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MammonAzrael
2008-12-15, 07:36 PM
What are some good core cleric feats? It'll be a 9th level cleric, down to 8th after crafting, melee buff oriented.

So far I have Power Attack, Craft Wondrous Item, and Craft Magical Arms and Armor. Since I'm going Human...what is another good feat to grab?

monty
2008-12-15, 07:38 PM
Extend Spell might be useful for you.

Grail
2008-12-15, 07:39 PM
Combat Casting, unless you've got ridiculously good Concentration to start with. Clerics in combat need to ensure all their spells work all the time.

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 07:50 PM
Combat Casting is a waste - it grows obsolete in a couple of levels after level 1, and when you're in melee as a Cleric already, you're unlike to be casting non-Quickened spells anymore (and can usually just 5' step if you need to). Also, it's horribly specific - Skill Focus: Concentration adds to all Concentration-checks instead of the set DC15 check to cast defensively, which you should already have over 50% chance of making on level 1 (2 Con+4 ranks), and we're talking about level 9 here, which means it's 100% (2 Con+12 ranks at the very least - probably more Con as well) as skills don't have natural fails. And nobody is picking up Skill Focus: Concentration - WoTC pretty much botched up with those feats. Really, Combat Casting doesn't even add to casting through damage. It's just worthless.

Extend Spell is a good one. Quicken Spell something you'll have to pick up later (on 12, probably - at that point, you can make use of it).

monty
2008-12-15, 07:52 PM
Combat Casting, unless you've got ridiculously good Concentration to start with. Clerics in combat need to ensure all their spells work all the time.

/obligatory

http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

MammonAzrael
2008-12-15, 08:15 PM
*nod* I'm probably going to pick up Quicken Spell at 9, for quickened Divine Favor (Unless you have a better idea). Extend spell sound like it could work well.

Thanks all!

Douglas
2008-12-15, 08:20 PM
set DC15 check to cast defensively, which you should already have over 50% chance of making on level 1 (2 Con+4 ranks), and we're talking about level 9 here, which means it's 100% (2 Con+12 ranks at the very least - probably more Con as well) as skills don't have natural fails.
Read the first footnote for that table. The level of the spell you are attempting to cast is added to the concentration DC. Still not exactly a difficult check, especially at high levels, and certainly not worth taking Combat Casting but it isn't quite as easy as you think.

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 08:21 PM
I knew I was forgetting something. Oh well, get a Con +2-+4 and it's all good.

monty
2008-12-15, 08:22 PM
Read the first footnote for that table. The level of the spell you are attempting to cast is added to the concentration DC. Still not exactly a difficult check, especially at high levels, and certainly not worth taking Combat Casting but it isn't quite as easy as you think.

So, a trivial difference at low levels, and a trivial difference at high levels. In any case, Skill Focus: Concentration is better anyway.

Saph
2008-12-15, 08:27 PM
Read the first footnote for that table. The level of the spell you are attempting to cast is added to the concentration DC. Still not exactly a difficult check, especially at high levels, and certainly not worth taking Combat Casting but it isn't quite as easy as you think.

It actually takes a while to get Concentration up to auto-success levels.

Assuming a +3 Con modifier, at level 13 you have 16 ranks in Concentration for a total bonus of +19. Lowest possible roll is a 1, for a result of 20. The DC to combat cast a 7th-level spell is 22: you still have a 10% failure chance.

So unless you can boost your Concentration check with items or spells, Combat Casting or Skill Focus (Concentration) isn't as bad a feat as many think. I've seen plenty of Concentration checks failed by a few points.

- Saph

Draz74
2008-12-15, 08:35 PM
So unless you can boost your Concentration check with items or spells, or somehow boost your Constitution score to ridiculous levels, Combat Casting or Skill Focus (Concentration) isn't as bad a feat as many think. I've seen plenty of Concentration checks failed by a few points.

Fixed. It's still not really worth a feat, though, even if it's better than people think. (And out of the two, you should definitely pick Skill Focus rather than Combat Casting! Unless Combat Casting is a prereq you need, of course.)

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 08:48 PM
Fixed. It's still not really worth a feat, though, even if it's better than people think. (And out of the two, you should definitely pick Skill Focus rather than Combat Casting! Unless Combat Casting is a prereq you need, of course.)

Well, prior to the release of the MIC, Con was not an easy stat to aquire for a cleric. Since Con and Wis traditionally occupy the same body slot (neck), the only other place to get Con was with a Belt of Dwarven Kind (gives +2 Con) or an IWIN Stone, which gives +2. The cost of a neck that gives +6 Wis and +6 Con using the rules for item enhancement was 36+36+(36/2)=90,000, which is pretty significant.

