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Who_Da_Halfling
2008-12-16, 11:52 AM
Ok, time to get flamed...

So I was putting together an NPC for a campaign, and I realized that adding the Vampire template to a Human Monk makes pretty much all the Monk abilities better and doesn't hinder them at all.

Think about it:

- Unarmed Strikes count as natural weapons, so the Monk not only gets her improved Unarmed Strike bonuses but also Energy Drains when she hits people.

-She can take Improved Grapple, which works great when you can drain blood and deal 1d4 Con damage while healing yourself if you pin someone.

-The monk's 3rd priority is high strength (behind Wis and Dex), which is great b/c Vampire pumps up your strength considerably, as well as giving nominal boosts to Dex and Wis.

-Your AC is pretty high with your Dex and Wis bonuses, and the Vampire only adds to them with +6 natural armor (which I don't believe shuts off Monk abilities).

-You get Fast Healing, two energy resistances and Damage Reduction on top of the AC and the Monk's ability to heal at mid-levels, combined with d12 HD making you a better tank than most frontline fighters.

Those are the main points, but it was really surprising how the Vampire Template helped the monk. Granted, this is not really much of a solution for PCs, since Vampire is a +8 LA template, but it could be a way to make a Monk semi-viable, no?

What do you guys think? Am I wrong in my assessment, or is it just that the LA makes it unfeasable?

-JM

daggaz
2008-12-16, 11:55 AM
Sounds like a pretty nasty encounter for a group of PCs- yeah the 8LA is just way too much in any game not purposely skewed for it..

herrhauptmann
2008-12-16, 11:57 AM
I think it works better as a NPC, where it's only a +2 or +3 to CR.
-Plus the weaknesses of a vampire highly offset a lot of the advantages.
-Must travel at night or in underdark. Drop them to 0 HP and they go mistform, if they don't make it to a coffin in time, they die. Don't usually see them being allowed to put the coffin in someone elses bag of holding.
-A lot of spells meant to help PCs against undead, can now be used by BBEGs against the PC vampire.
-Turning

daggaz
2008-12-16, 12:10 PM
I think it works better as a NPC, where it's only a +2 or +3 to CR.
-Plus the weaknesses of a monk highly offset a lot of the advantages.
-Must travel at night or in underdark. Drop them to 0 HP and they go mistform, if they don't make it to a coffin in time, they die. Don't usually see them being allowed to put the coffin in someone elses bag of holding.
-A lot of spells meant to help PCs against undead, can now be used by BBEGs against the PC vampire.
-Turning

Fixed that for ya :smallwink:

Bayar
2008-12-16, 12:41 PM
Now I wish that the next Dracula movie will star Jackie Chan as the main blood sucker. And this comes from a guy who lives in Romania.

BobVosh
2008-12-16, 01:08 PM
Oh the vampire monk. How many times you rear your ugly head.

Yes, it would work well.

No it is not viable to use with monk (as a pc)

You just lost 8 HD. And con bonuses. Admittably you now have D12 hd. This means...a 14 con is the equivlant of the extra +4 sides on the die that you gained. So net gain of +0 hp. (except..you just lost 8 HD)

8 LA of no bab. For a frontline hitter.

Slam attacks...may or may not be at monk's damage dice. Kinda worded werid.

Lost of con for MAD is made up for needing CHA for special attacks.

This is helped by getting stat bonuses to needed stats (all of them)

Blood drain: Not too bad, you can make a decent monk grappler. Still, standard issues with medium sized, noncaster, low-feat grappling.

Children of the night: Lulz.

Dominate: Not terrible.

Vampire spawns: You will almost always be fighting things at >2x your HD. Worthless for the most part.

Alternate form: Worthless to you.

DR + Fast healing: Really nice.

Spider Climb: Awww, slow fall sucks.

Turn resistance: Useful, but when you remember most clerics you meet at higher than your ECL, and >2x your HD....this almost makes it so you don't dust when they turn you. Espically radiant pelorites.

Good feats and skills. Good feats as in...nice but not worth spending feat slots on.

