PDA

View Full Version : Best-balanced 3.5 classes...



Flickerdart
2008-12-15, 09:53 PM
Now, we've had a quintillion threads pointing out why the Batman Wizard is a god among men, the CoDzilla is the master of the smackdown, and on the opposite end of the line, the Monk, CW Samurai and Truenamer sit in a corner and cry. Obviously, no DM wants to deal with either extreme on the scale of power.

So, here comes the question. What classes are perfectly balanced? For gits and shiggles, I'd like to keep the Bo9S out of this (since we already know how great they are). What classes can players not get slaughtered with out of the box, but still lend themselves to a degree of optimization and, most importantly, fun?

Important note, being a balanced class isn't a law of averages. Glass cannons that obliterate one type of challenge but get utterly mowed down by all others aren't wanted here. Then again, neither are mediocre jacks-of-all-trades that can't excel at anything but have no weaknesses...how do you let that player shine? Anyways, enough. On with the thread!

Personally, I'd say the Barbarian does a decent job of this. Armour, HP to spare, and things that make him not die, as well as a resource (Rages) that you still have to manage.

Lert, A.
2008-12-15, 09:56 PM
I find both the Psion and Psychic Warrior to be well balanced.

Draz74
2008-12-15, 09:58 PM
Well, a lot of classes are pretty "swingy." You can use certain cheesy optimization tricks to pretty much break them, or you can *really* not optimize them and they'll suck, but with a moderate bit of skilled optimization they'll sit nicely in between. (Warlock comes to mind, as does Factotum, and even Bard.) Or classes that are pretty decent, until they run into their Achilles' Heels. (Rogue, Scout.)

Tossing out a lot of good classes that are in those categories, I'd like to nominate:

Psychic Warrior
Knight
Ardent

EDIT:

I find both the Psion and Psychic Warrior to be well balanced.

Really? The Psion seems to be about the same power level as the Sorcerer. Not one of The Big 5, certainly, but still full-caster-style game-breaking.

monty
2008-12-15, 09:59 PM
Factotum, of course.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-15, 10:02 PM
Totemist, Dread Necro without any undead armies, Beguiler without adding anything to spell list, Heavily optimized Rogue, Psy Warrior.

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 10:03 PM
You need something to balance them against. With few restrictions, Wizards, Druids, Clerics and other such classes (Erudite, Sorcerer, Artificer, Archivist, etc.) are balanced against each other. They're just better than the other classes in such a sitiuation.


I'm going to assume you're talking about "middle of the road"-balance; powerful, versatile, but challenged by CR appropriates. I'd say: Psychic Warrior. Psion. Heck, most of Psionics (sans Soulknives, Wilders and Complete Psi). Ok, so Psychic Warrior and Psion. And I know you said no ToB, but ToB. Also, Binders. Factotums. You can make sucky Factotums, Binders, and heck, even Psychic Warriors if you try hard enough. With ToB, it ain't happening, even if you make a Warblade with the Weapon Focus-tree. Hmm, Totemist is quite good too, but they tend to require you knowing what you're doing. Ditto with Dragonfire Adept. Knight is actually a good one, although has the Barbarian-syndrome (below), but at least it has a great capstone.

Also, Barbarian is a decent example, but kinda suffers of the lack of versatility core melee has. It can be optimized, sure, but once you play Barbarian for 20 levels, you'll eventually get bored with the "Rage, charge, smackdown"/"Rage, trip, smackdown"-routine. I'd say Barbarian would be decent except for all the dead levels. Best example out of the core though, alongside Bard I think.

Duskblade is also decent, if a bit one-trick ponyish. Beguiler without too much spell acquisition also falls here. PHBII overall did quite a good job here.

Lert, A.
2008-12-15, 10:07 PM
EDIT:
Really? The Psion seems to be about the same power level as the Sorcerer. Not one of The Big 5, certainly, but still full-caster-style game-breaking.

I find the powers to be a bit more balanced than the Sorcerer's arcane spells, which brings the class down a bit.

There are always the insane power builds, but it is a lot harder - in my experience - to make such a build.

The biggest problem I've seen that people have with the Psion is the nova aspect that earlier level characters have, where they can just blow all their PP in a single encounter and then have nothing left for the rest of the day. Depending on the DM and his style of play - especially with the D&D "I stop and recharge my spells" mentality that often prevails - this can be a problem, but the same could be said for a lot of classes.

EDIT: I see the Binder mentioned. Love using that class and feel disappointed that I didn't mention it earlier.

Flickerdart
2008-12-15, 10:07 PM
Well, no, I didn't mean characters you can't make suck. Obviously you can pick Skill Focus (Comprehend Languages) and (Forgery) for all your feats and be miserably poor. We're assuming that the class is being played by someone who knows a bit about the metagame.

