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Thrawn183
2008-12-15, 11:40 PM
So I always try to change things up a little with my PC's because while they usually don't metagame too much, they will sometimes pick up on some of my habits on accident.

One of these is the Guy in Fullplate with an Abysmal Reflex and Will Save[TM]. So I was thinking, a monk in armor loses his monk bonus to ac, his speed and his flurry of blows. If I'm making a guy in fullplate, he's going to be sitting there and taking a beating so speed isn't much of an issue. As far as AC is concerned, well fullplate and a shield takes care of that!

As far as strict combat ability goes, the loss of flurry of blows hurts, a lot. I think 4 levels of Fighter would give the needed BAB, saves and armor proficiency. (2 levels of Fighter or even just 1 are certainly possible)

There would be enough synergy from stunning fist to make a decent wisdom score worth while and the combination of evasion and improved evasion would help on the reflex save department if you wanted to dump dexterity.

I just have this idea of a guy in fullplate jumping off a 50 ft. cliff to confront the party and either pounding on them with one hand or a shield wielded in two. And shrugging off most of what the party throws at him.

Any suggestions or have I gone completely off my rocker?

Innis Cabal
2008-12-15, 11:42 PM
The Latter. Just make him a fighter or a Crusader.

AslanCross
2008-12-15, 11:44 PM
Not so sure about "standing there taking a beating." In my experience, 6th-level PCs were able to take out an 11th-level Warblade when she just stood there.

An Enemy Spy
2008-12-15, 11:46 PM
Is there even any reason to have a monk if he's in full plate?

Flickerdart
2008-12-15, 11:49 PM
Favoured Soul gets all good saves, wings eventually, and armour proficiencies. They can do that thing too, or just buy a ring of Feather Fall.

Thrawn183
2008-12-15, 11:49 PM
Saves and spell resistance. The short range teleportation once per day would be really cool as sort of a, "man, what the heck is he doing now?" type thing. Part of it is trying to make something they couldn't figure out easily as my players would recognize most standard opponents like a crusader.

Edit: unarmed strike damage, wisdom synergy and evasion/improved evasion

Though I might have to throw a crusader at them too now that I think about it... a pixie crusader...

Person_Man
2008-12-16, 12:22 AM
You know, as DM, you're not bound by the same game physics as your PCs. You can simply write out stats, abilities, back story, and a motivation, and then play them out. In game, there's no such thing as a Monk or a Rogue or a Fighter. There's just a guy who uses martial arts, a thief, and the town guardsman. Or maybe its a ninja, a brigand, and a bounty hunter. Whatever. The story is what's important. The stats are just a way of adjudicating it to give the PCs the illusion of control.

Just tell your PCs that you homebrew heavily, but promise to roll all the dice in front of them and never invent abilities on the fly or make stuff up just to railroad them. Trust me on this one. It cuts down on metagaming tremendously, and leads to far more roleplaying and use of Skills (Gather Info, Knowledge, Diplomacy, etc) so that they actually care about the character in the campaign, and not just the builds behind them.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-16, 12:35 AM
Is there even any reason to have a monk if he's in full plate?

Absolutely not. Monks are already pathetically bad - giving up all the vaguely useful monk abilities is just crazy.

esorscher
2008-12-16, 02:21 AM
I think the best way to improve this character is take out all the levels of monk.

BobVosh
2008-12-16, 02:30 AM
I think the best way to improve this character is take out all the levels of monk.

I concur.


Is there even any reason to have a monk if he's in full plate?

Fixed it for you.


All you want is a guy to jump off a cliff in armor and do unarmed stuff?

Decent Jump + Slowfall reflavored on the armor + unarmed SS I would imagine. Something like fighter to give armor profs.
I don't know SS stuff though.

Bayar
2008-12-16, 02:31 AM
I think the best way to improve this character is take out all the levels of monk.

But wouldnt that kill him ? Or turn him into a wraith ? I mean, level 0 kinda sucks...

KKL
2008-12-16, 02:39 AM
But wouldnt that kill him ? Or turn him into a wraith ? I mean, level 0 kinda sucks...

As a wise man once said, "Better dead than a monkey."

Greymane
2008-12-16, 03:04 AM
Person_Man hit the nail on the head, methinks. You don't need to go by the same mechanics as the players. In an FR games I run, if the party ever fights a Purple Dragon Knight and a War Wizard of Cormyr in the same encounter, they automatically synergize. In the presence of the Wizard, the Knight throws out ranged energy shockwaves with his sword, as an example.

Just... ya know, don't be cheap and invent abilities on the spot an' stuff. Basically what Person_Man was saying.

Fishy
2008-12-16, 05:15 AM
Saves and spell resistance. The short range teleportation once per day would be really cool as sort of a, "man, what the heck is he doing now?" type thing. Part of it is trying to make something they couldn't figure out easily as my players would recognize most standard opponents like a crusader.

Edit: unarmed strike damage, wisdom synergy and evasion/improved evasion

Though I might have to throw a crusader at them too now that I think about it... a pixie crusader...

