Cha-based Gestalt Build

[Eloel]

I need to create a level 2 gestalt build for a campaign. The story I have is cha-based (don't ask :smallbiggrin:), I have the Alu-Demon template for free. I was thinking of human as base race, but I'm not sure. It's 16-PB (Result of Alu-Demon template...), so I'm thinking of 18ing my CHA. That should give me a 24 Cha, without any age adjustments. Would anyone mind suggesting stuff to me?
(I'm thinking of a full-caster, with as little combat proficiency as possible, for improved casting. So, if I get Favored Soul, I want to get Deity's Favor, etc. I also want to be focused on something, and not all magic. Things that come onto my mind, Necromancy, full with animate dead, and undead buffs, a Buffer, that has no blasting spells. I'd rather not have ANY blasting spells on any of my builds, but having 1-2 might be life-saver, and I know that)

PS: D&D 3.5, almost all sources.

[esorscher]

Favored Soul/ Sorcerer.

Spontaneous Arcane and Divine Casting, both tied to the same score.

[Eloel]

Favored Soul/ Sorcerer.

Spontaneous Arcane and Divine Casting, both tied to the same score.

Which spells shall I choose? Too many sources yet I can't find enough same-flavor spells for any flavor...

[Another_Poet]

Favoured Soul/Dread Necromancer (from Heroes of Horror).

Gods, the power.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What backstory can you give us? Because Cha-based really says nothing. Sorcerer//Paladin is good, though

[Eloel]

Paladin = Weapon/Armor, which I don't want. Cha-based says, that I want to be a full-spellcaster, that benefits from Cha.

[Fax Celestis]

Hexblade//Spellthief?

[Magnor Criol]

Paladin = Weapon/Armor, which I don't want. Cha-based says, that I want to be a full-spellcaster, that benefits from Cha.

Maybe, but a two-level dip into it nets you your Cha bonus to all your saves.

Of course, you have to be LG to keep that up, which it sounds like you're not heady for.

If you're looking necromantic stuff, the Favored Soul // Dread Necro option is probably your best choice - there'll be some sick stuff there.

[Toxic Avenger]

What backstory can you give us? Because Cha-based really says nothing.Agreed. There are way too many options without a backstory or concept to narrow things down.

[RMS Oceanic]

Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Sorceror and Favoured Soul are all full casters that rely on Charisma (Although Favoured Soul needs Wisdom for save DCs)

EDIT: Also Warlocks, Wilders and Bards, while not full casters (well the Wilder is full Psionic manifester), also benefit from high Charisma.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just being proficient in weapons/armor doesn't mean you have to use them, more options is never a bad thing.

Sorcerer for sure, probably going into at least one prestige class that advances spellcasting.

Monk, Ninja, or Swordsage with the feat Ascetic Mage to get your Cha bonus to AC. Blackguard 3 to get your Cha bonus to saves, and to get 2nd level divine spells. Mystic Wanderer 1 from Magic of Faerun gets your Cha bonus to AC as a Profane bonus. Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 2 gets your Cha bonus to AC again as a Dodge bonus, which makes the Cobra-Strike variant of Monk good in the early levels. If you need to fill out the early levels with high-BAB classes to qualify for those, Hexblade 3 is superb for Cha to saves vs spells and Mettle. The only thing there that wouldn't stack is if you try to combine Monk, Ninja, and/or Swordsage.

Cha-based builds are usually spontaneous spellcasters, which do better in Gish builds than as primary spellcasters. Starting at level 2 you'll probably want some kind of weapon proficiencies to fall back on when you need to conserve or run out of spells. Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon are good, a bow is superb considering Point-Blank and Precise Shot are also great for ranged touch spells.

[Vortling]

Grab yourself a level of battledancer to add your cha to your ac. You can't use armor with that but you've said you don't want armor.

[Eloel]

Favored Soul or Sorcerer/Dread Necromancer sounds like what I want
Any ideas on what spells I should choose on Favored Soul part, if I want to improve my undead's power?

[Keld Denar]

About the only FS spell that will augement your undead is Desecrate, which can be replaced by a simple Darkskull. Thats pretty meh.

I'd go with something like Hexblade/Marshal/Blackguard//DreadNecro. You get nearly full BAB, and a bunch of great abilities like Hex, Dark Companion, and Aura of Dispair that lower your opponents saves so that when you cast your necromancy spells that you cast. Marshal increases the Init of you and your minions, and gives them a bonus to hit. Pretty solid, if you ask me.

