Batman's Bane: The Joker

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, by now just about everyone knows that Batman referrs to a Wizard constructed with a certain individual's guide in mind, eschewing blasty damage for status effects, crowd control, and finding more ways to get out of any situation than any other class.

So, how do you combat this? How can a GM challenge a Batman Wizard? The answer, my friend, lies in the humble Bard.

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This idea came to me whilst watching Dark Knight on DVD. I started wondering how to stat out the Joker from that movie, and how he would compare to a Batman Wizard, and how he would adapt to the D&D setting. So the build I have here is really more of a specific character build, but many of the concepts that lie herin can give Bards a much-needed boost.

I am creating this build as a concept, fitting form and flavor of the Joker. The greatest inspiration I had was the Joker from Dark Knight, although there are a few other 'jokers' which I pulled a bit of form and fluff from. The build is actually fairly powerful, in a sub-optimized sort of way, but the point isn't to be 'the best of the best of the best'. While I would greatly appreciate any and all feedback and suggestions, I won't break away from the 'flavor' that I've built up.

The Joker is a concept build, specifically envisioned to be a BBEG. He's not supposed to be able to walk up to a Batman Wizard and kill him. He's supposed to challenge Batman. He does this best by being nowhere near Batman, and by being impossible to predict. He is the counter to Batman. If Batman can counter any threat he can prepare for, then the Joker is the one person who can always come up with something Batman didn't prepare for. After all, even Batman has a limited number of spells he can cast per day.

The Joker, as a BBEG, is designed to not only counter Batman Wizard, but his party as well. After all, we couldn't play with him all the time and not let others get in the game, can we? While he is specifically built to counter most of what Batman can do, this is because Batman is going to be the most powerful person in the group. He is also a significant pain in the side for any CoDZilla or UberCharger as well.

The Concept
Okay, so we're trying to build the Joker. What, exactly, does he do that makes him such a pain in the neck to Batman? Toys? Naw, Batman has more toys than the Joker (Where does he get all those toys?). Badd-assery? Nope, Batman whups up on Joker every time they get into a confrontation. So what is it, then?

First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

Second, Joker always has another trick up his sleeve. No matter how many things Batman takes into account and plans for, no matter how close to finally nabbing the Joker... there's always that last trick the Joker has up his sleeve to get away.

Third, he has no morals whatsoever. He has no rules, no limitations. He is prepared to do anything and everything to further his goals. He is quite decidedly Chaotic Evil. He is an agent of chaos, and there is not the slightest bit of doubt that he is nearly the iconic personification of Evil. He would not hesitate in the slightest to use any moral standard Batman might have, and throw it right back in Batman's face. Blowing up villages is just plain fun. Assassinating important persons is what he gets his jollies out of. Kicking puppies is old hat.

Moreover, he uses people. He uses them a lot. He'll twist their little plans on themselves. And he has no qualms about killing his minions or sending them on suicide missions either.

He is very tricksey, my precious. Nothing is as it seems when you're facing the Joker. Illusion, deception, and trickery are all things that he is addicted to. Furthermore, he is able to fool even the ultimate researcher into preparing wrongly for an encounter.

Game Mechanics

Okay, so now that we have a concept, we need to figure out how to impliment it.

We're sure he needs the following:

1) Insane Bluff/IntimidateDiplomancy checks
2) A way of bypassing Detect Lies or Compelling Truth
3) A way of being immune to scrying
4) A way of 'keeping tabs' on everything that is going on
5) Charm/Dominate effects would certainly be fitting
6) Illusion spells are also key, although trying to find a way to make them impervious to True Sight will be difficult.
7) 'NO' buttons

So, Bard.

Wait, why bard? It's one of the weaker classes in the PhB. Perhaps not the weakest, but still nothing close to the power of the Wizard class his opponent will be using.

Because it's deliciously devious.

First off, Perform (Oratory). Nothing says that when he is talking, he can't be making both Perform Oratory checks AND Bluff checks. With a use of Bardic Music to Facinate, he can then use Suggestion, which is entirely fitting for his character.

Glibness. This spell alone makes the entire concept workable.

Now he needs to be immune to mind affecting and divination... wait, no he doesn't. The only divination he needs to worry about is Discern Location. The rest of them allow a Will save, which he can more than easily beat, thanks to a simple feat that lets him use his Cha mod for Will saves.

He doesn't need Contingency to have get away plans, nor does he need it to be able to make Get Out Of Anything cards and NO buttons. He just needs a little... ingenuity.

EDIT: Joker no longer needs high-level spells to do what he needs to do. The PrC Spymaster is a great way of bypassing such requirements. And he'd probably be better off with False Vision anyways.

Build *UPDATED*
Changling Rogue1/Bard19

Relevant Spells:
Glibness, of course
Most of the Charm/Dominate spells
Freedom of Movement
Detect Scry
False Vision

Relevant Feats:
Force of Personality (lets him use his high CHA mod for Will saves... like against Scrying)
Changling Racial Feat to bypass any on-the-spot scrying (since most parties just use Detect Evil or maybe Detect Thoughts to make sure the BBEG isn't hiding around, low enough to be affected by it)
Subsonics (negates verbal cues from magic/music)

EDIT: Mind Blank may not be as necessary as I once thought, and most of the other wiz/sorc spells he won't be needing. If a way to counter Discern Location can be found, he may not need any PrC's at all, and just be a straight Bard!

Tactics

Okay, so we know he can't go toe to toe with Batman. No one can. So how can he be a challenge?

Time Pressure. Kidnap someone/steal something dearly important. Send a Message telling Batman that if he doesn't stop him in (time period of less than one day), he'll kill/destroy it.

Doing this isn't hard. A simple Suggestion will suffice to get most people to put themselves in a position sufficently compromising as to be able to be kidnapped. Guards on items can be Dominated long enough to surrender said item. He can also, thanks to the Rogue substitution-level, take 10 on any social skill. This guy is a master of manipulation, it's the one thing he does better than even Batman.

This puts a severe cramp in Batman's style. Batman, optimally, has enough time to determine what is going on and why, and prepare for it. This means he has to do it quickly, opening up chance for error.

Joker also is a master of misdirection. True Sight can foil any illusion... but it is still up to Batman to be able to correctly interpret what he truly sees. It won't see through Disguise checks, however.

As long as Joker can keep Batman dancing to his tune and keep Batman from being able to withdraw and re-prepare, he will have the advantage.

And, of course, as the Joker is the nemesis of Batman, so too should it be played by the nemesis of any Batman Wizard's player... the GM. Yep, that's right... the Joker is the BBEG designed to challenge any pre-epic Batman.

He's not an 'uber' caster, although he does steal some of Batman's tricks with regards to spellcasting, mostly to counter what Batman can do and to give himself more escape routes. He's a decent Skillmonkey, but that's not his focus.

He's a Mastermind type villian. He's got disposable minions. That's one of the ways he keeps from getting scried and locked down. Batman Wizard can't figure out what disposable minion the Joker is going to use for his next nefarious nemesis nullifier, and he can't scry Joker, so he just has to wait until something happens, then react. Exactly what a Batman Wizard is worst at.

He should never try to go 'toe to toe' with the party, that's not where his specialties work the best. The party will have to go after the Joker, who will either be in another castle, or you'll have to go through his Funhouse to get to him, using various means of negating methods of bypassing said Funhouse.

He is the ultimate counter to scrying. With Detect Scry and False Vision, he can fool ANY divination used to get information on him, except Discern Location. Even with Discern Location, it only gives the city he's in. So what? So's a few hundred others. Find the one needle in the very big haystack, particularly when the needle can become hay.

Your Help Requested
Right now, I'm using Sublime Chord mostly because I don't have a better way of bypassing ANY form of Scrying, and setting up Contingency to help him get away. If there is any way you know of to get these things without resorting to Sublime Chord, I'll take it, just to be able to prove that you don't need to be an uber caster to be able to challenge Batman.

Contributions

Calemyr found a way to bypass most forms of divination neatly without using magic. It's not foolproof, but it's a hell of a lot better than anything I've come up with so far, aside from Mind Blank. And since the only spell you need Mind Blank to counter is an 8th level spell, this is easily one of the best ways to go about making Joker Bard invisible to the party.
Upon further research, the Changling racial feat that makes this workable is only effective up to 3rd level spells. However, this concept is exactly the direction I'm wanting to go with tis.

This reminds me of a BBEG I've been playing with in case I ever DM a campaign: a changeling Bard. Very similar to the Joker in that his specialty would be taking the form of would-be pawns and using a combination of warped logic and persuasion to convince them that he was actually them and that they were the BBEG. In other words, every group the party finds themselves in conflict with is led by someone who honestly believes that they themselves are the mastermind. All the while the Bard is watching on, sometimes even in plain sight as timid guardsman #3 or the BBEG's well-meaning-but-misled girlfriend. It'd be like one big "I am Spartacus" scene for the villain!

The Bard wouldn't have the brute strength or awesome arcane power to overcome every conflict, but he wouldn't need it. Instead, he simply mindscrews people into doing his bidding without ever showing his face. Fighting him would be like punching fog because you're never sure if you caught the real one this time.

There are two feats that make this as dangerous as it could be. One allows a bard to cast magic as part of a perform check (and he'd have oratory or acting as perform skills). The other one is a changeling specific feat that lets them create a temporary persona for their assumed form - which means that detect thoughts/alignment/lies would be ineffective against him when he's in character. (To make things even more amusing, make his one of his alter-egos one of the party... My Own Worst Enemy, DND Style.)
Gaurd Juris found a legitimate bypass for most scrying effects.

You might want to check out the spymaster prestiege class in the complete adventurer. It doesn't boost caster level at all, but it does give you the following:

Big bonuses on disguise (and bluff)
The ability to rapidly change disguises
A bonus on saves vs. scrying
Magic Aura as a SLA to disguise magic items
The ability to fool scrying and detect thoughts with false info
Undetectable Alignment

All useful to the joker.

[Da'Shain]

I'm not enough of a 3.5 buff to tell whether this guy would actually threaten a well-built "Batman" wizard ...

But damn. This hits the Joker's character right on the head.

Forcing Batman to react instead of plan is why the Joker remains Batman's nemesis. Not because of any ridiculous fighting ability (that's what Bane is) or meeting Batman's Xanatos Gambits with his own (that's what Hush is) or anything like that: his power is just that he's almost totally unpredictable. Oh, and he can always talk himself out of too much trouble.

As you say ... Bard.

[Moff Chumley]

Very nice! I mean, it won't actually beat a Tippy Wizard, but NOTHING can. :smalltongue:

[Signmaker]

The plan.
RP-wise, he should be running under a Xanatos Roulette. Even if Batman figures out his angle, the Joker should have a contingency directly correlated to that eventuality. And a wise-cracking one too. Seeing as how the Joker always seems to have the finances for his crazy schemes (a giant gumball-shooting tank? I mean, really?), there should be sticky traps, poisonous candy shoved down your throat, etc. He is devious, and a rogue should have to spend upwards of an hour disarming all the traps in a single room.

Don't kill me just yet. (Ubercharger angle)
As for keeping himself alive versus uberchargers, how about elusive strike? The Joker seems to take hits pretty smartly (unless dealt by Batman).

My two cents on two angles.

[kladams707]

(a giant gumball-shooting tank? I mean, really?),


Great, now I can't stop thinking about a taffy golem.

[Signmaker]

Great, now I can't stop thinking about a taffy golem.

...Clayface?

[kladams707]

...Clayface?

I suppose, though I don't think he'd be as tasty.


As for the joker idea, me likey.

[Tacoma]

I think his strategy for "don't kill me yet" should just be making sure the party knows they have to capture him alive. If they kill him, he's just going to refuse Speak With Dead and any Raise attempts. The ubercharger can't afford to attack him for fear of killing him.

[BillyJimBoBob]

You've got a great idea, and the only ones which can't be countered by most of the pro-batman posts I've seen on these forums. There is only one weakness I see: Batman has to care. He has to care about either the people or the things that your Joker threatens. Any significant item which the Joker obtains could be said to be not significant enough to bother the Batman were it to be missing. Why? Because anything above the "Batman cares" threshold will be with Batman at all times. And don't we all know that the Batman Wizard care for no person other than himself? He lives in a tiny hut in a dimension far from any possible threat, and only interacts with mortals when he wants to. I don't think there is a Commissioner Gorden for the 3.x version of the Batman, no man may summon him, and he does not fight crime unless there's something in it for him. And he could care less that there's a Joker out there gunning for him, because he knows that no Joker will ever be as powerful as he.

This is, at least, my understanding of the Batman. He doesn't exist in my world, because I now play 4e. :smallbiggrin: He never existed in my prior worlds, because any GM I ran with would have just grabbed a nerf stick rather than deal with such a thought experiment possibly taking real form.

[Tacoma]

Good point. Eventually Joker will do his stuff enough to threaten something the Batman cares about - but wait. Batman keeps everything he cares about in his hut.

Sounds like the typical Batman has no nemeses and no friends, so the Joker's activities are ignored.

[Kurald Galain]

Just one point:

In the comics, the films and that corny Adam West show, Batman defeats the Joker. Always.

Methinks you need a more appropriate name for your build.

[Gorbash]

It's not really viable... First of all, Joker is smarter than Batman. Bard is not smarter than the Wizard. So, if you do use the RP approach, keep in mind that an average mid-level Wizard has Int 24 (mine has 26 at lvl 10, but whatever), and wouldn't really fall for those tricks.

[Tacoma]

Just one point:

In the comics, the films and that corny Adam West show, Batman defeats the Joker. Always.

Methinks you need a more appropriate name for your build.

You mean Batman beats up and imprisons that clown dude?

You must be mistaken. That is one of the Joker's minions. Adam West doesn't know the depth of the preparation.

EDIT:

Alfred is the real Joker.

[Da'Shain]

It's not really viable... First of all, Joker is smarter than Batman. Bard is not smarter than the Wizard. So, if you do use the RP approach, keep in mind that an average mid-level Wizard has Int 24 (mine has 26 at lvl 10, but whatever), and wouldn't really fall for those tricks.SmartER? Maybe around the same level, but smarter is pushing it. The Joker's an intelligent guy, but his strength is in defying conventional logic and rationality, which is what allows Batman to defeat foes he has no business defeating.

Also, my understanding of the ability scores is that WIS would define gullibility, not INT.

[Gorbash]

The Joker's an intelligent guy, but his strength is in defying conventional logic and rationality, which is what allows Batman to defeat foes he has no business defeating.

Yes, but here we're talking about a Bard and a Wizard, who are in no way similar to Joker and Batman.


Also, my understanding of the ability scores is that WIS would define gullibility, not INT.

I somehow doubt that Bards have high Wis...

Problem with this approach is that it's too abstract. You can't really say that the best way to defeat the Batman Wizard is you think of a clever scheme, because the player can't really act as his way-beyond-human-intelligence alter ego would.

And also if you look at some Joker's ideas, you'll notice they're downright silly (as in, there's no way that someone could predict that turn of events) and can only work in comics/movies, since there it's scripted how is Batman going to act. You as a DM could never ever predict what your player is going to do, and you'll end up doing the same as him, reacting at some player's unusual idea.

[Signmaker]

And also if you look at some Joker's ideas, you'll notice they're downright silly (as in, there's no way that someone could predict that turn of events) and can only work in comics/movies, since there it's scripted how is Batman going to act. You as a DM could never ever predict what your player is going to do, and you'll end up doing the same as him, reacting at some player's unusual idea.

Well, if a Batman is a practice in smart PC-building, then the Joker becomes a practice in smart DM-contingencies. After all, the hardest part about being a DM is coping with player entropy.

[Moff Chumley]

Well, the point is sort of moot anyway. But it's still a very cool concept.

[Gorbash]

Well, if a Batman is a practice in smart PC-building, then the Joker becomes a practice in smart DM-contingencies. After all, the hardest part about being a DM is coping with player entropy.

I agree, but making a list of spells to use and enterprising an elaborate scheme which might and might not work is not the same.

This idea is sort of like Monk (no, I don't want to start yet another monk argument, I'm just paraphrasing). It all looks nice and cool on paper, and when you try to practically apply it, it just doesn't work.

[Da'Shain]

Yes, but here we're talking about a Bard and a Wizard, who are in no way similar to Joker and Batman.Except in how they are in some ways similar, as both the original Batman idea and this thread show.


I somehow doubt that Bards have high Wis...Don't have to. Wizards don't generally either.

[Gorbash]

Except in how they are in some ways similar, as both the original Batman idea and this thread show.

Batman idea does work, because it's just an approach aptly named Batman, because he's always full of gadgets, ready for everything etc. Which translates into game terms as 'don't be a blaster'. You can't really make a viable opponent for a Wizard just by calling him Joker and making clever schemes.

And if you do try that kidnap someone approach, if I were that wizard, I'd just Scry on that person, or cast Locate Object, or Locate Person or pay a Cleric to cast Commune/Divine and then just teleport there.

There are just too many ways around it.

[Behold_the_Void]

I think we can assume that this is meant for a game in which the Wizard player is actually engaged and interested, and thus isn't just shutting down everything. Batman/Joker dynamic definitely does work here, but you need to have players engaged enough for there to be enough emotional impact.