Recoiling from mirrors/holy symbols: Lol, there went your ability to attack. Cuz he is vain.

Can't enter places to beat people down. That sucks.

Now at a +2 cr this makes em great for villians.

Just to drive the HP thing in: Level 12 monk with 14 con, and minimum roll each level: 36 hp.
8 vamp, 4 monk, Max hp each level: 48
RPGA HP for first monk: 87
RPGA HP for Vamp: 33


Hmm...cha bonus? That helps you CC umd wands!

Blood_Lord
2008-12-16, 01:16 PM
Without Con you will always have meh HP.

But it is nice theoretically because it slightly reduces MAD.

Just pick an Elf race with -2 Cha -2 Con +2 Dex +2 Wis, add the vampire template, and put your worst stat in Con.

Now you are almost as good as a fighter.

weenie
2008-12-16, 01:17 PM
Energy drain can be used only once/round and the LA is waaay to high. Otherwise I've made a lvl13 vamp monk once and he swept the floor with my 10th level party, that I was having trouble challenging. It was awesome :smallbiggrin:

mabriss lethe
2008-12-16, 01:26 PM
Libris Mortis Wight monster class goes better with monk, if I do say so myself.

The effective LA is only 4, you still pick up some hit dice (even if they still suck) The worded limits on the Vampire's abilities are nonexistant with a wight.

Who_Da_Halfling
2008-12-16, 01:29 PM
yeah, I was making this character specifically as an NPC. It does look like the LA is too high to make this a viable player character. Kinda strange since there are SOOO many weaknesses that the DM could use to limit the strength of a vampire PC.

"Ok, now the next room in the dungeon is...a Hall of Mirrors. Ooh, sucks for Steve."

"Ok, so you round the bend and see...a rushing river with a rope bridge as the only way to cross it."

"Ok, the sun rises....ooh, sorry Steve."

Well, fortunately none of my players are trying to be vampires, so its not a big deal. As an NPC was how I was envisioning this awesomeness working out. I sure hope the PCs don't decide to take on the CR 10 NPC when the seven of them will be at most level 7.

On a side note, I did the actual rolls for the Vampire, and Vampire Monk 8 has 75 HP. Am I doing something wrong? Or is this just higher level than most people think of (it would make for a 16th level PC)?

-JM

BRC
2008-12-16, 01:30 PM
Monks in general are best used as NPC's. Vampire Monks especially so.

Keld Denar
2008-12-16, 01:46 PM
Energy drain can be used only once/round and the LA is waaay to high. Otherwise I've made a lvl13 vamp monk once and he swept the floor with my 10th level party, that I was having trouble challenging. It was awesome :smallbiggrin:

+1. You can only energy drain once per round, without a PrC from Book of Vile Darkness (Lifedrinker?)

Also, Vampire monk characters actually make BAD grapplers. Unless you are grappling a moist paper sack filled with soggy tissue paper, the loss of all that BAB and then partial monk BAB just set you back way too far for the Str bonus and Imp Grapple feat to make up for. An even leveled Commoner with Improved Grapple could probably be in even terms with you. Granted, she won't drain your Con when she beats you, but I betcha if she nags you enough, you'll feel your soul drain away.

Now, a Monk Vampire monster, as in a bad guy you fight, is actually pretty scarry. You make all of your monk unarmed attacks then attack with your slam as a 2ndary attacks, thats a fair bit of damage. Plus your spawn could grapple foes you hit with your Stunning Fist, who's DC goes up when you energy drain 2 levels first. That would be a very tough encounter indeed, provided the twinked out RSoP doesn't dust you, your spawn, and half of the room in a single Empowered Greater Turning attempt.

EDIT:

Libris Mortis Wight monster class goes better with monk, if I do say so myself.

The effective LA is only 4, you still pick up some hit dice (even if they still suck) The worded limits on the Vampire's abilities are nonexistant with a wight.

Gravetouched Ghoul is only a +2 LA template, no RHD. Thats one of the better undead templates you can get, other than necropolitan. The imba paralysis (on all attacks, not just claw claw bites) means you could take levels in monk, get tons of attacks, and have huge chances to paralyze someone. The stats are pretty good too. Well worth the +2 LA for a melee character, especially if you can buy it off, at 6 and 9.