Just the same, a weakness or two are no reason to discount classes.

Keld Denar
2008-12-15, 10:09 PM
No love for the Dragonfire Adept, possibly one of the coolest and most overlooked PC classes in the game. So much cool stuff that can be had. Its basically infinite crowd control, with a bit of damage tacked on for good measure. Its like the wizard-lite. Same great taste, less game breaking.

Draz74
2008-12-15, 10:10 PM
@Eldariel:
Hmmm, I would have put Sorcerer, Psion, and Beguiler in the "overpowered" category compared to your "middle of the road." Though I love Dragonfire Adepts, I was even afraid to put them on my list, because I wasn't sure they weren't a bit too powerful.

Ardents, on the other hand, don't suck.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-15, 10:15 PM
Definitely seconding Binders and the invoking classes as being nicely balanced (and easy to track as well.)

The "specialist" sorcerors could fall into that category pretty easily. Warmage, dread necro and beguiler. Yes. Even the much belittled warmage is relatively well balanced.

Eldariel
2008-12-15, 10:17 PM
@Eldariel:
Hmmm, I would have put Sorcerer, Psion, and Beguiler in the "overpowered" category compared to your "middle of the road." Though I love Dragonfire Adepts, I was even afraid to put them on my list, because I wasn't sure they weren't a bit too powerful.

Ardents, on the other hand, don't suck.

I put Sorcerer there. Beguiler with just Beguiler-spells is merely "strong". Psion, likewise, doesn't really break things outside infinite PP multiaction novas (although since its potentional for brokenness comes from inherent class features, I suppose it could be listed as broken). Also, agreed on Ardent. I just wanted to manifest my hatred for Comp Psi, so I failed to list them.

Dragonfire Adept? Definitely right in the middle.

Bassikpoet
2008-12-15, 10:18 PM
Maybe my opti-fu is not quite over 9000 yet but I tend to think:

Warlock
Barbarian
Rogue
Duskblade
Favored Soul

They come out of the box simple direct and good at what they do, without blowing anything out of the water.

They each have versatility without taking over the roles of others members of the party.

Starscream
2008-12-15, 10:18 PM
I'd say Dread Necromancers are a rare case of a full caster who isn't overpowered. Psionics, as has been previously pointed out, also tends to be pretty balanced. In terms of combat classes, Rangers, Rogues, Swashbucklers and Scouts are all pretty good.

Draz74
2008-12-15, 10:36 PM
Beguiler with just Beguiler-spells is merely "strong".
People keep specifying that. What other spells would it have? I thought it had a very specific spell list in the PHB2, and that (almost) nobody houseruled it to be bigger or smaller than it is.

Unless you're talking about cutting the Beguiler down to a smaller list than most people use with it, I still think it's definitely on the "too powerful" side. Just compare it with the Rogue, which would be a pretty decent middle-ground class if it didn't have its Achilles Heel or specific (UMD) abuses.


Dragonfire Adept? Definitely right in the middle.

Good to hear.

monty
2008-12-15, 10:38 PM
People keep specifying that. What other spells would it have? I thought it had a very specific spell list in the PHB2, and that (almost) nobody houseruled it to be bigger or smaller than it is.

Rainbow Servant, for example.

Graymayre
2008-12-15, 10:40 PM
I'm sorry to intrude, but I seem to be lacking in Giantitp vernacular.

What is a CoDzilla and a ToB?


I wouldn't be surprised to be lambasted for saying this, but I'm throwing paladin in as a generally balanced class.

Flickerdart
2008-12-15, 10:40 PM
People keep specifying that. What other spells would it have? I thought it had a very specific spell list in the PHB2, and that (almost) nobody houseruled it to be bigger or smaller than it is.

Unless you're talking about cutting the Beguiler down to a smaller list than most people use with it, I still think it's definitely on the "too powerful" side. Just compare it with the Rogue, which would be a pretty decent middle-ground class if it didn't have its Achilles Heel or specific (UMD) abuses.



Good to hear.

I think people are referring to their Advanced Learning, which lets them add a spell from, I believe, the Illusion school to their list once in a while. Warmages get the same thing but from Evocation, except Warmages suck.


I'm sorry to intrude, but I seem to be lacking in Giantitp vernacular.

What is a CoDzilla and a ToB?


I wouldn't be surprised to be lambasted for saying this, but I'm throwing paladin in as a generally balanced class.

ToB: Tome of Battle, which introduces a system to make melee characters be more effective.

