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Magnus7
2008-12-17, 08:03 AM
I'm going to be playing in a campaign next weekend and the character I'm working on needs to be mostly rogue, or at least something similar enough.
I have two builds in mind, both with a few gaps or feat holes, one of a rogue and one of a ninja.
I'm fine with multiclassing, but I don't want to be a class whore either. Maybe 2-3 base classes with 1 prestige, if any.
I would prefer to dual wield, but could be talked into the spring attack line or something similar with the right build idea.
The campaign is focused around gathering relics to revive a dark god, and the party is intended to be evil.
We start at level 1, so I am putting emphasis into playability throughout all of my character's levels.
As of now, there will be a total of 8 players.
We have:
Fighter(Two-Weapon Fighting line)
Cleric
Barbarian
Swashbuckler(Focusing on defense and counter attacks, going Duelist asap)
Wizard(Enchantment, going Master Specialist)
Ranger(Ranged, going into Assassin)
Bard or Paladin(She hasn't decided yet)
Me

My main build:

Human
1 Rogue Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative, (Craven and Weapon Finisse as DM gifts)
2 Rogue
3 Rogue Quick Reconnoiter
4 Rogue
5 Rogue
6 Rogue ???
7 Rogue
8 Rogue
9 Rogue Deadly Precision
10 Rogue
(don't know if the campaign will take us beyond 10th level, but if it does then this is what I intend on doing)
11 Rogue
12 Rogue Savy Rogue
13 Rogue
14 Rogue
15 Rogue Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16 Rogue
17 Rogue
18 Rogue Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19 Rogue
20 Rogue

This is a straight-forward rogue so far.
Surprise round, win initiative, flank the rest of the fight.
In this build I WILL want to get Savy Rogue asap, so by level 12 I need at least 10 levels rogue.

My other idea:

(Complete Adventurer Ninja)
Human
1 Ninja Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw & Flick of the Wrist for free
2 Ninja
3 Ninja Quick Reconnoiter

Would either just go all the way with ninja or I thought about going into Ghost Faced Killer for flavor.
But with this char I would hope to get a surprise round fairly often as I intend to be scouting ahead of the party most of the time.
So, I get the surprise round, run in, hit once with sudden strike(twice if I can sneak close enough) then initiative rolls(winning a good majority of the time) I hit two more times with Sudden Strike(maybe ghost step afterwards), average enemy should be nicely dented by their first turn, if it continues then my 2nd turn I "flick-of-the-wrist" for that encounter and ghost step for the second attack to get Sudden strike on both of those attacks also.

This is something that seems more fun, if I can get another way to use sudden strike mid-fight while still dual wielding it would be nice.
I had thought about running a catfolk with this(DM is allowing cl+1 races in place of the 2 free feats) and getting Catfolk Pounce, but it's effectiveness wouldn't show up until later levels without the feats.

I'd prefer to run the ninja if I can, and yes I have looked into Rokugan Ninja I really want a more skillful character, especially with trapfinding, since my party lacks this.

AslanCross
2008-12-17, 08:14 AM
Spring Attack is totally not worth it. Don't bother getting it. I'm not so sure about TWF; you need full attacks to use it properly, and you don't want to stay put long enough to full attack. Furthermore, you don't have full BAB, so your hit rate will take a rather large penalty.

Magnus7
2008-12-17, 08:25 AM
Actually, I might go ranged with daggers as throwing weapons.
Point blank shot, Rapid shot, Quick draw, Flick of the wrist...
Would put me in melee far less often, which as it stands the rest of my party is 5/7 melee, and I would still get an extra attack early on. More thinking, still.

woodenbandman
2008-12-17, 09:09 AM
Do the whole Monk1/Rogue 19, with that feat called Ascetic Rogue (Complete Adventurer) which avoids the Rogue20 dead level and grants you improved unarmed damage equal to a 20th level monk. See if you can get Carmedine Monk/Kung Fu Genius passed, which basically add your Int rather than your Wis to your unarmored AC. Ask your DM if you can two weapon fight with unarmed strikes. I say no, but some say yes. If yes, rock out. If no, rock out anyway because you can ask your DM for a scorpion kama (I believe it's in the magic item compendium), which is basically a weapon dealing damage equal to your unarmed strike. 6th level might be a good spot to get Tactile Trapsmith, letting you search and disable in perfect darkness with no penalties at all, if your campaign does a lot of that.