Also, there's another class that may actually work here - Psion Telepath. They get the social skills from their discipline, and they have all kinds of interesting mental-influencing abilities. Of course, they don't really have as much in the way of illusions, but a well-built Telepath is both incredibly intelligent and capable of flaying the minds of people on a whim.

[Telonius]

Even if he weren't actively engaged already, a high-level wizard is pretty darn legendary. Which makes him - and by extension things that he cares about - subject to a Bardic Knowledge check.

Consider it for a moment. Joker always knows which buttons to push to get on Batman's nerves. How does he know? Not from smarts or research. A Bardic Knowledge check would be a pretty good mechanical stand-in for the kind of lunatic intuition that the Joker seems to have.


And if you do try that kidnap someone approach, if I were that wizard, I'd just Scry on that person, or cast Locate Object, or Locate Person or pay a Cleric to cast Commune/Divine and then just teleport there.

There are just too many ways around it.

Does the Joker ever kidnap someone assuming Batman isn't going to show up?

[Gorbash]

And like someone said already, Batman always find a way to turn the tables.

[Behold_the_Void]

And like someone said already, Batman always find a way to turn the tables.

Which is further why the Joker concept here is good. It's not supposed to be an insurmountable challenge, but it is one that will cause a lot of trouble for the part.

[Sholos]

Batman idea does work, because it's just an approach aptly named Batman, because he's always full of gadgets, ready for everything etc. Which translates into game terms as 'don't be a blaster'. You can't really make a viable opponent for a Wizard just by calling him Joker and making clever schemes.

And if you do try that kidnap someone approach, if I were that wizard, I'd just Scry on that person, or cast Locate Object, or Locate Person or pay a Cleric to cast Commune/Divine and then just teleport there.

There are just too many ways around it.

Sorry, the place the person is being held is teleport proof.

[Lappy9000]

Just one point:

In the comics, the films and that corny Adam West show, Batman defeats the Joker. Always.

Methinks you need a more appropriate name for your build.

Gads, I'm sick of that response.

Works great in comics and other things where a plot is scripted, but not-so-much in role-playing games (excluding heavily rail-roading games).

Especially since the ShneekeyTheLost stated that the build is for a villain to challenge the batman, and do it with style, not to destroy him.

By those standards, I think the build achieves it's aims quite well. And with style. Lots of style :smallcool:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Batman idea does work, because it's just an approach aptly named Batman, because he's always full of gadgets, ready for everything etc. Which translates into game terms as 'don't be a blaster'. You can't really make a viable opponent for a Wizard just by calling him Joker and making clever schemes. Actually, the whole reason why I built him as a bard was to bypass most of the ways Batman uses to become more powerful than any given encounter... his ability to do his research first.


And if you do try that kidnap someone approach, if I were that wizard, I'd just Scry on that person, or cast Locate Object, or Locate Person or pay a Cleric to cast Commune/Divine and then just teleport there.

There are just too many ways around it.

May I direct you to a spell on the Bard list called False Vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseVision.htm)? Scry away. Please, by all means, scry away. A lower-level Bard spell is Detect Scry. So drop both down. Batman scries, Joker senses this and starts his puppet show in motion for Batman's viewing pleasure. Then, when Batman pops in, he finds himself with a full spell list prepared for the exact wrong circumstances.

Also, with Mind Blank up, Joker himself cannot be scried. Since he moves around a lot, you can't scry his 'headquarters' because he doesn't have one until he walks into a random building and sets up temporary shop. He improvises with materials he has on hand, so again, nothing TO scry.

Batman is always ready for anything... but not even Batman can be ready for everything. See how useful he is when he's prepared for the wrong scenario... still powerful, granted, but not game-shatteringly powerful.

Also, Ubercharger won't be able to do anything unless Ubercharger is completely immune to Mind Affecting. Joker's Will Save DC's are horrid. Also, Joker will likely be picking at him if he has any FB levels, forcing him to frenzy over and over again with no viable threats other than his allies. Even if Ubercharger is immune to mind-affecting... that's why he has Forcecage, forcing Ubercharger to have a Time-Out.

In the spell description of Legend Lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm[/url)...

As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds. so Bardic Knowledge checks aside, Joker's got a way of getting all KINDS of info on the PC's.

For the suggestion of using a Telepath... I did consider that long and hard, however it just doesn't have the flash and dash that Joker had, not to mention not nearly as good at non-spell(psionic) means of suggestability. Joker, as built, can walk into an AMF, convince the Samurai acting under direct orders from the Shogun that he had gravely dishonored his family and his leige, and furthermore convince the Samurai to commit seppiku. He's that damn good. Without magic.

That's the other thing about Joker. He's not reliant on Magic for everything. Sure, it really helps level the playing field vs Batman, but he doesn't need to use magic at all to get most of his plans started.

And as to how the Joker can get a Batman Wizard's attention who doesn't care about anything... wave an artifact under his nose and see if he doesn't jump too it. That type wants more power... show him a way where he can get more, and he'll go headlong right into it.

And finally... Yes, Batman always defeats Joker. Always. That's not the point. Joker is a BBEG. He's supposed to be beaten by the PC's. Yet he's also got enough tricks in his bag to be able to escape, even in defeat. And he's bad enough to be a constant pain in the PC's side. Thus... the Bane of their existance. Bane doesn't mean 'will kill', after all. It means 'the counter to'. Joker negates or nerfs most of Batman's more blatant 'I Win' buttons.

[Behold_the_Void]

Hmm... nonmagically, what am I missing that the Bard has to give him potent social boosts the Psion doesn't get outside of just an inherently much higher Charisma? I guess easier access to skills, but I think the Telepath has all the important social ones and while he doesn't get a lot of skill points a level, his intelligence should make up for it pretty well.

[Superglucose]

I like it. It would be really, really fun to play a wizard against this guy, or hell, a whole party with this bard as the BBEG. Especially with the Shadow [school] spells and illusions you could lead the party to believe they're facing an epic wizard... to run into an epic Bard. And Bards can diplomance any allies they may need to take out this wizard.

Also, yes, a wizard who sits on his own demiplane completely ignoring the material plane is immune to the effects of the joker. But so what? Why are you even playing if all you're going to do is sit on a plane chuckling about how impossible it is for anyone to hurt you?

Don't forget people, D&D is a game. We play it to have fun and participate in a story. It's why DMs don't have to expressly say "no pun-pun."

[Gorbash]

Also, with Mind Blank up, Joker himself cannot be scried. Since he moves around a lot, you can't scry his 'headquarters' because he doesn't have one until he walks into a random building and sets up temporary shop. He improvises with materials he has on hand, so again, nothing TO scry.

Ok, everything else is more or less viable... But this? Bards now have access to lvl 8 Wizard spells? :smallconfused:


Actually, the whole reason why I built him as a bard was to bypass most of the ways Batman uses to become more powerful than any given encounter... his ability to do his research first.

I'm playing a Batman wizard for quite some time now and when I do have the time to do the research I change... 3-4 spells I prepare, at the most (If I know we're facing a red Dragon, I'll prepare Mass Fire Shield and perhaps a few others, but why would I change other 20 spells, the encounter isn't gonna last that long anyway?). Out of 20+, because some spells are either mandatory or good in any given situation. So this:


Then, when Batman pops in, he finds himself with a full spell list prepared for the exact wrong circumstances.

Doesn't work either. Sure, I won't prepare Stinking Cloud if I see a bunch of undead and end up fighting... Babaus, but Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Slow, Flesh to Ice, Unluck, Zone of Peace, Web, Orbs work on virtually everything and these are spells which no sane Batman would ever want off his memorized spell list. And these are only spells up to lvl 5.

So, in reality, you'll manage to fool the Wizard to waste some of his spells, but even without those he'll be more than a match. God forbid he spends a couple of rounds buffing (under Greater/Superior Invisibility, of course) and you find yourself facing a polymorphed, stoneskinned, heroismed, hasted, dragonskinned, hearth of earthed, mirror imaged, fearsome grappled, mage armored, shielded, karmic aura'd Huge, with AC well into 30s, angry wizard. Once again these are only spells up to 5th lvl. It get's worse, since that Bard of yours is at least 13th lvl (lvl 5th bard spells), meaning lvl 7 wizard spells, which I'm sure are awful.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm... nonmagically, what am I missing that the Bard has to give him potent social boosts the Psion doesn't get outside of just an inherently much higher Charisma? I guess easier access to skills, but I think the Telepath has all the important social ones and while he doesn't get a lot of skill points a level, his intelligence should make up for it pretty well.

High Charisma + high social skills. I thought that the Bardic Music was (Ex), but upon further examination, I realize it's (SU) and (SP).

Bard is even better than Telepath outside of AMF due to Facinate/Suggestion from Bardic Music without even touching his spell list. Plus the spell Glibness is a +30 to Bluff check, and can bypass effects which sense falsehood or compel truth.

I fail to see what a Telepath has over the Bard for his chosen profession. Bards can Dominate and Charm just as well, and probably do it more times per day. They also are better at gathering information on the PC's.

Granted, the Telepath is probably better for in-combat 'will save or be my slave', but that's kind of rude for a BBEG, because no PC wants their character to be taken away from him.

Is there something I may have missed?

[Gorbash]

My post. Last on the first page.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok, everything else is more or less viable... But this? Bards now have access to lvl 8 Wizard spells? :smallconfused: Check the build again. Sublime Chord is a Bard PrC that grants access to up to 9th level Wiz/Sorc spells.



I'm playing a Batman wizard for quite some time now and when I do have the time to do the research I change... 3-4 spells I prepare, at the most (If I know we're facing a red Dragon, I'll prepare Mass Fire Shield and perhaps a few others, but why would I change other 20 spells, the encounter isn't gonna last that long anyway?). Out of 20+, because some spells are either mandatory or good in any given situation. So this:



Doesn't work either. Sure, I won't prepare Stinking Cloud if I see a bunch of undead and end up fighting... Babaus, but Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Slow, Flesh to Ice, Unluck, Zone of Peace, Web, Orbs work on virtually everything and these are spells which no sane Batman would ever want off his memorized spell list. And these are only spells up to lvl 5. I was thinking more along the lines of seeing a bunch of clerics/monks, so he prepares with a bunch of things like Enervation (which is just a damn handy spell regardless), only to find himself facing Wights... which are immune to... everything you just listed (well, 50% on the Orbs).


So, in reality, you'll manage to fool the Wizard to waste some of his spells, but even without those he'll be more than a match. God forbid he spends a couple of rounds buffing (under Greater/Superior Invisibility, of course) and you find yourself facing a polymorphed, stoneskinned, heroismed, hasted, dragonskinned, hearth of earthed, mirror imaged, fearsome grappled, mage armored, shielded, karmic aura'd Huge, with AC well into 30s, angry wizard. Once again these are only spells up to 5th lvl. It get's worse, since that Bard of yours is at least 13th lvl (lvl 5th bard spells), meaning lvl 7 wizard spells, which I'm sure are awful.

oh no... all those buffs! Oh wait... Mordicane's Disjunction! What buffs?

Hell, even a Greater Dispel Magic works just fine to strip buffs quickly. And I also notice you failed to mention anything which can bypass Illusions... bad mistake.

I think you're still missing the point, after it was in the OP, and several people have pointed it out to you.

The point of Joker is not to defeat Batman... it is to challenge him. To quote the movie: "I don't want to kill you. I wouldn't know what I would do without you!". No one is saying a well equipped Batman Wizard could defeat Joker Bard... if Bats could ever FIND him. The problem is Joker won't be there. He'll be somewhere else, watching with Prying Eyes, and laughing his arse off.

The point is... The Joker build I've made can make Batman blow more spells and waste more slots in poorly prepared slots than just about anything else. By the end of the day vs Joker plots, Batman Wizard is actually OUT of spells, instead of having three-quarters of his spells left.

[Gorbash]

oh no... all those buffs! Oh wait... Mordicane's Disjunction! What buffs?

Once again... Bards can't cast that! No Mind Blanks, no Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, those are Wizard spells!


And I also notice you failed to mention anything which can bypass Illusions... bad mistake.

True Seeing? How will your Bard see through Superior Invisibility?


I was thinking more along the lines of seeing a bunch of clerics/monks, so he prepares with a bunch of things like Enervation (which is just a damn handy spell regardless), only to find himself facing Wights... which are immune to... everything you just listed (well, 50% on the Orbs).

First of all, no Batman would ever do such a thing and spend all his 4th lvl slots on one spell. He'd just prepare chained, twinned, empowered version which takes up 1 slot of a higher lvl.

Second of all, meet Corpse Candle (a standard Batman spell, also). Now your Wights aren't incorporeal and entirely vulnerable to a polymorphed/shapechanged monstrosity. Not even buffs are nessessary, just cast Body of War and that one spell made a wizard immune to most stuff anyways.

Even if a wizard doesn't prepare that spell, he should have a scroll of it. Or Alacritous Cogitation feat.

[Voyager_I]

It's a nice idea, with the fundamental flaw that the Joker is only alive because Batman won't kill him. I don't think there are many PC's who share that compunction, and especially not of the "I'm a paranoid high-level wizard" variety. You might be able to trick him or force the player to use his own brains rather than just scrying, but he's still going to kill you the first time you meet.

Imagine how well the Joker would work as a villain if Batman carried an assault rifle and used it without hesitation. That's basically how the average group of PC's will handle it.

[Tingel]

Once again... Bards can't cast that! No Mind Blanks, no Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, those are Wizard spells!

Sublime Chord. Please read Shneekey's posts more attentively.

[Gorbash]

Oh come on, that's 19th lvl, it's jut a notch below Epic. With Gates and all that shananigans, that's not even a challenge.

And I thought you people were serious. :smallconfused:

[Tingel]

Nonetheless, your "Bards can't cast that!" exclamation was wrong. Sheekey explained the use of Sublime Chord in the very first post of this thread, and you should read closely what you attempt to dismantle.


As far as flavor is concerned I consider the Joker described herein excellent.

[Behold_the_Void]

Ok, everything else is more or less viable... But this? Bards now have access to lvl 8 Wizard spells? :smallconfused:



I'm playing a Batman wizard for quite some time now and when I do have the time to do the research I change... 3-4 spells I prepare, at the most (If I know we're facing a red Dragon, I'll prepare Mass Fire Shield and perhaps a few others, but why would I change other 20 spells, the encounter isn't gonna last that long anyway?). Out of 20+, because some spells are either mandatory or good in any given situation. So this:



Doesn't work either. Sure, I won't prepare Stinking Cloud if I see a bunch of undead and end up fighting... Babaus, but Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Slow, Flesh to Ice, Unluck, Zone of Peace, Web, Orbs work on virtually everything and these are spells which no sane Batman would ever want off his memorized spell list. And these are only spells up to lvl 5.

So, in reality, you'll manage to fool the Wizard to waste some of his spells, but even without those he'll be more than a match. God forbid he spends a couple of rounds buffing (under Greater/Superior Invisibility, of course) and you find yourself facing a polymorphed, stoneskinned, heroismed, hasted, dragonskinned, hearth of earthed, mirror imaged, fearsome grappled, mage armored, shielded, karmic aura'd Huge, with AC well into 30s, angry wizard. Once again these are only spells up to 5th lvl. It get's worse, since that Bard of yours is at least 13th lvl (lvl 5th bard spells), meaning lvl 7 wizard spells, which I'm sure are awful.

He's a Sublime Cord, so he has 9th level casting.

Edit: Ninja'd!


High Charisma + high social skills. I thought that the Bardic Music was (Ex), but upon further examination, I realize it's (SU) and (SP).

Bard is even better than Telepath outside of AMF due to Facinate/Suggestion from Bardic Music without even touching his spell list. Plus the spell Glibness is a +30 to Bluff check, and can bypass effects which sense falsehood or compel truth.

I fail to see what a Telepath has over the Bard for his chosen profession. Bards can Dominate and Charm just as well, and probably do it more times per day. They also are better at gathering information on the PC's.

Granted, the Telepath is probably better for in-combat 'will save or be my slave', but that's kind of rude for a BBEG, because no PC wants their character to be taken away from him.

Is there something I may have missed?

Outside an AMF plenty of options, yes, but don't necessarily rule out the telepath. I will say the Bard is subtler, which is definitely a point in their favor, but don't doubt the lasting power of a Telepath. You can get your PP up and if you have to, you can throw out the big guns more often than needed.

Not saying Bard is bad for this, it's not in the least, but I still think the Telepath is viable for another take on the archetype, probably more in the brutal mind-ripping vein.

[Gorbash]

Yeah, but that means that Wizard he's trying to challenge is also at least 17th lvl, and not subject to the worries of the mortal world.

[Frosty]

The problem is the party can'tbe scry'ed on either once level 15 rolls along, so Jokr can't make plan that well either. Also, if you want Joker to be smart, then use Beguiler instead of Bard.

[Epic_Wizard]

You guys are also forgetting scrolls and specifically the spell Anticipate Teleportation, Greater (Spell Compendium pg 13) which gives the Joker plenty of time to do fun things like move an acid bath under where they players are going to land and then leave himself. They pop into a jokerless room, if he's smart a Dimentional Lock comes into effect, and they players then have to find their way out of a trapped warehouse full of goons that they probably aren't prepared for in order to escape.