SurlySeraph
2008-12-16, 08:18 PM
Energy drain can be used only once/round and the LA is waaay to high. Otherwise I've made a lvl13 vamp monk once and he swept the floor with my 10th level party, that I was having trouble challenging. It was awesome :smallbiggrin:

I've never heard that before. Source?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 08:45 PM
I've never heard that before. Source?
Energy Drain (Su)

Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.
Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.The SRD is much better organized than the books, and still confusing as heck.

Starsinger
2008-12-16, 08:49 PM
Didn't read the entirety of the thread, since you mentioned monks I'm sure 85% of the posts before mine are "monks suck newb!". Be sure to give Count Monkula the Ascetic Monk feat, so it can use its Charisma instead of Wisdom, since it's Charisma can be higher due to the Vampy bonus.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 08:55 PM
Didn't read the entirety of the thread, since you mentioned monks I'm sure 85% of the posts before mine are "monks suck newb!". Be sure to give Count Monkula the Ascetic Monk feat, so it can use its Charisma instead of Wisdom, since it's Charisma can be higher due to the Vampy bonus.Requires Sorc levels. And the posts so far have been how bad this build is as a PC, with Monks suckiness being only a small part of the overall stank. Don't assume. :smallbiggrin:

BobVosh
2008-12-16, 09:08 PM
Didn't read the entirety of the thread, since you mentioned monks I'm sure 85% of the posts before mine are "monks suck newb!". Be sure to give Count Monkula the Ascetic Monk feat, so it can use its Charisma instead of Wisdom, since it's Charisma can be higher due to the Vampy bonus.

Actually this has been vampire template hate.

Starsinger
2008-12-16, 09:11 PM
Requires Sorc levels. And the posts so far have been how bad this build is as a PC, with Monks suckiness being only a small part of the overall stank. Don't assume. :smallbiggrin:

But I'm quite good at making an ass outta me.


Actually this has been vampire template hate. Ahh.. I didn't realize Count Monkula was supposed to be a PC, I must have missed that in the OP. That is indeed a horse of a different color (mauve to be specific)

Blood_Lord
2008-12-16, 09:13 PM
The SRD is much better organized than the books, and still confusing as heck.

Except that it takes a standard action to make the slam attack, and the supernatural ability can only be triggered after the attack hits.

So which is more likely? Two rounds to do 1 negative level, or it applies instantly as part of the attack action, and would also apply instantly as part of any other natural attacks he had.

ericgrau
2008-12-16, 09:22 PM
In order of bullets ("-"):
1. Ya.
2. Yeup, since the blood train doesn't take an action, the two work well together.
3. The monk's first highest priority is strength, since it provides the bonus for almost all of his abilities. Dex and wis hardly do anything special for him. His 2nd priority is con, like others clases.
4. That works
5. Well that's nice for any class, really. And you won't be much of a tank after losing 8 levels of HD.

The level adjustment +8 really kills it though; but it may still work. Especially compared to other classes.

I don't see the point of bringing up monster CR. That's just a guideline. Hopefully the DM should make the CR reflect the challenge of the creature, which makes optimizing for CR a pretty circular goal. Now if such a creature would be interesting to fight, that makes it something to try.

TheCountAlucard
2008-12-17, 05:26 AM
The first thing I thought of when I saw this thread was Tony Shalhoub with a cape and fangs, just wanted you to know...

Anyway, if you want to make him that much more awesome, make him Large, or at least effectively Large. A goliath Monkula is hella scarier than a human Monkula.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-17, 12:24 PM
Easiest way to make Count Monkula:

Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja 10.

Die from negative levels from the capstone ability from SSN.

Congratulations, you're now a Vamp, without having to pay LA or RHD for it. Plus you're immune to sunlight too!

Keld Denar
2008-12-17, 12:34 PM
Easiest way to make Count Monkula:

Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja 10.

Die from negative levels from the capstone ability from SSN.