Also, if you can, take the unearthed arcana variant Passive Way. Combat Expertise is a hell of a lot better than improved grapple or stunning fist.

Epinephrine
2008-12-17, 09:36 AM
I'm going to be playing in a campaign next weekend and the character I'm working on needs to be mostly rogue, or at least something similar enough.
...
But with this char I would hope to get a surprise round fairly often as I intend to be scouting ahead of the party most of the time.
...
This is something that seems more fun, if I can get another way to use sudden strike mid-fight while still dual wielding it would be nice.
I had thought about running a catfolk with this(DM is allowing cl+1 races in place of the 2 free feats) and getting Catfolk Pounce, but it's effectiveness wouldn't show up until later levels without the feats.
...
especially with trapfinding, since my party lacks this.

If you picture a character scouting ahead, alert to danger, and making deadly hit-and-run attacks on enemies, the Scout is a pretty solid choice.

Add Catfolk pounce, and the scout is really solid, as you can get your skirmish off on full attacks.

Scouts can fill all the rogue/ninja type roles retty well, and can even dress all in black leather if you want - they don't have to be love-nature types. They have trapfinding/disarm, improved speed, a precision damage bonus, AC bonuses, cool abilities (ignoring terrain by level 6 is REALLY handy, especially when you want to hit someone and ensure they can't hit back), Hide in Plain Sight/Camouflage later on, Blindsense and later Blindsight, and even gets bonus feats. 8 skill points per level and d8 HD to boot.

They also get an initiative bonus as they level (battle fortitude), and the free scout feats can easily be used to pick up Improved Initiative. I'm not a fan of the Swift Hunter feat, as I think it's overpowered, but it can easily be added to gain a favoured enemy progression if desired, and a couple of levels of ranger can give you Track and TWF for free, though you'd miss out on the top-end scout abilities. 4 levels of ranger, with the Distracting Attack variant, and you end up with +16 BAB eventually (not bad), and can provide flanking from a distance or on a Spring Attack.

On the subject of Spring Attack, I really like it for the right character (like a Scout), but it's not the best feat in a big party situation. With Hinder (cutting your enemy's move in half), it can mean that you demolish your opponent without them getting a shot at you, but it's not as handy when you are in a team that wants to stand and fight. Great for soloing badguys, in combination with Hide in Plain Sight/Camouflage, as they'll never even know where you are.

Scout Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=584572)

BardicDuelist
2008-12-17, 09:46 AM
Rapid-shot feat chain rogue. It fits with your party (who has a lot of melee) and can use daggers if you don't like the bow idea.

If you want a "ninja," play a rogue. It is a far superior class. Magic items make up for the invisibility, although if you feel you really need it, I'd add in a few levels of Factotum over the ninja levels. This avoids being MAD (only really needs Int for all but one ability, which you should have as a rogue). Alternatively, a some Beguiler levels and good spell selection could create the "ninja" feel (again, without being nearly as MAD and still getting to use items, which is one of the biggest power lags of ninjas and monks).

As a PrC, Master Thrower and Assassin are the only ones that I'd say are really worth looking into. Possibly Shadowdancer or some other one that picks up HiPS.

Keld Denar
2008-12-17, 09:55 AM
Rogue1 Two Weapon Fighting
Rogue2
Rogue3 Craven
Rogue4
Swordsage1
Rogue5 Shadow Blade
Rogue6
Swordsage2
Rogue7 Improved TWF
All the rest rogue, getting Crippling Strike and maybe Skill Mastery, and the Savvy Rogue feat at 12.

Take Island of Blades Stance and Assassin's Stance. Swap between em as needed to get SA. Get SH and DW maneuvers that either add damage to your full attacks or give you stealth and mobility. Focus on dex and stealth skills.

