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Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 06:11 PM
The purpose of reschooling magic is twofold: first, certain spells in the preexisting system were, in my opinion, mis-schooled and should be moved to a more appropriate school. Secondly, reducing the number of schools available and redistributing the left-over spells amongst the remainder makes for a tougher decision when it comes to choosing a school of specialization.

Besides, the Eight Schools of Magic are unnecessary: schools of magic should be distributed towards their ends, not through some thematic appropriation that can be as easily defined as from one of the other schools with a good argument. Case in point: the ubiquitous fireball could be coined as evocation (invoking fire from nothing), conjuration (summoning fire from the Elemental Plane of Fire), or even transmutation (altering the very air surrounding the target into flame).

Therefore, there are four schools of magic: Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation. Each school of magic focuses on one aspect of magic: abjuration on protection and foresight; conjuration on creation; evocation on energy; and transmutation on alteration.

What About Sub-Schools?
What about them, beyond the fact that this variation from the norm will likely spread similarly-sub-schooled spells across the four schools. And that is fine! Sub-schools needn't be bound to one particular parent school: they are merely defining aspects of magic used to differentiate one spell from another.

The Four Schools
Abjuration
Abjuration focuses primarily on defense. Whether that defense be against physical harm, against magical forces, or even against scrying, abjuration covers it.

If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Search skill drops by 4.

If an abjuration creates a barrier that keeps certain types of creatures at bay, that barrier cannot be used to push away those creatures. If you force the barrier against such a creature, you feel a discernible pressure against the barrier. If you continue to apply pressure, you end the spell.

Conjuration
Conjuration focuses primarily on creation and summoning. Whether that conjuring be summoning a creature, shaping an illusion, or resurrecting a fallen ally, that is still conjuration's purview. Conjuration also covers most divinatory spells, as they create magical sensors in order to perceive in a different fashion.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Evocation
Evocation focuses primarily on manipulation of energy and damage. Whether that energy be in the form of flame, electricity, ability damage, or even something a simple as mending a wound, that is evocation's domain.

Transmutation
Transmutation focuses primarily on transformation. Whether that be be repairing an object, altering one's shape into a dragon, or even altering the very fates, transmutation has it covered.

Sub-Schools

Calling
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

Most calling spells are transmutation.

Charm
A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend. Most charm spells are abjuration.

Compulsion
A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Most compulsion spells are transmutation or abjuration.

Curse
Spells of the Curse subschool, unlike most spells, are permanent effects that cannot be dispelled through such means as dispel magic. Instead, they must be broken with remove curse, a specific reversal spell, or a similar means of overcoming the curse. Occasionally, spells of the Curse subschool have alternative means of removal, though these vary from case to case and are annotated in each spell's description.

Despite their permanent durations, some spells of the Curse subschool do not have immediate effect, instead requiring a specific set of circumstances to come about before the spell takes effect. Most spells have these set actions delineated in them specifically, but some more powerful curses allow the caster to set the required action at the time of casting.

Curses come from all schools.

Figment
A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Most figment spells are conjuration.

Glamer
A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear. Most glamer spells are transmutation or abjuration.

Healing
Certain transmutations and evocations heal creatures or even bring them back to life.

Pattern
Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells. Most pattern spells are conjuration.

Phantasm
A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Most phantasms are abjuration or evocation

Polymorph
A polymorph spell physically alters the shape of the target from one form to another. See the Alternate Form special ability for details on what a polymorph spell can and cannot do.

Scrying
A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.

Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.

Most scrying spells are conjuration.

Shadow
A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real. Most shadow spells are conjuration or evocation.

Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

Most summoning spells are conjuration.

Teleportation
A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable. Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.

Most teleportation spells are transmutation.

Spells

A
Acid Arrow - Evocation
Acid Fog - Conjuration
Acid Splash - Evocation
Aid – Abjuration
Air Walk - Transmutation
Alarm - Abjuration
Align Weapon - Transmutation
Alter Self - Transmutation
Analyze Dweomer - Conjuration
Animal Growth - Transmutation
Animal Messenger - Transmuttaion
Animal Shapes - Transmutation
Animal Trance - Abjuration
Animate Dead - Evocation
Animate Objects - Transmutation
Animate Plants - Transmutation
Animate Rope - Transmutation
Antilife Shell - Evocation
Antimagic Field - Abjuration
Antipathy - Abjuration
Antiplant Shell - Evocation
Arcane Eye - Conjuration
Arcane Lock - Abjuration
Arcane Mark - Conjuration
Arcane Sight - Conjuration
Arcane Sight, Greater - Conjuration
Astral Projection - Conjuration
Atonement - Abjuration
Augury - Conjuration
Awaken - Transmutation

B
Baleful Polymorph - Transmutation
Bane - Evocation
Banishment - Abjuration
Barkskin - Abjuration
Bear’s Endurance - Transmutation
Bear’s Endurance, Mass - Transmutation
Bestow Curse - Evocation
Binding - Abjuration
Black Tentacles - Conjuration
Blade Barrier - Evocation
Blasphemy - Evocation
Bless - Abjuration
Bless Water - Transmutation
Bless Weapon - Transmutation
Blight - Evocation
Blindness/Deafness - Evocation
Blink - Abjuration
Blur - Abjuration
Break Enchantment - Abjuration
Bull’s Strength - Transmutation
Bull’s Strength, Mass - Transmutation
Burning Hands - Evocation

