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pyrefiend
2008-12-15, 05:57 PM
A quick question for all you forumgoers out there: I'm making a thri-kreen rogue who wields two shortbows with his four arms. What kind of penalties come into play on his attack rolls? Are they +0/+0, -2/-2, -2/-4, or what?

SurlySeraph
2008-12-15, 06:02 PM
Do you have Two-Weapon Fighting? If so, I think it's just -2/-2. I'd like someone with more experience to confirm that, though.

Fifty-Eyed Fred
2008-12-15, 06:07 PM
A quick question for all you forumgoers out there: I'm making a thri-kreen rogue who wields two shortbows with his four arms. What kind of penalties come into play on his attack rolls? Are they +0/+0, -2/-2, -2/-4, or what?

I was wondering about the logistics of it until I read "with his four arms". Anyway, I would go for -2/-2 and leave it at that myself (I'm assuming you have Two-Weapon Fighting - otherwise you can't dual-wield without additional penalties, even with four arms).

mikeejimbo
2008-12-15, 06:21 PM
Naturally, the DM's word is final on that, but if he wants forum-goer's opinions, that makes sense too.

Unfortunately, I don't have an opinion on this subject.

NPCMook
2008-12-15, 07:08 PM
Instead of the Two-Weapon Fighting feats, you'd need to look at the multi-weapon fighting feats for multi-limbed races

BobVosh
2008-12-15, 07:23 PM
Instead of using bows you should throw those chakram things they got.

With greater multishot, and all that other love it gets. You can throw like 16 without optimizing too much.

Jasdoif
2008-12-15, 08:35 PM
A shortbow isn't a light weapon.

So your penalties are -6/-10 if you don't have Multiweapon Fighting, -4/-4 if you do.

NPCMook
2008-12-15, 09:00 PM
I'd say Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting Feat from Complete Adventurer, but that only counts for One-handed weapons. While the concept is interesting, your attack rolls will probably suck

pyrefiend
2008-12-15, 09:31 PM
I probably should have mentioned right off the bat that I do indeed have multiweapon fighting.

Instead of using bows you should throw those chakram things they got.

With greater multishot, and all that other love it gets. You can throw like 16 without optimizing too much.
I really, really want to, but I can't. I'm not proficient because although thri-kreen treat them as martial weapons, rogues don't get full martial weapon proficiency. I considered spending a feat on exotic weapon proficiency, but I can't afford it because I really need weapon finesse.


A shortbow isn't a light weapon.
No, but RAW states that crossbows can be dual-wielded as if they were light weapons. It doesn't say anything about dual-wielding bows, but that's hardly surprising since you need two hands to use one and the players handbook assumes characters with two hands.

Kesnit
2008-12-15, 09:45 PM
No, but RAW states that crossbows can be dual-wielded as if they were light weapons. It doesn't say anything about dual-wielding bows, but that's hardly surprising since you need two hands to use one and the players handbook assumes characters with two hands.

Any crossbow? Because there is a hand crossbow that is smaller than a light that could be used with 1 hand.

ericgrau
2008-12-15, 09:49 PM
Most crossbows, not just the hand crossbow, require only 1 hand and can be dual wielded by 2 handed creatures. Reloading is another problem, though.

Jasdoif
2008-12-15, 09:50 PM
No, but RAW states that crossbows can be dual-wielded as if they were light weapons. It doesn't say anything about dual-wielding bows, but that's hardly surprising since you need two hands to use one and the players handbook assumes characters with two hands.A shortbow isn't a crossbow, so what the rules say about crossbows is irrelevant here.

And I'll admit that I'm no archery expert, but don't bows normally require the use of two hands, one to hold the bow and one to hold the arrow?

pyrefiend
2008-12-15, 09:50 PM
Any crossbow? Because there is a hand crossbow that is smaller than a light that could be used with 1 hand.

I thought so, but apparently not. Light and Hand crossbows are treated as light, Heavy crossbows are treated as one handed. All of them except Hand also have a penalty for firing with one hand.

BRC
2008-12-15, 09:51 PM
A shortbow isn't a crossbow, so what the rules say about crossbows is irrelevant here.

And I'll admit that I'm no archery expert, but don't bows normally require the use of two hands, one to hold the bow and one to hold the arrow?

Thri-keen, Four Arms.

Jasdoif
2008-12-15, 09:52 PM
Thri-keen, Four Arms.Yes. But if a single bow requires two hands to use, it's certainly not a light weapon.

