Idea: Persona 4 in Ravenloft: Facing Yourself

[Leliel]

I've been watching MasterLL's Persona 4 videos (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=88EE209A948816A2) (for purposes of this discussion, skip to the boss fights to see what I'm talking about), and although they're not complete, I've been quickly enthralled by the idea of Shadow Personae-beings literally created from your own flaws.

After watching the videos, I realized that the TV world was pretty much already a Ravenloft domain, with the exception of the modern technology.

And honestly, what's more Gothic then fighting your own evil?

So, what do you think about adapting them to Ravenloft?

[lisiecki]

I've been watching MasterLL's
And honestly, what's more Gothic then fighting your own evil?
[/b]

Yes but what happens when the PCs are more evil than you can potray them?
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051018
At some point your going to have an evil twin whos the good one...

[Tengu_temp]

Yes, but what happens when the PCs are completely without any vices?

I think there's an unspoken assumption that this is an idea for a group of good/neutral, but not boringly perfect characters, duh. If you have a player who acts like Black Mage in a non-comedy campaign the first thing you do every session is shove a d4 up his nose, anyway.

Anyway, can't comment. Still busy playing Persona 3. I can give my input to this idea in a month or so.

[Leliel]

Yes, but what happens when the PCs are completely without any vices?



Then they belong in bad fanfiction (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue), not my game.

And in any case, that was just a general assumption which applies to most people. A Shadow Persona is actually a part of a person that the person seeks to reject, pretend that which is not part of them. So the TV world grants their wish, creating a dopplganger that embodies that part, given free will.

In most people, that's a vice.

Exceptions exist, of course. The game also features the Shadow of Mitsuo, a murderer who, as the WoD would put it, has a pretty low Morality score.

In his case, he represses the fear that he will go eternally unrecognized, a nothing. So his Shadow Persona embodies that, a being with a minimal personality and powers based on hiding behind a shell.

But since Ravenloft mandates that the characters be good, he doesn't apply.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Yes but what happens when the PCs are more evil than you can potray them?

Then they're playing Ravenloft wrong, and should already be several steps along the way to becoming a darklord, suffering from nasty curses that used to seem beneficial, and should probably be NPCs already.

Seriously, you shouldn't have an evil PC in Ravenloft - it doesn't work with the theme. And Powers Checks ensure you won't be evil for very long: after all, the whole reason Ravenloft exists is to torture evildoers, not the good guys. The good guys' suffering is incidental...


Yes, but what happens when the PCs are completely without any vices?

Bad/shallow characterization is hard to overcome, yes.


OP: I assume you want more than just a one-off fight with mirror-images? I'd probably go with actually obviously warped versions of the PCs, along the lines of the transformations for PCs who fail Powers Checks. List us 1-2 big vices/sins/fears for each PC, and let's see if we can get some ideas going.

Things about their past they want to escape, or weaknesses in themselves they're aware of and want to change or suppress would probably work best. The typical gothic vices - cruelty, hubris, avarice, lust, and so on - would probably be most fitting, too.

[Leliel]

OP: I assume you want more than just a one-off fight with mirror-images? I'd probably go with actually obviously warped versions of the PCs, along the lines of the transformations for PCs who fail Powers Checks. List us 1-2 big vices/sins/fears for each PC, and let's see if we can get some ideas going.

Yep.

I haven't actually started the game yet, but I can list my three characters major faults that they would like to get rid of.

Math ab MacCool: Fatalism, hatred of gods (was exiled from home due to divine prophecy)

Alain Figolo: Hubris, Guilt (wishes to create soul for puppet in memory of his dead wife-when he knows it's much eaiser to steal one)

Joshu Tabris: Misanthropy, Selfishness (wants to create empire, but rule it fairly)

Things about their past they want to escape, or weaknesses in themselves they're aware of and want to change or suppress would probably work best. The typical gothic vices - cruelty, hubris, avarice, lust, and so on - would probably be most fitting, too.

Umm....See above.

[Tengu_temp]

This:

Yes, but what happens when the PCs are completely without any vices?

was my sarcastic comment to this:

Yes but what happens when the PCs are more evil than you can potray them?
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051018
At some point your going to have an evil twin whos the good one...

I didn't mean it straight.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes, but what happens when the PCs are completely without any vices?Then you're playing Persona 3, not 4.

I love my emo-haired avatar in that game, but he's a little too badass and messianic for his own good. Then again, he works very hard to be so, at least when I'm playing him.

[Tengu_temp]

Emo Tengu, on the other hand, can be a horrible smartass sometimes - he told Bebe that "hasta la vista" is a genuine Japanese way of saying goodbye. Among other things.

[Cubey]

Then you're playing Persona 3, not 4.

I love my emo-haired avatar in that game, but he's a little too badass and messianic for his own good. Then again, he works very hard to be so, at least when I'm playing him.

Nah. Vices can be found in everyone. Maybe not to the "you shall be cast to Dante's inferno!" extent, but everyone has flaws. Including the main P3 character.

If you're trying to max out your social links, stats, and go to Tartarus for XP/loot often like a good powergamer should, your flaw is Greed. If you're not, it's Sloth. And that's just using the classic Seven Deadly Sins.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay, I'll cop to greed at least, seeing as I want all the best equipment and crap for this game and to carry into the New Game +. Doesn't mean I won't buy Yukari a 15000 Yen handbag too.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Hatred of gods is a bit difficult, since the gods of Ravenloft aren't quite real. Blasphemy and the like is still possible (although it seems like it's more a matter of defiling something you believe in on some level; so can we assume that Math ab MacCool believes in gods, but hates them anyway?). Incorporating blasphemy or desecration of his culture's beliefs should work. Fatalism is tricky, too, since it seems like it would mostly lead to passivity or inaction. I suppose you could combine this into the first, though: a certainty of doom. The shadow-self could appear cursed and doomed, by the gods he defiles against?

For Figolo, you might try a Victor von Mordenheim -like figure, consumed by his quest, thwarted by his hubris, and driven insane by his guilt. A manic-depressive figure, alternating between obsessive mania and pursuit of his blasphemous goal, and morose, self-destructive depression brought on by the inevitable failures of his goals and the guilt that wracks him over his evil actions when his mania wears off. Alternately, he could be more of a Jack the Ripper -type (I forget which domain has that guy already; but if they couldn't come up with original darklords, why shouldn't you steal good ideas too?), or like the Alchemist villain in the film Vidocq: stalking people, especially beggars and prostitutes and others likely to be outside after dark by themselves, murdering them and using their blood or essence or souls to power his insane machinery, then sinking into a depression and attempting suicide over his guilt when his experiments fail and he realizes he's taken a life for nothing.

Tabris is hard. What comes to mind is a ruler who tries to rule fairly, but is forced (more by his own fear and wish to hold to what he has than by the circumstances), time and time again, to be a tyrant and exercise cruel and ruthless control over his subjects. He struggles with his paranoia and the remnants of his conscience.

To properly represent these sins, it might be necessary to make each shadow a villain in its own right, and let the party tackle them one-by-one, taking several adventures/sessions for each. Maybe start the PCs out unaware of the true nature of these villains, and work up to the dread revelation of familiarity.

It's important that these shadow-selves never do the right thing, despite their internal conflicts. They should be hopeless: no matter how bad they feel, how they regret, they inevitably make the wrong, evil choice when push comes to shove.