[woodenbandman]

If you can manage any wisdom at all go for Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 3/Marshal 3/Ur-Priest2/Divine Oracle 2/Other cleric cheese 7//Sorceror and various prestige classes totaling to 20. That will get you a rockin' charisma based gish that will have huge saves, mettle, and evasion in ANY ARMOR. Anything that allows a save will have no effect on you.

[ocato]

I'm a huge fan of Bard/Marshall, but that turns into a fairly melee-ish build, which you apparently don't want? We'll need more details, if you please.

[Thurbane]

Sorcerer/Binder, nice combo for an Alu-Demon. :smallbiggrin:

[Paramour Punk]

Marshal increases the Init of you and your minions, and gives them a bonus to hit.

How does a marshal do this? I mean, what aura do they use? Or are you talking about the marshal ability to give someone an extra move action? I read this all the time lately but I don;t see any aura that gives this initiative boost. Can anyone help?

[Thorin]

Favored Soul/Warlock!

You can use the invocation to cover the lack of versatile spells.
Eldritch Blast would be your "1 or 2 spells that do damage"
"Beguiling influence" at 1rst level -> +6 to diplomacy, bluff and intimidate (Way to start a cha-based PC).

Being able to use almost any scroll/wand with an uber charisma and taking 10 y UMD (warlock lvl 4)...
Sure it is handy.

If you could turn undead, you could take the Eldritch Disciple at Complete Mage and some obscure necrotic PrC to complemente your character

[Eloel]

For the argument's sake, let's say I went sorcerer/favored soul, what spells would I choose?

[jcsw]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889 is useful.

[Eloel]

It is useful, but it doesn't tell me spells, nor cha-based classes. And that's unarguable, it doesn't even list sorcerer under CHARISMA.

[sonofzeal]

How does a marshal do this? I mean, what aura do they use? Or are you talking about the marshal ability to give someone an extra move action? I read this all the time lately but I don;t see any aura that gives this initiative boost. Can anyone help?
Motivate Dexterity.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

For the argument's sake, let's say I went sorcerer/favored soul, what spells would I choose?First off you'll want to know what you plan to do with the build. Your spell selection is limited, so you have to spend the slots on stuff you know will be helpful to your role.

Take the spells on the Favored Soul side if at all possible, as Arcane Magic is usually much more effective, so those slots are more valuable. Your Wis is also going to be low, so you will want most of your save-spells on the Sorc side, to reduce MAD. Dispel Magic and Protection from Evil are perfect examples of spells to take for FS but not Sorc.

You'll also want to take advantage of the 'switching' mechanic, so that you can lose Dispel Magic for the Greater version ASAP, and upgrade Invis and the Orbs, too. Runestaves are also your friends, they essentially burn cash for spells known. I'd recommend dipping into classes that grant spells known, like Sand Shaper, and bonus domains, like Voyeuristic Seer, to boost your spells known further. Only take feats if they boost both classes or give you extra actions(you'll never run out of spells, so you need more turns instead). You still get next to no feats, so spend them carefully. Heighten Spell, the ACF from PHBII that gives you faster metamagic, that sort of thing.

[Da Beast]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889 is useful.

I was about to post this. Seriously useful thread for optimization.

My advice is take straight full caster on one side and for the other just look over that list and start dipping like mad. I made a build like this for one of my friends once and it was very affective.

With the right dips you can boost your saves to ungodly levels. Arcane duelist will give you a nice bump to ac. Pick up something with turn undead and take some feats to spend turning attempts for charisma based bonuses.

Edit: This probably won't be as powerful as tall kid's suggestion but a build like this can be really fun to put together and makes a great gish.

[Rei_Jin]

Well, I'd plan to do this (as a final build)

Sorceror 2/Hexblade 1/Sorceror 7/Incantatrix 10

Hexblade 2/Favoured Soul 4/Mystic Wanderer 3/Favoured Soul 11

That will net you level 9 Divine and Arcane spells, stupid high levels of Metamagics and fun, Mettle, awesome saves, Cha to AC as a Deflection bonus when unarmoured, and Cha to saves against spells.

[BobVosh]

I would say Bard/Sublime Chord (or whatever it is that gives full casting)//FS