C
Call Lightning - Evocation
Call Lightning Storm - Evocation
Calm Animals - Abjuration
Calm Emotions - Abjuration
Cat’s Grace - Transmutation
Cat’s Grace, Mass - Transmutation
Cause Fear – Transmutation
Chain Lightning - Evocation
Changestaff - Transmutation
Chaos Hammer - Evocation
Charm Animal - Abjuration
Charm Monster - Abjuration
Charm Monster, Mass - Abjuration
Charm Person - Abjuration
Chill Metal - Evocation
Chill Touch - Evocation
Circle of Death - Evocation
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance - Conjuration
Clenched Fist - Evocation
Cloak of Chaos - Abjuration
Clone - Conjuration
Cloudkill - Evocation
Color Spray - Evocation
Command - Abjuration
Command, Greater - Abjuration
Command Plants - Abjuration
Command Undead -Abjuration
Commune - Conjuration
Commune with Nature - Conjuration
Comprehend Languages - Transmutation
Cone of Cold - Evocation
Confusion - Transmutation
Confusion, Lesser - Transmutation
Consecrate - Transmutation
Contact Other Plane - Conjuration
Contagion - Transmutation
Contingency - Abjuration
Continual Flame - Conjuration
Control Plants - Abjuration
Control Undead - Abjuration
Control Water - Transmutation
Control Weather - Transmutation
Control Winds - Transmutation
Create Food and Water - Conjuration
Create Greater Undead - Conjuration
Create Undead - Conjuration
Create Water - Conjuration
Creeping Doom - Conjuration
Crushing Despair - Transmutation
Crushing Hand - Evocation
Cure Critical Wounds - Evocation
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass - Evocation
Cure Light Wounds - Evocation
Cure Light Wounds, Mass - Evocation
Cure Minor Wounds - Evocation
Cure Moderate Wounds - Evocation
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass - Evocation
Cure Serious Wounds - Evocation
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass - Evocation
Curse Water - Transmutation

D
Dancing Lights - Conjuration
Darkness - Transmutation
Darkvision - Transmutation
Daylight - Evocation
Daze - Abjuration
Daze Monster - Abjuration
Death Knell - Evocation
Death Ward - Abjuration
Deathwatch - Conjuration
Deep Slumber - Abjuration
Deeper Darkness - Transmutation
Delay Poison - Abjuration
Delayed Blast Fireball - Evocation
Demand - Abjuration
Desecrate - Evocation
Destruction - Evocation
Detect Animals or Plants - Conjuration
Detect Chaos - Conjuration
Detect Evil - Conjuration
Detect Good - Conjuration
Detect Law - Conjuration
Detect Magic - Conjuration
Detect Poison - Conjuration
Detect Scrying - Conjuration
Detect Secret Doors - Conjuration
Detect Snares and Pits - Conjuration
Detect Thoughts - Conjuration
Detect Undead - Conjuration
Dictum - Abjuration
Dimension Door - Transmutation
Dimensional Anchor - Abjuration
Dimensional Lock - Abjuration
Diminish Plants - Transmutation
Discern Lies - Conjuration
Discern Location - Conjuration
Disguise Self - Transmutation
Disintegrate - Evocation
Dismissal - Abjuration
Dispel Chaos - Abjuration
Dispel Evil - Abjuration
Dispel Good - Abjuration
Dispel Law - Abjuration
Dispel Magic - Abjuration
Dispel Magic, Greater - Abjuration
Displacement - Transmutation
Disrupt Undead - Transmutation
Disrupting Weapon - Transmutation
Divination - Conjuration
Divine Favor - Abjuration
Divine Power - Abjuration
Dominate Animal - Abjuration
Dominate Monster - Abjuration
Dominate Person - Abjuration
Doom - Evocation
Dream - Conjuration


E
Eagle’s Splendor - Transmutation
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass - Transmutation
Earthquake - Evocation
Elemental Swarm - Conjuration
Endure Elements - Abjuration
Energy Drain - Evocation
Enervation - Evocation
Enlarge Person - Transmutation
Enlarge Person, Mass - Transmutation
Entangle - Transmutation
Enthrall - Abjuration
Entropic Shield - Abjuration
Erase - Transmutation
Ethereal Jaunt - Abjuration
Etherealness - Abjuration
Expeditious Retreat - Transmutation
Explosive Runes - Evocation
Eyebite - Evocation


F
Fabricate - Conjuration
Faerie Fire - Evocation
False Life - Abjuration
False Vision - Abjuration
Fear - Evocation
Feather Fall - Abjuration
Feeblemind - Transmutation
Find the Path - Conjuration
Find Traps - Conjuration
Finger of Death - Evocation
Fire Seeds - Evocation
Fire Shield - Evocation
Fire Storm - Evocation
Fire Trap - Transmutation
Fireball - Evocation
Flame Arrow - Evocation
Flame Blade - Evocation
Flame Strike - Evocation
Flaming Sphere - Evocation
Flare - Evocation
Flesh to Stone - Transmutation
Fly - Transmutation
Floating Disk - Conjuration
Fog Cloud - Conjuration
Forbiddance - Abjuration
Forcecage - Conjuration
Forceful Hand - Evocation
Foresight - Abjuration
Fox’s Cunning - Transmutation
Fox’s Cunning, Mass - Transmutation
Freedom - Abjuration
Freedom of Movement - Abjuration
Freezing Sphere - Evocation


G
Gaseous Form
Gate
Geas/Quest
Geas, Lesser
Gentle Repose
Ghost Sound
Ghoul Touch
Giant Vermin
Glibness
Glitterdust
Globe of Invulnerability
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Glyph of Warding
Glyph of Warding, Greater
Goodberry
Good Hope
Grasping Hand
Grease
Greater (Spell Name)
Guards and Wards
Guidance
Gust of Wind


H
Hallow
Hallucinatory Terrain
Halt Undead
Harm
Haste
Heal
Heal, Mass
Heal Mount
Heat Metal
Helping Hand
Heroes’ Feast
Heroism
Heroism, Greater
Hide from Animals
Hide from Undead
Hideous Laughter
Hold Animal
Hold Monster
Hold Monster, Mass
Hold Person
Hold Person, Mass
Hold Portal
Holy Aura
Holy Smite
Holy Sword
Holy Word
Horrid Wilting
Hypnotic Pattern
Hypnotism


I
Ice Storm
Identify
Illusory Script
Illusory Wall
Imbue with Spell Ability
Implosion
Imprisonment
Incendiary Cloud
Inflict Critical Wounds
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Inflict Light Wounds
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass
Inflict Minor Wounds
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Inflict Serious Wounds
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Insanity
Insect Plague
Instant Summons
Interposing Hand
Invisibility
Invisibility, Greater
Invisibility, Mass
Invisibility Purge
Invisibility Sphere
Iron Body
Ironwood
Irresistible Dance