BRC
2008-12-15, 09:55 PM
Yes. But if a single bow requires two hands to use, it's certainly not a light weapon.

Yes, but what makes light weapons easier to use is their weight. 2-handed weapons take 2-hands because they are heavier. You could say, a greatsword is a 2-armed weapon, because it needs the strength of both arms to be wielded effectivly. A shortbow isn't much heavier than a Shortsword.

pyrefiend
2008-12-15, 10:03 PM
Yes, but what makes light weapons easier to use is their weight. 2-handed weapons take 2-hands because they are heavier. You could say, a greatsword is a 2-armed weapon, because it needs the strength of both arms to be wielded effectivly. A shortbow isn't much heavier than a Shortsword.
My thoughts exactly. Based on logic alone it seems like the attack roll penalty should be -2/-2 with multiweapon fighting, but there's no rules for dual-wielding bows so I'm not sure.

Person_Man
2008-12-15, 10:04 PM
If your DM allows 3.0 conversion, then you can accomplish the same thing with the Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207). Since its a PrC and not a race with somewhat ridiculous LA and racial HD, its a more optimal choice.

Jasdoif
2008-12-15, 10:08 PM
Yes, but what makes light weapons easier to use is their weight. 2-handed weapons take 2-hands because they are heavier. You could say, a greatsword is a 2-armed weapon, because it needs the strength of both arms to be wielded effectivly. A shortbow isn't much heavier than a Shortsword.Seeing as a shortspear (one-handed) weighs less than a light mace (light), there needs to be some other criteria involved here.

pyrefiend
2008-12-15, 10:15 PM
If your DM allows 3.0 conversion, then you can accomplish the same thing with the Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207). Since its a PrC and not a race with somewhat ridiculous LA and racial HD, its a more optimal choice.
My DM wouldn't allow it... he's a bit of a rules lawyer and we have to adhere fairly strictly to the 3.5 RAW. And as for the thri-kreen and its LA, I'm not too worried about it. The rest of the party is composed of a ranger and a warlock, neither of whom are optimized.

Setra
2008-12-15, 10:19 PM
Seeing as a shortspear (one-handed) weighs less than a light mace (light), there needs to be some other criteria involved here.
Ease of Use?

pyrefiend
2008-12-15, 10:32 PM
Ease of Use?
I guess so. The light mace is clearly the exception rather than the rule, anyway. The only one-handed weapons lighter than it are either exceptionally thin for a one-handed weapon (rapier) or made mostly of some other material than iron (shortspear, club, and whip).

Jasdoif
2008-12-15, 10:36 PM
Ease of Use?Hmm. You have a point, maybe I've been overanalyzing....

OK, I'm confident that a shortbow doesn't count as light for TWF purposes. I mean, a heavy crossbow isn't considered light for TWF purposes, but it's not cumbersome enough to prevent you from using it while prone. A shortbow, meanwhile, can't be used while prone; so it should have less ease of use than the non-light heavy crossbow, right?

woodenbandman
2008-12-15, 10:52 PM
I'd like to point out that dual wielding crossbows is more efficient if and only if you have a DM lenient enough to allow you to pull certain shenanigans... shenanigans which result in about 500 attacks per round, but shenanigans nonetheless.

Ranged weapons get shafted hard. Throwing weapons is really the only competent way to compete at a range unless you've got a few yards of height between you and non-flying opponents.

pyrefiend
2008-12-15, 10:54 PM
Apparently most four-armed creatures can't use two bows at once at all. The arrow demon from monster manual 3 has the ability to do so as an extraordinary ability, so I guess that means no one else can.

Jasdoif
2008-12-15, 11:03 PM
Apparently most four-armed creatures can't use two bows at once at all. The arrow demon from monster manual 3 has the ability to do so as an extraordinary ability, so I guess that means no one else can.The arrow demon has the special ability to fire with both its bows whenever it could make a single attack with a bow. That's quite different from the standard full attack you'd use with multiweapon fighting.

SoD
2008-12-15, 11:28 PM
If your DM allows 3.0 conversion, then you can accomplish the same thing with the Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207). Since its a PrC and not a race with somewhat ridiculous LA and racial HD, its a more optimal choice.

But then he wouldn't be an uber-cool giant bug!

skywalker
2008-12-15, 11:36 PM
Apparently most four-armed creatures can't use two bows at once at all. The arrow demon from monster manual 3 has the ability to do so as an extraordinary ability, so I guess that means no one else can.

Well think about it.