Monks get Dimension Door 1/day at level 12. Which happens to be exactly the same level that Horizon Walkers get Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds. So, there's that, then.

Also, Evasion doesn't work when you wear heavy armor.

Slightly more valid reasons to be a monk include threatening the area immediately around you when you wield a reach weapon, getting nifty bonus feats you don't qualify for because you put everything into str and dumped int and dex, skill points for skill tricks like Escape Attack and Swift Escape, and doing Massive Damage when someone casts Enlarge Person at you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-16, 09:48 AM
So I always try to change things up a little with my PC's because while they usually don't metagame too much, they will sometimes pick up on some of my habits on accident.

One of these is the Guy in Fullplate with an Abysmal Reflex and Will Save[TM]. So I was thinking, a monk in armor loses his monk bonus to ac, his speed and his flurry of blows. If I'm making a guy in fullplate, he's going to be sitting there and taking a beating so speed isn't much of an issue. As far as AC is concerned, well fullplate and a shield takes care of that!

As far as strict combat ability goes, the loss of flurry of blows hurts, a lot. I think 4 levels of Fighter would give the needed BAB, saves and armor proficiency. (2 levels of Fighter or even just 1 are certainly possible)

There would be enough synergy from stunning fist to make a decent wisdom score worth while and the combination of evasion and improved evasion would help on the reflex save department if you wanted to dump dexterity.

I just have this idea of a guy in fullplate jumping off a 50 ft. cliff to confront the party and either pounding on them with one hand or a shield wielded in two. And shrugging off most of what the party throws at him.

Any suggestions or have I gone completely off my rocker?

My suggestion?

Swordsage with +1 Glamored Mithral Chain Shirt. Glamor, instead of making it look like normal clothing as usual, makes it look like full plate.

Jumping down from obscene hights? Check. Insane AC? Double-check (Swordsage armor bonus stacks with light armor bonus, you can easily beat full plate's total bonus PLUS the Shield bonus without anything more than chain shirt). Plus he's got a lot of 'no you don't actually hurt me' buttons if you build him right (from Setting Sun particularly).

Thrawn183
2008-12-16, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the input guys. In trying to come up with really creative stuff I sometimes forget about doing things the easy way, and by easy I mean magic :smallamused:

I've never done much with swordsages as I've always been a warblade kinda guy, but now that I think about it, could be devilishly interesting.

Quick question that I've never understood: do HD count as 1/2 initiator level for matial adepts? If you stick a single level of swordsage on something with say... 8 HD does it have an IL of 1 or 5?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 10:02 AM
Thanks for the input guys. In trying to come up with really creative stuff I sometimes forget about doing things the easy way, and by easy I mean magic :smallamused:

I've never done much with swordsages as I've always been a warblade kinda guy, but now that I think about it, could be devilishly interesting.

Quick question that I've never understood: do HD count as 1/2 initiator level for matial adepts? If you stick a single level of swordsage on something with say... 8 HD does it have an IL of 1 or 5?IL=.5xHD+.5x(martial class level).

Telonius
2008-12-16, 10:02 AM
Hoo boy. The only thing I can think of to make that monstrosity suck slightly less would be one level of Paladin and the Ascetic Knight feat.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-16, 10:05 AM
Binder 8 (minimum)
Vestiges bound: Ronove and Savnok
Feat: Lightning reflexes.

decent saves in all categories
Can wear heavy armor
Can summon a suit of magical fullplate
has a boost to speed to compensate for said armor
featherfall at will
Unarmed damage of a monk (but no flurry)

Darrin
2008-12-16, 10:23 AM
I've never done much with swordsages as I've always been a warblade kinda guy, but now that I think about it, could be devilishly interesting.


If you really want the SwordSage in full plate... dip one level of Fighter for the Armored Savant ACF (Dragon #355). Mithril full plate + Armored Savant means you treat the full plate as if it were light armor, so the SwordSage's Wis bonus still applies. Works with Evasion, too, which SwordSage gets at 9th level.

If you still want to be monkish... Unarmed variant of the SwordSage gives you unarmed strike progression as a monk. For flurry, TWF + Bloodclaw Master works pretty well, otherwise just add Snap Kick.

Thrawn183
2008-12-16, 03:03 PM
And now I remember why I never usually build swordsages, what a pain to go through all their maneuvers known and readied!

Hmm, for the one shot, I helped a new player build a warblade and because we were pressed for time I had her select the maneuvers she had readied and a single stance without looking at prereqs (though I made sure they would be of the right level) and the cost was that she only had those maneuvers and that single stance.

I could probably do the same thing for a swordsage where all I spend time on is the maneuvers that he'll actually use.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 03:05 PM
And now I remember why I never usually build swordsages, what a pain to go through all their maneuvers known and readied!

Hmm, for the one shot, I helped a new player build a warblade and because we were pressed for time I had her select the maneuvers she had readied and a single stance without looking at prereqs (though I made sure they would be of the right level) and the cost was that she only had those maneuvers and that single stance.

