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RS14
2008-12-16, 04:09 PM
I've seen it suggested that "A wizard can do a 10 million to 1 time plane" with genesis. However, I see nothing in the spell description that states this explicitly.

The most relevant statement seems to be "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain." However, I would argue that the Time trait of the demiplane is not at all like the factors given as examples, and is not determined by the caster.

What do others think of this interpretation?

Full Text:


Genesis
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Creation 9
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 1 week (8 hours/day)
Range: 180 ft. (see text)
Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The spellcaster creates a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes.

A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane. When he or she casts the spell, a local density fluctuation precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows at a rate of 1 foot in radius per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from surrounding ethereal vapors and protomatter.

The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires. Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.
Material Component

A crystalline sphere
XP Cost

5,000 XP.

Saintjebus
2008-12-16, 04:13 PM
The text says " Factors within the plane." The Time trait is a trait that affects the entire plane, so I would say no, you cannot do that.

(This could be nitpicking the word "within" but whatever.)

AKA_Bait
2008-12-16, 04:17 PM
By RAI, I would agree with you. However, by RAW, I'm not so sure. I have a recollection of it saying someplace in the DMG that there are planes where time does not pass at the same rate (or that you can create such planes). That implies that the passage of time is an open for tweaking thing.

Of course, how exactly does one visualize the passage of time? Sure, you can visualize the sun moving, or the wind blowing, or sand falling through an hourglass but those are just things moving in particular ways as time passes. They are not time itself passing. By this argument, you could, in theory, create a plane where sand fell through an hourglass faster or the sun went around the earth every 20 mins those things wouldn't make time move any faster, the objects themselves would be moving faster within the same rate of time.

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 04:19 PM
People are probably quoting errata or FAQ, or using common sense that says "some planes have differing time scales and so a time scale must be a feature of a plane. If I can change the features of my plane, I can change the time scale within it".

The logic breaks down at "I can change features" which is not supported in the spell description. What the spells literally lets you do is change the terrain and weather. It doesn't let you change how magic works.

I'd say that if it's possible to change time flow in your pocket dimension relative to the rest of the universe and planes, then you're powerful enough to change other game mechanics. For example, you could say that you (and only you) gain experience at a rate infinitely faster than on the Prime. All you need to do is bring in a monster you'd gave even one X₧ from and kill it, then you're level ∞ , have a million hitpoints, and have maximum Charisma. [/simpsons]

Heliomance
2008-12-16, 04:22 PM
Except that there are no planes where XP is altered. The argument goes that since there are time-variant planes, time must be a valid trait of a plane for alteration.

RS14
2008-12-16, 04:24 PM
By RAI, I would agree with you. However, by RAW, I'm not so sure. I have a recollection of it saying someplace in the DMG that there are planes where time does not pass at the same rate (or that you can create such planes). That implies that the passage of time is an open for tweaking thing.


That's right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#time), under planes.


Except that there are no planes where XP is altered. The argument goes that since there are time-variant planes, time must be a valid trait of a plane for alteration.

I'm not disputing that time is not a valid trait of a plane, merely that it falls outside of the set of traits that are permitted for alteration by Genesis.

AKA_Bait
2008-12-16, 04:30 PM
I'm not disputing that time is not a valid trait of a plane, merely that it falls outside of the set of traits that are permitted for alteration by Genesis.

There's a problem of reference though. The spell doesn't state what the traits of the demiplane are at all. It does only explicitly say that the environment is under the control of the caster and not the planar traits. I think the working assumption and intent of the designers is that the demiplane has the same planar traits as the material plane, but that's not actually spelled out anyplace.

RS14
2008-12-16, 04:35 PM
There's a problem of reference though. The spell doesn't state what the traits of the demiplane are at all. It does only explicitly say that the environment is under the control of the caster and not the planar traits. I think the working assumption and intent of the designers is that the demiplane has the same planar traits as the material plane, but that's not actually spelled out anyplace.

I would assume that the planar traits are inherited from the Ethereal, as that's where it's cast and all, but otherwise agree with you.

AKA_Bait
2008-12-16, 04:59 PM
I would assume that the planar traits are inherited from the Ethereal, as that's where it's cast and all, but otherwise agree with you.

I dunno, I always assumed that the demi-plane would have gravity. The Ethereal doesn't.

kme
2008-12-16, 05:22 PM
Hm, now that I think about it, the plane is not very big, and since it is finite it must have some physical boundaries. Does that mean that the plane is actually a dark spherical room filled with some kind of shaped soil or rock? Because I always imagined Genesis as a way of creating some kind of happy looking landscape with sun and bright green grass or a perfect beach where you can take a vacation from your daily adventuring life. Eh, but it seems that it is not really possible.

AKA_Bait
2008-12-16, 05:33 PM
Hm, now that I think about it, the plane is not very big, and since it is finite it must have some physical boundaries. Does that mean that the plane is actually a dark spherical room filled with some kind of shaped soil or rock? Because I always imagined Genesis as a way of creating some kind of happy looking landscape with sun and bright green grass or a perfect beach where you can take a vacation from your daily adventuring life. Eh, but it seems that it is not really possible.

Well, you can create that, it's just really small to start with. i.e., you create (over time) a 360 ft diameter demiplane, which is divided in half. The bottom half is all rock/underground, caves etc. The top is sunny blue skies.

Gravity is still a problem though unless the plane has something different than the Ethereal plane's gravity. It would probably need Objective Directional Gravity (determined at the time of creation) to really work well. Of course, the spell doesn't say you get to pick traits like gravity...