There, that was easy...

mabriss lethe
2008-12-17, 10:06 AM
Drop Rogue 20. Pick up a single level of...well anything you like. It'll be better than taking rogue all the way through. (look at your 20th level rogue capstone ability to see what I mean.)

Pick up a level of spellthief for more sneak attack. Pick up a level of shadow dancer for Hide in plain sight. A level of warlock will net you a minor at-will invocation and you'll probably never need to carry a weapon again. Fighter will bump your BAB and net you an extra feat.

Magnus7
2008-12-17, 11:23 AM
Where can I find Shadow Blade?
I have found what it does, but I would like to see something so that I might verify it.
And I completely forgot to mention that I'm not allowed to use anything from Tome of Battle.

I am starting to lean towards a ranged scout now, though, or a dagger rogue(quick draw, flick of the wrist, point blank, rapid shot) after a bit more thought. The scout sounds like a better experience solo, though with the ranger variant it would give me some synergy with the rest of the party, providing flanking from a distance. That said, if I run the rogue, I think the only time I would get into melee is just for flanking. I'm slowly starting to crave TWF less and less. I greatly appreciate all the input/info given. New ideas and pointers are helping me think about my char a little more.

Keld Denar
2008-12-17, 11:47 AM
And I completely forgot to mention that I'm not allowed to use anything from Tome of Battle.

This. This both sadens me and infuriates me. I feel bad for you and your group. ToB makes everything better.

PS, its usually helps if you list available sourcebooks in your OP. Otherwise don't be surprised when people mention stuff that you can't use. I'm still 500 XP short of my first Mindbender level, so I lack the required telepathy to be omniscient. :P

Magnus7
2008-12-17, 12:03 PM
Yes, I am sorry about forgetting to mention it before. It is the only book he won't let us use, overpowered says him. XD

Keld Denar
2008-12-17, 12:15 PM
Yes, I am sorry about forgetting to mention it before. It is the only book he won't let us use, overpowered says him. XD

DROOD20!!!!

His reasoning is weak. I suggest casting Suggestion IRL. Using Tequillia as a material component increases the DC by a factor of 2.

ToB makes melee fun, interesting, and versitile. Why let everyone else have all the fun?

The only things that are termendously OP (RKV, Stormguard Warrior) are either fixed in the FAQ (Divine Impetus 1/round) or easily banable. No sense thowing out the baby with the bathwater, and that baby is incredibly awesome.

Telonius
2008-12-17, 12:31 PM
DROOD20!!!!

His reasoning is weak. I suggest casting Suggestion IRL. Using Tequillia as a material component increases the DC by a factor of 2.

ToB makes melee fun, interesting, and versitile. Why let everyone else have all the fun?

The only things that are termendously OP (RKV, Stormguard Warrior) are either fixed in the FAQ (Divine Impetus 1/round) or easily banable. No sense thowing out the baby with the bathwater, and that baby is incredibly awesome.

Using tequila and an attractive member of his preferred gender amps it up to 8.

Magnus7
2008-12-17, 12:46 PM
Hmm. It would work, but the last time he got drunk I was the one dm'ing and all he did was complain about how he was too drunk to play. So I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to dm after I boozed him up XD

Keld Denar
2008-12-17, 02:00 PM
Nah, don't booze him up before playing. Build your character ahead of time, and booze him up when you approach him about using ToB. After he agrees, get him to sign something. Preferably in blood. You know, the typical Faustian kind of thing.

Or you could always try the whole "Things are getting boring in the dungeon. The campaign just doesn't have the same spark as it used to. Its the same old wham, bam, treasure ma'am. Lets try experimenting with roleplaying to see if we can spice things up in our marrage...errr, I mean game."

Epinephrine
2008-12-17, 02:03 PM
Or you could always try the whole "Things are getting boring in the dungeon. The campaign just doesn't have the same spark as it used to. Its the same old wham, bam, treasure ma'am. Lets try experimenting with roleplaying to see if we can spice things up in our marrage...errr, I mean game."