I could probably do the same thing for a swordsage where all I spend time on is the maneuvers that he'll actually use.Adaptive Style is great for Swordsages. It lets them refresh all maneuvers in a single action, and means they can change the list around because they're fighting a mob rather than the solo guy they expected.

Heliomance
2008-12-16, 04:19 PM
Monks get Dimension Door 1/day at level 12. Which happens to be exactly the same level that Horizon Walkers get Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds. So, there's that, then.

Actually, Horizon Walkers get DD at level 11. You can get into HW after only 5 levels of base class.

Immutep
2008-12-16, 04:37 PM
Just throw a lightning warrior at them http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-868384
that'll make them think! :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 04:47 PM
Make him a Monk wearing special platemail that he's cursed to wear. It's all demonic and stuff. While he wears it, the armor regenerates and takes damage instead of him. When it "dies" it explodes off his body in a shower of shards.

It also makes him constantly Rage.

But you see, he's an Evil monk and he doesn't mind being possessed.

So he jumps off the cliff, landing on a PC for tons of damage with a Leap Attack roll, totally rocking the front part of the house until the kill his armor. Then they get blasted.

The monk stands there in the debris, thanking them tearfully while the Wizard's buffs run out. He explains this convoluted backstory about how he was imprisoned and blah blah. He wants to show them back to his monastery in the mountains where they mine emeralds. It's been taken over by demons, and all the monks slain.

The PCs relax and start to cast some low level healing spells to use them up before starting on the big ones. They become greedy and make silent plans about the emeralds free for the taking. The monk beside the Cleric, who is just now casting his third Cure Minor Wounds, suddenly receives a surprise AoO from the Monk who goes completely ape on them. Now he's got a fresh, full load of Monk and Monk PrC abilities and he's rocking the back half of the party.

The Wizard tries to get some stuff off, but the Monk has excellent SR. He has a belt that grants you bonus SR if you have a natural SR of at least 15. His natural SR is 15. Unless the PCs are playing monks, such an item will be useless to them. And the Wizard has perhaps a 1 in 4 chance of getting through said SR. Plus the Monk has great saves.

And he has a one-shot charm that will reflect one spell, then it's used up. He employs it when one of the Wizard's spells comes through.

Maybe the Monk isn't the best class, but if he's holding all the cards and he's devious he's a worthwhile encounter.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 04:56 PM
*snipped*

Maybe the Monk isn't the best class, but if he's holding all the cards and he's devious he's a worthwhile encounter.And massively houseruled. Besides, Solid Fog has no SR. Neither does Dispel Magic(wipe those items) Summon Monster(there is no problem that can't be solved by sacrificing minions) or Forcecage.

ocato
2008-12-16, 05:03 PM
This reminds me of my idea for a Captain America build, which is effectively a gimmicky fighter with shield and unarmed feats. You pretty much take the standard fighter (dungeoncrasher, preferably), and run around with an oversized shield in two hands power attacking/bull-rushing/tripping the ever-loving snot out of people. Granted it requires a little bit of houseruling/rules lawyering to let your DM let you use a big shield in two hands and bash with power attack, but it gets the point across and is pretty fun.

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 05:16 PM
And massively houseruled. Besides, Solid Fog has no SR. Neither does Dispel Magic(wipe those items) Summon Monster(there is no problem that can't be solved by sacrificing minions) or Forcecage.

Yes we all know the Batman is unbeatable. Note I didn't commit the heresy of claiming the Batman could be harmed or even inconvenienced by a lowly Monk who is *reasonably* houseruled. After all, his houserules mostly involve new and interesting magic items the likes of which often fall into the players' laps. Maybe not precisely in this case. But it's no worse than the benefit of setting up an ambush and getting time to buff up first, which is perfectly acceptable for an intelligent encounter.

Also note that I made a mistake that the Monk has SR 15. Should have been 23 (Level +10, minimum 13th). As a single creature level 13 he's not a CR 13 encounter for a full party of more than four ... but even if a party of four encountered him and they were level 13, the Batman would have exactly one 7th level spell, which might not even be Forcecage.

Dispel Magic requires that you select which item to target. His item that improves SR is probably a belt or something (under armor and hence not visible) and his charm is kept in his pocket or something. The armor could be dispelled I suppose, for 1d4 rounds, but the Monk would use his charm to reflect that one spell back and drop all the caster's junk.

The Monk Jumps over your minions or Tumbles all around and around, provoking no AoO.

And the fact that Solid Fog grants no SR or Save is kind of broken for an area-effect 4th level spell.

Better hope the Batman wasn't the one the Monk landed on ...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 05:25 PM
Yes we all know the Batman is unbeatable. Note I didn't commit the heresy of claiming the Batman could be harmed or even inconvenienced by a lowly Monk who is *reasonably* houseruled. After all, his houserules mostly involve new and interesting magic items the likes of which often fall into the players' laps. Maybe not precisely in this case. But it's no worse than the benefit of setting up an ambush and getting time to buff up first, which is perfectly acceptable for an intelligent encounter.

