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UserClone
2008-12-16, 07:21 AM
Can anyone suggest a fitting PrC for my Knight to work towards? Currently level 1 with Power Attack and EWP: Bastard Sword. Can't seem to find any PrC that fits the class to my taste.

Edit: I am strongly considering going Paladin instead, as the character in question has an 18 Cha, but I'll have to swap the 12 Int and the 8 Wis in that case. :smallbiggrin:
I ended up going with Paladin, which I will be taking for four levels, followed by Sorcerer 6, then either Abjurant Champion (CM) or Knight Phantom(Five Kingdoms, Eberron) next, followed by whichever I didn't already take, then going back to KP for Epic levels.
The campaign goes from 1 to 30. What are some excellent spells in the lowest possible levels which rely as little as possible on character level? I am mainly looking for buffs and/or out-of-combat utility spells along the line of Phantom Steed (a prereq for Knight Phantom )

AslanCross
2008-12-16, 07:30 AM
Well, what do you intend to focus on? The knight does tanking best (straight Knight is fine for this IMO), but if you want to take advantage of your Mounted Combat bonus feats you could go Cavalier.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-16, 07:33 AM
Race? Anyway, I'll second AslanCross on straight Knight.

Edit: Paladin? You remember multiclass rules for Paladin, do you?

Eldariel
2008-12-16, 07:45 AM
If you're going Mounted Combat, I strongly suggest against Bastard Sword. That's an extra feat and you don't have any extras, especially if going Mounted; Mounted Combat is hugely feat-intensive. Anyways, Knight is just fine compared to a Paladin. Having Charisma won't hurt one bit. And really, Knight 20 is perfectly fine. Outside Cavalier, the option for decent, interesting, knightish, non-casting PrCs is very slim. Most such PrCs are made for Paladins and thus require turning or casting or both. A 4-level dip in Paladin would qualify you, so you could actually go for a Knight/Pally multiclass (just take all Pally-levels you want in succession so the multiclass nonsense doesn't bother you).

UserClone
2008-12-16, 07:54 AM
Ah, I see. I was afraid of that. I had considered 2 levels of paladin for the +4 on all saves and smiting anyway; any suggestions for a multiclass Knight/Paladin?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-16, 07:58 AM
Never take paladin beyond level 4 (5 if you want a mount/charging smite; charging smite is better). After that, most paladin PrCs will work fine for knight/paladin: pious templar is my own favorite. Smite till there's nothing more to be smote.

AslanCross
2008-12-16, 08:06 AM
Multiclassing PAladin is fine. Also helps you get a stronger mount. It also boosts your Fort save, not to mention Divine Grace. I'd recommend against Bastard Sword as well. If you're going to do mounted combat, might as well go with a lance and have longsword as backup when you're not mounted.

RMS Oceanic
2008-12-16, 08:31 AM
You could always play a Dwarf and then go Dwarven Defender. That works well with the Tank concept.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 08:56 AM
You could always play a Dwarf and then go Dwarven Defender. That works well with the Tank concept.No, it doesn't. Enemies will just walk around you. DD is a major trap.

Drop the sword and go straight Knight 20. It's one of the few classes that can do that, take advantage.

Telonius
2008-12-16, 09:00 AM
If you're open to homebrewing, the Devoted Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5466899) feat is a decent idea. (Similar function to the other "Devoted X" feats from Complete Adventurer).

If not, the Knight Training feat from Eberron allows you to multiclass from Paladin to one other class with no penalties. Not that good of an option, but it's there if you absolutely need it (or have a DM that's a stickler for multiclass penalties).

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-16, 09:05 AM
You could always play a Dwarf and then go Dwarven Defender. That works well with the Tank concept.

Dwarven Defender is the worst tank with a full BaB. The only function it can perform adequately is denying a 1-square passageway to enemies with no reach and no ability to make attacks at range, and no option of getting around the DD. Never, ever go DD.