I don't know of any examples where polygamery has worked out. Bringing another DM into the mix just creates awkward tensions. Sooner or later you'll end up playing more with one than the other, or playing when the other isn't around ... it never ends well.

Keld Denar
2008-12-17, 02:14 PM
I don't know of any examples where polygamery has worked out. Bringing another DM into the mix just creates awkward tensions. Sooner or later you'll end up playing more with one than the other, or playing when the other isn't around ... it never ends well.

Well played good sir, well played!

Person_Man
2008-12-17, 03:25 PM
Have you considered Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)? It has slightly less Sneak Attack, but no dead levels, and it gets access to psionic powers. It's quite playable with nothing but the SRD. The class gives you access to such gems as Hustle, Compression, Force Screen, Body Adjustment, and Psionic Freedom of Movement. Using the Expanded Knowledge feat, you can get Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, Bite of the Wolf, Expansion, Inertial Armor, Energy Missile, etc. It also gives you Mind Cripple Special Ability, which deals Int damage, which IMO is a lot more valuable then dealing Str damage with Crippling Strike.


For your TWF needs, I suggest a reach weapon, armor spikes, and spiked gauntlets. You can switch between using these as a free action, even as part of the same attack action. (This is specifically detailed in the official FAQ, if you care to look it up). For example, if an enemy is standing next to you, you can hit him with your armor spikes, then hit him with a spiked gauntlet, and then hit his friend who is standing behind him with your reach weapon. And with the Adaptable Flanker (PHBII) you can count a second hex that you threaten as your flanking position. Thus with a reach weapon and armor spikes/gauntlets, you can flank by yourself, or you can flank with a friend as long as he's threatening any part of your enemy.

Also, here's a list of Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915). I suggest Craven, Staggering Strike, and Dragonfire Strike (if your DM lets you use it to bypass Precision Damage immunity, which by RAW it does).

ericgrau
2008-12-17, 03:45 PM
TWF is a trap. Are you going to use melee full attack flanking most of the time or surprise single attacks most of the time? Do you want to be a warrior first and then a skillmonkey, or a skillmonkey first and then a warrior? If you melee all the time, your silly low AC and HP will get you hammered, while your low AB will give you much less damage than you're expecting. If you sneak all the time, you won't need TWF. Especially GTWF. An extra attack at a -10 penalty is not worth a feat. And if melee is what you really care about, you can make strength your first stat, con 2nd, dex 3rd and you won't need weapon finesse. But, again, you'll get hammered and if you really just want melee you'd be more effective as a fighter/ranger/barbarian/paladin. Rogues are best at skillmonkeying first, and fighting second.

Improved initiative might not be necessary, especially if you tend to fight against groups. You only need to beat the initiative of 1 monster, after all. Always nice for any character, but perhaps not a high priority.

If you're the party scout, you can't get too far ahead. Fighting alone = death. So are you scouting so you can get the first hit before your party gets in the way? Or scouting so you can report back and keep the party out of danger? If your goal is to keep the party out of danger and you, one of the most fragile members, takes the lead, that may be a problem.

I was thinking of a build, but it seems to be a completely different direction from the one (three?) you're taking. So maybe you can make your goals more clear before you become dissapointed that you didn't just play a fighter/ranger/barbarian/paladin. A good rogue is good at skills above all else, but unfortunately a lot of DMs mostly only give him the opportunity to use search and disable device, if anything. Even scouting with hide/MS/spot/listen tends to become a suicidal trap. So it also depends on your group. Otherwise just take a 1 level dip in rogue for the trapfinding and play another class.

EDIT: A source of invisibility would be a good way to fix a great deal of the above problems. I have a ton of other general ideas too but it would be helpful to know what direction you want to take ("hobbit" burglar, invisible killer, tricky oriental ninja, plain old fighter, etc.)

Magnus7
2008-12-19, 07:17 AM
I am going to try and keep my character versatile. I misunderstood my dm and I only have 1 free feat. My wizard changed to a fighter today, so now I am really wanting to stay away from focusing on melee, and if I go ranged I want to be using daggers so that I can still threaten adjacent squares and not have to switch from a bow to a melee weapon. I am considering Spiked Chain prof.