Also note that I made a mistake that the Monk has SR 15. Should have been 23 (Level +10, minimum 13th). As a single creature level 13 he's not a CR 13 encounter for a full party of more than four ... but even if a party of four encountered him and they were level 13, the Batman would have exactly one 7th level spell, which might not even be Forcecage.

Dispel Magic requires that you select which item to target. His item that improves SR is probably a belt or something (under armor and hence not visible) and his charm is kept in his pocket or something. The armor could be dispelled I suppose, for 1d4 rounds, but the Monk would use his charm to reflect that one spell back and drop all the caster's junk.

The Monk Jumps over your minions or Tumbles all around and around, provoking no AoO.

And the fact that Solid Fog grants no SR or Save is kind of broken for an area-effect 4th level spell.

Better hope the Batman wasn't the one the Monk landed on ...I don't think custom items that would never be approved for a player is a 'reasonable' houserule. A 13th level Wizard will have 3 7th-level slots, no matter what. And minions are summoned next to him, probably large, and any movement he makes provokes(that full-plate you gave him that no player can get imposes a penalty to Tumble).

Also, how is a low-Cha creature bluffing if it's a cross-class skill?

woodenbandman
2008-12-16, 06:12 PM
So solid fog is broken but a guy who has infinite spell resistance and great saves, as well as an arbitrarily high bluff check, isn't?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-16, 06:21 PM
So solid fog is broken but a guy who has infinite spell resistance and great saves, as well as an arbitrarily high bluff check, isn't?

Solid Fog isn't broken because it is subject to friendly fire and obscures your own sight, so unless you have True Sight AND Freedom of Movement up, it's screwing you as bad as the target in the cloud.

The individual with infinite theoretical spell resistance and infinite saves is a putz because he is a monk, and therefore can't actually do anything in combat while the non-SR non-save melee guy hacks him up with a huge sword.

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 06:29 PM
1: When a PC sits in a chair do you have him make Balance checks? Not everything has to devolve into die rolls. The most effective Bluffs come from the DM not mentioning the Monk making his Bluff check. In fact the Monk has no such skill, and if someone used Perfect Detect Lie for Free Always (oops, Sense Motive 1 rank on a WIS class) they'd see through it and the Monk would have to attack.

2: You seem to have some grief about the armor. Note that the armor, the charm, and the SR belt probably don't come anywhere close to his supposed money level. He should have MORE gear.
2A: Sometimes players get things that the monsters don't have. Like, say, spells. How often does a Giant Slug cast Searing Light? Yet we don't moan about how the Cleric is getting all these perks that none of the monsters get.
2B: Oh no, the Trip Monkey can Cleave and dance around and nobody else can? Gee, it's almost like characters occasionally encounter an opportunity that is not open to them! And in this rare case they must simply beat their hands angrily against the glass ceiling consoling themselves in the knowledge that they still won because they're otherwise complete badasses!

3: I didn't say infinite spell resistance. I said the wizard would probably have like a 1 in 4 chance to punch through it. You might want to walk to the bookshelf and pull down that dusty dictionary, check out the meaning of "infinite" and come back to the keyboard. I don't want to trouble you with "links" to "online" dictionaries.
3A: His saves are what they are. I don't commonly see people complaining about how good a monk is as a core class. Normally it's more like "monks can't do anything, they suck, nobody plays them."

4: You can Tumble through threatened squares all you like if you make an easy Tumble check. Monk gets Tumble as a class skill, yo. Level 13 gives you a max rank of 16, decent Dex say +4. The armor gives you -6. Monk has a modifier of +14 assuming nothing strange is going on, so he makes it unless he rolls a 1.

5: You need to have a 32 INT to get two bonus 7th level slots. Your Wizard at level 13, if he started with 18 INT, +4 racial, +4 item, +4 inherent, would have the required 32. But the +4 inherent at least is ... quite a stretch at that resource level. You have one or two 7th level slots. I had forgotten completely about INT bonus spells when I wrote that.

I think you're just threatened that the general worship of the Batman and denigration of the Monk is the only game in town. You've stopped making interesting contributions and simply link to the Logicninja guide whenever someone mentions anything related to spells or classes. And I think if anyone ever pointed out ways to inconvenience the Batman his worshippers would take it as a personal challenge and insult. If everything has been invested in the Batman, and it fails, then the unassailable community based around him has nothing else to fall back upon. I imagine people scrambling through the boards to find a new icon.