J
Jump


K
Keen Edge
Knock
Know Direction


L
Legend Lore
Lesser (Spell Name)
Levitate
Light
Lightning Bolt
Limited Wish
Liveoak
Locate Creature
Locate Object
Longstrider
Lullaby


M
Mage Armor
Mage Hand
Mage’s Disjunction
Mage’s Faithful Hound
Mage’s Lucubration
Mage’s Magnificent Mansion
Mage’s Private Sanctum
Mage’s Sword
Magic Aura
Magic Circle against Chaos
Magic Circle against Evil
Magic Circle against Good
Magic Circle against Law
Magic Fang
Magic Fang, Greater
Magic Jar
Magic Missile
Magic Mouth
Magic Stone
Magic Vestment
Magic Weapon
Magic Weapon, Greater
Major Creation
Major Image
Make Whole
Mark of Justice
Mass (Spell Name)
Maze
Meld into Stone
Mending
Message
Meteor Swarm
Mind Blank
Mind Fog
Minor Creation
Minor Image
Miracle
Mirage Arcana
Mirror Image
Misdirection
Mislead
Mnemonic Enhancer
Modify Memory
Moment of Prescience
Mount
Move Earth


N
Neutralize Poison
Nightmare
Nondetection


O
Obscure Object
Obscuring Mist
Open/Close
Order’s Wrath
Overland Flight
Owl’s Wisdom
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass


P
Passwall
Pass without Trace
Permanency
Permanent Image
Persistent Image
Phantasmal Killer
Phantom Steed
Phantom Trap
Phase Door
Planar Ally
Planar Ally, Greater
Planar Ally, Lesser
Planar Binding
Planar Binding, Greater
Planar Binding, Lesser
Plane Shift
Plant Growth
Poison
Polar Ray
Polymorph
Polymorph Any Object
Power Word Blind
Power Word Kill
Power Word Stun
Prayer
Prestidigitation
Prismatic Sphere
Prismatic Spray
Prismatic Wall
Produce Flame
Programmed Image
Project Image
Protection from Arrows
Protection from Chaos
Protection from Energy
Protection from Evil
Protection from Good
Protection from Law
Protection from Spells
Prying Eyes
Prying Eyes, Greater
Purify Food and Drink
Pyrotechnics


Q
Quench


R
Rage
Rainbow Pattern
Raise Dead
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Frost
Read Magic
Reduce Animal
Reduce Person
Reduce Person, Mass
Refuge
Regenerate
Reincarnate
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Remove Fear
Remove Paralysis
Repel Metal or Stone
Repel Vermin
Repel Wood
Repulsion
Resilient Sphere
Resistance
Resist Energy
Restoration
Restoration, Greater
Restoration, Lesser
Resurrection
Reverse Gravity
Righteous Might
Rope Trick
Rusting Grasp


S
Sanctuary
Scare
Scintillating Pattern
Scorching Ray
Screen
Scrying
Scrying, Greater
Sculpt Sound
Searing Light
Secret Chest
Secret Page
Secure Shelter
See Invisibility
Seeming
Sending
Sepia Snake Sigil
Sequester
Shades
Shadow Conjuration
Shadow Conjuration, Greater
Shadow Evocation
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Shadow Walk
Shambler
Shapechange
Shatter
Shield
Shield of Faith
Shield of Law
Shield Other
Shillelagh
Shocking Grasp
Shout
Shout, Greater
Shrink Item
Silence
Silent Image
Simulacrum
Slay Living
Sleep
Sleet Storm
Slow
Snare
Soften Earth and Stone
Solid Fog
Song of Discord
Soul Bind
Sound Burst
Speak with Animals
Speak with Dead
Speak with Plants
Spectral Hand
Spell Immunity
Spell Immunity, Greater
Spell Resistance
Spellstaff
Spell Turning
Spider Climb
Spike Growth
Spike Stones
Spiritual Weapon
Statue
Status
Stinking Cloud
Stone Shape
Stoneskin
Stone Tell
Stone to Flesh
Storm of Vengeance
Suggestion
Suggestion, Mass
Summon Instrument
Summon Monster I
Summon Monster II
Summon Monster III
Summon Monster IV
Summon Monster V
Summon Monster VI
Summon Monster VII
Summon Monster VIII
Summon Monster IX
Summon Nature’s Ally I
Summon Nature’s Ally II
Summon Nature’s Ally III
Summon Nature’s Ally IV
Summon Nature’s Ally V
Summon Nature’s Ally VI
Summon Nature’s Ally VII
Summon Nature’s Ally VIII
Summon Nature’s Ally IX
Summon Swarm
Sunbeam
Sunburst
Symbol of Death
Symbol of Fear
Symbol of Insanity
Symbol of Pain
Symbol of Persuasion
Symbol of Sleep
Symbol of Stunning
Symbol of Weakness
Sympathetic Vibration
Sympathy


T
Telekinesis
Telekinetic Sphere
Telepathic Bond
Teleport
Teleport Object
Teleport, Greater
Teleportation Circle
Temporal Stasis
Time Stop
Tiny Hut
Tongues
Touch of Fatigue
Touch of Idiocy
Transformation
Transmute Metal to Wood
Transmute Mud to Rock
Transmute Rock to Mud
Transport via Plants
Trap the Soul
Tree Shape
Tree Stride
True Resurrection
True Seeing
True Strike


U
Undeath to Death
Undetectable Alignment
Unhallow
Unholy Aura
Unholy Blight
Unseen Servant


V
Vampiric Touch
Veil
Ventriloquism
Virtue
Vision


W
Wail of the Banshee
Wall of Fire
Wall of Force
Wall of Ice
Wall of Iron
Wall of Stone
Wall of Thorns
Warp Wood
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue
Web
Weird
Whirlwind
Whispering Wind
Wind Walk
Wind Wall
Wish
Wood Shape
Word of Chaos
Word of Recall


Z
Zone of Silence
Zone of Truth

lesser_minion
2008-12-15, 07:01 PM
I quite like this. It makes things a lot simpler, removes pretty much any confusion floating around regarding spells, and it means that you can cast a minor detect spell and have some idea of what you're up against. And you restored teleportation to its rightful place!