CoDzilla: Cleric or Druid -zilla, a way of building the aforementioned Divine casting classes that makes them into melee monsters. Both classes have access to powerful buffs, which Clerics can make to last all day with Divine Metamagic Persist, and Druids can use buffs in conjunction with their Wildshape forms for brutal efficiency.

monty
2008-12-15, 10:43 PM
I'm sorry to intrude, but I seem to be lacking in Giantitp vernacular.

What is a CoDzilla and a ToB?


I wouldn't be surprised to be lambasted for saying this, but I'm throwing paladin in as a generally balanced class.

CoDzilla stands for Cleric or Druid 'zilla (as in Godzilla). Basically, a cleric or druid that's really good in melee.

ToB stands for Tome of Battle, a book with a good melee system.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-12-15, 10:43 PM
People keep specifying that. What other spells would it have? I thought it had a very specific spell list in the PHB2, and that (almost) nobody houseruled it to be bigger or smaller than it is.

Unless you're talking about cutting the Beguiler down to a smaller list than most people use with it, I still think it's definitely on the "too powerful" side. Just compare it with the Rogue, which would be a pretty decent middle-ground class if it didn't have its Achilles Heel or specific (UMD) abuses.



Good to hear.

They get Advanced Learning, too.

For me:

1. Warlock
2. Dragonfire Adept
3. Rogue
4. Barbarian
5. Dread Necromancer?
6. Binder
7. Bard
8. Duskblade
9. Knight
10. Psychic Warrior
11. Hexblade
12. Warmage

Those are all over the middle of the power scale, with only Dread Necromancer being iffy in my opinion.

mikeejimbo
2008-12-15, 10:58 PM
The Rogue. The Bard can be, depending on how you build them. The Monk also, though they tend to be more balanced than the Bard.

Hmm...what other classes have Balance as a class skill?*

*This post contains 100% your daily dosage of inane silliness.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-15, 11:00 PM
Warlock is a surprisingly balanced class. It can do useful things all day long.

monty
2008-12-15, 11:00 PM
The Monk also

Wait, what?

mikeejimbo
2008-12-15, 11:01 PM
Wait, what?

Well, they have Balance as a class skill, and generally a decent Dex (for their AC). If they put ranks into it, they'll hardly ever fall! Hence, best-Balanced. :smalltongue:

monty
2008-12-15, 11:02 PM
Well, they have Balance as a class skill, and generally a decent Dex (for their AC). If they put ranks into it, they'll hardly ever fall! Hence, best-Balanced. :smalltongue:

Can they afford those skill points, though, with their MAD?

mikeejimbo
2008-12-15, 11:04 PM
Can they afford those skill points, though, with their MAD?

Ah, true! Their INT usually isn't great.

You could build a Monk who could Balance very well, but coincidentally, and humorously, he wouldn't be game-mechanically balanced.

AslanCross
2008-12-15, 11:17 PM
Rogue. They can do what their class description says they do, at least.

BobVosh
2008-12-15, 11:23 PM
heh. Warmage.

*waits for the inevitable warmage hate*

Flickerdart
2008-12-15, 11:27 PM
Well, they have Balance as a class skill, and generally a decent Dex (for their AC). If they put ranks into it, they'll hardly ever fall! Hence, best-Balanced. :smalltongue:
Druid, you didn't put any points into Balance? You fall.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Seatbelt
2008-12-15, 11:32 PM
*hates on the warmage*

Vortling
2008-12-15, 11:47 PM
I'll put votes in for the rogue, warlock, favored soul, factotum and beguiler. I say something is balanced when it can do something well, but not all things well.

Proven_Paradox
2008-12-15, 11:48 PM
The way I see it, this kind of question is difficult to answer because you have to have a benchmark. If monk is your benchmark, then CWar samurai is totally balanced. If a core-only fighter is your benchmark, then a warblade is overpowered, while if a batman wizard is your benchmark that warblade seems pretty weak. What is the balance level? My kneejerk reaction is "someone who has a 50/50 chance of defeating another creature of equivalent CR," but the CR system is so jacked up that the answer to that question depends entirely on what that other creature is.

So you can accurately say things like "X class is balanced with Y challenge" but you cannot accurately say that "X class is balanced." The question is dependent on so many variables, you can't really ask it and hope for a reasonable answer.

Bassikpoet
2008-12-16, 01:12 AM
Well, if we take balance to be the medium point between two extremes, we just need to find the two extremes.

In the "so weak, I would rather play as a cardboard box" category, we have the CW samurai who can't do what he was designed to do and the commoner, which was designed to do nothing.

In the "I'm so strong that other party members simply weigh me down" category, we have the wizard. The wizard can do anything anyone else can do and do it better.