Some will favor Pun-Pun. This is the easy way and has no value. But I'm sure you see what I'm saying.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 08:24 PM
1: When a PC sits in a chair do you have him make Balance checks? Not everything has to devolve into die rolls. The most effective Bluffs come from the DM not mentioning the Monk making his Bluff check. In fact the Monk has no such skill, and if someone used Perfect Detect Lie for Free Always (oops, Sense Motive 1 rank on a WIS class) they'd see through it and the Monk would have to attack. There is no mention made, by RAW, whether or not the Sense Motive check is automatic, but it seems like it should be by fluff. If the PCs are being lied to, they deserve a chance for their characters to figure it out. It shouldn't be that the player has to suspect you're lying for the PC to get a chance to break through.
2: You seem to have some grief about the armor. Note that the armor, the charm, and the SR belt probably don't come anywhere close to his supposed money level. He should have MORE gear. Spell Resistance items cost 10k per point. Ignoring the fact that this one stacks, which it shouldn't do(it's a bonus of the same type), 5 points should cost 50K. Great item, especially since it is made for this Uber item of party-nerfing to not work for the party when they do kill your NPC. I also notice that you're ignoring the one round the Monk needs to raise his SR. That should take up his surprise round, or else his SR blocks the healing spells.
2A: Sometimes players get things that the monsters don't have. Like, say, spells. How often does a Giant Slug cast Searing Light? Yet we don't moan about how the Cleric is getting all these perks that none of the monsters get.No, but there is something of an expectation that the DM will follow the rules in creating his story for the enjoyment of the players.
3A: His saves are what they are. I don't commonly see people complaining about how good a monk is as a core class. Normally it's more like "monks can't do anything, they suck, nobody plays them."I am one of those who says the Monk makes a great villain and a poor PC. It's good at surviving but does little in combat.
4: You can Tumble through threatened squares all you like if you make an easy Tumble check. Monk gets Tumble as a class skill, yo. Level 13 gives you a max rank of 16, decent Dex say +4. The armor gives you -6. Monk has a modifier of +14 assuming nothing strange is going on, so he makes it unless he rolls a 1. Full-Plate has a modifier of -6, true, but since though this guy is Cursed with Awesome, he is still cursed, it breaks all bounds of logic for the curser to have used Full-Plate rather than the much cheaper and weaker Splint Mail, which has -7.
5: You need to have a 32 INT to get two bonus 7th level slots. Your Wizard at level 13, if he started with 18 INT, +4 racial, +4 item, +4 inherent, would have the required 32. But the +4 inherent at least is ... quite a stretch at that resource level. You have one or two 7th level slots. I had forgotten completely about INT bonus spells when I wrote that. Or have Specialized. You know, like every Wizard should. Heck, Focused Specialist or Elven Generalist or Domain Wizard. Really, 3-4 spells of the highest level are standard from level 1.
I think you're just threatened that the general worship of the Batman and denigration of the Monk is the only game in town. You've stopped making interesting contributions and simply link to the Logicninja guide whenever someone mentions anything related to spells or classes. And I think if anyone ever pointed out ways to inconvenience the Batman his worshippers would take it as a personal challenge and insult. If everything has been invested in the Batman, and it fails, then the unassailable community based around him has nothing else to fall back upon. I imagine people scrambling through the boards to find a new icon. No, I'm not. And that's all I will respond to something which is only slightly above the level of Ad-hominem.

ericgrau
2008-12-16, 10:11 PM
I think I may have toyed with this a long time ago. I think the spell resistance makes it worth it against casters, superior to other classes in fact, but not worth it against other classes. I assumed direct damage at the time since I was comparing it to other options, but maybe other attacks might work too. IIRC you should use a magic weapon to deal damage, not your unarmed strikes. The encounter should be interesting at least, though slow. But if you're doing all this just for SR, what about drow?

Aquillion
2008-12-16, 10:20 PM
Monks aren't actually a bad class to use for NPCs. They're easy to make since there's few decisions involved, and you can just buff their levels and stats up until they're a decent challenge. Also, all those defensive abilities, while useless for the PCs, are much more useful for a single higher-level monk whose job, basically, is to get killed by the players.

Warlocks tend to make good NPC opponents for the same reason... you might consider a Glaivelock. Easy to build, and gets several tricks that you don't have to track obsessively. You can even refluff its abilities so it doesn't look like a warlock at all -- describe the eldritch glaive as a strange weapon made of black lightning which he conjures out of nowhere, and have him look / act like a melee combatant with strange powers (which is what he is anyway.)

Spending all that time making an NPC ToB character who the PCs are just going to kill in a few rounds is kind of pointless. There's no reason to devote careful time to choosing the detailed level progression, feat and maneuver selection, and so forth for someone who's likely only going to appear in a few disconnected scenes, assuming the PCs don't just kill him the first time.

Eclipse
2008-12-16, 10:41 PM
Honestly, I like the idea of this monk. Sure, a couple of rules might be bent, but it sounds like a genuinely interesting encounter. As long as the GM of this game is bending the rules simply to make an interesting encounter, rather than to say "haha, I made you all TPK," then I don't see the problem. From the sounds of it, he is in fact simply looking to make an interesting encounter, and one the players won't immediately be able to figure out what the enemy can do based on common game knowledge.