Are a thri-kreen's arms even shaped right for using two bows? Would have a bow above and below, using the same cross-body posture as humans, or would you have a bow on each side? When you think about it that way, a penalty for using the bows makes sense. Because a shortbow, despite being called a shortbow, is not really short. More short when compared to the longbow. I think with the interference the bows would cause with each other, and the lower bow being far away from your face/eyes/useful targeting reference points, I'd say you'd be lucky to escape with the standard penalties.

Person_Man
2008-12-16, 12:27 AM
My DM wouldn't allow it... he's a bit of a rules lawyer and we have to adhere fairly strictly to the 3.5 RAW. And as for the thri-kreen and its LA, I'm not too worried about it. The rest of the party is composed of a ranger and a warlock, neither of whom are optimized.

Well by RAW 3.0 material automatically converts into 3.5. There's a 3.0 conversion manual, and 3.0 -> 3.5 updates (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata). DMs ban 3.0 because they're not familiar with it, or think it breaks some sort of mystical balance rule (which is hilarious, because 3.0 is woefully underpowered compared to Complete Champion).

But hey, if he doesn't allow it, he doesn't allow it. It's his game world.

John Campbell
2008-12-16, 01:18 AM
I really, really want to, but I can't. I'm not proficient because although thri-kreen treat them as martial weapons, rogues don't get full martial weapon proficiency. I considered spending a feat on exotic weapon proficiency, but I can't afford it because I really need weapon finesse.
Dip a level in Fighter (or Ranger or Barbarian or other class that grants all martial). Rogue 20th is worthless anyway.

Grynning
2008-12-16, 01:35 AM
All argument here aside, since it's been determined that there really is no RAW on the subject, it's going to come down to a DM call...so...ask the DM. If it were me, I would let you do it, just because it sounds cool and it's certainly not a huge power boost (thrown weapons really would be better, see the above post).

skywalker
2008-12-16, 02:08 AM
Dip a level in Fighter (or Ranger or Barbarian or other class that grants all martial). Rogue 20th is worthless anyway.

He's already way behind on levels due to the LA and the RHD.

BobVosh
2008-12-16, 02:18 AM
I really, really want to, but I can't. I'm not proficient because although thri-kreen treat them as martial weapons, rogues don't get full martial weapon proficiency. I considered spending a feat on exotic weapon proficiency, but I can't afford it because I really need weapon finesse.


Dip a level in Fighter (or Ranger or Barbarian or other class that grants all martial). Rogue 20th is worthless anyway.


He's already way behind on levels due to the LA and the RHD.

Solve all three with 1 class and 1 feat.

Take a level of swashbuckler (martial proficency, gives you weapon finess) Take it until level 3. Take the daring outlaw (complete scoundrel). No loss of sneak attack, gain of BAB, loss of some skills. Depending on how you do class skills, this doesn't matter too much.

Prak
2008-12-16, 05:43 AM
Solve all three with 1 class and 1 feat.

Take a level of swashbuckler (martial proficency, gives you weapon finess) Take it until level 3. Take the daring outlaw (complete scoundrel). No loss of sneak attack, gain of BAB, loss of some skills. Depending on how you do class skills, this doesn't matter too much.

yeah, this is the best way to go I think. The only other thing I can think of is my favorite idea for a thri-kreen but it requires gestalting to be any good.

Darrin
2008-12-16, 09:17 AM
All argument here aside, since it's been determined that there really is no RAW on the subject, it's going to come down to a DM call...so...ask the DM.

There may be one way to do it by RAW, but it involves another +2 LA. Add the Multi-Headed template to add another head to the Thri-Kreen, and he picks up Superior Two-Weapon/Multiweapon Fighting. This ability removes all penalties for attacking with multiple weapons, and the text does not differentiate between melee or ranged attacks.

Also, you can ditch those racial HD by switching the race to Diopsid (Dragon Compendium, p. 10). You still are a bug with four arms, and the Diopsid comes with a custom ability similar to Powerful Build, but better in some ways. Only +1 LA. Adding another head bumps it up to +3 LA, but this is the same ECL as a non-psionic Thri-Kreen. Stats are not rogue-friendly, though... +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-16, 12:26 PM
There may be one way to do it by RAW, but it involves another +2 LA. Add the Multi-Headed template to add another head to the Thri-Kreen, and he picks up Superior Two-Weapon/Multiweapon Fighting. This ability removes all penalties for attacking with multiple weapons, and the text does not differentiate between melee or ranged attacks.