The end result feels similar to the Ars Magica system in some respects (but without any 'pink dot' cheese...). I'm not sure about the complete eradication of all the potential 'schools-of-magic' fluff and symbology here, but this is elegant enough to make my plan start to feel needlessly complicated.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 07:04 PM
I quite like this. It makes things a lot simpler, removes pretty much any confusion floating around regarding spells, and it means that you can cast a minor detect spell and have some idea of what you're up against. And you restored teleportation to its rightful place!

The end result feels similar to the Ars Magica system in some respects (but without any 'pink dot' cheese...). I'm not sure about the complete eradication of all the potential 'schools-of-magic' fluff and symbology here, but this is elegant enough to make my plan start to feel needlessly complicated.

"Elegance" is the goal I have in mind in everything I create. Glad to hear I conveyed it here.

Starsinger
2008-12-15, 07:48 PM
"Elegance" is the goal I have in mind in everything I create. Glad to hear I conveyed it here.

Good, because standard 3.5 is bloated clunky and ugly. I have a question about said elegance. I imagine that there'll be a vast number of spells in some schools (Transmutation) than others (Evocation). Will this be rectified somehow?

Edit: Should Necromancy be a sub school?

Pirate_King
2008-12-15, 08:44 PM
It's a great concept, and I totally agree that some spells just don't make a lot of sense as certain schools. Still, getting rid of Divination as it's own school seems like an odd move to me. Scrying spells as conjuration seems like a stretch.

Gralamin
2008-12-15, 09:06 PM
It's a great concept, and I totally agree that some spells just don't make a lot of sense as certain schools. Still, getting rid of Divination as it's own school seems like an odd move to me. Scrying spells as conjuration seems like a stretch.

Thats probably the one complaint I have. Divination was the only school that there wasn't to much of a problem figuring out what it contained.

Pirate_King
2008-12-15, 09:48 PM
Edit: Should Necromancy be a sub school?

I think Necromancy is less a "school" of magic, and more a use of the schools of magic to manipulate undead. Conjuration to summon Undead, Abjuration to protect your undead from holy power, Evocation to use negative energy, transmutation to turn into a lich and such.

Starsinger
2008-12-15, 10:02 PM
I think Necromancy is less a "school" of magic, and more a use of the schools of magic to manipulate undead. Conjuration to summon Undead, Abjuration to protect your undead from holy power, Evocation to use negative energy, transmutation to turn into a lich and such.

Hence why it should be a sub-school

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 10:10 PM
Good, because standard 3.5 is bloated clunky and ugly. I have a question about said elegance. I imagine that there'll be a vast number of spells in some schools (Transmutation) than others (Evocation). Will this be rectified somehow?Yeah, I'll do what I can to balance things out evenly, even if that means making new spells.


Should Necromancy be a sub school?I'm considering making both Divination and Necromancy into subschools. Also considering making Divination the "fifth wheel" school, making its spells available to all wizards but denying any from specializing in it.

Starsinger
2008-12-15, 10:14 PM
Yeah, I'll do what I can to balance things out evenly, even if that means making new spells.

I'm considering making both Divination and Necromancy into subschools. Also considering making Divination the "fifth wheel" school, making its spells available to all wizards but denying any from specializing in it.

I kinda like leaving Divination out of Wizardry. As you said, Wizards specialize in Changing, Protecting, Creating, and Destroying. Leave the Divination up to the Cartomancer, possibly a divine class for a "The gods tell me the future" feel. But I don't really see Divination fitting in your Four Schools other than because it traditionally belongs there.

Draken
2008-12-15, 10:32 PM
I kinda like leaving Divination out of Wizardry. As you said, Wizards specialize in Changing, Protecting, Creating, and Destroying. Leave the Divination up to the Cartomancer, possibly a divine class for a "The gods tell me the future" feel. But I don't really see Divination fitting in your Four Schools other than because it traditionally belongs there.

I thin Fax meant make divination a school you cannot take as a forbidden school or as a specialized school. Not locking wizards out of it entirely.

And to say the truth, I like the setup of most of the spells as they currently are, necromancy being the oddball.

I wouldn't get rid of enchantment, divination and illusion personally. Not my project, however.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-16, 04:10 PM
I kinda like leaving Divination out of Wizardry. As you said, Wizards specialize in Changing, Protecting, Creating, and Destroying. Leave the Divination up to the Cartomancer, possibly a divine class for a "The gods tell me the future" feel. But I don't really see Divination fitting in your Four Schools other than because it traditionally belongs there.

That's a very good point. Hm.

So...what if I were to expand the Cartomancy skill to allow for divinations--low levels initially, and then higher with feats?

afroakuma
2008-12-16, 04:12 PM
Fax, basing this only off of Felicia's play style:

Divination and knowledge are already pretty important to the Cartomancer. Considering that you had the Foresight card out to bomb everyone with detection, I'd say it would probably be better as integrated abilities.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-16, 04:29 PM
Fax, basing this only off of Felicia's play style:

Divination and knowledge are already pretty important to the Cartomancer. Considering that you had the Foresight card out to bomb everyone with detection, I'd say it would probably be better as integrated abilities.

So you're saying divination should be the purview of the cards themselves, tapped into via the Cartomancer? Makes sense.

Also, PM.

AmberVael
2008-12-16, 04:35 PM
I think Necromancy is less a "school" of magic, and more a use of the schools of magic to manipulate undead. Conjuration to summon Undead, Abjuration to protect your undead from holy power, Evocation to use negative energy, transmutation to turn into a lich and such.

Necromancy wasn't even as distinct as that. Necromancy basically just was anything that seemed remotely "creepy" or "evil" or typical "black magic" type stuff.

Starsinger
2008-12-16, 05:46 PM
That's a very good point. Hm.

So...what if I were to expand the Cartomancy skill to allow for divinations--low levels initially, and then higher with feats?

That sounds pretty good to me. Divination as is, like I said, doesn't particularly fit with the 4-schools. Divination isn't Abjuration, unless you wanna stretch and say you're protecting information by taking it for yourself. It isn't Conjuration, unless you wanna stretch and say you're pulling the knowledge from nothing. It isn't Evocation, unless you want to stretch and say you're destroying secrecy. It isn't Transmutation unless you want to stretch and say you're changing your ignorance.