So I'd say go ahead and roll with it, it sounds like fun.

holywhippet
2008-12-16, 10:50 PM
Personally I'd homebrew an advanced version of the mage armour spell - +8 to AC instead of +4. Give him a magical item that triggers it (or maybe a spell like ability). The spell gives him the appearance of wearing some kind of armour - maybe something slightly ephemeral/transparent looking. That way you have the AC boost but keep all the monk stuff.

MeklorIlavator
2008-12-16, 10:52 PM
Personally I'd homebrew an advanced version of the mage armour spell - +8 to AC instead of +4. Give him a magical item that triggers it (or maybe a spell like ability). The spell gives him the appearance of wearing some kind of armour - maybe something slightly ephemeral/transparent looking. That way you have the AC boost but keep all the monk stuff.

There already is such a spell: its in the complete arcane/spell compendium.

Thrawn183
2008-12-17, 10:32 AM
Well, my intent is definitely to have enemies that don't quite make sense to the party. I have one player who really doesn't know much about the game (hence why I helped make her a warblade) but all the others are real veterans.

My goal is to make opportunities for everybody to shine. One of those ways is simply by breaking with the standard norm of what you do with an npc so that metagaming, accidental as well as intentional, is more of a harm than a benefit and the player who doesn't have as much experience and just acts on the information she is given in character has a more even footing with the rest of the players.

The drow idea is really, really good. I can't believe I hadn't thought of them!

Eclipse
2008-12-17, 12:56 PM
The drow idea is really, really good. I can't believe I hadn't thought of them!

Make it albino if you don't want the party to immediately realize it has the few spells it gets each day or the SR. Yes, I know it's a little cliche, but it will still likely work. :smallbiggrin:

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 01:01 PM
Make it albino if you don't want the party to immediately realize it has the few spells it gets each day or the SR. Yes, I know it's a little cliche, but it will still likely work. :smallbiggrin:

Or employ Prestidigitation to change the skin color for a while right before combat. Maybe the Drow realize their skin color makes other people try to kill them, and they developed a Level 3 spell that allows the recipient to change skin colors at will for the next 1 month per caster level.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-17, 01:12 PM
Or employ Prestidigitation to change the skin color for a while right before combat. Maybe the Drow realize their skin color makes other people try to kill them, and they developed a Level 3 spell that allows the recipient to change skin colors at will for the next 1 month per caster level.

Or he just wears a cap of disguise.

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 01:21 PM
There is no mention made, by RAW, whether or not the Sense Motive check is automatic, but it seems like it should be by fluff. If the PCs are being lied to, they deserve a chance for their characters to figure it out. It shouldn't be that the player has to suspect you're lying for the PC to get a chance to break through.

I don't make my players stand up and swing sword around to show how well their characters attack. Likewise I don't expect the character to roll an INT check if the player came up with a clever plan. It's often the case that what the players at the table do and what the character in the game world do are resolved fully without resorting to the other.




Spell Resistance items cost 10k per point. Ignoring the fact that this one stacks, which it shouldn't do(it's a bonus of the same type), 5 points should cost 50K. Great item, especially since it is made for this Uber item of party-nerfing to not work for the party when they do kill your NPC. I also notice that you're ignoring the one round the Monk needs to raise his SR. That should take up his surprise round, or else his SR blocks the healing spells.

I'm not ignoring a round to raise SR. He doesn't need to be healed. His armor was taking the damage all this time, remember? The monk was taking advantage of the fact that the party Cleric is healing other party members.
And who says this item does the SR buff permanently? Maybe it's a "duration one hour once per day" kind of thing. He just needs it for one fight, right?



There is something of an expectation that the DM will follow the rules in creating his story for the enjoyment of the players.

The rules suck. The magic item and feat selection is limited and there are far more options that should be made available. And I don't need to buy $400 in splatbooks to expand the rule set if I'm a creative guy and I pay attention to probability and game balance.
All that really matters is that over the long run the PCs end up with enough wealth for their level. They can come upon unexpected windfalls followed by a couple wild animals with no loot. It doesn't matter so long as around level up time they're about where they should be. You don't need every XP gained to be packaged with a GP of wealth gained.



I am one of those who says the Monk makes a great villain and a poor PC. It's good at surviving but does little in combat.

That's kind of what we're addressing with changing the battlefield to favor him and making him use tricks to get ahead. A Wizard villain would just use Forcecage a couple times under Improved Invisibility and then pick off party members at his leisure.
"Oh, another No Save No SR encounter huh? Great, awesome DM, we'll just be rolling up new characters while you figure out your damage."



Full-Plate has a modifier of -6, true, but since though this guy is Cursed with Awesome, he is still cursed, it breaks all bounds of logic for the curser to have used Full-Plate rather than the much cheaper and weaker Splint Mail, which has -7.

Why stop there? Let's say he has DEX 4 (racial penalties of course), no ranks in Tumble, and is wearing ill-fitting extra-heavy damaged rusty Splint Mail that's encrusted with extra-heavy barnacles. Ah, how about it's just Full Plate like the OP and everyone else accepted.