I am going to stay within earshot range of the party when I scout ahead disable traps and do some quick recon, so as not leave me to my doom in a boss room. I am playing my character as very plan oriented, precise and slightly tricky. CoA Ninja is what I want, and ghost step plays a good part in it, so I really want some suggestions for my 1st-6th level feats(3 at first, 1 at third, 1 at 6th) to benefit my intended role, which I am hoping to be Versatile Combatant>Skill Monkey=Scout.

I'm sorry for seeming so vague before, it is just my first time asking for advice on the forums and I am forgetting to give certain details about my char.

Epinephrine
2008-12-19, 07:36 AM
CoA Ninja is what I want, and ghost step plays a good part in it, so I really want some suggestions for my 1st-6th level feats(3 at first, 1 at third, 1 at 6th) to benefit my intended role, which I am hoping to be Versatile Combatant>Skill Monkey=Scout.

Ok, knowing what you want helps.
A bit confused by this, though:


I have decided against TWF...
I am really wanting to stay away from focusing on melee, and if I go ranged I want to be using daggers so that I can still threaten adjacent squares and not have to switch from a bow to a melee weapon. I am considering Spiked Chain prof.

It sounds like you really want to look at TWF. TWF can be used when using ranged attacks, allowing you to throw an extra missile. Being armed with a dagger is ok, but what's your spare hand being used for? May as well have another. And Spiked Chain is a double weapon, so again TWF is a good idea.


I am going to stay within earshot range of the party when I scout ahead disable traps and do some quick recon, so as not leave me to my doom in a boss room. I am playing my character as very plan oriented, precise and slightly tricky.

Ok, I'll have a quick think about it, and write back. For now, a few questions:

Are you set on being Human? Halfling or whisper gnome would be really good I suspect, being better at sneaking, getting an AC/attack bonus, and in the case of the halfling a bonus with thrown weapons and access to some special PrCs, while the whisper gnome gets some special abilities that suit well.

Do you want PrC suggestions at all, or just feats for the first few levels? If you want Ninja 20 that's fine, but if you want a PrC you may need certain feats to get into it.

Keld Denar
2008-12-19, 08:29 AM
Don't let ericgrau poison your thoughts. TWF doesn't work the way he says it does. It doesn't give you an EXTRA -10 penalty...what it does it it gives you your 3rd iterative attack with your offhand. 3rd iterative attacks are ALWAYS at a -10, because...well...they are 3rd iterative attacks. Primary attack, -1; secondary attack, -5; tertiary attack -10; quaternary attack, -15. Thats the way D&D attack sequences go. The wording on TWF just makes this kind of hard to realize. So, a rogue with an 11 BAB who doesn't have any TWF feats has an attack sequence like +11/+6/+1, while one who DOES have TWF has an attack sequence like +9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1, which includes the total -2 on all attacks due to using TWF. See, you double your number of attacks. And you know what double your attacks means? Double your SA damage. So, his whole claim about -10 to your attacks is a scare tactic. Your 3rd attack is already at -10, but why not take a feat to gain another one? TWF is the best way to get more damage as a rogue, on top of the feats you already have, like Craven. You should be getting enough bonus to hit from flanking/invisible, your +dex mod, magic weapon modifiers, and any group buffs you get like Haste or Recitation, etc.

Its not a huge investment for you, actually, since your DM is giving you Craven and Weapon Finesse as freebees. That leaves you room to take other feats, like TWF.

Just because your have TWF, doesn't mean you can't be versatile. You still get the same number of skill points, you still use similar tactics, and you have the same survivability, or lack there of. Using a spiked chain at reach is gonna do nothing to stop a foe from 5' stepping and attacking you, or, if that foe is large, from just attacking you without moving. You might as well be close then, and TWF with daggers.

