, I mis-remembered how monk special weapons worked--I thought all monk special weapon could deliver stunning blows, but looking at the Stunning Fist feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stunningFist) it looks like even melee special weapons can't be used for stun attempts. That said, I see nothing in the description that limits the attack to being melee only other than being limited to unarmed strikes.

So. Be a Kensai and get some dancing fists and you can deliver stuns at range. Good times.

...I guess shurikens still suck though.

Burley
2008-12-18, 03:27 PM
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

Yeah. Okay, I would say they're reusable, but, the rules do not, so, I concede on that motion.
However, referencing the bolded part, 8350 gp will get you 50 Spell-Storing Shuriken. That is, in my opinion, a pretty amazing deal. Imagine a Monk 1/Rogue X with that feat that lets junk stack. (Wizard/Sorc up the other side of a Gestalt build and get some Craft Weapon+Armor for even less cost, and free spells.) That'd let you sneak attack with a fireball, or even sneak attack with a hold person. Heck, you could sneak attack with magic missle.

Take Scorching Ray. Let's say that you have a bunch of Scorching Ray Shuriken.
A straight monk 20 could fling 5 of them as a full round action with three +17s, a +12 and a +7. Not too bad, since if it misses, there's a 50% chance you can use it again. When they hit, they activate with a possible 5 Scorching Rays. By 20th level, you should have at least a CL 11 caster charging them, which'd give you 3 scorching rays per shuriken, each dealing 4d6 fire damage. (Even if your DM says they don't auto-hit, it's only a ranged touch attack, at assumedly the same modifiers or better. If you're in gestalt, having that other side be straight rogue would allow you to technically apply sneak attack to all those as well, netting you an extra 135d6, if you catch them unaware.)
So... 12d6 per shuriken, or 60d6 per full round action. That only cost you 835 gp (if the caster was in your party and charged them for free...).
Also, since scorching ray is 2nd level and spell storing allows up to a 3rd level spell, if gives you some room for meta-magic. Energy Substitution would be especially useful.

Okay, it's not the most broken thing in the game, but it is still pretty good. It only costs a percentage of WBL to make your Monk a decent striker.

Zeful
2008-12-18, 03:58 PM
And how are you wielding the shriuken in the air Burley? It's the same issue that came up with the Spell Storing Arrow thread.

Burley
2008-12-18, 04:26 PM
The SRD Says:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isnít designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesnít have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a Ė4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

This uses the word "wielder" in the same context that the Spell Storing enchantment does. "Wielder" simply means "the person who makes the attack roll."
I don't want argue that point, because just about every build on any forum relies on the DM saying "Yeah, that's the way it works." Well, you can 'wield' a thrown weapon, and you are still considered the wielder until the attack is resolved, otherwise the bolded section would be meaningless. If you cease to be the wielder when you throw it, then you can't apply your strength damage, because you aren't wielding the weapon when it hits the target.

As long as the shuriken hits and does damage, the spells will go off. I think it's perfectly within the RAW and the RAI, even if it abuses them.

ericgrau
2008-12-18, 04:46 PM
And how are you wielding the shriuken in the air Burley? It's the same issue that came up with the Spell Storing Arrow thread.

That plus spell storing only works with "targeted" spells. I didn't realize this before either, but someone pointed out a FAQ entry or something on this; specifically in regard to scorching ray. i.e., "targeted" means the word "target" must be in the spell's stat block in the beginning of the description. Scorching ray has no such thing. Take a look.

Vampiric touch was then the popular alternative. But then we wondered whether or not it gave you the bonus HP.

You wield the shuriken when you throw it, but to say you wield it when it hits and gives you the option to release the stored spell (a free action), that's a bit of a stretch.

Kyace
2008-12-18, 08:08 PM
A trick I did in a one shot once was a Monk Shuriken Ranged Pin specialist. Any specific pin wasn't hard to break free from but x pins took x standard actions to break free from. Pretty one-trick-pony-ish, didn't really spend the time needed to make it very workable.

Hmm, I wonder if Fleshgrinding shurikens are legal...

Godna
2008-12-18, 09:33 PM
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsAW.html#weapons

Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that hits is destroyed.

I dont see shurikens in that list at 50% break chancing

NEO|Phyte
2008-12-18, 09:35 PM
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsAW.html#weapons

I dont see shurikens in that list at 50% break chancing

Because you're looking in the wrong place.


Shuriken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shuriken)

A shuriken is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding shuriken special options. A shuriken canít be used as a melee weapon.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

Stephen_E
2008-12-18, 09:42 PM
Re: Spell Stroing Shurikens.

If you have a Artificer in the party with the Artificing feats then producing Spell Storing Shurikens is no biggie, and as mentioned before it's well worth the time for the party casters to load them up. Cure Serious Wounds shuriken are also pretty juicy. Espeically if they've been Sudden Empowered or Empoer Metamagic Rod'ed (It's not clear with that increases the spell level for spell storing purposes). It's cheaper and more effective than a Wand of Cure Serious. In one round the Monk hits you with 6 Cure Serious Shurikens. Lose 9 hps and gain 18d8 + 60 hps.:smallbiggrin:

Stephen E