(also again this isn't meant to be unwinnable just annoying as **** to such a twinked out character)

Then again personally I prefer creative use of blaster Wizards (re. Lightning Bolt the roof, Disintegrate the ground under the guy with spell resistance, and Summon an earth elemental in the ceiling to drop on the enemy)

[TempusCCK]

The idea here isn't to Scry on the Batman or his party, it's a tool for DM's to manipulate Batman characters by kidnapping important NPC's, threatening important infrastructure or items, and so on and so forth. THe point is not that Batman can't be scryed on, Joker doesn't care, the point is that Joker can't be scryed on, and therefore, cannot be predicted. Which throws Batmans main power for a loop.

Not to mention, with Sublime Chord, Joker has access to all kinds of fun little things like Dimensional Anchor and the high level spells, not to mention probably a seriously high UMD check.

Yes, Batman can kill the Joker, but this Joker knows that this Batman will kill him, and will act accordingly by not being around when things go down, he acts through proxy and doesn't give a rats hindquarters what happens to those proxies after they act.

[Thurbane]

The problem is the party can'tbe scry'ed on either once level 15 rolls along, so Jokr can't make plan that well either. Also, if you want Joker to be smart, then use Beguiler instead of Bard.
Yes, I was also wondering if Beguiler might be a better (or equally good) base for this Joker build?

[BardicDuelist]

One could probably stat out a pretty solid "Rogue's Gallery" with good analogies.

Beguiler and Telepath are good options. Factotum (possibly Factotum/Chameleon) could probably work. There are a couple of ToB options that should be explored, and CoDzilla's could find a way to be a challenge too. Yes, you need at least partial casters (or UMD) to be a decent threat to high level parties, but these types of characters could do it.

[hewhosaysfish]

One could probably stat out a pretty solid "Rogue's Gallery" with good analogies.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
We've already had "the Batman Wizard" and "does that makes Sorcerors Robin" and "should Superman be a Paladin" and no doubt several others I've forgotten.

What we need is a new meme! Every time you use a superhero analogy to describe a DnD class, God kills Catwoman. Won't someone, please, think of Catwoman!

[Aquillion]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
We've already had "the Batman Wizard" and "does that makes Sorcerors Robin" and "should Superman be a Paladin" and no doubt several others I've forgotten.

What we need is a new meme! Every time you use a superhero analogy to describe a DnD class, God kills Catwoman. Won't someone, please, think of Catwoman!Someone needs to post a guide to Being Aquaman, focused on making and playing a character that is effective underwater and nowhere else.

[skeeter_dan]

Even if he weren't actively engaged already, a high-level wizard is pretty darn legendary. Which makes him - and by extension things that he cares about - subject to a Bardic Knowledge check.

Consider it for a moment. Joker always knows which buttons to push to get on Batman's nerves. How does he know? Not from smarts or research. A Bardic Knowledge check would be a pretty good mechanical stand-in for the kind of lunatic intuition that the Joker seems to have.
I like this a lot.



Does the Joker ever kidnap someone assuming Batman isn't going to show up?
And this I like even more. Of course he knows the Batman Wizard will scry on whomever he's kidnapped. That's why, when the Batman Wizard teleports in, he'll set off numerous overly-complicated death traps and mindbending illusions. The Joker Bard? He's not even necessarily there: he's set up a Magic Mouth or similar to taunt the Batman Wizard, laughing maniacally as the Batman Wizard, in attempting to save the kidnappee, sets off the very death trap that kills the kidnappee.

All in all, I really like this idea for a BBEG.

[TempusCCK]

Mm, just the concept makes me laugh.

Cheese v. Cheese: Diplomancer v. Meta-magic reducing, broken spell slinging wizard. Not that the Joker necessarily needs to be a Diplomancer, just that he could and it would be hilarious.

[Learnedguy]

I like this idea. I've always thought that the one place it hurts to be hit for for the Batman is, like for all other nerds, socially, and this Joker does that very thing.

How does he work in earlier levels though? What kind of items should one choose?

[Sholos]

I just like the fact that the only way someone has come up with for this to "not be a challenge" is to use a wizard build so full of cheese that almost any DM would ban it immediately.

[TempusCCK]

even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.

[Epic_Wizard]

even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.

This is one of those things that defeats the purpose of D&D. At this point you may as well have a miniature of your character on a shelf and that's it.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I didn't get time to say this before the last thread got the lock, but I really like the idea. It's very do-able and has great flavor.

[D_Lord]

Yeah, but that means that Wizard he's trying to challenge is also at least 17th lvl, and not subject to the worries of the mortal world.

Which is why you get reasons for him to be worryed about this. And lot of the time, the partys don't shield them selfs from scyring that much. But then again this is an anti-Batman BBEG. It's meant to give the powergamer player a hard time, possibly as payback for the DM having to wait hours for the player to choose his spells for the day.

[Aquillion]

I just like the fact that the only way someone has come up with for this to "not be a challenge" is to use a wizard build so full of cheese that almost any DM would ban it immediately.To be fair, this build is already abusing both 9th level casting and Diplomacy, two of the most broken things in the game -- they're not abusing 9th level casting to quite the degree that, say, Cindy is, but it's not like this was ever a cheese-free battle to begin with.

[Kurald Galain]

To be fair, this build is already abusing both 9th level casting and Diplomacy, two of the most broken things in the game -- they're not abusing 9th level casting to quite the degree that, say, Cindy is, but it's not like this was ever a cheese-free battle to begin with.
In other words, the way to defeat a high-level arcane caster is by taking another high-level arcane caster :smallbiggrin:

[Gorbash]

So Joker doesn't really have to be a Bard at all, since he's using a bard prestige class in order to get what Wizards are getting. Why just not make a Wizard and call him Joker? He certainly won't be using diplomacy against NPCs, it can't be used against PCs, so there's really no point in him being a Bard. Other than proving that some other class can challenge/defeat a wizard. By using Wizard's spells.

[its_all_ogre]

even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.

if one of my players ever created a character like this i'd let them.
then let them spectate on the game, after all their character doesn't care about anything, next session maybe they'll have a rational character made ready?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So Joker doesn't really have to be a Bard at all, since he's using a bard prestige class in order to get what Wizards are getting. Why just not make a Wizard and call him Joker? He certainly won't be using diplomacy against NPCs, it can't be used against PCs, so there's really no point in him being a Bard. Other than proving that some other class can challenge/defeat a wizard. By using Wizard's spells.Sorcerer's spells.

Yes, there is a difference.

And Ogre, I actually would have a lot of fun with a character who truly doesn't care about anything, and is only going along with the party because he's vaguely interested. Maybe an Artificer, who fluffs the "Hormunculus-in-a-hole" as a portal back to his rich family, who toss out gear for him on occasion. That rational enough?:smalltongue:

[Aquillion]

So Joker doesn't really have to be a Bard at all, since he's using a bard prestige class in order to get what Wizards are getting. Why just not make a Wizard and call him Joker? He certainly won't be using diplomacy against NPCs, it can't be used against PCs, so there's really no point in him being a Bard. Other than proving that some other class can challenge/defeat a wizard. By using Wizard's spells.My understanding is that we're talking primarily about using this guy as an NPC himself. So, no, while he won't explicitly use diplomacy much (the only time it makes sense to even roll for NPCs using diplomacy for an NPC is when they use it when the players are right there, or in some sort of opposed check related directly to responding to the PCs actions), it will factor majorly into the plot.

And Diplomacy is a major threat, even to a Tippy wizard. In fact, it's one of the few non-magical things that is (although, granted, only because it can call down magical threats.) One of the basic rules of most settings is that no matter how powerful you are, there's always going to be someone bigger. All the Joker has to do is find those bigger people and make a good enough diplomacy check to make Batman out to be the bad guy, or to put Batman in a tight spot.

Basically, the Joker's high diplomacy checks will be used to set up encounters capable of challenging Batman, while ensuring that his main opponent is still someone he can defeat.

(Yes, you could just throw those high-level threats at Batman directly, but that's not as interesting as having them tricked and manipulated by the Joker.)

Also, of course, he can still try and Bluff Batman... although that never works in the comics, PCs are not immune to bluff.

Of course, there is one major problem with this build: The comic-book joker only gets that many chances to use Diplomacy and Bluff because Batman refuses to kill him. Unless you can give your PC wizard a reason to react the same way, he isn't likely to last nearly so long -- assuming the PCs even turn him over to the authorities instead of killing him once, they're never going to do it again after he talks his way out the first time. After that, it'll be on-the-spot execution every time. And they're probably not going to stand around long enough to listen to his bluffs, either.

[Kurald Galain]

One of the basic rules of most settings is that no matter how powerful you are, there's always going to be someone bigger. All the Joker has to do is find those bigger people and make a good enough diplomacy check to make Batman out to be the bad guy, or to put Batman in a tight spot.

I cast Summon Bigger Fish.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Joker is designed to be the GM's answer to the Batman Optimized Wizard.

To this extend, he can be as little, or as much, optimized as is necessary to challenge the party.

Do you have a Batman wizard abusing Titan Gate Chains? With a Candle of Invocation, the Joker Bard can do exactly the same thing. And we all know just how moral Joker is, he could get one just by knocking over any old temple who happens to have one.

GM: Okay, you summon your titan chain. So do I. Titan chain negates titan chain. Now let's play nice, shall we?

Basically, this is the personification of the threat "If you abuse it, expect it to be abused against you in the near future". You want to abuse a Hulking Hurler? Fine, Joker goes out and hires/bribes/diplomances one to work for him. You want to abuse Titan Chains? Fine, Joker can too. You want to go all Tippy on him? Fine, he can go there too (although not as potently, as he does not have an ability to metamagic the stuffings out of his magic, however he doesn't really need to, just negate the advantages of the metamagic).

In short, this is designed to be the stick the GM uses to beat Optimizers at their own game with.

Got a group of Powergamers and Optimizers who Just Don't Care? Joker Diplomances a LG church of Heironous and convinces them that the PC's are the most dangerous threat on the planet... because they just don't care. They'll do anything, commit any atrocity, just to further their own goals.

Now they've got one of the largest religious groups actively hunting them down, with High Priests easily capable of doing their own Gate shennagians if the PC's start it up.

Best way out of it? Prove Joker was wrong. Start caring and giving a damn. Actively participate in the game. Then better plot hooks become available to use. However, if they're going to be pricks... well... them's as who gives... gets.

If the PC's won't come to Plot... then Plot comes to the PC's.

[Pronounceable]

All this and still no mention of "Joker's Hideous Laughter"? C'mon, it begs to be homebrewed.

Joker's Hideous Laughter
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 6
Components: S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. Each round on its turn, it takes 2d6 subdual damage unless it makes a DC 20 Will save to stop laughing as a full round action. If at any time subject is reduced to unconsciousness, it dies instead.

After the spell ends, it can act normally assuming it survived.

Only humanoid creatures with 3 or higher intelligence are affected.

Material Component
A specially made green colored gas released from a vial towards the target.


Now it's not perfect, slapped together within a few minutes. But if someone doesn't come up with something better, it's serviceable.
...

Then there may or may not be Harley. If there is, I envision her as a bruiser, especially as a barby who flies into a homicidal rage when Mistah J is threatened. Add as much cheese as desired and we may get ourselves a lean, mean, potential killing machine.

[BillyJimBoBob]

even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.

I agree. My original reply where I suggested that the Wizard simply not caring was the largest weakness in the Joker being able to be any kind of a foil to the Wizard was based on many responses from others in "Wizards are the roXorz!" threads, and was meant to be tongue in cheek. I can kinda get my head around the Schrodinger's spell lists, but when the arguments in favor of Wizard ultimate supremacy devolve into things like "Well, the Wizard obviously wouldn't go there or do that, because he just doesn't care about anything or anyone other than himself" it starts looking a little desperate.

[quick_comment]

If I were GM, I would have the joker hire the players.

Hire them to steal a stolen artifact stolen by the Church of Vecna Pelor. Of course, the Vecnese priests are disguised as clerics of Pelor. An extra sack of gold for killing them all.

Then he would tell the headquarters of the Paladins of Pelor/Rainbow servants etc, to be scrying on this particular Church.


Now the players are all marked for death, the Joker has some powerful artifact, and any paladins in the party have fallen. Maybe some clerics too. I dont think a Cleric of Pelor could get away with slaughtering a bunch of fellows.



The joker also needs undetectable alignment.

[Yukitsu]

So, to beat a wizard, you need to basically make a sorcerer. Because this isn't a bard. Sublime chords are just sorcerers with the PrC abilities tacked onto the wierd end, but everything you mention can be done with a sorcerer, and better done with a wizard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, to beat a wizard, you need to basically make a sorcerer. Because this isn't a bard. Sublime chords are just sorcerers with the PrC abilities tacked onto the wierd end, but everything you mention can be done with a sorcerer, and better done with a wizard.

Close...

Read the OP again.

His biggest and best methods of operating is using social skills, blufing his way out of anything.

The wiz/sorc spells from Sublime Chord are only used insofar as to negate Batman Wizard Optimization being one big 'I Win' button. If you don't have a PC doing a Batman Wizard, he can be toned down to straight Bard (or maybe Bard/Fatespinner if you like) and work perfectly well.

The only reason why he has Sublime Chord is because it's the only way to challenge a Batman Wizard.

And again, I would like to point out that the point of Joker is not to 'beat' a Batman Wizard, but simply challenge him and make him expend more effort than two spells + Pre-Buffing.

Batman Wizard has I Win buttons all over the place. He can eliminate any threat, no matter how nasty, simply because he has that much power.

Joker is designed to challenge that build, by negating many of his I Win buttons, and negating and/or countering many of a traditional Batman Wizard's tactics.

Again, he's not supposed to WIN. He's supposed to be defeated... then after that, the Batman Wizard goes... "Wow... I'm out of spells... low on usable resources... but damn that was fun". That's what Joker is supposed to do. Not to beat Batman Wizard... but to give him a run for his money, and make him earn his victory.

[Tyrmatt]

Joker's Hideous Laughter


I love it so much.

The "Joker" concept I came up that followed a different pattern, as I had a BBEG already set up. He was also a bard and loved to use his bluff/perform skills to manipulate others into attacking the PC's or to illusion up things to cause chaos. He served as the Dragon to my BBEG (who loved to use the "Joker" to keep attention off him. For ages, the players never even knew the two were in league) and until the party were seriously mid-high level they never actually managed to engage him in physical combat. Even then, he was never actually killed by the party. They had him apparently down to 0 and were being engaged by the Lich BBEG. When they drove him off, the body had vanished...

The fact that I also roleplayed him as a manic, rhyme talking madman with no regard for life also annoyed the hell out of my group. It gave me a chance to actively taunt them for their failures "in character" and that led to some real antagonism as each player blamed the other.

Love the idea, love the plan to bring down the wizard.
Continue...

[Yukitsu]

Close...

Read the OP again.

His biggest and best methods of operating is using social skills, blufing his way out of anything.

The wiz/sorc spells from Sublime Chord are only used insofar as to negate Batman Wizard Optimization being one big 'I Win' button. If you don't have a PC doing a Batman Wizard, he can be toned down to straight Bard (or maybe Bard/Fatespinner if you like) and work perfectly well.

The only reason why he has Sublime Chord is because it's the only way to challenge a Batman Wizard.

You do realize that those social skills are doable with certain builds that use wizard or sorcerer and are both superior casters to this, right? Social builds as either of those full casters is very much viable. Also, you do need the sublime chord for reasons you didn't mention. Finding their family and people they care about. While my characters have those, I don't run about saying "I'm the child of blah and blah, and they live at this adress." You need to use divinations that are of a higher level than what a bard can get to find the solutions to those questions. You need the full caster levels to stand a chance when inevitably cornered, and since contact plane, legend lore and proper divination all ignore defenses set against them, mostly because the target isn't you, he'll actually find you within the day, or at least, a few days. (Or the cleric will.) Since ressurection magic exists, threatening a likely rich adventurer is a hollow threat at best.

But in either even, you are essentially just making a social sorcerer and calling it something other than a full caster to challenge the wizard. That's pretty much what caster duels are. Full casters of course challenge a full caster.

[Kurald Galain]

Do you have a Batman wizard abusing Titan Gate Chains? With a Candle of Invocation, the Joker Bard can do exactly the same thing. And we all know just how moral Joker is, he could get one just by knocking over any old temple who happens to have one.
My preferred way of dealing with such abuse would be to disallow the players from using certain spells or items - not to go into an arms race to reach a Minmexican Standoff.

Look. You're the DM. You've got Rule Zero on your side. If powerplayers bother you, don't deal with them by trying to beat them at their game, deal with them by making them play yours.

[Telonius]

You do realize that those social skills are doable with certain builds that use wizard or sorcerer and are both superior casters to this, right? Social builds as either of those full casters is very much viable. Also, you do need the sublime chord for reasons you didn't mention. Finding their family and people they care about. While my characters have those, I don't run about saying "I'm the child of blah and blah, and they live at this adress." You need to use divinations that are of a higher level than what a bard can get to find the solutions to those questions. You need the full caster levels to stand a chance when inevitably cornered, and since contact plane, legend lore and proper divination all ignore defenses set against them, mostly because the target isn't you, he'll actually find you within the day, or at least, a few days. (Or the cleric will.) Since ressurection magic exists, threatening a likely rich adventurer is a hollow threat at best.