Also, you can ditch those racial HD by switching the race to Diopsid (Dragon Compendium, p. 10). You still are a bug with four arms, and the Diopsid comes with a custom ability similar to Powerful Build, but better in some ways. Only +1 LA. Adding another head bumps it up to +3 LA, but this is the same ECL as a non-psionic Thri-Kreen. Stats are not rogue-friendly, though... +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int.
Also, diopsid's second set of arms suck.

Triaxx
2008-12-16, 01:09 PM
Above and below works fine. Horse archers shot that way.

BobVosh
2008-12-16, 01:15 PM
Above and below works fine. Horse archers shot that way.

yes...sorta...and those were horse bows, not short bows. And still doesn't explain how the heck you can draw two bows unless they are small. I mean real small. Each one can't be bigger than the distance between each set of arms (on the side. Lets say the upper set is 1 foot from the bottom set.)

So you have 2 1 foot tall bows. Very small as far as bows go.

Lapak
2008-12-16, 01:22 PM
The more I think about, the more I don't see how it can work mechanically. You don't JUST use your arms to draw a bow; you generally draw across the chest, sideways to the target. You can do this because you're using hands on the opposite sides of your body. Trying to do that with two bows at once, even if you had four arms... I just can't visualize what kind of motion would make that work without getting the bows tangled in each other. You'd either have to use both arms on the same side (and only be able to draw the bowstring back a tiny effective distance) or... I'm not sure what else. And that leaves aside the point made earlier about trying to aim with two bows at once. They're not point-and-shoot like guns and (to a lesser degree) crossbows. If you DID draw them back with both arms on one side, there's no way you could do anything but shoot from the hip.

It sounds fun in theory, but I'd probably disallow it if I was the DM.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-16, 01:42 PM
yes...sorta...and those were horse bows, not short bows.

This is D&D. Short Bows = Horse Bows.

Ellisthion
2008-12-16, 02:10 PM
You don't JUST use your arms to draw a bow; you generally draw across the chest, sideways to the target.

More than that. To shoot properly, the main muscles used are back and shoulder muscles. You'd have to put the bows with one closer to your body, one further, to avoid collisions: even if the creature has independent muscles, the position the bows would be in would mean that the outer bow would be impossible to draw correctly.

There is no way I would allow this as DM. Ever.

Incidentally, I believe there was another thread a while back on this same topic. You can probably search for it.

Jasdoif
2008-12-16, 02:12 PM
This is D&D. Short Bows = Horse Bows.Indeed, the shortbow's description specifically says you can use it while mounted.

Yukitsu
2008-12-16, 02:17 PM
Just look at how arrow demons use two bows. The hold their bows at off angles on the same side, and draw them back with their other arms.

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 02:30 PM
My opinion: use crossbows light enough to count as Light for you. Then get a magic item to automatically TK a new ammo peice into the wearer's missile weapon whenever that missile weapon is fired. You choose the ammo piece from whichever container you want on your person, and it doesn't have a maximum number of uses per round. It takes you no actions. It's just a constantly-active item.

Then get your crossbows enchanted to draw themselves back without you having to do it, which means normally such a crossbow would not require an action to reload. This opens you up for Rapid Shot goodness with one of your crossbows if you like. It also means you don't need another hand to load, so you could wield a shield or something.

A nice little scam would be to mount a Buckler on the back of each crossbow such that you can attach or detach them as you like. They're separate magic items from your crossbows. If you use your crossbow that round, you don't get that buckler's Shield bonus. You can get only one Shield bonus at a time. But each Buckler can have other magical powers like Fortification and such.

So you've got the ability to use four crossbows, or three and a shield, plus you have the miscellaneous powers of whatever the four shields have on them. You can fire your full attack plus two or three others with offhands, plus Rapid Shot and whatever other feats you drag into this.

On the downside, this really requires you to spend money on these custom magic items. You're spreading your cash out across four weapons and at least one Enhancement bonus buckler, plus your ammo-TK magic item. You're using a low-damage missile weapon.

But even without spending money you can start on this right away. Buy two Light crossbows with mounts for the bucklers and two bucklers to put on them. Once you pick up enough cash for the enchanting of the crossbows and the ammo-TK item you can buy the other two crossbow/bucklers and start having your chosen enchantments put on them. So this character concept is usable at first level (or whatever the LA works out to).

mroozee
2008-12-16, 03:02 PM
The more I think about, the more I don't see how it can work mechanically. You don't JUST use your arms to draw a bow; you generally draw across the chest, sideways to the target. You can do this because you're using hands on the opposite sides of your body.