Or have Specialized. You know, like every Wizard should. Heck, Focused Specialist or Elven Generalist or Domain Wizard. Really, 3-4 spells of the highest level are standard from level 1.

I understand that a smart player will try to make his character powerful. I understand that some players refuse to play a character unless the character is really powerful. And I understand that even a straight Wizard is still the best character available. That said, if the party is made of up "well-optimized" characters, there can be no complaint that an enemy uses dirty tricks and is also "well-optimized."



No, I'm not. And that's all I will respond to something which is only slightly above the level of Ad-hominem.

The man speaks from what is in his mind and heart. These are his internal premises. They are worthwhile points of argument when paired with other evidence relating directly to the claim. If a man is irrationally mated to an idea and has a strong personal investment in it, that can be pointed out to show the possibility that his argument is based more in emotion than logic.

People just can't handle it so they arbitrarily file it under "invalid".

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 01:22 PM
Or he just wears a cap of disguise.

Yeah but assuming they have a 5th level Wizard the spell is free. Giving them all these magic caps results in the PCs running around trying to sell 150 of the things.

Coidzor
2008-12-17, 01:36 PM
Yeah but assuming they have a 5th level Wizard the spell is free. Giving them all these magic caps results in the PCs running around trying to sell 150 of the things.

Which defeats one of the original points of the drow, to give something roughly equivalent to the PCs without significantly bloating their magical item stores. Since most drow equipment has a way of...vanishing...

With this monk character, the armor ends up getting destroyed, the belt is of limited utility (SR for so much time for so many encounters in a day, takes up a slot which might be better utilized in a different manner), and I forgot what the charm did, but it seemed more of a trinket to annoy PCs and prolong an encounter. Whereas PCs tend to concentrate less on prolonging their own lives than on ending the lives of others... I think...

Telonius
2008-12-17, 02:38 PM
Hold on a sec ... this Monk in heavy armor ... how's he going to reach the Wizard again? I'm not even talking about Fly, I mean for regular movement. Monk loses all of its bonus movement when wearing any armor, and even Mithral makes heavy armor Medium - which still has a maximum 20 feet of movement. An unarmored Wizard can just run away and throw rocks at him all day, and kill him without using a single spell.

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 02:48 PM
Hold on a sec ... this Monk in heavy armor ... how's he going to reach the Wizard again? I'm not even talking about Fly, I mean for regular movement. Monk loses all of its bonus movement when wearing any armor, and even Mithral makes heavy armor Medium - which still has a maximum 20 feet of movement. An unarmored Wizard can just run away and throw rocks at him all day, and kill him without using a single spell.

He dropped on him from the cliffs.

Or, you know, Jumped. Whatever. We were assuming the Monk in Armor fought the frontline characters until his armor blew, then gave his story, insinuated himself close to the spellcasters, then took his AoO on a caster once their low-durations buffs winked out but before the Clerics really got a lot of healing done.

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 02:50 PM
Which defeats one of the original points of the drow, to give something roughly equivalent to the PCs without significantly bloating their magical item stores. Since most drow equipment has a way of...vanishing...

With this monk character, the armor ends up getting destroyed, the belt is of limited utility (SR for so much time for so many encounters in a day, takes up a slot which might be better utilized in a different manner), and I forgot what the charm did, but it seemed more of a trinket to annoy PCs and prolong an encounter. Whereas PCs tend to concentrate less on prolonging their own lives than on ending the lives of others... I think...

True. You'd either use this Monk encounter to make up for giving too much loot earlier, or make up for the encounter by giving more loot later.

And as for Drow, as players we always shoved the stuff in extradimensional spaces where the Sun couldn't touch them and sold them to Deep Gnomes or something.

Telonius
2008-12-17, 02:50 PM
Ah. So, all the Wizard has to do is avoid cliffs. :smallbiggrin:

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 02:54 PM
Ideally he sits at home studying until he reaches level 18, then goes out adventuring.

He should also avoid swamps, caves, dense foliage, storms, flocks of birds, sales at used car lots, clowns, mimes, jugglers, dervishes, hypnotherapists, homeopathic "doctors", convenience store clerks, apocalypses, Alvin and the Chipmunks, mall muzak, bad Chinese food, hydrogenated vegetable oil, science fiction, forums, and Wil Wheaton.

DoomHat
2008-12-17, 02:54 PM
Your problem can be solved in one line.
“This is an initiate of The Fist of The Lighting Tortoise."
A little known and secretive style that allows almost miraculous mobility and striking power with the use of heavy shield and full plate armor.
A monk trained in Fist of the Lighting Tortoise has full access to all his monk abilities while in heavy plate.

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 02:58 PM
Speaking of which, I want to make a "Munchkin" PrC that just outright gives you the best of everything. +2 BAB per level, all good saves, scads of cool abilities that are all [EX] and grant unnamed bonus sources, all derivative features are based on STR, and all skills are class skills. No prerequisites.