But in either even, you are essentially just making a social sorcerer and calling it something other than a full caster to challenge the wizard. That's pretty much what caster duels are. Full casters of course challenge a full caster.

Some other differences: Six skill points per level (instead of two for the Sorc), a skillmonkey's list of class skills (instead of six for the Sorc), casting in light armor with no penalty, no XP time bomb familiar (though variants can let your wizard trade the familiar for something useful).

[Yukitsu]

Some other differences: Six skill points per level (instead of two for the Sorc), a skillmonkey's list of class skills (instead of six for the Sorc), casting in light armor with no penalty, no XP time bomb familiar (though variants can let your wizard trade the familiar for something useful).

At the level he's discussing, class skills and skill points are largely unnecessary, because moment of prescience is capable of consistantly hitting the top end DC of most skills you could possibly want to succeed in, and they have the top end of a class ability that doesn't max out (bluff) as a class ability already. Also, most people don't worry about light armour proficiency, simply because armour is all or nothing. Either you focus on it, and spend your cash, feats and stats in getting enough to hit 43 by level 20, or you forget about it, because 25 doesn't stop anything. I'd rather have superior PrC options than any of those.

[Eclipse]

My preferred way of dealing with such abuse would be to disallow the players from using certain spells or items - not to go into an arms race to reach a Minmexican Standoff.

Look. You're the DM. You've got Rule Zero on your side. If powerplayers bother you, don't deal with them by trying to beat them at their game, deal with them by making them play yours.

This is certainly valid, but as the GM, sometimes it's fun to just go toe to toe with the players and find a workable challenge.

[Behold_the_Void]

At the level he's discussing, class skills and skill points are largely unnecessary, because moment of prescience is capable of consistantly hitting the top end DC of most skills you could possibly want to succeed in, and they have the top end of a class ability that doesn't max out (bluff) as a class ability already. Also, most people don't worry about light armour proficiency, simply because armour is all or nothing. Either you focus on it, and spend your cash, feats and stats in getting enough to hit 43 by level 20, or you forget about it, because 25 doesn't stop anything. I'd rather have superior PrC options than any of those.

Moment of Prescience is an 8th level spell. The kind of social networking the Joker does would need way more castings of it than you can get.

[Telonius]

With Diplomacy, skill points will matter, even at high level. At level 20, if a Sorcerer maxes out Diplomacy, it will be 11 (ranks)+20 (Moment of Prescience) + Charisma modifier (let's say +8?) -10 (in-combat) for a total of 29 + die roll. It's impossible to turn a hostile into a helpful unless you have other modifiers.

With a Bard, that 11 would turn into 23, for a total of 41 + die roll. You have to roll a 9 to turn a hostile into a helpful, not counting other modifiers.

[Yukitsu]

Moment of Prescience is an 8th level spell. The kind of social networking the Joker does would need way more castings of it than you can get.

He can get all his mooks and most contacts on charisma bonus alone, and can get any harder to get stuff due to actual ranks in bluff. Social networking DCs are actually fairly low under normal circumstances.

[Yukitsu]

With Diplomacy, skill points will matter, even at high level. At level 20, if a Sorcerer maxes out Diplomacy, it will be 11 (ranks)+20 (Moment of Prescience) + Charisma modifier (let's say +8?) -10 (in-combat) for a total of 29 + die roll. It's impossible to turn a hostile into a helpful unless you have other modifiers.

With a Bard, that 11 would turn into 23, for a total of 41 + die roll. You have to roll a 9 to turn a hostile into a helpful, not counting other modifiers.

His strategy doesn't use diplomacy, partly because adjudicating diplomacy on NPCs by NPCs is mostly fiat anyway. For instance, you can start all NPCs as indifferent without any real issues.

[Telonius]

Several other skills are also useful even in those upper reaches. Disguise, for instance. A mundane disguise is undetectable by magical means, and opposed by a Spot check (which can vary by level). It's on the Bard's list, but not on the Sorcerer's. Hide is also opposed by a Spot check - Bard has it, Sorcerer doesn't.

Though for extra cheese, there's no reason you can't just take one (or two)levels of Sublime Chord, then another PrC that advances a spellcasting class. Just specify that the class you're advancing is Sublime Chord.

[Yukitsu]

Several other skills are also useful even in those upper reaches. Disguise, for instance. A mundane disguise is undetectable by magical means, and opposed by a Spot check (which can vary by level). It's on the Bard's list, but not on the Sorcerer's. Hide is also opposed by a Spot check - Bard has it, Sorcerer doesn't.

Neither of these are all that necessary, however, nor representative of the joker.


Though for extra cheese, there's no reason you can't just take one (or two)levels of Sublime Chord, then another PrC that advances a spellcasting class. Just specify that the class you're advancing is Sublime Chord.

That's still 7 levels of prestige that the bard lacks that the sorcerer or wizard doesn't.

[shadowdemon_lord]

If your sorceror joker spends a lot of his high level spell slots creating his social networking devices, laying his own traps, etc. then what is he gonna do when the Batman wizard eventually catches him at the scene of the crime? If your burning 8th level slots to convince someone of something, your not using those 8th level slots to blow the building up, capture the hostage, set up traps for batman, defend yourself from him, or anything else. This is still Batman your dealing with here, he has more resources then you. When he comes a knocking you'd better have as many tricks up your sleeve as possible. The sorceror is both worse then the bard at diplomacy, he's also less efficient.

The bard can walk into the middle of a crowded room and use his bardic powers to make suggestions without ever casting a spell, something neither the sorceror or telepath can claim. Among other things this can mean that if he is successful no one has any way of figuring out what he's up to. The sorceror needs to have silent spell, still spell, and eschew materials to pull off the same feat. Sorcerors hurt for feats.

Also, your right most of the time it's not hard to build a circle of friends. However it is difficult to convince Harvey Dent to go and undo all the hard work he's done, sentence the city he's been charged with protecting to mafia rule, and even murder people he's been working closely with. And base the entire revenge scheme on something that is ultimately the Jokers fault. This is the kind of thing that Joker should be able to pull off, regardless of Harvey's will save.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Neither of these are all that necessary, however, nor representative of the joker. I entirely disagree. Joker uses disguises frequently in his nefarious plans, Diplomacy is just non-hostile convincing of people without blatantly lying (i.e. bluff). Joker does this surprisingly well.




That's still 7 levels of prestige that the bard lacks that the sorcerer or wizard doesn't.

Again, this is a BBEG that can do everything the GM needs to do. Furthermore, it has the flavor necessary to emulate the Joker perfectly.

Most of what he does is non-magical. Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Disguise... all things that, being non-magical, cannot be defeated by magical means.

Also, there's one spell that is NOT in the Wiz/Sorc list that Joker will likely use more than anything else... Glibness. Beating Detect Lies and Compel Truth is vital for this character.

And, for the umpteenth time, I'm not trying to BEAT a Batman Wizard... I'm trying to make a CHALLENGE that he can't just 'I Win' past. Particularly, I'm not interested in an 'arms race'. Yes, he could do magic more effectively as a pure Sorc. I don't care. He has enough spellcasting for the purposes of the challenge. He's not supposed to be slinging spells at the PC's very often. He's supposed to be beaten in a straight-up fair fight. That's why he goes to such pains to keep any encounter with him from being anything remotely resembling a fair fight.

If I just wanted to, I could have thrown the 'evil twin', using the Batman Wizard's character sheet, cloned, which can, by default, do everything the Batman Wizard can do. That's easy.

No, I want to build a character who evokes fear just because he's that freekin' scary. Not scary as in overpowered, but scary as 'This guy is flippin' CRAZY'. I wanted to build an NPC BBEG who can logically do most of the things he does without resorting to magic.

If there was a PrC he could get into that let him bypass scrying, alignment and truth detection, and advanced Bard casting, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Hell, that would be better than Sublime Chord for my purposes. Really, the only reason why I went Sublime Chord was for Contingency, because Joker *ALWAYS* had an escape route Batman didn't plan for. If I could get a method of getting Contingency as a spell-like ability, or some other method of setting up escape routes that he doesn't have to activate to go into effect, that would obviate any need for Sublime Chord.

[Yukitsu]

That's just the thing, however. He doesn't provide any challenge unless he acts more like a full caster than a bard, and his build reflects that. Social network and mooks is what he has that a sorcerer and wizard can't easily do (unless built to that end) and capturing and threatening people he likes can equivalently be done by the right kind of wizard, or any sorcerer. And despite all that, the problem is that he will be forced to fight within the first 2 days because he can't avoid being found in those 2 days.

If you seriously want to represent the joker as someone doing things in a mundane manner, try doing it through classes that don't have ninth level spells, and won't come to rely on a plethora of spells when you try putting this into practice. A rogue forsaker is probably much more capable at representing that than a bard, who will ultimately rely heavily on magic every step of the way.

Lastly, you shouldn't need magic contingencies. The joker does it through being a clever jerk that acts unpredictably. His contingencies should be methodological, never a cure all spell.

[Calemyr]

This reminds me of a BBEG I've been playing with in case I ever DM a campaign: a changeling Bard. Very similar to the Joker in that his specialty would be taking the form of would-be pawns and using a combination of warped logic and persuasion to convince them that he was actually them and that they were the BBEG. In other words, every group the party finds themselves in conflict with is led by someone who honestly believes that they themselves are the mastermind. All the while the Bard is watching on, sometimes even in plain sight as timid guardsman #3 or the BBEG's well-meaning-but-misled girlfriend. It'd be like one big "I am Spartacus" scene for the villain!

The Bard wouldn't have the brute strength or awesome arcane power to overcome every conflict, but he wouldn't need it. Instead, he simply mindscrews people into doing his bidding without ever showing his face. Fighting him would be like punching fog because you're never sure if you caught the real one this time.

There are two feats that make this as dangerous as it could be. One allows a bard to cast magic as part of a perform check (and he'd have oratory or acting as perform skills). The other one is a changeling specific feat that lets them create a temporary persona for their assumed form - which means that detect thoughts/alignment/lies would be ineffective against him when he's in character. (To make things even more amusing, make his one of his alter-egos one of the party... My Own Worst Enemy, DND Style.)

How does that sound for a first attempt?

[Yukitsu]

Snip

I like this way far, far more than the other way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's just the thing, however. He doesn't provide any challenge unless he acts more like a full caster than a bard, and his build reflects that. Social network and mooks is what he has that a sorcerer and wizard can't easily do (unless built to that end) and capturing and threatening people he likes can equivalently be done by the right kind of wizard, or any sorcerer. And despite all that, the problem is that he will be forced to fight within the first 2 days because he can't avoid being found in those 2 days.And just how are you supposed to find him?


If you seriously want to represent the joker as someone doing things in a mundane manner, try doing it through classes that don't have ninth level spells, and won't come to rely on a plethora of spells when you try putting this into practice. A rogue forsaker is probably much more capable at representing that than a bard, who will ultimately rely heavily on magic every step of the way. And the rogue forsaker can be scried, found, located, and eliminated extremely quickly. Joker's immunity to scrying is one of the things he does to negate much of the Batman Wizard's arsenal.


Lastly, you shouldn't need magic contingencies. The joker does it through being a clever jerk that acts unpredictably. His contingencies should be methodological, never a cure all spell.

The problem I'm trying to circumvent is "Batman Wizard blows him away with x combo"... the counter to which is "Contingency upon Batman Wizard targeting Joker, activating Celerity which Joker uses to DimDoor out of there.


This reminds me of a BBEG I've been playing with in case I ever DM a campaign: a changeling Bard. Very similar to the Joker in that his specialty would be taking the form of would-be pawns and using a combination of warped logic and persuasion to convince them that he was actually them and that they were the BBEG. In other words, every group the party finds themselves in conflict with is led by someone who honestly believes that they themselves are the mastermind. All the while the Bard is watching on, sometimes even in plain sight as timid guardsman #3 or the BBEG's well-meaning-but-misled girlfriend. It'd be like one big "I am Spartacus" scene for the villain!

The Bard wouldn't have the brute strength or awesome arcane power to overcome every conflict, but he wouldn't need it. Instead, he simply mindscrews people into doing his bidding without ever showing his face. Fighting him would be like punching fog because you're never sure if you caught the real one this time.

There are two feats that make this as dangerous as it could be. One allows a bard to cast magic as part of a perform check (and he'd have oratory or acting as perform skills). The other one is a changeling specific feat that lets them create a temporary persona for their assumed form - which means that detect thoughts/alignment/lies would be ineffective against him when he's in character. (To make things even more amusing, make his one of his alter-egos one of the party... My Own Worst Enemy, DND Style.)

Hmm... this sounds exactly like what I'm trying to go for. Which feat is the changling specific feat that lets them create temporary persona for their assumed form? This might negate the requirement for being a Sublime Chord to challenge a Batman Wizard with.

[Calemyr]

The feat is called "Persona Immersion" and it's on page 110 of "Races of Eberron". What it more or less amounts to is that every time you succeed on a save against any telepathic or divination effect, you get to provide whatever false reading you'd like. The only requirement is that you must be a changeling to use it.

You could make that even more useful with Force of Personality (Complete Adventurer), which lets you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will Saves. An astronomical Charisma would then make you an effective juggernaut in the mind game department.

As an added bonus you could also take the warshaper prestige class, which would make you unsettlingly tough when in an assumed form (read: always).

[Kurald Galain]

And the rogue forsaker can be scried, found, located, and eliminated extremely quickly. Joker's immunity to scrying is one of the things he does to negate much of the Batman Wizard's arsenal.
Well, the thing is that if we don't assume Batman is level 17 (near-epic already), but instead, say, 10 or so, then that makes it much less of a problem.

D&D wasn't made for arms races. That's what Paranoia and Exalted are for.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The feat is called "Persona Immersion" and it's on page 110 of "Races of Eberron". What it more or less amounts to is that every time you succeed on a save against any telepathic or divination effect, you get to provide whatever false reading you'd like. The only requirement is that you must be a changeling to use it.

You could make that even more useful with Force of Personality (Complete Adventurer), which lets you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will Saves. An astronomical Charisma would then make you an effective juggernaut in the mind game department.

As an added bonus you could also take the warshaper prestige class, which would make you unsettlingly tough when in an assumed form (read: always).

Warshaper isn't where I'm wanting to go with this. Here's my problem, I want to make someone immune to scrying, otherwise Discern Location will pick him up. So Batman Wizard can lock him up, and take him out.

Furthermore, this presupposes you'll actually make your save. Batman Wizard has a number of ways to make the DC's for his saves simply astronomical.

I like the idea of faking things, that's really part of his character. But if he blows a save, the party is going to find him and stomp him, and I'd rather not let it get that chancy.

I do think I'll include it, just because it's so much fun and so like the joker, but more of a 'how he watches the party' more than 'standard modus operendi'. He'll be using it in his early days, before he can get access to Mind Blank, which is just about the same time Batman Wizard gets Discern Location. Assuming Batman Wizard doesn't cheat and use Circle Magic or CoOperative Magic to boost scry DC's into the 100's, you should be able to fend him off at this point.


Well, the thing is that if we don't assume Batman is level 17 (near-epic already), but instead, say, 10 or so, then that makes it much less of a problem. Scrying is a 4th level spell. That means he can have it by level 7. At that point, either you have some method of bypassing scrying, or you're screwed vs a Batman Wizard.

[Calemyr]

Scrying is a divination spell with a will save, which triggers Persona Immersion. Let the Batman scry on him all he likes, the Joker is never there when things go down and he is perfectly "normal" when the scry hits him. The scry might find a little girl named Susan (Joker in disguise).

The key thing is that the Batman has to know who this Joker is. Yeah, he can power his DCs up to the stars, but if you don't have a reason to suspect random spectator #5, odds are they won't have the resources to go after everyone. I'm serious about punching fog. They don't know who it is, don't know what it looks like, they don't even know its name or even its gender or race. They just know that it fries minds like nobodies business and uses people to do its bidding.

I'd point out that for every point of INT the Batman can muster, the Joker can muster just as much CHA, which would do double duty with Force of Personality. Combine the fact that Disguise Spell makes spells unidentifiable and you can have some real fun in a battle of wits. Combine it with Subsonics and you can use your music abilities without even making identifiable sounds, which can screw people up even more without ever exposing yourself. (Both of these feats are in Complete Adventurer)

The warshaper kinda depends on what kind of Joker you're thinking of. There's something whimsical about someone who can make natural weapons at will and make his limbs stretch five feet more than they rightly should, have high strength and constitution, immunity to crits, and fast healing 2.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Scrying is a divination spell with a will save, which triggers Persona Immersion. Let the Batman scry on him all he likes, the Joker is never there when things go down and he is perfectly "normal" when the scry hits him. The scry might find a little girl named Susan (Joker in disguise).

The key thing is that the Batman has to know who this Joker is. Yeah, he can power his DCs up to the stars, but if you don't have a reason to suspect random spectator #5, odds are they won't have the resources to go after everyone. I'm serious about punching fog. They don't know who it is, don't know what it looks like, they don't even know its name or even its gender or race. They just know that it fries minds like nobodies business and uses people to do its bidding.