RTGoodman
2008-12-16, 05:42 PM
I think part of the reasoning (at least, that I've seen) about the spell genesis letting you determine the Time trait is that the psionic power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm) of the same name specifically says that you "can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane." Time, therefore, IS a trait you could normally determine, but you're specifically (by the power) not allowed to change it. The spell doesn't have that stipulation, so Time is one of the traits you CAN change.

I don't know if that really holds water, but I've seen that logic used before.

Heliomance
2008-12-16, 05:58 PM
All that suggests is that the Arcane version was never intended to let you alter time, and they plugged the hole in the psionic version. Why they never errata'd it though, I don't know.

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 06:12 PM
So I guess there's your answer.

Genesis lets you alter the following things:

Atmosphere
Water
Temperature
Shape

And it mentions creation of matter drawn from the Ethereal.

It seems like the common sense application is, "so long as it doesn't give you something way beyond what is in RAW, it's okay to manipulate other features not mentioned but similar to those mentioned."

Some examples of things that are not common sense additions to your alteration list:

XP gain rate
Presence of hundred of tons of flawless gemstones and adamantite
Personal powers of the caster
Properties of objects brought into the dimension
Level of magic available
Rate of learning for those in the domain
Growth and aging rate for creatures brought into the domain
Temporal progression rate

Some examples of things that make sense:

gravity
illumination
non-valuable and non-organic substances like stone, sand, dust

As a side note, the effect you'd get out of altering temporal flow is the same as an Epic spell that lets you skip ahead in time while getting all the intervening time to heal and plan. Or pop in and experience one minute of dimension X time and return after 1000 years has passed in the Prime. Or pop in to Dimension Y and get 1000 years to learn and become awesome while only a moment passes on the Prime.

Such an Epic spell that effectively granted you even one bonus level in learned XP would be of far greater difficulty, perhaps impossible. After all, who wouldn't learn it? Wouldn't everyone hit say Level 30 and then shoot up beyond godhood to some other existence?

kme
2008-12-16, 06:28 PM
Well, you can create that, it's just really small to start with. i.e., you create (over time) a 360 ft diameter demiplane, which is divided in half. The bottom half is all rock/underground, caves etc. The top is sunny blue skies.

Well there are only two possibilities. One is that the demiplane is actually spherical, and nothing beyond that sphere exists. Its boundary must simply be some sort of wall, made of who knows what (other options would be simply too weird). That means that there is not really enough space for a true atmosphere to fit, not to mention sun :smallsmile:. So this kind of demiplane is doomed for eternal darkness, unless you can "visualize" some magical light into it, or bring some light into it with normal means of course.

The other option is that the demiplane is actually a floating island in some kind of elemental plane of air environment. Here you can have basically anything, assuming that you can also change that environment. But then, what happens if you jump from it :smalltongue:?

I guess you can combine these two and say that walls are invisible and the whole sphere/demiplane floats in that environment. This is somewhat strange but probably acceptable.

Tacoma
2008-12-16, 06:40 PM
This was much easier in 2E.

Back then, when you used a thing that made you Ethereal, you seeped out into the familiar foggy layer-world. But off in the distance there was a rippling color curtain through which you could pass and enter the Deep Ethereal.

Out here, you float until you find your destination. And that destination was another color curtain. You could tell which plane you'd end up in by the colors and patterns in the curtain. Both sides were identical. And as you approached, the curtain seemed to extend in all directions forever. But this was the border between planes when it came to the Ethereal.

Thus your demiplane would have, from the inside, a color curtain on the Ethereal through which you could pop into the Ethereal-overlay version of the dimension or back into Deep Ethereal. But when you enter the dimension you're still phased out Ethereal so you have to pop in to handle anything.

So the very small dimension from an Ethereal perspective is surrounded by this three-D color curtain. Yay!

From the physical perspective? I imagine like a 3D graphics engine fault it would just be black at the "border". Touching it doesn't do anything. It's hard and featureless, smooth, not made of anything, and it doesn't reflect light. You cannot pass through it because in this dimension there is nothing on the other side and in fact the wall is not made of anything. Yet it supports space and objects within.

As you enlarge the dimension, the color curtain on the outside expands until it eventually extends off into the mist like most full-size planes. From the inside, your dimension probably is a flat stony plane if you're not very creative. You might have a lamp on the ground that you brought yourself to make light.

Eventually if it's big enough maybe it takes on the features of empty space, such that one could imagine the Prime Material having a smooth black surface on its outer edge seen from the inside.

Zaphrasz
2008-12-16, 07:07 PM
Time is considered a physical trait according to the Dungeon Master's guide, so I think it is perfectly in line with physical factors "such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-16, 07:50 PM
I think it's necessary to point out here that the D&D world lacks traditional "2 objects attract at a rate consistent with the inverse square rule" gravity of our universe. D&D has simply a force that attempts to move objects in a certain direction, and that force can be altered or changed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm). Similarly, the sun probably isn't a massively hot ball of nuclear fire, but rather is either a giant lightbulb or a flaming chariot wheel. The stars are probably holes in the firmament(except in Spelljammer). No reason for those not to be alterable in your personal plane. In fact, I could see a martial type doubling the gravity of his plane to train harder(yes, I know that doesn't work IRL or RAW, but it is cool), or a drow-hunter not having the light source activated to make him more used to darkness, except that when he does activate it, it doubles the penalty to any light-sensitive that was dumb enough to sneak in.