With the MIC, though, you can add basic upgrades, such as stats and resistance etc, to existing items, so you could add +Con to your existing Phylactery of Wisdom for the difference in the upgrade cost, or 72,000 for the combo item. Thats much more reasonable, and Con should be the 2nd stat increased by a melee cleric, considering Str gets a +6 enhancement from Divine Powah anyway, which wouldn't stack with a +6 Belt of Giant Str.

ericgrau
2008-12-15, 09:15 PM
Being a buffer is a trap too, though a cleric doesn't have too many other options. You need to be careful you aren't wasting combat rounds on weak buffs. Try buffs with a long duration so you can buff outside of combat, or use a buffing round before combat if you get the prep time. When you craft gear, give them damage enchantments instead of an enhancement bonus so that targets can still benefit from greater magic weapon. And damage enchantments tend to be worth it anyway.

Power attack can also be a trap. Don't use power attack as a medium BAB cleric unless you can get your AB pretty high. Especially at your level. See this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339). Once you get a decent amount of base damage, unless you're hitting on rolls of ~4 or lower w/o PA, you could even be losing damage to misses. If you're stuck with PA at least now you'll know to save it for the really low AC monsters and/or when you get your AB very high. Weapon focus could be a good choice; just consider the linked table in reverse. If you PA and lose damage, that means a point of AB is worth more than 2 damage per hit. If PA makes you break even then +1 AB = 2 damage, etc. Not sure what else you could take. You already have the good item creation feats. Extend spell might be nice, but then again a metamagic rod of lesser extend isn't too expensive if you only need it for a couple low level spells. Quicken spell is certainly nice, and divine favor is pretty good for a 1st level spell.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 09:31 PM
Cleave.

Underated. Free attack when you drop someone (and if your doing it right, that should come up alot) is a multiplied increase to your damage ability that should not be ignored.

Don't bother with craft arms and armor. Just buy +1 stuff and use GMW/GMV on it. Later, buy +1 heavy fort armor and a +1 keen holy sword and so forth.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-15, 10:06 PM
1) Ignore ericgraus power attack fetish. It's based on the assumption you don't hit very much, which never actually happens.


Cleave.

Underated. Free attack when you drop someone (and if your doing it right, that should come up alot) is a multiplied increase to your damage ability that should not be ignored.

Don't bother with craft arms and armor. Just buy +1 stuff and use GMW/GMV on it. Later, buy +1 heavy fort armor and a +1 keen holy sword and so forth.

2) Special rules for the game, crafting doubles WBL, short games. Worth it.

3) It goes without saying to GMW/MV and only get +1 stuff. That's how you actually play the game, and if you ever waste money on a +2 you fail.

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 10:16 PM
Don't bother with craft arms and armor. Just buy +1 stuff and use GMW/GMV on it. Later, buy +1 heavy fort armor and a +1 keen holy sword and so forth.

Meh, the advice about GMW/MV is valid, but why use a +5 weapon when you can use a +5 Wounding Holy Transmuting Collision Visous one? Base weapon is 100,000g, but you only paid 50,000g for it. Worth it to me.

Same thing for your +1 Blue Shine Heavy Fortification Energy Immunity Ghost Touch armor and your +1 Blue Shine Animated Soulfire Energy Immunity Arrow Deflecting Heavy Shield, which, combined cost another 100,000g for, but you pay only 50,000g.

So, you lose a bit of XP, but experience is a river, and you'll earn it back!

Kizara
2008-12-15, 10:18 PM
Meh, the advice about GMW/MV is valid, but why use a +5 weapon when you can use a +5 Wounding Holy Transmuting Collision Visous one? Base weapon is 100,000g, but you only paid 50,000g for it. Worth it to me.

Same thing for your +1 Blue Shine Heavy Fortification Energy Immunity Ghost Touch armor and your +1 Blue Shine Animated Soulfire Energy Immunity Arrow Deflecting Heavy Shield, which, combined cost another 100,000g for, but you pay only 50,000g.

So, you lose a bit of XP, but experience is a river, and you'll earn it back!

First off, core-only etc (MIC enchantemnts).

Second, you can also just BUY that stuff, what else are you spending your money on after the karma necklace, and a periphat +6?

ericgrau
2008-12-15, 10:20 PM
1) Ignore ericgraus power attack fetish. It's based on the assumption you don't hit very much, which never actually happens.

It's based on the assumption that you might miss if you roll a 2, which I think holds in most reasonable games. Just look at the tables. Even at the 90% row.