I'd point out that for every point of INT the Batman can muster, the Joker can muster just as much CHA, which would do double duty with Force of Personality. Combine the fact that Disguise Spell makes spells unidentifiable and you can have some real fun in a battle of wits. Combine it with Subsonics and you can use your music abilities without even making identifiable sounds, which can screw people up even more without ever exposing yourself. (Both of these feats are in Complete Adventurer)One small problem: True Sight will still register Joker as a Changling instead of whatever race he's impersonating. Since the Changling ability is a Polymorph effect, True Sight negates it. Granted, with Disguise, you can still not look like who you really are, however if Batman Wizard sees one Changeling in a whole group of something-elses... guess what their first response is going to be?
Furthermore, when Batman Wizard hits 15, he gets Discern Location which as no save. At that point, Joker had damn well better have a trick up his sleeve to be immune to scrying, or he's dead meat.


The warshaper kinda depends on what kind of Joker you're thinking of. There's something whimsical about someone who can make natural weapons at will and make his limbs stretch five feet more than they rightly should, have high strength and constitution, immunity to crits, and fast healing 2.

Yea, that's really not the direction I'm wanting to go. Not to mention that Warshaper doesn't have any of the social skills necessary to keep up to par. I see what you mean, it can be very nasty with a Changeling, but that's not the kind of nasty I want Joker to be.

OP changed to reflect your contribution to the Joker BBEG Project. Thank you for finding a way around being dependent on high-level Wiz/Sorc spells.

EDIT: Big problem. On page 110 of Races of Eberron, it clearly states it can only fool Divination spells up to 3rd level, which means it cannot fool Scry. The Rogue sub-level may be good enough to take a dip in to be able to take 10 on most social skills

[Yukitsu]

And just how are you supposed to find him?

Legend lore, contact plane with question of "where will he strike next". Combination thereof completely ignores his defenses, and frankly any abjuration of illusion against divinations, because the target is the caster, not the person you want info on.


And the rogue forsaker can be scried, found, located, and eliminated extremely quickly. Joker's immunity to scrying is one of the things he does to negate much of the Batman Wizard's arsenal.

They aren't that easy to scry. One thing a forsaker is expected to carry is a big ol wad of flux slime, which makes them immune to magic. It's a fungus of anti magic field.


The problem I'm trying to circumvent is "Batman Wizard blows him away with x combo"... the counter to which is "Contingency upon Batman Wizard targeting Joker, activating Celerity which Joker uses to DimDoor out of there.

Batman does blow the joker away in almost all instances of combat using x combo. The joker escapes because the batman doesn't kill the joker, not because the joker actually can escape.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Legend lore, contact plane with question of "where will he strike next". Combination thereof completely ignores his defenses, and frankly any abjuration of illusion against divinations, because the target is the caster, not the person you want info on. Incorrect. Mind Blank blocks Legend Lore. Contact Plane can only answer 'Yes' or 'No'. It'd take a LOT of playing 20 questions to get anything remotely reliable out of it. And I have no clue what you mean by an 'abjuration of illusion against divinations', because you just contradicted yourself three times by my count.


They aren't that easy to scry. One thing a forsaker is expected to carry is a big ol wad of flux slime, which makes them immune to magic. It's a fungus of anti magic field. Nah, I'll just stick to being able to diplomance everyone and everything. Plus the Forsaker's abilities don't kick in unless they destroy magic items. If they can't get near a magic item without it becoming not-magic, it severely nerfs the heck out of the class.


Batman does blow the joker away in almost all instances of combat using x combo. The joker escapes because the batman doesn't kill the joker, not because the joker actually can escape.
Which version have you been watching? Old-school Batman tried to kill the Joker umpteen times... just that every time he actually nailed the bastard, it was just a robot. That was what the joke at the end of the '80's movie was about. No, the Joker escapes because the Joker always has an escape route that Batman didn't plan on.

[Human Paragon 3]

You might want to check out the spymaster prestiege class in the complete adventurer. It doesn't boost caster level at all, but it does give you the following:

Big bonuses on disguise (and bluff)
The ability to rapidly change disguises
A bonus on saves vs. scrying
Magic Aura as a SLA to disguise magic items
The ability to fool scrying and detect thoughts with false info
Undetectable Alignment

All useful to the joker.

[Aquillion]

Do you have a Batman wizard abusing Titan Gate Chains? With a Candle of Invocation, the Joker Bard can do exactly the same thing. And we all know just how moral Joker is, he could get one just by knocking over any old temple who happens to have one.

GM: Okay, you summon your titan chain. So do I. Titan chain negates titan chain. Now let's play nice, shall we?
But if you're going to do that, why even pretend to play fair? Just have a Divine Rank 20 deity with Alter Reality attack them, or have a deity with Life And Death will them to die (no save, no non-divine resistances offer any protection at all, and they can't be restored to life except by the deity who killed them or one with a higher rank?)

I just don't agree with the premise, when I think about it. If powergaming is causing a problem for you, you should take the player aside and discuss it out of character. I've nothing against giving a them a challenge to keep the game fun -- but if you want to actually make the powergaming go away, I don't think that that's something you should try to solve in-game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You might want to check out the spymaster prestiege class in the complete adventurer. It doesn't boost caster level at all, but it does give you the following:

Big bonuses on disguise (and bluff)
The ability to rapidly change disguises
A bonus on saves vs. scrying
Magic Aura as a SLA to disguise magic items
The ability to fool scrying and detect thoughts with false info
Undetectable Alignment

All useful to the joker.

A +4 is not a 'big bonus' to disguise and bluff. Changing disguises rapidly is, indeed handy. Undetectable Alignment is not as useful to him, particularly not as he's got it as a 1st level Bard spell and can keep it up at all times if he wants to.

The bonus on saves vs scrying is good... until the party gets 8th level spells. That's the power break I'm trying to circumvent with a method other than Mind Blank.
Magic Aura as SLA is almost pointless. Joker doesn't use many magic items. He doesn't need them.
Deep Cover is a very handy ability, though. Just stay in Deep Cover and you'll never be able to be scried.

There's just one problem, and this is one that a Spymaster should have been able to counter: Detect Lies/Compel Truth. I suppose he could have Glibness by 7th, so that takes care of that.

Hmm... this may well be the answer I'm looking for.

[Da'Shain]

The discipline involved in being a Spymaster, though, seems like it would be beyond the Joker, fluff-wise. Then again, just because the class is called a spymaster doesn't mean someone with the class is anything remotely like a spymaster in stuff other than mechanics (thank you, 4e, for changing my perspective on that), so it could work.

I don't really see a problem with fighting cheese with cheese, though. The Joker's never been afraid to get his hands dirty, and the writers have never been afraid to give him a deus ex machina or two.

[Yukitsu]

Incorrect. Mind Blank blocks Legend Lore. Contact Plane can only answer 'Yes' or 'No'. It'd take a LOT of playing 20 questions to get anything remotely reliable out of it. And I have no clue what you mean by an 'abjuration of illusion against divinations', because you just contradicted yourself three times by my count.

No, there are no contradictions. Mindblank doesn't prevent anything that are target-self spells. It prevents spells cast on himself. As for contact other plane, location basing with 20 questions is actually significantly easier than 20 questions for anything else.


Nah, I'll just stick to being able to diplomance everyone and everything. Plus the Forsaker's abilities don't kick in unless they destroy magic items. If they can't get near a magic item without it becoming not-magic, it severely nerfs the heck out of the class.

Rogues can do talking, and forsakers only lose DR without the magic destruction. Since it's DR/magic, that's not really relevant.



Which version have you been watching? Old-school Batman tried to kill the Joker umpteen times... just that every time he actually nailed the bastard, it was just a robot. That was what the joke at the end of the '80's movie was about. No, the Joker escapes because the Joker always has an escape route that Batman didn't plan on.

Several comics, all the movies, one where the joker died, though not through direct action and all the episodes of the very campy Adam West batman. There are more batmans that won't kill the joker than their are batmans that will.

[Telonius]

Late to the punch on this one, but there's another problem with Legend Lore: the casting time.


If the person or thing is at hand, or if you are in the place in question, the casting time is only 1d4×10 minutes. If you have only detailed information on the person, place, or thing, the casting time is 1d10 days, and the resulting lore is less complete and specific (though it often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time). If you know only rumors, the casting time is 2d6 weeks, and the resulting lore is vague and incomplete (though it often directs you to more detailed information, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time).

During the casting, you cannot engage in other than routine activities: eating, sleeping, and so forth.

So we're looking at a casting time of d10 days, at best. If Batman is going to cast this, he's going to need to go to a Timeless plane to do it. No way Joker gives him this much time otherwise.

[KnightDisciple]

I do like the bard Joker, personally. It just seems more right.

That said, I want to play a Batman Wizard, specfically so I could fight a Joker Bard.
Because I'm that big of a Batman fan.

[aazru]

Greenstone Amulet from Magics of Faerun - The wearer of a greenstone amulet is protected as if under a mind blank spell.
The user also gains a +4 resistance bonus against necromancy effects, or any effect that would transport the wearer to another locale or dimension. If such an effect normally does not allow a saving throw (such as the maze spell), the user can attempt a Will save (DC 20) to negate the effect.

[Tomada]

I love the concept and may steal it.

But would go pure bard and use magic itens as needed to fill holes left, like the poster above suggested.

About the scrying without the magic, people should know that there is 2 skills that do that non-magically.

Gather information and Survival. Track him and ask about. The joker probably will try to block this way too, but can't block it magically (unless he kills everyone who meets him).

Now that I'm thinking... Most everything Joker will do will be non-magical. Disguises, diplomacy and bluff, gather information... He can build an army and f*ck batman up without casting a single spell. I love it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, there are no contradictions. Mindblank doesn't prevent anything that are target-self spells. It prevents spells cast on himself. As for contact other plane, location basing with 20 questions is actually significantly easier than 20 questions for anything else. Again, incorrect. Legend Lore is a Divination spell, can't find a Mind Blanked person. And you'd be spending so much time trying to play 20 questions that by the time you got any kind of useful information, you'd already know where the Joker is, because he just sent you an invitation to his latest Funhouse.



Rogues can do talking, and forsakers only lose DR without the magic destruction. Since it's DR/magic, that's not really relevant. Rogues don't get access to Glibness which bypasses Detect Lies and Compel Truth (and gives a +30 to Bluff). Without that, any mid-level Cleric will be able to spot and foil him.



Several comics, all the movies, one where the joker died, though not through direct action and all the episodes of the very campy Adam West batman. There are more batmans that won't kill the joker than their are batmans that will.

Yes, and Joker was able to get away from the ones that were trying to kill him. Except once. He gets away more by being that damn clever about escape routes than he does by batman's generosity.

[Yukitsu]

Again, incorrect. Legend Lore is a Divination spell, can't find a Mind Blanked person. And you'd be spending so much time trying to play 20 questions that by the time you got any kind of useful information, you'd already know where the Joker is, because he just sent you an invitation to his latest Funhouse.

Legend lore doesn't find people, it just tells you limited rumors about them. All the wizard needs to gain from it is who's been doing the nefarious schemes.


Rogues don't get access to Glibness which bypasses Detect Lies and Compel Truth (and gives a +30 to Bluff). Without that, any mid-level Cleric will be able to spot and foil him.

Clerics don't get sense motive, and an AMF from flux slime blocks detect lies and compel truth.


Yes, and Joker was able to get away from the ones that were trying to kill him. Except once. He gets away more by being that damn clever about escape routes than he does by batman's generosity.

So have clever escape route. Contingency is not a clever escape route plan, it's a magical cure all button. And I can't recall how many times cartoon joker has wound up in Arkam asylum either.

[NEO|Phyte]

Uh, with this flux slime talk, how exactly does one carry around the extradimensional origin point the slime comes from? The stuff doesn't exactly keep if you separate it from the main mass. Especially since the AMF is merely the byproduct of the slime siphoning magic through said extradimensional origin.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Legend lore doesn't find people, it just tells you limited rumors about them. All the wizard needs to gain from it is who's been doing the nefarious schemes.Incorrect. And at any rate, because you only have vague rumors, the casting time is WEEKS, by which time, his next scheme is already in place. It also doesn't tell you where he currently is, which is what Batman Wizard needs, only where he's been.



Clerics don't get sense motive, and an AMF from flux slime blocks detect lies and compel truth. Paladins get Sense Motive, and see above poster about viability of Flux Slime and lack of attainability.


So have clever escape route. Contingency is not a clever escape route plan, it's a magical cure all button. And I can't recall how many times cartoon joker has wound up in Arkam asylum either.

Contingency is the counter to Batman Wizard's many "You Die, No Save, No SR" buttons (such as Twinned Empowered Maximized Orb of Sound spells). Also, re-read what has been going on. I've found a way to bypass most of the things without resorting to wiz/sorc spells.

At any rate, I've found that mind Blank is not necesary to counter Discern Location. Fool Scry works just as well, because it is a divination spell. It doesn't prevent the scry, but it does fool it. Thus straight Bard 20 will counter every attempt the Batman Wizard has of trying to figure out where he is.

[olentu]

At any rate, I've found that mind Blank is not necesary to counter Discern Location. Fool Scry works just as well, because it is a divination spell. It doesn't prevent the scry, but it does fool it. Thus straight Bard 20 will counter every attempt the Batman Wizard has of trying to figure out where he is.

When you say fool scry do you mean False Vision which says

"Any divination (scrying) spell used to view anything within the area of this spell instead receives a false image (as the major image spell), as defined by you at the time of casting. As long as the duration lasts, you can concentrate to change the image as desired. While you aren’t concentrating, the image remains static."

Since it would seem that since false vision only works on divination (scrying) spells and since Discern Location is not of the scrying sub school then false vision does nothing to prevent it finding its target.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

When you say fool scry do you mean False Vision which says

"Any divination (scrying) spell used to view anything within the area of this spell instead receives a false image (as the major image spell), as defined by you at the time of casting. As long as the duration lasts, you can concentrate to change the image as desired. While you aren’t concentrating, the image remains static."

Since it would seem that since false vision only works on divination (scrying) spells and since Discern Location is not of the scrying sub school then false vision does nothing to prevent it finding its target.

Hmmm.... true. However,
To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. So they have to have seen the Joker for it to work. Since he's the BBEG working through puppets, they probably haven't seen him yet. Or, just have aforementioned amulet with constant Mind Blank.

[olentu]

Hmmm.... true. However, So they have to have seen the Joker for it to work. Since he's the BBEG working through puppets, they probably haven't seen him yet. Or, just have aforementioned amulet with constant Mind Blank.

However I thought one of the main ideas is to use "Time Pressure. Kidnap someone/steal something dearly important." and it is very likely that the caster has seen the person or has touched the object.

[quiet1mi]

why not something important to people important to him (wrap you mind around that) ... or something deemed too dangerous to exist in mortal hands...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

However I thought one of the main ideas is to use "Time Pressure. Kidnap someone/steal something dearly important." and it is very likely that the caster has seen the person or has touched the object.

Fine. That tells you exactly where the person is. It doesn't tell you anything about the area it's/he/she's in, just the exact location. Now, you can use that to target a scry with... which is then subject to False Vision, letting Batman prepare for the wrong situation, then ports in to a far different situation than the one he prepared for.

In fact, this is playing right into Joker's hands, by rushing in where fools fear to tread.

I just want to keep the party from being able to lock up the Joker. Finding the victim is what the Joker WANTS you to do.

[olentu]

Fine. That tells you exactly where the person is. It doesn't tell you anything about the area it's/he/she's in, just the exact location. Now, you can use that to target a scry with... which is then subject to False Vision, letting Batman prepare for the wrong situation, then ports in to a far different situation than the one he prepared for.

In fact, this is playing right into Joker's hands, by rushing in where fools fear to tread.

I just want to keep the party from being able to lock up the Joker. Finding the victim is what the Joker WANTS you to do.

Well if you want the caster to find where you are then why use false vision. It would be a better idea to take advantage of the fact that scrying only gives vision in approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject. Just keep your traps and minions at least 10 feet away from where the scrying sensor will appear and hope that the caster does not telport in during a time stop or realizes the limitation in the scrying spell and just teleports into the general vicinity and then walks in.

[quiet1mi]

What is the minimum level would you recommend PCs be to first confront the joker without having their wind pipe stuffed down their esophagus?

I love the concept...But I am just afraid of a character that would wipe the floor with the players and result in a TPK...

Also is there a lower level that the Joker can exist on and still retain his need to be dealt with... (I am starting my players off at level 8)

[Aquillion]

Well if you want the caster to find where you are then why use false vision. It would be a better idea to take advantage of the fact that scrying only gives vision in approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject. Just keep your traps and minions at least 10 feet away from where the scrying sensor will appear and hope that the caster does not telport in during a time stop or realizes the limitation in the scrying spell and just teleports into the general vicinity and then walks in.
Delay Teleportation (I think that's what it was called?) will handle teleport-in-during-a-time-stop issues.

[olentu]

Delay Teleportation (I think that's what it was called?) will handle teleport-in-during-a-time-stop issues.