[snip]

It sounds fun in theory, but I'd probably disallow it if I was the DM.

I agree entirely. If you REALLY want to do a two-bow thing, make some kind of exotic weapon for him to use. Maybe a bow that is a complete circle that he holds with his bottom hands and can shoot with alternate upper arms. Or maybe something that looks like a couple of bows connected by a crossbar that he holds and shoots with the other hands.

pyrefiend
2008-12-16, 06:04 PM
Solve all three with 1 class and 1 feat.

Take a level of swashbuckler (martial proficency, gives you weapon finess) Take it until level 3. Take the daring outlaw (complete scoundrel). No loss of sneak attack, gain of BAB, loss of some skills. Depending on how you do class skills, this doesn't matter too much.

I think I'm just going to do this. Gythkas are pretty decent ranged weapons in their own right, and I wasn't really set on using two bows anyway. I'll take quick draw so I can full attack with the gythkas.

Prak
2008-12-16, 07:26 PM
My opinion: use crossbows light enough to count as Light for you. Then get a magic item to automatically TK a new ammo peice into the wearer's missile weapon whenever that missile weapon is fired. You choose the ammo piece from whichever container you want on your person, and it doesn't have a maximum number of uses per round. It takes you no actions. It's just a constantly-active item.

Look in Arms and Equipment, it has a magic crossbow with an extradimensional space full of bolts and an enchantment that draws the string back. 1+1=2.

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 07:29 PM
Look in Arms and Equipment, it has a magic crossbow with an extradimensional space full of bolts and an enchantment that draws the string back. 1+1=2.

Woah. And here I thought Arms and Equipment was all just rehash from Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue.

Guess it's more like 95%. Sweet.

Triaxx
2008-12-16, 08:37 PM
Typical Bow Draw |

Horizontal Draw =

Thus the upper pair is drawing one, and the lower pair is drawing one. The downside is that each bow can only draw the length of one arm, but that's okay, since they are short bows. There's also nothing that says you have to aim and fire both bows at one time. While one set of arms is reloading for it's next draw, the second set is aiming and firing.

Prometheus
2008-12-16, 09:00 PM
I don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty sure the Savage Species book addresses this question head-on somewhere (after all, it has a four-handed long bow in it and features double two-handed fighters). Unfortunately, it is 3.0 materials and there has never been an errata for it to convert to 3.5. So you'd have to convince the DM that on this particular rule, it was probably consistent in the conversion unless is says otherwise anywhere. I don't own the Rules Compendium and I don't know what is in it, but it might be there.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-16, 09:29 PM
Look in Arms and Equipment, it has a magic crossbow with an extradimensional space full of bolts and an enchantment that draws the string back. 1+1=2. You're mixing together two different things: the quick-loading enhancement (AaEG page 97) and the Self-Loading Crossbow (AaEG page 116). Part of this has been since updated, replacing the AaEG quick-loading enhancement with quick loading on pages 41-42 in Magic Item Compendium. However, there is no update for the self-loading enhancement for crossbows, which adds an extra 10,000 gp on top of the specific weapon. So you can have a quick loading (loads the bolts from an extradimensional magazine) self-loading (resets the string) crossbow, for a total cost of +1 enhancement + 10,000 gp + the base (minimum +1) crossbow. You'd be paying a lot for each crossbow for semi-automatic operation, but this combination can be up to a heavy crossbow (or even a great crossbow with reasonable DM's approval, seeing how great crossbows didn't exist when quick-loading was written up).

Prak
2008-12-17, 12:46 AM
You're mixing together two different things: the quick-loading enhancement (AaEG page 97) and the Self-Loading Crossbow (AaEG page 116). Part of this has been since updated, replacing the AaEG quick-loading enhancement with quick loading on pages 41-42 in Magic Item Compendium. However, there is no update for the self-loading enhancement for crossbows, which adds an extra 10,000 gp on top of the specific weapon. So you can have a quick loading (loads the bolts from an extradimensional magazine) self-loading (resets the string) crossbow, for a total cost of +1 enhancement + 10,000 gp + the base (minimum +1) crossbow. You'd be paying a lot for each crossbow for semi-automatic operation, but this combination can be up to a heavy crossbow (or even a great crossbow with reasonable DM's approval, seeing how great crossbows didn't exist when quick-loading was written up).

that's like a longer, more detailed version of what I said... I didn't mean to imply they were the same thing.