I mean, seriously, where is the high damage section of my table that I'm assuming people never reach? Above 90% hit rate? I guess I should be assuming that every roll is a hit except natural ones, and I'm underestimating players otherwise. I'd learn to ignore things after learning that they're completely made up.

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 10:21 PM
Boots of Speed
Phylactry of Undead Turning
Vest of Resistance
Cloak of Charisma
Metamagic Rods (all of them!)
medium to high level scrolls (Planeshift, etc)
Orange IWIN Stone

Do you want me to continue?

MammonAzrael
2008-12-15, 10:34 PM
Hmm, not sure when we switched to Items. :smalltongue: But that's cool.

And since it's core only, no vest of resistance, and no DMM (so I don't care nearly as much about turn attempts).

And I can't really afford an orange Ioun stone since I'm not high enough level to craft it and it'd eat up almost all my wbl. :smallsmile: Annoyingly, I can't craft an Animated shield, either, so I'll have to buy it.

And no, I won't be buying any weapons/armor higher than +1.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 10:42 PM
Hmm, not sure when we switched to Items. :smalltongue: But that's cool.

And since it's core only, no vest of resistance, and no DMM (so I don't care nearly as much about turn attempts).

And I can't really afford an orange Ioun stone since I'm not high enough level to craft it and it'd eat up almost all my wbl. :smallsmile: Annoyingly, I can't craft an Animated shield, either, so I'll have to buy it.

And no, I won't be buying any weapons/armor higher than +1.

Spend your current wealth on the mid-level necklace of prayer beads (the karma bead is what you are after) and the best +wis necklace you can afford.

ericgrau
2008-12-15, 10:51 PM
Since buffers don't rely on spell save DC's I'd be tempted to take the con necklace over wisdom. I mean, all you're getting is a low level spell or two.

Hmmm, as for gear:

Above mentioned stuff already covered most of it.
A circlet of persuasion can be a semi-cheap way to help your turning checks (a charisma check). There are other core turning items too to help keep it viable at higher levels, if you're into turning.
Utility scrolls. All your restoration type stuff, especially low level spells, should be on scrolls. Always be prepared, yet without wasting a bunch of spell slots on stuff that, as it turns out, you won't get to use for another few days. Ditto for any other utility spells.
Wand(s) of CLW, naturally, for all your between battle healing needs. Your own spell slots should only go to high level heals, and then only for emergencies.
Misc AC boosts. In your case that probably only means a cheap (low +) ring of protection and dusty rose prism ioun stone, since everything else is either covered by spells or has something else in its place. AC is always cheaper if you use more sources.
Random utility items. I really like marvelous pigments for example. Paint any mundane item in 10 minutes and get the real thing. Includes any random PHB tool, or even food, weapons, etc. Affordable too, since you effectively pay only twice the price of mundane (cheap) equipment.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-15, 10:56 PM
Spend your current wealth on the mid-level necklace of prayer beads (the karma bead is what you are after) and the best +wis necklace you can afford.

The Bead alone is worth 20,000gp if you don't craft, that's more then half WBL of level 9, so he can't even buy it.

If he crafts it on the other hand, he can have that, and a +4, and some other stuff.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-16, 03:12 AM
IWIN Stone
This just bugs the heck out of me. Could you please stop mangling this name? "Ioun stones" come from the Dying Earth stories, by Jack Vance. It's the actual name from a literary source from before D&D existed. You're doing the equivalent of saying "Elusive and the Magic Lump" instead of "Aladdin and the Magic Lamp". The original stones are detailed in Rhialto the Marvellous (http://www.amazon.com/Rhialto-Marvellous-Panther-Books-Vance/dp/0586065059/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229414855&sr=1-1). The D&D magic system is often described as "Vancian" because of the influence Jack Vance's tales had on Gygax and Arneson.

Is a little respect too much to ask for?

Blood_Lord
2008-12-16, 03:37 AM
This just bugs the heck out of me. Could you please stop mangling this name? "Ioun stones" come from the Dying Earth stories, by Jack Vance. It's the actual name from a literary source from before D&D existed. You're doing the equivalent of saying "Elusive and the Magic Lump" instead of "Aladdin and the Magic Lamp". The original stones are detailed in Rhialto the Marvellous (http://www.amazon.com/Rhialto-Marvellous-Panther-Books-Vance/dp/0586065059/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229414855&sr=1-1). The D&D magic system is often described as "Vancian" because of the influence Jack Vance's tales had on Gygax and Arneson.

Is a little respect too much to ask for?

I'm pretty sure it's a very bad joke because he thinks Ioun Stones are somehow really good, thus I WIN stones.

Which of course makes no sense, because Ioun Stones actually are pretty terrible since all they do is give you benefits you could get for less money with a slotted item.