When was OotS 286 posted?

[Simanos]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html
I think I tried to do something like that to my group's paladin 1 or 2 years ago (probably 20 months) and I want to know if this strip was my inspiration or I thought of it on my own too.

[Occasional Sage]

Searching the Giant's posts, the oldest OotS thread it shows is for #381, which was posted on 11/25/2006. I believe that at that point he was updating roughly three times per week, so ~100 strips would be around 30 weeks earlier than that.

EDIT:

Ah, here we go. Feb 25, 2006 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6097).

[Linkavitch]

What I want to know is how exactly that strip has anything to do with paladins, unless you made it lose it's paladinhood. By the way. Do paladins worship entire groups of gods, like the Southern or Eastern? Or do they have a single patron god like clerics? And can you have Evil Paladins?

[Zevox]

Do paladins worship entire groups of gods, like the Southern or Eastern? Or do they have a single patron god like clerics? And can you have Evil Paladins?
For the first two, it varies based on the setting. By D&D default, they have a single patron. I've known some Forgotten Realms fans to permit them to worship an entire Pantheon, though, and plainly in the OotS world they do just that with the southern gods.

As for evil Paladins, not using the normal class - normal Paladins must always be Lawful Good, and any Paladin that switches to any other alignment becomes a Fallen Paladin, losing all their class powers. In the core rules there is a prestige class that is basically an evil Paladin though, the Blackguard; and in some extra supplements there are variants for other alignments, such as the Paladin of Tyrrany (Lawful Evil) or Paladin of Slaughter (Chaotic Evil) from Unearthed Arcana.

Zevox

[Simanos]

Those last 2 are BS classes. Really, Blackguard is there for a reason.

Yes, I "tried" to make him lose paladinhood. I was an Elven Female Rogue and he was an Aasimar Male Paladin who was being really annoying. My character was role played like he was pushing him with wisdom to keep him on the right path and make him "grow", but in the back of my mind (meta gaming) I wanted to force him to make an error. In our final confrontation he attacked me with intent to kill, while I was unarmed and not resisting, only trying to teach him wisdom by using words and he brought me to -9 hitpoints before the rest of the party saved me. He even continued attacking me when I was on the floor with 0 hitpoints. He just couldn't leave and let live. Of course I didn't stop speaking all the way to the grave. The healer saved my life, but I departed soon after. My character couldn't cope with a murderous teammate and I couldn't cope with a DM who didn't make him lose paladin status right then and there as he should. Just because I didn't die (cause of -10 hitpoint rule) doesn't mean he didn't have intent to kill an innocent. He didn't even use nonlethal attacks which would have sufficed if he only wanted to shut me up (which was another excuse), since I was also not fighting back. My alignment was Neutral Good and I played it near perfectly till then (unlike Belkar). My offense was that I kept talking and partly cause my character was a woman and an elf.

I've been always torn inside on whether I wanted to make him fall or honestly keep him from failing like my Character did. Being a level below the others in the party (3 vs 4) and being drained a level by a wight (2) sure didn't help my Rogue in that (unsneakable) undead infested pocket dimension we were sucked in. That tower without traps or secret doors. OK maybe I was a bit pissed too :smallredface:
In the end I left the group (we remained good friends though), my character died in the Tower and the paladin was severely beaten and humiliated upon return to his superiors who had sent us on this mission.

Thanks for the thread link Sage. I guess it's quite probable that I read the OotS 286, before trying to pull that off. It probably didn't influence my desire to harm him, but maybe it gave me ideas, at least subconsciously.

[Zevox]

Those last 2 are BS classes. Really, Blackguard is there for a reason.
I'd agree if the Blackguard weren't a Prestige Class. While the Blackguard does a better job as an evil Paladin class, players can't take it immediately, and are thus forced to spend time as an evil Fighter/Rogue, Ranger, or whatever else to meet some slightly odd prerequisites (5 ranks in Hide? Improved Sunder? so all Blackguards are both sneaky types and heavy melee warriors?) to become one. Meanwhile, Paladin of Slaughter/Tyrrany can be taken from level 1, even if they're not as good quality for the role as the Blackguard.

Personally, if it were up to, I'd make the Blackguard into a base class much like the Paladin, and give the Paladin similar benefits if they're a Risen Blackguard as the Blackguard gets for being a Fallen Paladin. But it's not up to me.

Zevox

[Rinzy]

Those last 2 are BS classes. Really, Blackguard is there for a reason.


I'm a fan of the variants myself. The blackguard may be there for a reason, but who is to say that en evil god (especially a lawful one, such as Hextor) can't have a military branch with similar function to 'paladins'? If someone wants to play something like that, why should they have to start as a 'good' paladin and fall? Someone out there is going to make that choice from the start, I see no reason for it to be unavailable to the player from the start as well.

As for the OPs question, I've never done it myself but I did play in a game last Spring where the DM offered both the groups paladin and myself (a druid) the opportunity to 'fall' via a plot hooks. The group was seperated and we were all trapped in scenarios where our characters had to face one of their biggest personality flaws or a skeleton in their closet. The group's paladin was required to fight an old friend of his who had fallen and become a blackguard.

The paladin managed to incapacitate him and had the opportunity to strike him down while helpless, and chose not to do so. That would have caused him to fall. I was put in a similar situation where I was presented with the chance to kill someone who had damaged my old grove, but doing so woul have destroyed trees as well. That would have resulted in my 'fall' due to being more interested in revenge than in the wellbeing of the grove.

It was all illusionay, of course, but if we made a choice as if it had been real, the consequences would have stood.

[Kish]

Those last 2 are BS classes. Really, Blackguard is there for a reason.
I concur. There's no point to having blackguards exist in a campaign where paladins of Slaughter or Tyranny exist--and no point to having holy liberators exist in a campaign where paladins of Freedom exist. (Never mind the incredibly lame, "They're like paladins, only with, uh, a different class skill" implementation.)

I'm a fan of the variants myself. The blackguard may be there for a reason, but who is to say that en evil god (especially a lawful one, such as Hextor) can't have a military branch with similar function to 'paladins'? If someone wants to play something like that, why should they have to start as a 'good' paladin and fall?

They shouldn't and they don't. What does that have to do with the Blackguard class or the price of tea in China? :smallyuk:

(Don't confuse "this obnoxious Blackguard=fallen paladin meme roams the Internet" with "the actual Blackguard class description lists being a fallen paladin among its prerequisites.")

[Assassin89]

(Don't confuse "this obnoxious Blackguard=fallen paladin meme roams the Internet" with "the actual Blackguard class description lists being a fallen paladin among its prerequisites.")

Being a fallen paladin is only a prerequisite for certain abilities. Otherwise anyone evil can become a blackguard. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm

Otherwise the question of this particular post has been answered.

[Lord_Butters_I]

I made the Paladin into a prestige class myself, and took off the lawful requirement. Paladins work better when condensed anyway.