Congratulations, you're now a Vamp, without having to pay LA or RHD for it. Plus you're immune to sunlight too!

Actually, the default undead form for a creature killed by energy drain is a Wight. A slobbering, flesh-hungry, life-hating, malign evil wight. Still cool, but probably under DM control, rather than player control.

:P

Lapak
2008-12-17, 01:07 PM
As a side note, Monks tend to work much better for NPCs than PCs in general because of how they're constructed. One of the main criticism of Monk-as-PC is that he doesn't do anything exceptionally well except survive. For a recurring monster or villain, this is a very useful concentration indeed. A vampire-monk hasn't necessarily become more dangerous in combat, but as the scheming mastermind who is forever slipping away from the PC's grasp he works fine.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-17, 01:09 PM
Actually, the default undead form for a creature killed by energy drain is a Wight. A slobbering, flesh-hungry, life-hating, malign evil wight. Still cool, but probably under DM control, rather than player control.

:P

You misunderstand...

The description of the SSN's capstone abilitiy is "If the SSN dies from negative levels resulting from the use of this ability, that character retuns as a LE vampire who is immune sunlight"

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-17, 01:11 PM
The first thing I thought of when I saw this thread was Tony Shalhoub with a cape and fangs, just wanted you to know...


see, now this would be an interesting campaign to watch.

Aquillion
2008-12-17, 03:48 PM
As a side note, Monks tend to work much better for NPCs than PCs in general because of how they're constructed. One of the main criticism of Monk-as-PC is that he doesn't do anything exceptionally well except survive. For a recurring monster or villain, this is a very useful concentration indeed. A vampire-monk hasn't necessarily become more dangerous in combat, but as the scheming mastermind who is forever slipping away from the PC's grasp he works fine.
Exactly. 1/day dimension door, a high movement speed, slow-falling, high saves, high touch AC, immunity to various things and so on are all relatively secondary advantages to a PC; but for an NPC, they can help turn an encounter that would end in one round into something that lasts a bit longer, or let an interesting villain escape without his having to be Batman. And, of course, as the DM you can just pile extra levels or templates on him (like Vampire) until he's a credible threat, if you have to -- a PC can't just say "hmm, I think I'm not effective enough, I'm going to add the Vampire template at reduced cost." But as DM, that's a perfectly fair thing to do.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-18, 03:56 AM
Exactly. 1/day dimension door, a high movement speed, slow-falling, high saves, high touch AC, immunity to various things and so on are all relatively secondary advantages to a PC; but for an NPC, they can help turn an encounter that would end in one round into something that lasts a bit longer, or let an interesting villain escape without his having to be Batman. And, of course, as the DM you can just pile extra levels or templates on him (like Vampire) until he's a credible threat, if you have to -- a PC can't just say "hmm, I think I'm not effective enough, I'm going to add the Vampire template at reduced cost." But as DM, that's a perfectly fair thing to do.And beyond that the Monk has a hard time killing any party members. Stun them? Maybe. Make a bunch of attacks? Definitely. Deal no damage? Certainly.

Aquillion
2008-12-18, 01:42 PM
And beyond that the Monk has a hard time killing any party members. Stun them? Maybe. Make a bunch of attacks? Definitely. Deal no damage? Certainly.Nah, that'd be a problem for a PC in PvP combat, but it's not a fatal issue for an NPC. You can organize the encounter so the NPC is trying to escape instead of kill them; you can make them the 'main target' plotwise with a bunch of pets (in my experience, most players will happily ignore tactics for something like that if it's personal, especially if the enemy they hate tries to run); you can have them fight him in an environment that serves as the main danger, have him use traps or other static things in the area as his main offense, and so on.

He's not The Dragon, no, but he makes a perfectly decent big boss. Not every NPC has to be able to go toe-to-toe with the heroes directly in order to be effective.

Person_Man
2008-12-18, 02:55 PM
You know now that I think about it, adding (and re-fluffing) the Vampire template class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) to the Monk might actually make it playable.