None of those are particularly solid, IMO.

Draz74
2008-12-16, 06:47 PM
Can you please explain to me the logic behind Charm spells being Abjuration? :smallconfused:

Fax Celestis
2008-12-16, 06:49 PM
Can you please explain to me the logic behind Charm spells being Abjuration? :smallconfused:

To keep Transmutation from being a god-school?

Draz74
2008-12-16, 07:00 PM
To keep Transmutation from being a god-school?

Well, ok, that much makes sense! :smallsigh: But Charm just doesn't fit with my mental feeling for Abjuration, so I was trying to modify that mental picture so it would somehow be compatible, fluff-wise, with all the things you have/haven't included in Abjuration as a cohesive whole.

PairO'Dice Lost
2008-12-16, 07:02 PM
To keep Transmutation from being a god-school?

Also, most of the time you use charm spells to prevent combat--"You don't want to attack me, 'cause you're my friend." It makes sense in either Abjuration (protecting you from hostile emotions) or Transmutation (changing their thought patterns), I think, so given the choice between the two now that Enchantment doesn't exist, I'd say Abjuration is reasonable.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-16, 07:20 PM
Also, most of the time you use charm spells to prevent combat--"You don't want to attack me, 'cause you're my friend." It makes sense in either Abjuration (protecting you from hostile emotions) or Transmutation (changing their thought patterns), I think, so given the choice between the two now that Enchantment doesn't exist, I'd say Abjuration is reasonable.

Thanks for justifying it in the fashion that I wanted to, but couldn't put to words.

thevorpalbunny
2008-12-19, 02:24 PM
Can you please explain to me the logic behind Charm spells being Abjuration? :smallconfused:

Because Abjurers are hippiemancers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0011.html). :smallbiggrin:

PinkysBrain
2009-01-12, 01:30 PM
Besides, the Eight Schools of Magic are unnecessary: schools of magic should be distributed towards their ends, not through some thematic appropriation that can be as easily defined as from one of the other schools with a good argument.


Transmutation focuses primarily on transformation. Whether that be be repairing an object, altering one's shape into a dragon, or even altering the very fates, transmutation has it covered.

If those are the ends of transmutation I fail to see how teleportation works towards those ends. Hell, I'd like to see you explain how summoning serves a different ends than calling. Old school prejudice is fine, but pretending to be more objective than Wizards at the same time is a bit much :)

Fax Celestis
2009-01-12, 01:35 PM
If those are the ends of transmutation I fail to see how teleportation works towards those ends. Hell, I'd like to see you explain how summoning serves a different ends than calling. Old school prejudice is fine, but pretending to be more objective than Wizards at the same time is a bit much :)

Objectivity isn't really the point here: it's more stripping down (what I see as) extraneous baggage/holdover from preceding editions that's no longer really relevant.

Also, stripping it down to four schools (maybe five, I'm still up in the air over divination and/or enchantment) is going to be pretty key to The New Wizard's mechanics.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-12, 01:45 PM
It might not be the point, but you were still suggesting there was more logic to your school assignment than Wizards. Calling serves the ends of conjuration as described, teleportation serves the ends of conjuration as described. To make these fit in transmutation you are going to really need a really twisted description of transmutation to make them serve it's ends better.

If spells are assigned to schools for other reasons (balance, because it worked that way in older editions, whatever) it's better to be honest about it ... because this one little change will require every splat book you use to also be adapted using the same "rules".

Is an inflexible vision of what you want the new wizard class to be really worth such a big break in compatibility?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 01:53 PM
It might not be the point, but you were still suggesting there was more logic to your school assignment as Wizards. Calling serves the ends of conjuration as described, teleportation serves the ends of conjuration as described. To make these fit in transmutation you are going to really need a really twisted description of transmutation to make them serve it's ends better.

If spells are assigned to schools for other reasons (balance, because it worked that way in older editions, whatever) it's better to be honest about it ... because this one little change will require every splat book you use to also be adapted using the same "rules".

Is an inflexible vision of what you want the new wizard class to be really worth such a big break in compatibility?

Actually, I see Teleportation magics to be easily within the realm of Transmutation, except in certain rare cases, which would be more Abjuration.

Transmutation is making something into something else. In this case, we are moving an object/person from one place to another. We are having Transportation by Transmuting the location from one to the other.

In rare cases, you may have a teleport designed to get you out of trouble (like Dimension Door), in which case, since it is protective in nature, would fall under the heading of Abjuration.

It's not Conjuration, because you are not creating anything new. You are moving it from one location to another.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 01:57 PM
I might be mistaken, but wasn't teleport classed as transmutation (alteration, granted...) in 2E?

PinkysBrain
2009-01-12, 02:07 PM
It's not Conjuration, because you are not creating anything new. You are moving it from one location to another.
Same as summoning, just with slightly different limitations.

Draz74
2009-01-12, 02:15 PM
I might be mistaken, but wasn't teleport classed as transmutation (alteration, granted...) in 2E?

Probably ... it even was in 3.0. Got changed in 3.5.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 02:46 PM
Same as summoning, just with slightly different limitations.

How so?

Summoned creatures are there for a short amount of time (rounds/level, generally), they do not die permanently, even if they die during the time they are summoned, and at the end of the spell, they go back from whence they came. In effect, you're almost creating a temporary 'clone' of the original to fight for a short period of time. This time will not impact the original in the slightest.

Teleportation is moving yourself from one place to another, permanently, as an instantaneous effect.

I see almost no parallel here.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-12, 03:43 PM
In effect, you're almost creating a temporary 'clone' of the original to fight for a short period of time.
What it's almost is neither here nor there ... what it is :

In this case, we are moving an object/person from one place to another.
You could rewrite all the conjuration summoning spells to fit ... by truly making them creation spells I guess.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 03:53 PM
Conjuration spells are about bringing something to you. Teleportation is quite expressly the opposite.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-12, 03:58 PM
Which explains why calling is transmutation how?