I think it is Anticipate Teleport that you are thinking of. However greater scrying allows the use of detect magic through the sensor and it would be quite silly to teleport into an area that is full of an unidentified magical field. That being said less careful casters would probably be caught in said trap. More careful casters would probably either use some other divination to determine what the spell that is all over the place is or would teleport some ways away and walk in.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well if you want the caster to find where you are then why use false vision. It would be a better idea to take advantage of the fact that scrying only gives vision in approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject. Just keep your traps and minions at least 10 feet away from where the scrying sensor will appear and hope that the caster does not telport in during a time stop or realizes the limitation in the scrying spell and just teleports into the general vicinity and then walks in.

I don't want them to be able to find the Joker, I want them to be able to find the VICTIM. And I use False Vision so the Batman Wizard will see the wrong situation and prepare the wrong spells for the encounter.

You see, Batman Wizard will blow away any encounter he can prepare for. So, I present him an encounter he has prepared incorrectly for. That makes it a LOT tougher. And, of course, the clock is still ticking, so they can't just port out, re-prepare, and come right back in.

quiet1mi: Joker Bard can be scaled down considerabally. vs a level 8 party... it would depend on the circumstances and the party build. He was built to be ABLE to counter Batman Wizard with heavy optimization. That doesn't mean he can't still challenge the party without destroying them.

Remember always, Joker never faces the party directly. He always uses pawns, cat's paws, and misdirection to achieve his deeds.

Expect a PM from me shortly quiet1mi for a more detailed treatsie

[olentu]

I don't want them to be able to find the Joker, I want them to be able to find the VICTIM. And I use False Vision so the Batman Wizard will see the wrong situation and prepare the wrong spells for the encounter.

You see, Batman Wizard will blow away any encounter he can prepare for. So, I present him an encounter he has prepared incorrectly for. That makes it a LOT tougher. And, of course, the clock is still ticking, so they can't just port out, re-prepare, and come right back in.

quiet1mi: Joker Bard can be scaled down considerabally. vs a level 8 party... it would depend on the circumstances and the party build. He was built to be ABLE to counter Batman Wizard with heavy optimization. That doesn't mean he can't still challenge the party without destroying them.

Remember always, Joker never faces the party directly. He always uses pawns, cat's paws, and misdirection to achieve his deeds.

Expect a PM from me shortly quiet1mi for a more detailed treatsie

Assuming you will allow a successful scry on the victim there are three things I can think of that would pose a problem. First the fact that detect magic works through a grater scrying sensor and thus would show that there is an emanation of illusion magic in the area. The use of some other divination to confirm the results of the scry if the caster is very paranoid. Finally the possible use of the crystal ball with true seeing.

These problems might be circumvented with by placing your encounter outside of the range of the scrying sensor.

To successfully use anticipate teleport it would probably be best to use detect scrying to determine when the scry attempt comes and then cast anticipate teleport. This would probably catch less paranoid casters who do not regularly use anticipate teleport however there is still the problem of a very paranoid caster using other divinations to determine if they will be effected by any spell ability or effect when they teleport to the location. Also porting to the general vicinity and then walking in.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Assuming you will allow a successful scry on the victim there are three things I can think of that would pose a problem. First the fact that detect magic works through a grater scrying sensor and thus would show that there is an emanation of illusion magic in the area. The use of some other divination to confirm the results of the scry if the caster is very paranoid. Finally the possible use of the crystal ball with true seeing.
Nope. You won't be able to detect the aura of illusion magic because the scry will be fooled into thinking it isn't there. By the time the party can afford a crystal ball with true seeing, Joker will have ways of countering even this. Also, this is what Magic Aura was designed for. Magic? Nope... no magic here....

Consider, if you will, the humble Disguise skill. No magic involved. He sets up a stage, set for the scryer's viewing pleasure. No magical effects going on at all.


These problems might be circumvented with by placing your encounter outside of the range of the scrying sensor.

To successfully use anticipate teleport it would probably be best to use detect scrying to determine when the scry attempt comes and then cast anticipate teleport. This would probably catch less paranoid casters who do not regularly use anticipate teleport however there is still the problem of a very paranoid caster using other divinations to determine if they will be effected by any spell ability or effect when they teleport to the location. Also porting to the general vicinity and then walking in.
Actually, why bother screwing with their teleport? If you're gonna do that, then just drop down a Dimensional Lock and call it done. Let them port right into your carefully prepared trap and let him shoot his own foot off.

"Will I be affected by any spell ability or effect when I teleport into the location?"
"No." (you're just going to be attacked by everything you're not defending against AFTER you show up).

[olentu]

Nope. You won't be able to detect the aura of illusion magic because the scry will be fooled into thinking it isn't there. By the time the party can afford a crystal ball with true seeing, Joker will have ways of countering even this. Also, this is what Magic Aura was designed for. Magic? Nope... no magic here....

Consider, if you will, the humble Disguise skill. No magic involved. He sets up a stage, set for the scryer's viewing pleasure. No magical effects going on at all.


Actually, why bother screwing with their teleport? If you're gonna do that, then just drop down a Dimensional Lock and call it done. Let them port right into your carefully prepared trap and let him shoot his own foot off.

"Will I be affected by any spell ability or effect when I teleport into the location?"
"No." (you're just going to be attacked by everything you're not defending against AFTER you show up).

The first bit is debatable since false vision says nothing about how detect magic is affected, it only says that the scrying spell receives a false image and major image only includes sight, sound, smell, and thermal illusions. And so the detect magic would seem to work as normal thus detecting the presence of magical auras their strength, location, and possibly school if spellcraft checks are made. However a DM could rule differently if they want.

Magic aura really depends since it can only "alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical, or a magic item of a kind you specify, or the subject of a spell you specify." And since false vision effects an area it would take a ruling on whether a detect magic spell would detect the area of the spell while still registering the item as non magical. I would lean towards detecting the area effect of the spell since I would allow detect magic to detect an area effect of a spell such as a Magic Circle against Evil even if the target of the spell is not in range of the detect magic spell.

However as this is a build for DMs they can just rule the way they like.

And finally as I was saying why not just hide an encounter and hope that the caster does not get lucky and use other divinations to ask something that will reveal the trap.

Edit: or teleport to the general area and mess up the plan by walking in rather then teleporting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The first bit is debatable since false vision says nothing about how detect magic is affected, it only says that the scrying spell receives a false image and major image only includes sight, sound, smell, and thermal illusions. And so the detect magic would seem to work as normal thus detecting the presence of magical auras their strength, location, and possibly school if spellcraft checks are made. However a DM could rule differently if they want.

Magic aura really depends since it can only "alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical, or a magic item of a kind you specify, or the subject of a spell you specify." And since false vision effects an area it would take a ruling on whether a detect magic spell would detect the area of the spell while still registering the item as non magical. I would lean towards detecting the area effect of the spell since I would allow detect magic to detect an area effect of a spell such as a Magic Circle against Evil even if the target of the spell is not in range of the detect magic spell.

However as this is a build for DMs they can just rule the way they like.

And finally as I was saying why not just hide an encounter and hope that the caster does not get lucky and use other divinations to ask something that will reveal the trap.

Because I'm wanting the Batman Wizard to mis-prepare. Maybe I'm just getting too elegant, but I'm trying to ram Batman Wizard's tactics right up where the sun don't shine. Also, if you give him an encounter he can plainly see... he likely won't look for others. So he sees a 'puppet show', for which he prepares. Then, when he ports in, he finds his spell list is mostly the wrong one to face the challenge he's looking at, with no way to go back and change it.

This is to make things fair for the rest of the party.

If, for example, the Batman Wizard has been completely and totally dominating everything, make him mis-prepare and find himself faced with a bunch of undead. Finally, the Cleric gets a chance to do something other than make coffee!

Or if they're just big, huge, beefy things with craptons of hit points? The Rogue and the Tank get to shine, chewing threw them because the Wizard mis-prepared, and doesn't have anything that will work well on them.

He'll still be able to contribute some. No Batman Wizard is going to be so completely thrown as he has nothing to do to contribute, after all. However, he's taken down from 'I can eliminate the encounter, 100% guaranteed, the first round' to not more powerful than the rest of the party.

[Aquillion]

Because I'm wanting the Batman Wizard to mis-prepare. Maybe I'm just getting too elegant, but I'm trying to ram Batman Wizard's tactics right up where the sun don't shine. Also, if you give him an encounter he can plainly see... he likely won't look for others. So he sees a 'puppet show', for which he prepares. Then, when he ports in, he finds his spell list is mostly the wrong one to face the challenge he's looking at, with no way to go back and change it.The problem is that the 'core' components of the Batman's repertoire are general-purpose spells. No matter how good your puppet show is, it's not going to convince him to pass over those. Disintegrate, say, is almost always useful. How are you going to concoct a situation to negate the basics like...

* Disintegrate?
* Battlefield alteration?
* Teleportation magics?
* Buffs?

Likewise, no matter how obvious it is that they're facing one particular threat, any Batman wizard who is not stupid (and, hey, ~32 int) is going to prepare multiple spells targeting every save. This is just because, in your typical encounter, you generally won't have the chance to cast every single spell -- devoting some to alternative dangers is therefore always worthwhile. No matter how many dumb, low-will-save high-con-save brutes you show him in your puppet show, he's still going to prepare at least a few spells like Disintegrate, Finger of Death, etc. No matter how many undead he sees in your puppet show, he's still likely to have at least a few spells like Enervation. Etc.

The whole point of being Batman is that you're prepared for everything. Divinations help, but trying to trick them into not preparing the basic spells + a few save-or-die/sucks against every save is a lost cause. That's what makes them Batman in the first place.

Also note that this trick may work... once. After that, all future divinations will be taken as strictly advisory; your Batman will prepare against them a bit, but will always be sure to have their general-purpose spells ready, too.

And in the end, Batman wizards just aren't as dependent on divinations as you seem to think. They could throw up their hands, say "Fine, no more using divinations to choose my spells," and they'd still be more powerful than almost any non-fullcaster.

I'm not disputing that this build could cause more problems for him than usual, but that's because it's a full caster who abuses diplomacy, not because of any of the other fancy tricks. Seriously, imagine trying to take on this guy without a full caster of your own -- assuming he goes all out. Good luck with that.

[Yahzi]

Bardic Joker
Very clever! I love this.

[TempusCCK]

You guys are overlooking one of the major points of him being a Bard with crazy spellcasting... Bardic Knowledge. Any character over 13 is considered a legendary character and therefore subject to Bardic Knowledge, so the Joker can learn about things in the Batmans life without needing to divine anything.

[olentu]

You guys are overlooking one of the major points of him being a Bard with crazy spellcasting... Bardic Knowledge. Any character over 13 is considered a legendary character and therefore subject to Bardic Knowledge, so the Joker can learn about things in the Batmans life without needing to divine anything.

That would probably be how the bard finds someone or something that the character values.

[Sir Giacomo]

...bardic joker idea...

Fluffwise a great idea, plus also with good tactical ideas. Probably the batman world set to a fantasy campaign would be that instead of technical stuff, batman and joker would use magic.
It's debatable whether batman would really be a wizard, but for the joker the bard class would really fit nicely in case the batman is a wizard.
In case that the original idea of the comic is followed in that batman has no superpowers (neither does the joker), then of course it would be better to have both be impersonated by non-caster classes with UMD (access to magical, instead of mechanical devices).

In that case, a martial class for batman would be fitting, and a rogue would be nice for the Joker (both bluff AND UMD and all that).
But the bard's ability to use perform-comedy (or oratory) as bardic music is really neat.

- Giacomo

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The problem is that the 'core' components of the Batman's repertoire are general-purpose spells. No matter how good your puppet show is, it's not going to convince him to pass over those. Disintegrate, say, is almost always useful. How are you going to concoct a situation to negate the basics like...

* Disintegrate?
* Battlefield alteration?
* Teleportation magics?
* Buffs? Buffs? Easy. Greater Dispel Magic. Teleportation magics? Dimension Lock. Battlefield Alteration? Greater Dispel Magic. Disintegrate? Well, you got to let Batman Wizard do SOMETHING. Besides, if all he's found himself able to do is disintegrate things, then you've scaled his power down to something that the rest of the players haven't been overshadowed by.


Likewise, no matter how obvious it is that they're facing one particular threat, any Batman wizard who is not stupid (and, hey, ~32 int) is going to prepare multiple spells targeting every save. This is just because, in your typical encounter, you generally won't have the chance to cast every single spell -- devoting some to alternative dangers is therefore always worthwhile. No matter how many dumb, low-will-save high-con-save brutes you show him in your puppet show, he's still going to prepare at least a few spells like Disintegrate, Finger of Death, etc. No matter how many undead he sees in your puppet show, he's still likely to have at least a few spells like Enervation. Etc.

The whole point of being Batman is that you're prepared for everything. Divinations help, but trying to trick them into not preparing the basic spells + a few save-or-die/sucks against every save is a lost cause. That's what makes them Batman in the first place.

Also note that this trick may work... once. After that, all future divinations will be taken as strictly advisory; your Batman will prepare against them a bit, but will always be sure to have their general-purpose spells ready, too.

And in the end, Batman wizards just aren't as dependent on divinations as you seem to think. They could throw up their hands, say "Fine, no more using divinations to choose my spells," and they'd still be more powerful than almost any non-fullcaster.Then I've done my job. The Batman Wizard is no longer completely overshadowing the rest of the group. Powerful, yes. But not so "I win on the first round, and the rest of the party can make coffee" powerful.


I'm not disputing that this build could cause more problems for him than usual, but that's because it's a full caster who abuses diplomacy, not because of any of the other fancy tricks. Seriously, imagine trying to take on this guy without a full caster of your own -- assuming he goes all out. Good luck with that.

Actually, non-full casters won't have too many problems with him either... assuming they can ever find the Joker. The problem is that he keeps them too wrapped up running around chasing shadows and mirrors.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to do is make Batman Wizard take his four daily encounters and make him start blowing a lot more spells than he's used to.

Most of the time, Batman Wizard can prepare exactly the right spell for exactly the right situation, and whenever he gets hurting, can cast MMM and recover spells, regardless of how many foes may be outside.

Joker Bard is the counter to that. He keeps the time pressure on Batman, keeps the carrot dangling just a little bit out of reach. They'll beat every trap Joker can throw at them, of course. That's the point. Remember, this is the BBEG, the DM's 'hero' unit. He's supposed to loose. He's just supposed to level the playing field a bit and let the rest of the party be more useful than a typical Unseen Servant spell.


Fluffwise a great idea, plus also with good tactical ideas. Probably the batman world set to a fantasy campaign would be that instead of technical stuff, batman and joker would use magic.
It's debatable whether batman would really be a wizard, but for the joker the bard class would really fit nicely in case the batman is a wizard.
In case that the original idea of the comic is followed in that batman has no superpowers (neither does the joker), then of course it would be better to have both be impersonated by non-caster classes with UMD (access to magical, instead of mechanical devices).

In that case, a martial class for batman would be fitting, and a rogue would be nice for the Joker (both bluff AND UMD and all that).
But the bard's ability to use perform-comedy (or oratory) as bardic music is really neat.
Thank you, but I think you may have missed the other reference. Remember TLN's "Wizard's guide to being Batman"? That is what this is designed to challenge.

Always remember, encounters run at the power of Plot. Just because this build can curb stomp any non-batman-esque build, doesn't mean he HAS to. If the party doesn't have a Batman Wizard, then the Joker Bard gets scaled back, some of the tactics are not used, and he still provides a viable challenge.

[Epic_Wizard]

Fluffwise a great idea, plus also with good tactical ideas. Probably the batman world set to a fantasy campaign would be that instead of technical stuff, batman and joker would use magic.
It's debatable whether batman would really be a wizard, but for the joker the bard class would really fit nicely in case the batman is a wizard.
In case that the original idea of the comic is followed in that batman has no superpowers (neither does the joker), then of course it would be better to have both be impersonated by non-caster classes with UMD (access to magical, instead of mechanical devices).

In that case, a martial class for batman would be fitting, and a rogue would be nice for the Joker (both bluff AND UMD and all that).
But the bard's ability to use perform-comedy (or oratory) as bardic music is really neat.

- Giacomo

There is actually a class called Vigilante which even spoofs Batman's picture for the artwork. I think it's in Complete Adventurer or some such.

[Sir Giacomo]

Thank you, but I think you may have missed the other reference. Remember TLN's "Wizard's guide to being Batman"? That is what this is designed to challenge.


In case the typical batman wizard player puts priority on INT, then DEX, then CON, the WIS is likely lowish.
So the joker bard's enchantments could be quite a pain for batman - until mind blank becomes available, but the joker bard could greater dispel that away, possibly with a 50% chance.

- Giacomo

[Alcopop]

I think he needs evasion an mettle, to represent the jokers ability to slip out of everything virtualy unscathed.

Maybe a 3 level dip into hexblade and a ring of evasion?
Not to mention the hex blades got that charisma mod to save vs utility bel... i mean spells.

[Vexxation]

In case the typical batman wizard player puts priority on INT, then DEX, then CON, the WIS is likely lowish.
So the joker bard's enchantments could be quite a pain for batman - until mind blank becomes available, but the joker bard could greater dispel that away, possibly with a 50% chance.

- Giacomo

Except that as a Wizard, his high save is Will, so it'll actually most likely be higher than his Reflex or Fortitude, despite attribute bonuses.

[Tomada]

There is actually a class called Vigilante which even spoofs Batman's picture for the artwork. I think it's in Complete Adventurer or some such.