But your character forever carries a floating "M" above his head that cannot in any way be disguised.

I know some players who would balk at the "M" and I know some who wouldn't take it even if it didn't have the "M".

But I know some who would try to ask if the "M" sheds enough light to see in the dark and what the radius is.

Thrawn183
2008-12-17, 03:05 PM
Well... back story!

The party is currently level 9. It is composed of a sorceror, a psion, a warblade, and some broken to hell pathfinder rogue PrC. I nerfed the rogue PrC a lot, but it is still way too strong.

I threw them up against 2 sand giants (a CR 12) as a lone encounter for the day and had to hold back from slaughtering the rogue and the psion. Fun times. In fact, I also totally stole the petrification illusion trap from the thread about annoying your players as a DM and they thought it was pretty awesome. Almost chopped the warblade's arm off. They got lucky by having more than one person who can dispel magic.

Anyway, with 2 casters I wanted to come up with some enemies that are basically normal just a little more resistant to magic and resistant in a manner that is legit it just isn't quite as obvious as usual. Most importantly, I don't want to always be resorting to using casters against casters. Every once in a while its fun to throw an anti-caster caster who just gets pasted by the BSF in a couple of hits, but I am most interested in non-magical types that can weather a couple rounds of a magical onslaught before succumbing to to the warblade and the rogue type.

Telonius
2008-12-17, 03:07 PM
Ideally he sits at home studying until he reaches level 18, then goes out adventuring.

He should also avoid swamps, caves, dense foliage, storms, flocks of birds, sales at used car lots, clowns, mimes, jugglers, dervishes, hypnotherapists, homeopathic "doctors", convenience store clerks, apocalypses, Alvin and the Chipmunks, mall muzak, bad Chinese food, hydrogenated vegetable oil, science fiction, forums, and Wil Wheaton.

And most certainly avoid Wil Wheaton dressed in a clown shirt (http://wilwheaton.typepad.com/wwdnbackup/2005/12/if_you_want_to_.html)while he's in a Chinese restaurant (serving food drenched in hydrogenated vegetable oil) in a Mall that's built on a densely-foliated swamp, next to a used car lot, and down the road from a cave; and that is currently playing the Chipmunks Christmas Song; while Wil talks about his latest science fiction convention (as mentioned in his forums) to a group of hypnotherapists, jugglers, dervishes, and mimes; when he notices that a flock of birds has flown overhead, doubtless disturbed by an oncoming storm that definitely presages the apocalypse. That situation, he should avoid like the plague.

Telonius
2008-12-17, 03:09 PM
Speaking of which, I want to make a "Munchkin" PrC that just outright gives you the best of everything. +2 BAB per level, all good saves, scads of cool abilities that are all [EX] and grant unnamed bonus sources, all derivative features are based on STR, and all skills are class skills. No prerequisites.

But your character forever carries a floating "M" above his head that cannot in any way be disguised.

I know some players who would balk at the "M" and I know some who wouldn't take it even if it didn't have the "M".

But I know some who would try to ask if the "M" sheds enough light to see in the dark and what the radius is.

Sir Minmax would take it as his family crest. :smallbiggrin:

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-17, 04:59 PM
If you want to do some really crazy impossible martial arts, you can do what I did: Make the monk actually a pixie warlock with the Extraordinary Concentration Feat and a maxed out Concentration skill. Use the pixies racial 1/day Permanent Illusion SLA to create an illusion of a badass fullmetal armored Monk. The pixie then manipulates that illusion and delivers Eldritch Blasts with varying damage types to simulate outrageous martial arts styles like 'Frozen Fist of the North' or 'Rising Phoenix uppercut.' The moment the PC's try to lock your illusion monk down, "teleport" him somewhere else by vanishing the illusion and recreating it elsewhere. Do your best not to have the illusions do anything that would grant the PC's a will save vs. illusion. :smallwink:

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 05:06 PM
And most certainly avoid Wil Wheaton dressed in a clown shirt (http://wilwheaton.typepad.com/wwdnbackup/2005/12/if_you_want_to_.html)while he's in a Chinese restaurant (serving food drenched in hydrogenated vegetable oil) in a Mall that's built on a densely-foliated swamp, next to a used car lot, and down the road from a cave; and that is currently playing the Chipmunks Christmas Song; while Wil talks about his latest science fiction convention (as mentioned in his forums) to a group of hypnotherapists, jugglers, dervishes, and mimes; when he notices that a flock of birds has flown overhead, doubtless disturbed by an oncoming storm that definitely presages the apocalypse. That situation, he should avoid like the plague.

Truly the End Days. This is like a Perfect Storm of bad mojo when it comes to Wizards. Luckily you didn't *dilute* the scene with homeopathic folks ;)

Thrawn183
2008-12-19, 10:21 PM
I have definitely learned that illusions are a DM's best friend. But I don't see any way of having an illusion that the party attacks that doesn't grant the party a will save.

Though an enemy hiding behind an illusory wall? Priceless.