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 04:00 PM
Because calling is also a form of teleportation; it is a full drawing of a extraplanar being into this plane, whereas a summoning forms a temporary shell and binds the relevant soul for a brief duration.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-12, 04:07 PM
"A creature or object brought into being or transported"

That is from what was in the original post in the description of conjuration ...

Look, if you want to make summoning something else from what it's always been that is fine ... but it's not what you say, you aren't creating a temporary shell ... that is all after the fact rationalization.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 04:09 PM
I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow?

PinkysBrain
2009-01-12, 04:09 PM
Nevermind ...

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 04:10 PM
:smallconfused: I'd be more than happy to answer, I simply don't follow what you meant?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 04:12 PM
"calling is also a form of teleportation"

Begging the question there.

Actually, it's circular logic, not begging the question.

Conjuration is creating something that was not there before, but is now. Teleportation is moving something already there to somewhere else. Since you are altering it's properties (i.e. it's physical location), you are using Transmutation.

Calling is not creating anything either, it's bringing something that is somewhere else and bringing it back here.

Summoning is not calling. After the duration of a Summoning, the creature in question is not affected in the slightest for having been summoned. No effects carry over, even death. Calling means you're there, and whatever effects that happen to you will stick.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 04:15 PM
Look, if you want to make summoning something else from what it's always been that is fine ... but it's not what you say, you aren't creating a temporary shell ... that is all after the fact rationalization.


Summoning is not calling. After the duration of a Summoning, the creature in question is not affected in the slightest for having been summoned. No effects carry over, even death. Calling means you're there, and whatever effects that happen to you will stick.

Sounds fairly temporary to me. And that is what it has always been.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-12, 04:30 PM
I didn't say the critter isn't there temporary, I said the original flavour text (including the text in the original post) talks about transportation of the critter.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-12, 04:32 PM
I didn't say the critter isn't there temporary, I said the original flavour text (including the text in the original post) talks about transportation of the critter.

That is a failed copy-pasta and will be fixed.

...when I get back to this part of the project, that is.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 04:38 PM
That's pretty much what I'd been about to conjecture. Glad I was right.

Devils_Advocate
2009-01-20, 01:39 AM
I'm gonna have to agree with PinkysBrain here. It annoys me that d20's spells aren't grouped by function, but by flavor text explaining how they work. It comes close to letting you assign any spell you want to whatever school you please; just attach appropriate flavor text! Bleah. As you say,


schools of magic should be distributed towards their ends, not through some thematic appropriation that can be as easily defined as from one of the other schools with a good argument. Case in point: the ubiquitous fireball could be coined as evocation (invoking fire from nothing), conjuration (summoning fire from the Elemental Plane of Fire), or even transmutation (altering the very air surrounding the target into flame).

But you have not broken from this tradition. For example, cure spells transmute. They physically alter a creature into a less damaged state, like a mending spell repairs a damaged object. Saying that this is evocation because you use magical energy to do this (A) isn't any better than saying it's conjuration because you're conjuring the energy, (B) is not classifying the spell based on it ends, and (C) could be said of any damn spell you want to say it of. Hell, "uses magical energy" seems like it would apply to every spell (much like "changes properties", which justifies sticking any spell in Transmutation in d20, since it applies to any effect on anything).

To be perfectly blunt: Do not say "Unlike WotC, I'm not gonna B.S. you on spell schools", and then proceed to B.S. us on spell schools in precisely the same fashion in which WotC did. Not cool, dude. Not cool.

lesser_minion
2009-01-20, 03:38 AM
cure spells transmute. They physically alter a creature into a less damaged state, like a mending spell repairs a damaged object. Saying that this is evocation because you use magical energy to do this (A) isn't any better than saying it's conjuration because you're conjuring the energy, (B) is not classifying the spell based on it ends, and (C) could be said of any damn spell you want to say it of. Hell, "uses magical energy" seems like it would apply to every spell (much like "changes properties", which justifies sticking any spell in Transmutation in d20, since it applies to any effect on anything).

I'm going to have to dispute this.

If a Transmutation spell merely changed something, it would be a god-school - an important part of this exercise is to clarify the definitions of spells and remove overlaps, partly to remove confusion but also to balance gameplay. Transmutation can be busted back down to significant changes to the 'nature' or location of a target. Because a human being can naturally be wounded or unwounded, and naturally moves between these states over time, it cannot be healed by a transmutation effect, although minor transmutation spells to stop bleeding, possibly up to Cure Minor Wounds might be possible.

All four schools of magic can be viewed as god-schools - and then limited to some specialty, and this actually gives a nice thematic explanation for forced school specialisation - a wizard sees his magic in one of four ways, probably depending on how his gift is attuned. When an evoker casts a transmutation spell, he sees it as manipulating some primal essence - using it as a tool to reshape the target. There is some truth to all four outlooks. However, as far as clerics see it, their spells are evocations.

It might also be worth pointing out that finding the best allocation to serve the needs of game balance may trump the need to finding the combination that seems easiest to write fluff for.

WJLIII3
2009-01-20, 12:32 PM
I kinda like leaving Divination out of Wizardry. As you said, Wizards specialize in Changing, Protecting, Creating, and Destroying. Leave the Divination up to the Cartomancer, possibly a divine class for a "The gods tell me the future" feel. But I don't really see Divination fitting in your Four Schools other than because it traditionally belongs there.

Ah, but to get rid of the wizard with his crystal ball? It's blasphemy, is what it is.

vegetalss4
2009-01-21, 02:57 PM
The crystal ball could be a magic item. Just saying

Ashen Star
2009-03-06, 11:38 AM
Just a minor nitpick here, take it or leave it as you will. If you plan on reschooling magic and thus reduce the amount of actual schools, either remove Conjuration or Evocation. Those two words (Conjure, Evoke) mean the same thing. In fact, the dictionary references the other word in each reference.