Telonius
2008-12-16, 09:24 AM
Dwarven Defender is the worst tank with a full BaB. The only function it can perform adequately is denying a 1-square passageway to enemies with no reach and no ability to make attacks at range, and no option of getting around the DD. Never, ever go DD.

Well, there is the possibility of a Giant Size/Trip build, but that would involve some freaky Wu Jen-based wondrous items (and probably Cyran Glide Boots too after DD8). Still, while it's not quite as useless as what you're saying, you could probably build a better character with Fighter levels in the place of DD levels. And that ought to say it all. It's best to avoid DD.

Eldariel
2008-12-16, 09:29 AM
Have you checked the prerequisites? :smalleek: It's like the "Who's who" of crappy D&D feats.

Person_Man
2008-12-16, 10:49 AM
The best PrC for Knight is more Knight. It's the only thing that continues to increase your Test of Mettle and Vigilant Defender DC's. Plus the Knight capstone is the most powerful ability there is in D&D.

If you must PrC, then I suggest you multiclass into Hexblade. Hexblade will give you your Cha to Saves vs spells, Mettle, and a Familiar. Take Improved Familiar, and you have a kick butt mount (better then a multi-class Paladin's mount, because it's BAB, Saves, and hit points are based on your hit points, not your Paladin level). After that go into Cavalier or anything else that gives you Pounce ASAP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4551066&postcount=16). Alternatively, you can head into Blackguard to gain your Cha to Saves a second time (the bonuses have different names, are different types, and are from different abilities, so they stack).

If you go with the Mounted Combat tree, use a lance two handed and use Power Attack with Spirited Charge and Shock Trooper. This will make your charge attack deal 3[1d8 + (1.5*Str bonus) + magic + (2*BAB)] damage.

If you refuse to dump Exotic Weapon Prof Bastard Sword, then you might as well use it to get two levels of Ronin (which has it as a pre-req, from Comp Warrior). This will give you 1d6 Sneak Attack (which opens up plenty of useful feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915) like Craven), and a useful Banzai Charge ability, which will add even more damage to your attack.

Rei_Jin
2008-12-16, 10:59 AM
Yep, I second the Hexblade/Knight combo, it is made of win. The only downfall there is that both classes give a good Will save and poor Fort save, meaning that you won't get as much out of Mettle as if you had Multiclassed a Hexblade say with... a Warblade.

If you can convince your DM to give one of the classes a good Fort save instead of Will (probably the Knight) then you'll do much better.

Knight/Dwarven Defender only works really well if you have an ability to make the enemy come towards you, like... I dunno, the Knights Challenge class ability? Test of Mettle is one where your opponents have to make a Will save, and if they fail they attack you in preference to your allies. And the Knight gets that at level 4.

Talya
2008-12-16, 11:18 AM
On Paladins:

My sorcerer's cohort is a half celestial, level 10 ruby rose knight paladin (ruby rose knight substitution levels replace immunity to disease with immunity to charisma damage/drain, and cure disease with a morale buff...which is nice because the half celestial gets the cure disease (more often) and immunity to disease right back again. With the "Magic in the Blood" feat (SLAs are all 3x a day instead of 1x a day), she's actually very effective, even with the level adjustment. Of course, she has a weird build, and she feels more like a cleric than a paladin...but I'd actually play that character. Paladin levels aren't always bad.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-16, 11:29 AM
To be clear: I warned about paladins for the multiclassing MECHANICS of the paladin (once you left..) not because I consider them not useful or so.*

*Edit: freakin direct translation from Italian double negative.

UserClone
2008-12-16, 09:05 PM
*bump*
Please see changes to the OP, and a new focus for the thread.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-16, 09:41 PM
ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Feats: Still Spell.
Skills: Ride 4 ranks.
Special: Profi ciency in all martial weapons.
Special: Ability to cast phantom steed.
Special: Citizen of Aundair, member of the Order of the
Knights Arcane.
Why take Paladin 4/ Sorcerer 6 to qualify for this, when you could just as easily go something like Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion to qualify? I don't see any benefit to taking more than two levels of Paladin with this build, and unless your DM has imposed an arbitrary restriction on (prestige) classes there's no reason not to dip into Spellsword to have a stronger character. If the mechanics of the class fit your character, the built-in flavor of the class can be tossed aside in favor of something more fitting to that specific character. Smite Evil is not a significant enough ability to even write down on your character sheet most of the time, and more arcane spellcasting is going to be better than more Paladin levels.