The weakest Monk levels are 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th. At each of these levels, you pick one Vampire ability (except Spawn Slavery, Coffin Sanctuary, Create Spawn, and Undead Type). You must pick an ability multiple times to get the improved version (Energy Resistance 5 -> Energy Resistance 10, Fortification 25% -> Fortification 50%, Blood Drain 1 point of Con -> Blood Drain 1d4 points of Con). Must be at least 10th level to pick Dominate, Gaseous Form, or Alternate Form (which grants you one form, but you can take the ability more then once).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-18, 08:11 PM
Nah, that'd be a problem for a PC in PvP combat, but it's not a fatal issue for an NPC. You can organize the encounter so the NPC is trying to escape instead of kill them; you can make them the 'main target' plotwise with a bunch of pets (in my experience, most players will happily ignore tactics for something like that if it's personal, especially if the enemy they hate tries to run); you can have them fight him in an environment that serves as the main danger, have him use traps or other static things in the area as his main offense, and so on.

He's not The Dragon, no, but he makes a perfectly decent big boss. Not every NPC has to be able to go toe-to-toe with the heroes directly in order to be effective.hat's what I mean. It's a difficult encounter that can't turn into a TPK due to bad luck. How many of those are there?

Who_Da_Halfling
2008-12-19, 12:52 AM
Ahh.. I didn't realize Count Monkula was supposed to be a PC, I must have missed that in the OP. That is indeed a horse of a different color (mauve to be specific)

Actually, i didn't specify, but the actual character is a Monk Human Vampire who is an NPC (not the BBEG) who is meant to be a potential future ally for the PCs.

The beauty of this character, as I see it, is that I can make her fairly powerful to the point where the PCs REALLY shouldn't try to kill her. I'm also completely deviating from the "Undead = Evil" RAW, so this character is Lawful Neutral.

Interestingly, the LA is not entirely irrelevant, since she is meant to be an ally (along with her Cleric 10 husband) for the PCs fight against a BBEG encounter + minions. Thus, i'm trying to balance the encounter such that the Vampire Monk + Cleric + 6-7 member party is going to at least have to try to defeat the minions (the BBEG will be escaping). So, in this encounter, its sort of a DMPC, making the LA somewhat relevant (so she won't get her ass handed to her in combat nor will she defeat everyone singlehandedly), while also making the CR relevant (so if the PCs are stupid and attack her, they might have a chance to not die).

BTW, does anyone have an opinion about the Energy Drain? My understanding (and the way I'm likely to rule it since it doesn't make sense the other way) is that the Energy Drain should apply automatically upon hitting with slam or other natural weapons. It should only apply once per round (since it says that) but should not take a standard action, b/c then you would forgo the Energy Drain if you chose to full attack (which you wouldn't know until you hit).

-JM

sin_sephiroth
2008-12-20, 04:33 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume the main pc party is good. If your goal is to make the monkula a future ally to the party as a dmpc, wouldn't it be better thematically to have the monkula go VoP tree instead of vamp? Works well with cleric husband too, unless hes LN instead of random-good like VoP monk would be. Addresses monks MAD better than a vamp at equivelant levels (unless rather low levels) and gives a ton of awesome half abilities, resistances, immunities, etc. Unless you've already introduced the monkula to the pc party.


p.s.
Oh, and improved natural attack is fun.

Edit
Also, LA+0 ftw?

Who_Da_Halfling
2008-12-20, 06:30 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume the main pc party is good. If your goal is to make the monkula a future ally to the party as a dmpc, wouldn't it be better thematically to have the monkula go VoP tree instead of vamp? Works well with cleric husband too, unless hes LN instead of random-good like VoP monk would be. Addresses monks MAD better than a vamp at equivelant levels (unless rather low levels) and gives a ton of awesome half abilities, resistances, immunities, etc. Unless you've already introduced the monkula to the pc party.


p.s.
Oh, and improved natural attack is fun.

Edit
Also, LA+0 ftw?

assuming VoP means Vow of Poverty?

The cleric is infact LN, since he's thematically a Necromancer who raises undead for good. This necessitates the Monk being an undead of some kind, and the cleric being LN Wee Jas (so he can cast Animate Dead spells).

-JM