Conjure
1: to charge or entreat earnestly or solemnly2 a: to summon by or as if by invocation or incantation b (1): to affect or effect by or as if by magic (2): imagine , contrive —often used with up<we conjure up our own metaphors for our own needs — R. J. Kaufmann> (3): to bring to mind <words that conjure pleasant images> —often used with up<conjure up memories>intransitive verb1 a: to summon a devil or spirit by invocation or incantation b: to practice magical arts2: to use a conjurer's tricks : juggle



Evoke
1: to call forth or up: as a: conjure 2a <evoke evil spirits> b: to cite especially with approval or for support : invoke c: to bring to mind or recollection <this place evokes memories> 2: to re-create imaginatively


Now, I know they don't mean exactly the same thing, but the similarity is incredible. The idea of Conjuration as written in the OGL is that it is supposed to summon, create, or call something into being that either affects a target or invites a creature to fight for you. Evocation as written calls up magic to directly affect or effect a target or targets. Why should there be a definite distinction between the two schools if they mean basically the same thing? And since you're already turning Calling, Creation and Summoning into separate "sub schools", the two schools end up doing the same thing, in the same fashion, with different effects.

Like I said, a minor nitpick. I fully support and expect argumentation, but I hope no one blows this off as "Ashen's wrong, so whatever." If Enchantment is making a comeback into the list (which it is, as far as I can tell, from the main d20 Rebirth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98722) thread), then that moves Compulsion, Charm, Figment, Glamer, Pattern and Phantasm (logically) into the Enchantment school. That doesn't really leave much to Evocation and Conjuration as they are right now. Combine Conjuration and Evocation, and that drops the total schools down to five, and none of the schools really steps on another one's toes. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, I'm just trying to help simplify something that's trying to simplify a pretty bad set-up.

lesser_minion
2009-03-12, 08:41 PM
I think I probably qualify as being partially in favour of folding Conjuration into Evocation and possibly simplifying the summoning spells. Also getting rid of the weird new 3.5 rule that apparently Conjuration can create nonmagical things that cannot naturally sustain themselves.

That would give you something along the lines of:

Evocation or Conjuration or thaumaturgy* Transmutation Some cool arcane-sounding word for destruction. Abjuration

Or, as known colloquially:
Thaumaturgists? Alchemists or Transmuters Destroyers? Abjurers or Protectors






*IIRC, thaumaturgists are miracle-workers. I'm not sure how best to translate that into in-game material.

theboredone
2009-05-20, 09:17 PM
Im new D&D but I have read the Wizard Secion of the player hand book and I think This is much better than the current system. It makes it alot easier to find spells and to know what they are meant to do or be used for. Also I just didnt like divination that much.

also you could call them exitimists or something. Exitim should be Latin for Destruction unless the weird translator I looked up lied to me.

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 12:04 AM
My one problem with this


evocation (invoking fire from nothing), conjuration (summoning fire from the Elemental Plane of Fire), or even transmutation (altering the very air surrounding the target into flame).

I don't think you actually addressed this at all. I'm not talking about in general, I mean this specific example still occurs.

Lappy9000
2009-05-21, 01:38 AM
I think I probably qualify as being partially in favour of folding Conjuration into Evocation and possibly simplifying the summoning spells. Also getting rid of the weird new 3.5 rule that apparently Conjuration can create nonmagical things that cannot naturally sustain themselves.

That would give you something along the lines of:

Evocation or Conjuration or thaumaturgy* Transmutation Some cool arcane-sounding word for destruction. Abjuration

Or, as known colloquially:
Thaumaturgists? Alchemists or Transmuters Destroyers? Abjurers or Protectors

*IIRC, thaumaturgists are miracle-workers. I'm not sure how best to translate that into in-game material.I think that separating schools into such a list would be a cool idea, although I believe Fax's goal is to make the system more balanced, simplier, and most importantly, more fun.

Personally, I like the idea of:
Conjuration (Creation; Combines Conjuration [creating], Evocation, and Illusion)
Figment
Phantasm
Necromancy
Shadow

Divinition (Foresight; Combines Divination and Abjuration [defensive buffs])
Curse
Scrying

Revocation (Annulation; Combines Abjuration [banishment], Conjuration [calling, summoning], and Necromancy [draining, destroying])

Calling
Curse
Summoning
Teleportation

Transmutation (Alteration; Combines Conjuration [healing], Enchantment, and Transmutation)

Compulsion
Glamer
Healing
Polymorph

However, there is a problem with re-flavoring magical schools: they all really depend on the spells in question. It doesn't matter what school a cure light wounds goes under if all you know is that it heals things. What you need to know is: Does the spell call forth positive energy? Does the spell change the physiology of the creature? Does the spell create new blood, tissue, and bone to replace the lost matter? Heck, does the spell bring about temporary foresight from the distant tomorrow allowing the creature to heal his own wounds by autohypnosis?

All that matters is how the spells are flavored. I think Fax should stick with...
Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Transmutation
...if only for simplicity's (and familiarity's) sake, make necromancy into a subschool, and flavor spells accordingly.

cherez
2009-05-21, 01:46 AM
also you could call them exitimists or something. Exitim should be Latin for Destruction unless the weird translator I looked up lied to me.

Well, you're not off by much. "exitium" is a word for destruction, though in a more fey sense. If Fax wants to grab some Latin for the name I'd look at consumere or perdere as bases.

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 01:59 AM
Well, you're not off by much. "exitium" is a word for destruction, though in a more fey sense. If Fax wants to grab some Latin for the name I'd look at consumere or perdere as bases.


Yes, the mighty consumer, bane of the gods and destroyer of worlds Fear their purchasing parity power!

No, I think consumere is off limits as a base :smalltongue:

cherez
2009-05-21, 02:08 AM
You mean to tell me "consumption" doesn't strike you as a powerful and enigmatic word? Consumptor the Consumptuous will not be pleased with you.

lesser_minion
2009-05-21, 02:24 AM
I think that separating schools into such a list would be a cool idea, although I believe Fax's goal is to make the system more balanced, simplier, and most importantly, more fun.

Wait a second... my suggestion was nearly the same as Fax's OP just with different names and drawing a little more on the Ars Magica rules (magic can be used to Create, Destroy, Transform, Control or Perceive).