There is. But it's not too fitting. I think it is too weak and bland.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In case the typical batman wizard player puts priority on INT, then DEX, then CON, the WIS is likely lowish.
So the joker bard's enchantments could be quite a pain for batman - until mind blank becomes available, but the joker bard could greater dispel that away, possibly with a 50% chance.

- Giacomo

Yes, but the Joker Bard isn't going anywhere near the party, ideally. Not until the end of the campaign, at least. Besides, Joker Bard in combat isn't going to target the Batman Wizard. He's going to target the Ubercharger, Dominate him, and make HIM attack the Batman Wizard, which ties up TWO party members, not just one. Maybe even the Rogue instead, who also has a poor Will save. If the Wizard isn't aware of the attack, it's a sneak attack, and he's not expecting his buddy to attack him, is he?

[Sir Giacomo]

Yes, but the Joker Bard isn't going anywhere near the party, ideally. Not until the end of the campaign, at least. Besides, Joker Bard in combat isn't going to target the Batman Wizard. He's going to target the Ubercharger, Dominate him, and make HIM attack the Batman Wizard, which ties up TWO party members, not just one. Maybe even the Rogue instead, who also has a poor Will save. If the Wizard isn't aware of the attack, it's a sneak attack, and he's not expecting his buddy to attack him, is he?

Yep, you're correct. And another weak area of a WIS "dump stat" - a wizard does not have sense motive as class ability, either. Yes, that could work both technically and make a dramatic challenge for a group!

I wonder...could the joker charm a wizard's familiar without the wizard noticing it? Probably not...but it would be fun...:smallwink:

- Giacomo

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think he needs evasion an mettle, to represent the jokers ability to slip out of everything virtualy unscathed.

Maybe a 3 level dip into hexblade and a ring of evasion?
Not to mention the hex blades got that charisma mod to save vs utility bel... i mean spells.

Were I making him a combat-effective character, that would be a good move. Along with Warshaper from CompWar to give him a host of immunities, extra reach, and some other goodies.

However, he's not designed to be optimized from a combat perspective. He'll do everything he can to keep from being located and attacked. He works through pawns, minions, and cat's-paws.

For brute combat, he can just Diplomance a tribe of giants into attacking something. Mere physical combat is beneath him. Corruption of morals, twisting of ethics, and making the PC who is possibly the most powerful mortal in existance dance to his tune... that's what he gets his kicks from.

[Mercenary Pen]

Question is, if you're using this, should you try to create a city as a simulacrum of Gotham City?

Because, assuming we've reached the stage where the Batman-wizard actually cares about what's going on, a proper urban environment (with constraints that the wizard will actually stick to against blasting everything or casting save-or-sucks on huge crowds of commoners to get the two or three thugs) actually make things even more interesting...

Also, I assume that Joker Bard would normally have a diplomanced Artificer on hand to provide some of the counter-gadegtry the joker traditionally has...

[Dacia Brabant]

This is really neat I must say, and definitely keeps the flavor of the Joker while having a lot of tools at his disposal to stalemate the Batman-wizard and still throw as many mooks at the other PCs as needed to keep them occupied while the death-trap gambit works its way to completion. That's the point of such a villain of course, not to kill or otherwise defeat the heroes in combat but destroy what they hold dear, to keep doing that until the heroes go mad and/or the people they protect turn against them.

But, and this is an honest question because my 3.5ed knowledge isn't what it used to be, what's to keep the party from dropping as many Silence spells as they can all over the place once they know they're up against a social combat master? I know there are ways to get around Silenced areas for spellcasting, and he could always try to dispel it (not a guarantee to always work) but until it is dispelled he wouldn't be able to use Bluff or Diplomacy on anyone, and when he does dispel it that is a pretty clear indicator that he's nearby. And if the PCs are that worried about him Bluffing them into oblivion, they could just deafen themselves and use Telepathic Bond until he's dealt with then get cured by the friendly neighborhood cleric.

[The Glyphstone]

Silence only lasts what, 10 min/level, and only has a 10 or 20 ft. radius? It's also fairly disruptive for ordinary social interaction, not just Joker Diplomancy, so having their Silences dispelled might be the work of legitimate authority who could be getting upset with the PCs.

And of course, that is All According To Plan.

[Dacia Brabant]

Silence only lasts what, 10 min/level, and only has a 10 or 20 ft. radius? It's also fairly disruptive for ordinary social interaction, not just Joker Diplomancy, so having their Silences dispelled might be the work of legitimate authority who could be getting upset with the PCs.

And of course, that is All According To Plan.

Those are good points, especially that last one. But what about Deafness+Telepathic Bond for the PCs' own protection?

Heck, since TB is also 10 min/level like Silence, I'd just cast that on everyone instead of Deafness for the same effect but without the permanent-until-cured part.

[The Glyphstone]

That works better, though it becomes a big hassle when/if they're dealing with anyone outside the party. Quest NPCs, merchants, etc.

TB can be Permancied, I believe, so the duration isn't an issue there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

TB is okay for party communication, however it doesn't provide any protection vs mind affecting, it just lets them communicate.

Unless you're trying to talking about trying to link an entire NATION with TB...

1) it's a 5th level spell. How many 9+ level Wizards are there around?

2) 1 target per 3 caster levels. That's not a whole lot of people.

3)
Telepathic bond can be made permanent with a permanency spell, though it only bonds two creatures per casting of permanency. So Population/2*2,500 xp cost. Not even remotely feasable.

4) Do you really want to be in everyone's head?

5) Congratulations, Big Brother himself would be bowing at your feet. You have instigated a totalitarian regime and required manditory mental monitoring. You can hear the Joker's maniacal laughter echoing through the thought-stream. His work here is done, time to find another playground.

And no, I don't want to make a Gotham City. The only reason why I called this the Joker Bard is because a) he uses similar tactics, and b) he's the counter to Batman Wizard which became so popular after TLN's guide.

[KnightDisciple]

I feel compelled to post these.

http://aslancross.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/chaoticevil-copy.jpg
http://www.whackpackstudios.com/GalleryPages/Ed/Neutral%20Evil.jpg
http://www.baddaystudio.com/MotivateJoker1.jpg

[Dacia Brabant]

TB is okay for party communication, however it doesn't provide any protection vs mind affecting, it just lets them communicate.

Unless you're trying to talking about trying to link an entire NATION with TB...

1) it's a 5th level spell. How many 9+ level Wizards are there around?

2) 1 target per 3 caster levels. That's not a whole lot of people.

3) So Population/2*2,500 xp cost. Not even remotely feasable.

4) Do you really want to be in everyone's head?

5) Congratulations, Big Brother himself would be bowing at your feet. You have instigated a totalitarian regime and required manditory mental monitoring. You can hear the Joker's maniacal laughter echoing through the thought-stream. His work here is done, time to find another playground.

Oh now you're just being obtuse. :smalltongue:

The point was to have the PCs deafen themselves to block sound-based attacks/social combat while still having a way to silently communicate with each other when they go up against Mr. J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh now you're just being obtuse. :smalltongue:

The point was to have the PCs deafen themselves to block sound-based attacks/social combat while still having a way to silently communicate with each other when they go up against Mr. J.

Dominate Person doesn't require anything sound-based, and that's Mr. J's most likely first tactic on anything that looks like it can cause massive amounts of physical damage but doesn't look too bright.

That's, of course, assuming that they ever get to meet Joker face to face. Considering his hit-and-run tactics, that's not too likely until the end of the campaign.

[Epic_Wizard]

Except that as a Wizard, his high save is Will, so it'll actually most likely be higher than his Reflex or Fortitude, despite attribute bonuses.

We did a 20th level quick campaign (which may wind up going long and into epic levels) with my DM, my gf, one of our other players, and his gf. I played a Wizard and since my DM said he didn't want me to play an Evocation specialist (my usual Wizard build) I went with a Halfling Transmuter. Plus I got a Robe of the Archmagi and took Lightning Reflexes as a feat. I was flying above the battle with Druid mounted on a Dire Elephant and the DM tells me that he's sorry but he can't have me flying around up there being all annoying and drops a Sunburst on me. The look oh his face when I tell him my base Reflex Save is 23 was priceless :smallbiggrin:


Oh now you're just being obtuse. :smalltongue:

The point was to have the PCs deafen themselves to block sound-based attacks/social combat while still having a way to silently communicate with each other when they go up against Mr. J.

Diplomacy checks and the like don't work on the PC's so that's a moot issue. If the PC's are bringing along NPC friends then that's a whole nother matter but in that case permanent TB isn't necessary, just for the duration of the encounter.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

We did a 20th level quick campaign (which may wind up going long and into epic levels) with my DM, my gf, one of our other players, and his gf. I played a Wizard and since my DM said he didn't want me to play an Evocation specialist (my usual Wizard build) I went with a Halfling Transmuter. Plus I got a Robe of the Archmagi and took Lightning Reflexes as a feat. I was flying above the battle with Druid mounted on a Dire Elephant and the DM tells me that he's sorry but he can't have me flying around up there being all annoying and drops a Sunburst on me. The look oh his face when I tell him my base Reflex Save is 23 was priceless :smallbiggrin:
You must have an interesting group. I'd have simply hit whichever one of the three things up there was doing the actual flying with a targeted Greater Dispel Magic and brought you all back down. Or just thrown a couple of Huge Air Elementals at you to play with up there...

[Temp.]

I like the idea, but I have echo one question from the second page: Why not Beguiler?

It seems that the benefits of Bard over Beguiler are improved BAB, Bardic Music buffs and Suggestion. Neither Base Attack or the buffs is going to matter and Suggestion can be replaced by a spell.

The Beguiler has more skill points, has a more spontaneous form of casting and has more spell uses per day.

If you want to match the Beguiler's casting with Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge, you only fall further behind in skills. If you want to multiclass to match it in skills (I can't think of an 8+Int full casting PrC), you fall even further behind in casting.

The character's abilities would generally remain the same, but Beguiler advances to bigger and better powers more quickly.

...Just a thought.
That said, I'm probably going to contradict myself by going the opposite direction and use your idea, substituting Lurk for Bard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I like the idea, but I have echo one question from the second page: Why not Beguiler?

It seems that the benefits of Bard over Beguiler are improved BAB, Bardic Music buffs and Suggestion. Neither Base Attack or the buffs is going to matter and Suggestion can be replaced by a spell.

The Beguiler has more skill points, has a more spontaneous form of casting and has more spell uses per day.

If you want to match the Beguiler's casting with Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge, you only fall further behind in skills. If you want to multiclass to match it in skills (I can't think of an 8+Int full casting PrC), you fall even further behind in casting.

The character's abilities would generally remain the same, but Beguiler advances to bigger and better powers more quickly.

...Just a thought.
That said, I'm probably going to contradict myself by going the opposite direction and use your idea, substituting Lurk for Bard.

First off, because the Joker Bard does 99% of his stuff without magic. And Second, because of Glibness. It's Bard only, not Sorc/Wiz, so Beguilers can't get it. Being able to lie and get away with it, even under Compel Truth and Zone of Truth is absolutely critical for this build.

Bards get just as many skills as Beguilers do, both are 6+ Int mod. How does he end up with fewer skills as a Bard?

You also get Bardic Knowledge, which the Joker Bard uses to keep tabs on what the Party is doing, which the Beguiler has no way to duplicate.

Again, this is a guy who can, with 10 minutes of RP and not a single spell, can change a man's morale compass so completely that he goes from Harvey Dent to Two Face. Can your beguiler even begin to match that?

[Temp.]

First off, because the Joker Bard does 99% of his stuff without magic. And Second, because of Glibness. It's Bard only, not Sorc/Wiz, so Beguilers can't get it. Being able to lie and get away with it, even under Compel Truth and Zone of Truth is absolutely critical for this build.Good thing the Beguiler gets Glibness a level before the Bard? And can cast it more often?


Bards get just as many skills as Beguilers do, both are 6+ Int mod. How does he end up with fewer skills as a Bard? Intelligence-based casting will usually mean more Intelligence and more skills. It's more of a PC thing, but it might matter.

I don't put much stock in Bardic Knowledge. A good social network should cover this for the Joker's purposes.

[edit:]

Again, this is a guy who can, with 10 minutes of RP and not a single spell, can change a man's morale compass so completely that he goes from Harvey Dent to Two Face. Can your beguiler even begin to match that?
Err... what? The only thing Bards have along these lines that Beguilers don't is Suggestion. And that's just a spell with a different label.

[kladams707]

Bards get just as many skills as Beguilers do, both are 6+ Int mod. How does he end up with fewer skills as a Bard?


6+Bard's int mod as compared to 6+beguiler's int mod.

[TempusCCK]

You know, the Joker could easily set a fatal trap for the Batman, put the player in his place for sure, so next time he'll realize "huh, if I powergame, the DM kills me, and he kills me fair..."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, the Joker could easily set a fatal trap for the Batman, put the player in his place for sure, so next time he'll realize "huh, if I powergame, the DM kills me, and he kills me fair..."

You're not going to be able to build a trap capable of killing an optimized Batman Wizard. It simply cannot be done. However, you can make things... exceedingly annoying for him, which is exactly what this build is designed to do.

[Epic_Wizard]

You must have an interesting group. I'd have simply hit whichever one of the three things up there was doing the actual flying with a targeted Greater Dispel Magic and brought you all back down. Or just thrown a couple of Huge Air Elementals at you to play with up there...

He revealed afterwords that the druid was only 15th level and besides I wasn't being THAT effective. I have lots of books but I haven't had a chance to use them until recently so I need to learn what to cast when. In retrospect I should have dumped Reverse Gravity early in the fight along with Greater Arcane Sight followed up by some buff removal on him.


You're not going to be able to build a trap capable of killing an optimized Batman Wizard. It simply cannot be done. However, you can make things... exceedingly annoying for him, which is exactly what this build is designed to do.

Never EVER say "it can't be done" because trust me it can. I could probably work something up that would kill off 90% of people that walked into it and probably using something simple like "you forgot to look up". Heck just use enough anti-divination spells in subtle enough places and Batman can die on the first turn of combat without ever using one of his spells. Yes it would take another Wizard to do this (probably) but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

Oh yeah and never say this to a DM. He will take it as a challenge and you will find yourself a greasy spot on the campaign setting. :smallwink:

[olentu]

Oh yeah and never say this to a DM. He will take it as a challenge and you will find yourself a greasy spot on the campaign setting. :smallwink:

Yeah this could be a very bad idea. With a determined DM you will get a trap that consists of a room containing a Simulacrum of an appropriate deity that uses Life And Death on you or something like that.

[Duff]

If there was a PrC he could get into that let him bypass scrying, alignment and truth detection, and advanced Bard casting, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Unseen Seer?, Maybe with a homebrew Bard-y bit that adds bardic music and bardic knowledge as well

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Never EVER say "it can't be done" because trust me it can. I could probably work something up that would kill off 90% of people that walked into it and probably using something simple like "you forgot to look up". Heck just use enough anti-divination spells in subtle enough places and Batman can die on the first turn of combat without ever using one of his spells. Yes it would take another Wizard to do this (probably) but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

Oh yeah and never say this to a DM. He will take it as a challenge and you will find yourself a greasy spot on the campaign setting. :smallwink:

In this case, I *AM* the GM, and the Joker Bard was the result of "Nothing can even CHALLENGE my Optimized Batman Wizard".

Also, I have an extreme dislike of the "Oops, you forgot to look up, the Sphere of Ahniliation just ate you, hand over your character sheet" type traps, either as a player OR as a GM.

I also am wanting to make the Joker Bard WITHOUT Homebrew. Let's face it, there's enough material out there that I don't need to.


If there was a PrC he could get into that let him bypass scrying, alignment and truth detection, and advanced Bard casting, I'd do it in a heartbeat. There is. It's called Bard. Bards get False Vision to fool scrying, as well as Undetectable Alignment and Glibness which fools truth detection.

[TempusCCK]

Batman wizard teleports into room holding plot-important item/person. Simultaneously three traps go off in the relatively tiny room, one is an antimagic field trap, trapping the wizard, one pumps high DC Con-damage poison into the air, the other is a resetting series of arrow traps that come from tiny holes in the wall.

Batman suffocates, unable to do anything but cast the cheesy AMF do not apply spells like Wall of Force, which is absolutely not going to stop him from suffocating.

Now you just need a reason to get him into the room, shouldn't be hard...

[Eldariel]

And reasons not to divine the arrival location too.

[Yukitsu]

Yeah this could be a very bad idea. With a determined DM you will get a trap that consists of a room containing a Simulacrum of an appropriate deity that uses Life And Death on you or something like that.

This is why eschew materials is a broken feat.

[Aquillion]

This is why eschew materials is a broken feat.Actually... while I mentioned Life and Death myself, a sufficiently determined Batman wizard can negate it. All they have to do is strike first, making an ice simulacrum of the highest Divine Rank deity in the setting who has Life and Death with orders to bring them back to life whenever they die. Presto, they're immortal. If they're worried about the original deity objecting, they can make two (or more) ice simulacrums of the highest-divine-rank deity in the setting, then send them to beat the original deity up.

(And they can also kill anyone in the setting they want by asking their pet deity to do it for them. But that's something else.)