I'd go even so far as to say that you shouldn't even worry about a ranged weapon past about level 6. You lose far fewer rounds of full attacking swapping between weapons, and if it really is a foe that you can't physically reach, you should either A) wait hidden for that foe to come to you; B) wait for your friendly caster to either transport you to it, or transport it to you; or C) Utilize magical means such as Boots of Big Stepping, Cloak of the Mountebank, Shadow Hand maneuvers (again, bribe your DM!), or similar to transport yourself into melee range. You'll be far more useful in combat than sitting in the back plinking away with a short bow doing MAYBE 1d6+1. That is, unless you have Greater Invis running, in which case you should already be in melee to take advantage of that G Invis to get all that sweet sweet SA damage with TWF.

Make sense?

Magnus7
2008-12-19, 08:31 AM
I'm not planning on going into a PrC at the moment as I would much prefer to stay ninja. I am more interested in the early levels, however, which is why I am having such a hard time deciding on the feats. But yeah, I would go TWF with a chain weapon, thinking of an order for feats if I do. Liiiike. At first level get TWF, Chain Prof, Craven, idk what i would take at 3rd and 6th, other than Imp and Weapon Finesse if my str rolls low.

Or. Go daggers. TWF, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, then get Quick Draw at 3rd level and Rapid Shot at 6th. I would have 3 attacks thrown, two in melee still. I am kind of stuck on human, mostly for the extra feat. Strongheart halfings get a free feat don't they? Like, in place of the +1 to savings throws... if so that would be really nice for that build.

Magnus7
2008-12-19, 08:43 AM
I meant to go back and delete what I said about not going TWF *goes and changes that*

And the thing about ranged weapons: That is why I plan to use thrown weapons, if I don't go the chain route. And about the chain, my party is VERY heavy melee, like almost entirely now, so having the reach could make a big difference for my char if I can't get into 5ft range due to walls, corners, etc. That was also the main reason I wanted to keep my character as versatile as I can as far as melee and range.

Epinephrine
2008-12-19, 09:38 AM
Well, I don't have my books with me, but the Daggers, TWF, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw (3rd), Rapid Shot (6th) looks solid.

Yes, Strongheart halflings get an extra feat, like humans. I believe (from memory)they retain the +1 to hit with slings and thrown weapons and a racial +2 to move silently, and their Small size gives +4 to Hide and +1 to hit and AC. Not exactly shabby if that's the case; more Dex, good hide/move silently stats, and a total of +2 more to hit with those thrown daggers compared to a human (not to mention the Dex bonus).

Going straight ninja is perfectly fine, but I figure I'll mention a few things to consider:

Class dips in a few classes might be possible:
Obviously, fighter gives bonus feats. Can be handy, especially if you really need a few extra feats; the save bonus, HP, and BAB aren't shabby either, though it'll hurt your skills.
Some might allow a dip for the fighter-feat variant rogue. Rogue is the halfling preferred class anyway - if this option is open to you you may want to pick up a level or two for the bonus feats, as it doesn't hurt your skill progression either.
Warlock is possible for an invocation or two, but it doesn't sound like your style.
Marshal is a bit cheesy, but some might like it for the motivate dexterity.

Possible PrCs if you feel like them later:
Invisible Blade PrC (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm). It's a dagger fighting class, requires Point Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus (dagger), as well as 8 ranks of Bluff, 6 ranks of Sense Motive. You'd probably want to alternate levels of it with levels of Ninja to keep building your skill points/keep important skills maxed out, as it only gets 4+Int per level. 10 levels long, but by 5th you have some solid abilities.

Whisperknife: don't have a link to it, but it's a dagger throwing halfling-only PrC. Has some nice effects, like being able to feint and flank(!) with your thrown dagger attacks. 10 levels long, with some of the good stuff at the end.

Thief-Acrobat: If you really want to be the acrobat-type. Only 5 levels long.

Dread Commando: Only 5 levels long. Continues Sudden Strike abilities, and lets you do faster movement while being stealthy. Also gets an initiative bonus equal to class level (nice!), and grants this bonus to your allies too (nice!!). Requires two pretty weak feats - Dodge and Mobility, though they do lead nicely to Elusive Target, or to Spring Attack, if you want to be able to play that way. You'd probably want 2 levels of Fighter or Variant Rogue to grab the silly feats for it, but it does suit the infiltrator type, and gives a solid (team-wide) initiative bonus, meaning that you're likely to be acting early.