The trick used in Ars Magica with transmutation was to look at what it could do, and then narrow it down to only the most fundamental changes to something. If we apply that here:

Transmutation as written could potentially be used to:

[LIST] Enhance things - e.g. Bull's Strength, Owl's Wisdom Diminish things - not really, but the spells that weaken things would otherwise be going to transmutation. Radically alter something - turn a human into a dragon or give them a property that they could not naturally gain Control - contolling a target's mind, giving it properties that it could gain naturally, such as location.

If you cut transmutation down to the third one (fundamentally alter something in ways which may be inconsistent with reality), the others fit neatly under the remits of Creation, Destruction and Control.

This gives you the following schools of magic and descriptions:

Evocation - spells which create, enhance or restore an object, creature or entity. Can be used to create fire, heal wounds, and even make someone stronger or tougher Transmutation - spells which radically alter the nature of their target, changing them into something they would never be able to become naturally. For example: turning into a dragon or a wolf Destruction - spells which annihilate, weaken, afflict or decay an object, creature or entity. Examples include curses, death spells, disintegration, spells of weakness and spells designed to counteract those of Evocation. Abjuration - spells of command, control and warding. Can be used to give creatures properties they can attain naturally, such as a new location, but still cannot violate what they are. Includes teleport, monster summoning, charm spells and spells which repel or banish creatures.



That's not perfect - it doesn't group spells according to ends, but it does group them by their actual effect and remains internally consistent as far as the fluff is concerned.

A few spells would change schools - for example, a Banish Illusions spell would be in Destruction, as would Dispel Magic. There would also be some confusing ones.

PId6
2009-05-21, 02:26 AM
If spells are condensed into fewer schools, shouldn't the benefits of specialization be greater? Otherwise it'd would be a pretty bad deal to specialize if you know you're losing out on 1/4 of all spells just for an extra spell a day.

lesser_minion
2009-05-21, 02:28 AM
If spells are condensed into fewer schools, shouldn't the benefits of specialization be greater? Otherwise it'd would be a pretty bad deal to specialize if you know you're losing out on 1/4 of all spells just for an extra spell a day.

The idea is to make traditional magic more like psionics - specialisation will be mandatory, and there would be exclusive spells to specialists in each discipline rather than the requirement to choose a set of barred spells.

Note that the current system is supposed to also be a case of losing out on 25% of all spells just for an extra spell per day.

Lappy9000
2009-05-21, 02:34 AM
Wait a second... my suggestion was nearly the same as Fax's OP just with different names and drawing a little more on the Ars Magica rules (magic can be used to Create, Destroy, Transform, Control or Perceive).The second half of my post was the important part, thar.

Edit:
I think that separating schools into such a list would be a cool idea, although I believe Fax's goal is to make the system more balanced, simplier, and most importantly, more fun.On review, I hope that didn't come off as me saying that your idea was unbalanced, difficult, and boring. Indeed, I'm in agreement with you, Lesser Minion.

lesser_minion
2009-05-21, 05:17 AM
Yeah, I guess I misunderstood that a little. Sorry about that.

Fax Celestis
2009-05-21, 05:22 PM
You can go ahead and ignore most of this thread for the time being. There will be six schools: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, and Transmutation.

Many spells will be moving around. I want to finish the Wizard first, though, to balance accordingly.

Sir Shadow
2009-10-20, 04:02 PM
I just have one question, any idea where you're putting Illusion spells? They could probably be split up between Enchantment and Conjuration.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-20, 05:19 PM
I just have one question, any idea where you're putting Illusion spells? They could probably be split up between Enchantment and Conjuration.

You can actually ignore this thread entirely. Spell schools are gone.

Set
2009-10-21, 02:09 AM
I just have one question, any idea where you're putting Illusion spells? They could probably be split up between Enchantment and Conjuration.

Where he continuing in that vein, Illusion spells tend to be divided up into;

spells that create images of light and sound (and colors), which would go under evocation, just like daylight and shout

mind-affecting phantasms, which would be enchantments

shadow magic, conjuration

glamers, such as invisibility, would be transmutations (manipulating pre-existing forces, instead of evoking them)

Illusion and Necromancy are two biggest offenders, being composed almost entirely of effects poached from other schools, and, in a few cases, leading to things that seem absurd, such as an Enchanter being unable to use Fear effects or a Conjurer being able to summon up entities or forces from the Positive Energy Plane, Nine Hells, Seven Heavens, Plane of Fire, Arcadia, Far Realms, Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance, Para-Elemental Plane of Magma, Pseudo-Elemental Plane of I Just Made This Up, Limbo, Concordant Opposition or Mechanus, but only a Necromancer being able to call up stuff from the Negative Energy plane.

It will be interesting to see where he's gone now, with the no Schools at all concept. Specializing will be a whole 'nother ballgame, perhaps now being focused on specializing in Fire spells or Cold spells or specific subtypes, like Shadow spells or Compulsions...

Sir Shadow
2009-10-21, 06:53 PM
You can actually ignore this thread entirely. Spell schools are gone.soo... any hints at what exactly is going to be? Somehow I feel it will be the downfall of vancian magic, which I will miss sorely...

Fax Celestis
2009-10-21, 07:10 PM
soo... any hints at what exactly is going to be? Somehow I feel it will be the downfall of vancian magic, which I will miss sorely...

Schools instead are thematic "academies" of a limited number of spells. Liken it to how ToB disciplines are split up.

Lappy9000
2009-10-21, 09:23 PM
Schools instead are thematic "academies" of a limited number of spells. Liken it to how ToB disciplines are split up.I can dig it. I eagerly await an example thread so I can get a full taste of it, though :smallcool:

lesser_minion
2009-10-22, 10:03 AM
How will these Academies work?

I'm assuming that it will be something along the lines of:

Wizard picks a small number of academies to study (you might want to try 'course', 'style' or even 'tripos'* - 'academy' doesn't really make sense to me as a term for something like this.) Each 'thematically appropriate term' grants a small list of spells, as well as a couple of different special techniques (arcane tongues?) that could be used to apply metamagic. There might also be the occasional feat that confers an additional tongue, but because you can only utter an incantation in one language, you can only apply one metamagic feat at a time.


* This exact term might be unsuitable, but something based on the same theme (an object that was ostensibly given to students in parts as they progress along the course) might be quite interesting.