So therefore, the middle of the road would be something that was both designed to fill a niche in a party and can do it well.


Balanced
The rogue was designed to be a skill monkey to take care of things outside of combat. It does it well. However, when it comes to battle, where fighters and others should shine, it fades to the background. There are situations where its good and situations where it is not so good. It is balanced.

Unbalanced
The monk was designed to be a mobile damage dealer. It's speed points to this. However, the fact that its main combat strategy relies on being stationary, this movement is wasted. The only time a monk can be useful is when you need to get somewhere really fast or jump really far. The monk is unbalanced.

The druid was designed to be nature's hand in the world. With wild shape, an animal companion and nature-based casting, it succeeds in this goal. However, in doing so, it can also take over for other PC classes. Some wild shapes are better fighters than fighters, while their spells can emulate things that other classes can do. The druid is unbalanced.

In essence, a balanced class is a class that does what it is supposed to do without overshadowing other classes or being overshadowed.

Classes that fulfil this requirement. I am sticking to core and the complete books, as that is all I really know.

Barbarian (no one can do as much damage in melee as a barbarian.)
Rogue (as mentioned above)
Scout (movement-based combat. What the monk and ranger should have been.)
Favored Soul (healing and buffing and not many more spell slots for crazy stuff)
Warlock (arcane damage dealing and status effects)

Person_Man
2008-12-16, 12:39 PM
For me balance is defined as having something interesting and useful to do every combat and at least occasionally out of combat. And when you do your thing, its not so powerful that it steals the spotlight from other players every time you use it.

In particular, I prefer classes that are balanced with once per round and/or encounter abilities (Invocations, Maneuvers), rather then per day abilities (spells, Smite, Stunning Fist) which carry the threat of nova (I cast 4 spells this round, here's how...) and/or having to worry about rationing. But there are only 3 or 4 classes like that in 3.5, so you're often stuck with having to nerf full casters or buff melee types instead.

My list:

Dragonfire Adept
Warlock
Factotum
ToB material
Knight
Beguiler
Dragon Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99253)
Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97025)
Domain Favored Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57097)
Force Unleashed Apprentice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92407)

I'd also add that there are a lot of feats and variants that make otherwise weak classes playable. Sword of the Arcane Order lets Paladin's and Rangers memorize Wizard spells, for example. The Wildshape Ranger (www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm) is a much less broken alternative to the Druid. The Leadership feat with any PC can balance out even the weakest build. Etc.

Telonius
2008-12-16, 12:53 PM
Rogue
Knight
Barbarian
Bard
Scout

I really, really want to list Warlock too. The concept is terrific, it's generally playable, but the damage output is a little bit too weak for me. If it had just a little bit more oomph out of the can - d8's for Eldritch Blast, maybe - I'd have no problem listing it.

Neithan
2008-12-16, 01:59 PM
Has there really ever been anything that was really balanced?

And what's the benchmark for balance?

Zenos
2008-12-16, 02:35 PM
I second ToB, Psionics, Beguilder, Knight, Factotum, Bard (unless you use the same degree of brie that can make a fighter rather effective). I also think Spellthief is fairly balanced. This might be my opinion, but a Wu-Jen has enough limitations to be semi-balanced.

Person_Man
2008-12-16, 03:07 PM
And what's the benchmark for balance?

Have the DM and the players sit down together, with every source book that will be used during the campaign. The DM should talk about his campaign world, a general overview of where the characters will be adventuring (you're going to be in a desert the entire time - don't bother with the Swim Skill), and what levels the campaign will start at and go through. Each player should talk about the character they want to make, their alignment/personality/backstory, what Skills they will most likely invest in, and what tactics/spells/whatever they generally like to use during combat. The players and DM come to a general agreement as to the party's power level, and discuss what mechanics (if any) should be off limits (Polymorph, Divine Metamagic). A good general guideline is that players should be able to do anything they want within the rules, with the understanding that they will encounter enemies using mechanics that are similarly weak or powerful, and that no one player should significantly out shine the other players. If some players are new, then veteran players should be encouraged to play Skill Monkeys and/or support classes. If everyone is a veteran, they should be prepared to fight Tiamat. Everybody (myself included) has different ideas of what a balanced class is. It's not a measurable quantity. It's a normative goal - one of many needed to play and enjoy a 3.5 D&D campaign.

Apparently WotC wasn't capable of writing the above paragraph. So they wrote 4E instead.

wadledo
2008-12-16, 03:16 PM
In addition to all the above, I've always felt that totemest is pretty balanced.
There are obviously some good/bad points, but as long as you understand the basic rules of MoI, then the decent stuff will shine through.
As well as the fact that if any melds you choose one day completely bomb, you can always change them tomorrow.