Magnus7
2008-12-19, 10:14 AM
Hmm... After looking at invisible blade again, it is quite enticing for my char. No armor already, I would get Dex, Int, and Wis to AC. That as well as all that you mentioned. If I do that, I would probably take 2 levels of the rogue variant to grab finesse and weapon focus as my 4th and 5th char levels, then could jump into Invisible Blade at 6th.

Right now, this is looking to be a reallllly good setup.

I am still looking at chain weapons, because if I twf a chain lash I can have reach and threaten it while using a couple other feats on something. Which I am wondering right now if chain reach weapons(even twf) are worth the feat if I am just using it for the extra threatened squares and not planning on using trip ability. Or, maybe I could go ahead and grab Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as I level, even if it isn't going to be the strongest trip attempt I would still have a good ability to use a fair amount of the time. You mentioned that spiked chain was a double weapon, and I haven't been able to find any errata that mentions that, I speculate it might be something from 3.0?

Epinephrine
2008-12-19, 10:42 AM
You mentioned that spiked chain was a double weapon, and I haven't been able to find any errata that mentions that, I speculate it might be something from 3.0?

My mistake then. I haven't ever used it, and was going from (obviously faulty) memory.

Magnus7
2008-12-19, 10:58 AM
Ah, no worries, then. Still looking into combat expertise and improved trip.

Magnus7
2008-12-19, 11:54 AM
I think I have found exactly what I want.
I can go straight ninja. (At least due to my DM deeming I can use Sudden Strike as sneak attack)
Here it is.

1 Ninja Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon(Chain Lash)
2 Ninja
3 Ninja Vexing Flanker
4 Ninja
5 Ninja
6 Ninja Adaptable Flanker
7 Ninja
8 Ninja
9 Ninja Spectral Skirmisher

Adaptable flanker allows me to act as if my character occupies a square I threaten for flanking benefits as well as the square I am actually in, and with the Chain Lash I can get into melee and use the reach to threaten a square on the opposite side of my opponent, thus flanking with myself. It is in fact legit and WotC has confirmed this. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=669441

EXCITEMENT!!!

Keld Denar
2008-12-19, 12:36 PM
Flanking feats don't really do much for a Ninja. Sudden Strike only works when a foe is flat footed. Sneak Attack works when a foe is flat footed OR flanked. That's one of the primary reasons why ninja's are considered to be a very bad class. That, and almost all of their abilities are usable once per day, and once you are out of Ki, you kind of suck. They make great NPCs for a DM to sick on PCs, but they just don't have the longevity to last a full adventuring day of 3-6 encounters as a PC.

That means all of those flanking feats you are taking do absolutely nothing other than give you +2 to hit. No bonus damage at all...which sucks.

Magnus7
2008-12-19, 01:10 PM
I think I have found exactly what I want.
I can go straight ninja. (At least due to my DM deeming I can use Sudden Strike as sneak attack)

^^^

I am aware of the ninja's shortcomings by the book, though. And yeah, it makes me sad. I think a good part of it could simply be fixed by changing how their ki points are calculated. For instance, simply giving them a ki pool total equal to the sum of their Ninja level and their Wisdom modifier. It wouldn't change the size of their ki pool at first level, so it wouldn't boost it as a single class dip any, gives more uses of ghost step, which is more free sudden strikes.


That wouldn't fix everything, but I think it would be a good start. I saw thread a few days ago where somebody was reworking the CoA Ninja, I forgot all the things that were changed.

DiscipleofBob
2008-12-19, 01:14 PM
I would at least consider Ninja 2. Ghost Step is an amazingly awesome ability for rogue-ish characters, even if you only get to use it a couple times per day.

With your original Rogue TWF build, I'd think the Invisible Blade PrC from Complete Adventurer would be awesome for you. If you want to go ranged (particularly thrown weapons), Master Thrower is another very awesome PrC.