I'd probably take only two or three Abjurant Champion levels since Swift Abjuration is the only worthwhile ability it grants other than BAB and spellcasting. With Practiced Spellcaster your caster level will be equal to your character level and higher than your BAB anyway, so the 5th level is worthless.

In the lowest levels Color Spray is amazing and Wraithstrike is the best melee combat buff ever printed. Get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, since if a spell's casting time isn't a Standard Action or longer it doesn't take any longer to cast with metamagic, so an Extended Wraithstrike is still a Swift Action. Use a two-handed weapon with Power Attack and Arcane Strike, both of which work with Whirling Blade, and get Leap Attack for when you charge. Later on trade out Color Spray and get spells like Shield, Nightshield, and Protection from Evil that will be Quickened due to Abjurant Champion. Greater Magic Weapon is excellent later on.

Take the PHB2 Sorcerer variant to trade out your Familiar, even if you can only use the ability gained once/day. Note that with Int 8 a Human character will still get at least two skill points/level, minimum 1 for every class level and plus one for being Human at each level. Also note that you don't need a higher Wisdom score if you don't even get any Paladin spells, unless you want to use a wand every now and then.

If you want to have more Paladin levels in your build, consider instead going Paladin 6/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Knight Phantom 10.

jacob.swadron
2008-12-16, 10:21 PM
If ye be a chargin', use a lance.

If you end up taking a 5th level of knight, take quick draw so that you can switch between the lance for charging and a sword and shield, most likely the aforementioned bastard sword, for more AC and better damage when you don't charge.

If you do go charging, get a few levels in monk and drunken master for charging in a crooked line...

UserClone
2008-12-16, 10:41 PM
I plan to take the four levels in Paladin regardless in order to get Turn Undead for my Sun devotion. The only things I am looking for at this point are spells and potentially feats. Everything else I will take care of, though your advice is appreciated.

Flickerdart
2008-12-16, 10:53 PM
If ye be a chargin', use a lance.

If you end up taking a 5th level of knight, take quick draw so that you can switch between the lance for charging and a sword and shield, most likely the aforementioned bastard sword, for more AC and better damage when you don't charge.

If you do go charging, get a few levels in monk and drunken master for charging in a crooked line...
Shields don't matter that late in the game, and 2H is always better than sword & board. Don't waste the feat on Bastard Sword proficiency.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 11:08 PM
If ye be a chargin', use a lance. If mounted.
If you end up taking a 5th level of knight, take quick draw so that you can switch between the lance for charging and a sword and shield, most likely the aforementioned bastard sword, for more AC and better damage when you don't charge.Sword and Board is junk, since AC is rarely worth it, and never worth it for a Caster. Bastard Swords aren't worth it either, a Longsword or Greatsword fulfills the role better.
If you do go charging, get a few levels in monk and drunken master for charging in a crooked line...Or take the Skill Trick from CScoundrel. Much better than Monk levels.

Keld Denar
2008-12-17, 12:24 AM
I plan to take the four levels in Paladin regardless in order to get Turn Undead for my Sun devotion. The only things I am looking for at this point are spells and potentially feats. Everything else I will take care of, though your advice is appreciated.

You could always take 1 level of Sacred Exorcist around hte time you get 4th level spells. It requires you to have Dismissal on your spell list, but at least you dont lighting 2 wonderful caster levels on fire. Its in Complete Divine. Also, TU allows you to power Divine Might, which is in CWarrior, and allows you to add your cha to damage for even more glorious Cha synergy.

UserClone
2008-12-17, 12:13 PM
And how do you suggest I meet the skill requirements without having K: Planes as a class skill?