Batman wizard teleports into room holding plot-important item/person. Simultaneously three traps go off in the relatively tiny room, one is an antimagic field trap, trapping the wizard, one pumps high DC Con-damage poison into the air, the other is a resetting series of arrow traps that come from tiny holes in the wall.

Batman suffocates, unable to do anything but cast the cheesy AMF do not apply spells like Wall of Force, which is absolutely not going to stop him from suffocating.

Now you just need a reason to get him into the room, shouldn't be hard...One of those 'cheesy AMF do not apply' spells, Invoke Magic, lets you cast others spells. So it wouldn't work.

Even aside from that, a proper Gate-servant preparation (using Gate to set up an extended service with an outsider who will check up on you every so often and arrange to bring you back every time you die) will negate that. You'll cost them money (depending on how they worded the extended service contract), but you won't keep them dead.


If you want a less absurdly cheesy way: Before teleporting, use Mass Teleport to send a rogue with a Telepathic Bond first to check for traps, and have them send you back an OK before you go yourself.

[shadow_archmagi]

Why not just send the telepathic Bond?

[Aquillion]

Why not just send the telepathic Bond?Because if you had a telepathic Bond, you could just order him to solve problems for you in the first place; you wouldn't have to be an adventurer at all. :smallamused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Batman wizard teleports into room holding plot-important item/person. Simultaneously three traps go off in the relatively tiny room, one is an antimagic field trap, trapping the wizard, one pumps high DC Con-damage poison into the air, the other is a resetting series of arrow traps that come from tiny holes in the wall.

Batman suffocates, unable to do anything but cast the cheesy AMF do not apply spells like Wall of Force, which is absolutely not going to stop him from suffocating.

Now you just need a reason to get him into the room, shouldn't be hard...

You see, this is what I don't like. This isn't Challenging your PC's. This is a variation on Rocks Fall, You Die. I don't want to use DM Fiat to make them enter an unwinnable position. That's cheating. I want them to be challenged, engaged, and at the end, go 'Whew... that was the toughest encounter I've ever had... but damn, that was fun".

[olentu]

Actually... while I mentioned Life and Death myself, a sufficiently determined Batman wizard can negate it. All they have to do is strike first, making an ice simulacrum of the highest Divine Rank deity in the setting who has Life and Death with orders to bring them back to life whenever they die. Presto, they're immortal. If they're worried about the original deity objecting, they can make two (or more) ice simulacrums of the highest-divine-rank deity in the setting, then send them to beat the original deity up.

I was assuming that the guy who wanted you dead was higher level then you and since Simulacrum is limited by caster level they will always be able to get a better (higher rank) deity and more of them then the PC.

[TempusCCK]

Batman has no problem bending the rules to break your game, I see no reason why you shouldn't throw a very fatal trap at him. Besides, you could easily design it to not be entirely fatal, just make batman useless and able to be killed, relying on the other members of the party to save him...

[Inyssius Tor]

Batman has no problem bending the rules to break your game, I see no reason why you shouldn't throw a very fatal trap at him.

Because that is not fun for anyone except possibly the DM, and probably not even him. He wants to challenge the party (and the wizard), not fiat any of them into uselessness.

[TempusCCK]

Not true, as a player, if I had a party member totally overshadowing me, I would thouroughly enjoying a situation where I have to save his powergaming rear.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not true, as a player, if I had a party member totally overshadowing me, I would thouroughly enjoying a situation where I have to save his powergaming rear.

And that is exactly what Joker Bard is designed to do.

Suddenly he has discovered that he has falsely prepared for the encounter, the opponents are specifically ones that his current spell list is poorly equipped to handle, although he still has some useful things to do.

Enter the rest of the party, who are not particularly any more disadvantaged in this situation than in any other, who finally has a chance to do something other than make coffee.

[monty]

Why not just send the telepathic Bond?

A British spy with psion levels? Of course!

[TempusCCK]

And that is exactly what Joker Bard is designed to do.

Suddenly he has discovered that he has falsely prepared for the encounter, the opponents are specifically ones that his current spell list is poorly equipped to handle, although he still has some useful things to do.

Enter the rest of the party, who are not particularly any more disadvantaged in this situation than in any other, who finally has a chance to do something other than make coffee.

Like some others have pointed out before, there's some general purpose stuff that Batman will always have that will have him prepared for every encounter. I say jack up the danger for the batman, target HIS weak save for once.

[Aquillion]

And that is exactly what Joker Bard is designed to do.

Suddenly he has discovered that he has falsely prepared for the encounter, the opponents are specifically ones that his current spell list is poorly equipped to handle, although he still has some useful things to do.

Enter the rest of the party, who are not particularly any more disadvantaged in this situation than in any other, who finally has a chance to do something other than make coffee.But I still think you're overestimating the importance of using scrying for preparation. Many Batman-style wizards don't actually do that at all; it has a lot of dangers and limitations even if the DM isn't actively trying to use it against you (it's not that hard to run into something outside of what you scryed.)

What I'm saying is, at best, you might manage to reduce the wizard from preparing ten different 'instantly win this situation' spells, down to, say, five or six 'instantly win this situation' spells. But if that's all you've got, the wizard is still going to win.

If you have the Joker actively there trying to dispel / negate the wizard's spells, then you've turned the fight into Wizard vs. Joker, with everyone else left swarming the Joker while the wizard keeps him busy, or fighting the Joker's mooks. That isn't any different than the usual situation when the party fights a high-level caster.


Not true, as a player, if I had a party member totally overshadowing me, I would thouroughly enjoying a situation where I have to save his powergaming rear.
Really? I wouldn't, not in the situation you describe. It's not my character doing anything; it's the DM using his DM-hammer to decide what happens. I would rather everyone sit down outside the game, talk about what's happening, and decide whether it's a problem, and if it is, whether to nerf the caster, buff everyone else, or do something else to deal with it.

When your party is radically different in optimization-levels, and it's obvious it's interfering with people's fun, the correct thing to do is to take the players aside and talk to them honestly about it, asking them how they feel, what they want to do about it, and so on. It's an OOC problem. It is not something you should try to address with in-character solutions like this.

Creating situations to challenge powerful characters can be fun, but these descriptions all seem to end with "and then the caster learns the error of his ways and doesn't get out of line again for fear of the DM-hammer." That's silly. If you want a player to stop doing something in particular, the solution is not to send a DM-grudgemonster after him; the solution is to take him aside and say 'hey, stop doing that' as directly and politely as possible.

Most players who overshadow the rest of the party don't even realize they're doing it; in my experience, if you talk to them, the vast majority of the time they'll tone it down and the issue will go away. If they flat-out refuse after it's pointed out, and everyone else agrees that it's hurting the game, you should probably consider whether or not you want to be playing with them anyway.

You can write an encounter around one character's weaknesses once or twice, sure, to spice things up. But doing it over and over again or writing the entire campaign's main villain against them is going to get old fast.

[ericgrau]

Neither auto-win nor auto-lose is fun. The solution is to stop people from using auto-win cheese, out of game, and to slap the guy who suggests you retaliate with auto-lose just 'cuz it's fair game.

Legend lore tells you legends about high level characters. Given the prevalence of news and his own detective skills, the comic book batman wouldn't find out anything he didn't know already. Heck, average Joe citizen might know most of such things about the famous Joker.

As for creating the Joker, check out the Wikipedia article and scroll down to "Powers and abilities."

[Thurbane]

You're not going to be able to build a trap capable of killing an optimized Batman Wizard. It simply cannot be done. However, you can make things... exceedingly annoying for him, which is exactly what this build is designed to do.
Antimagic Field trap combined with LOTS of poison?

[Epic_Wizard]

Antimagic Field trap combined with LOTS of poison?

I just meant there is something on the ceiling that he can't directly scry that proceeds to drops on him/towards him/generally make his day not very fun.

Heck a simple falling ceiling trap but with about 10 minutes of time, a teleport block, and the ceiling having an anti-magic field in a 1 inch radius around it. The Wizard can't just blast a hole or teleport them out so the rest of the party is forced to save his bacon.

Wall of force? Sure, that buys you a few rounds until someone comes along and gets the trap moving again. For maximum "oh ****" value you should have this happen a few rounds after the ceiling runs into the wall and stops moving. Then call for spot checks to see who notices the ceiling is coming down again...

Save and die is not required to challenge a power gamer. You just need to be sneakier than they are.

(as for the "you didn't look up" bit, I say that it is perfectly viable to put someone in a tough spot because they didn't check something. DM's do it all the time when the players forget to make a spot/listen/search/DD check)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Antimagic Field trap combined with LOTS of poison?

Nah, that's the 'brute force' approach. I prefer something with a little more... finesse.

Ironically, one of the things best able to threaten a Batman Wizard is... oozes. Immune to most of the things they normally memorize, and generally weak vs blasting, which no self-respecting Batman Wizard would ever bother packing unless he specifically knew he was going to need it.

[Epic_Wizard]

Nah, that's the 'brute force' approach. I prefer something with a little more... finesse.

Ironically, one of the things best able to threaten a Batman Wizard is... oozes. Immune to most of the things they normally memorize, and generally weak vs blasting, which no self-respecting Batman Wizard would ever bother packing unless he specifically knew he was going to need it.

If Batman isn't packing at least some blasting then he isn't being creative enough in it's use. Sure using the stuff directly on a number of opponents can be problematic but there are plenty of more subtle ways to use "blasting" magic.

Forest? Lightning Bolt into the nearest tree's base along with any along that line and see where they land. Cavern? Sonic Fireball on the ceiling and watch your opponent go crunch under a sudden rock fall. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah that's fun stuff. Even better when your DM is as creative as you are with spell effects and you get some unexpected results :smallwink:

Actually it just occurred to me...

Letting a bunch of oozes lose in a Jello factory would be right up the joker's alley :amused:

[Mercenary Pen]

Actually it just occurred to me...

Letting a bunch of oozes with class levels loose in a Jello factory would be right up the joker's alley :amused:

Fixed it for you...

Only thing more fun than oozes in a jelly factory (excuse me, I'm British), would be oozes spamming acid spells, stunning fists, bard songs and barbarian rages in a Jelly factory- just to really make certain the batman can't work out what's going to happen next...

[monty]

Fixed it for you...

Only thing more fun than oozes in a jelly factory (excuse me, I'm British), would be oozes spamming acid spells, stunning fists, bard songs and barbarian rages in a Jelly factory- just to really make certain the batman can't work out what's going to happen next...

No Int score = no class levels.

A bunch of fiendish oozes with class levels, on the other hand...

[D_Lord]

Love this so much. May the batman wizards throw their spells per day out the window, in a fit of madness. Beware of of very real world violent players.

[Aquillion]

Ironically, one of the things best able to threaten a Batman Wizard is... oozes. Immune to most of the things they normally memorize, and generally weak vs blasting, which no self-respecting Batman Wizard would ever bother packing unless he specifically knew he was going to need it.Not really. The thing is, oozes might be immune to some of the Batman Wizard's tricks... but they suck even more for everyone else. Immune to precision damage + blindsight means most rogues can do exactly nothing. Trip is useless and grappling is worse than useless. On most -- including all the highest-level ones -- slashing and piercing weapons are also worse than useless, which makes archers ineffective. Anything focused on criticals is no good. Eats weapons and armor, so most meleers will be glad to step back and let casters handle it anyway.

Meanwhile, they have sucky touch AC and no SR, so Enervation deals with them quite handily and Ray of Enfeeblement can make them suck. Both of those are hugely popular. They have sucky will saves, so even with their immunity to mind-affecting and visual spells, Slow will handle them (and is especially crippling with their already-low movement -- at that point you can pelt them to death with rocks); this also means that Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation can be freely used for blasting (or whatever else you want), with little chance that they'll make the save.

Even their low reflex save can be used against them -- as long as the caster's CL makes it big enough, Resilient Sphere can take one out of the fight until everything else has been dealt with and the whole party is lined up/buffed to beat it. Web and Grease technically work if you interpret the rules mechanically; though many DMs will probably just rule that the ooze eats through webs and ignores the important parts of Grease, there are more than enough other options to make up for it.

And choosing an ooze or whatever that can take class levels means it has at least 1 int, which means it's now vulnerable to mind-affecting spells... and still has a will-save penalty. Good luck with that.

Buffs and summons still work at full strength, at last aside from the fact that most of the people you'd usually buff are probably mostly ineffective (summons are particularly nice because it means that someone else is eating all the nasty ooze effects instead of your fighter's equipment.) Most terrain-alteration spells work pretty well, too, as long as they can't be climbed over or eaten through.

And on top of all that, even the most anti-Blasting batman wizard is going to carry an offensive wand or two, just in case. They're fairly cheap, and you never know when you might want to set something on fire or whatever from very far away, or just do a bunch of ranged damage at your leisure without wasting spell slots.

Casters -- even ones not focused on blasting -- are easily the best class for handling oozes, hands down. The fact that their biggest weakness (blasting) is something that isn't at the top of your typical Batman-wizard's priorities doesn't mean much when it's something that the rest of the party doesn't have access to at all.

[Mercenary Pen]

Even more fun would be living spells in a magic item factory...

With none of them emulating anything below a level 7 spell...

Living greater dispel magic, living prismatic sphere, living meteor swarm, living energy drain...

Add in crazy magic items to suit and even a Batman wizard is going to be having severe difficulties...

[Aquillion]

Even more fun would be living spells in a magic item factory...

With none of them emulating anything below a level 7 spell...

Living greater dispel magic, living prismatic sphere, living meteor swarm, living energy drain...

Add in crazy magic items to suit and even a Batman wizard is going to be having severe difficulties...But the problem with that is, like I said... everyone else is going to be having even more severe difficulties. Batman has a wide variety of options and can adapt to unexpected situations, that's the whole point. Most other classes and builds can't, not to nearly the same extent.

I mean, what does the rest of the party do about the Living Energy Drain? They can't safely engage it in melee. It's immune to precision damage and has blindsight. An archer can at least do some damage, but without precision damage it can be hard to get much out of archery, and aside from that only the spellcasters are going to be any help.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And I think we've pretty much defined the problem with the Batman Wizard. He can prepare for any situation. Which is why the Joker Bard is so good at denying him previous knowledge of what he's doing. However, that seems to be only part of the equation. In reducing the power of the Batman Wizard, we need to also be able to entertain the rest of the party.

[Epic_Wizard]

If you want to really annoy a Batman Wizard then just silence the whole bloody place and put a few out of the way minions, magical traps, or constructs with orders to prepare an action to shoot Batman whenever he even looks like he might be thinking about casting a spell. If he wants to use spells with Verbal components then he has to use Silenced spells which ups the Concentration check to avoid losing the spell. Once Batman is out of Silent Spelled stuff he's up a creek.

The rest of the party can have fun with whatever you drop in there and Batman has to resort to (probably) low power Magic Items that are use activated (no command words in a silence spell)

[bobspldbckwrds]

i like it, and i might just use it.

for all the naysayers who are crying out "but batman can beat him", being a dm isnt about winning, and anyone who thinks so is obviously a terrible dm.


this build make a great foil for any batman wizard, and would encourage a lot of good roleplay

[toddex]

If this is all RP then just slap a few divine ranks on him and have him create joker world... done deal.

[Tharivol123]

There's plenty of other ways to mess with Batman wizard and the party as well. Joker could very easily turn the party against one another through various means. Like the OP was saying, Bard Joker doesn't need to face Batman head on.
-Perhaps abduct someone important to each party member, make them chose who to save (Dark Knight anyone?), and enjoy watching them fight over what to do from a few feet away.
-Manipulate the rogue into backstabbing the cleric or paladin. Even better yet, steal one of Batman's spell books.
-Convince the local church of Pelor that the party is evil, while convincing the church of Vecna that they're there to steal one of their artifacts, forcing the party to do battle with both ends of the good/evil divide.
-Gain favor with a local king and use him/his army to make life difficult for the party
-Use bardic performance to tell the legend of the "evil party," manipulate other bards into believing that story as the true one, and let it spread throughout.
-My favorite idea of all: DMPC. Right there in the party, plotting their downfall the entire time. Everyone thinks he is loyal and a contributing member of the party, but when he gets alone time...

[Yukitsu]

-Manipulate the rogue into backstabbing the cleric or paladin. Even better yet, steal one of Batman's spell books.

While the others all have fairly easily exploitable flaws, they are at least somewhat a challenge and interesting. This on the other hand is a bad idea all around. Trying to pit the party against itself is just going to make for bad blood. Having an NPC or DMPC rogue would be preferable.

The DMPC one has the funniest flaw, because my party tends to hover a proverbial knife between the DMPC shoulders whenever we get one, to the point that our DM has stopped making them relevant at all. We have twitchy trigger fingers.

[Tharivol123]

The DMPC one has the funniest flaw, because my party tends to hover a proverbial knife between the DMPC shoulders whenever we get one, to the point that our DM has stopped making them relevant at all. We have twitchy trigger fingers.

That is why you spend so much time gaining their trust. We had a Wizard DMPC in our group a few years ago. He was a reliable asset to the party and got us out of a few jams. It wasn't until about a year in game that we noticed strange behavior from him (after obtaining a magical item). Another month after that our cleric got suspicious and used detect evil...followed immediately by the Wizard teleporting away, with most of our magical items.
Of course, I also remember the time we killed a DMPC (a different DM) in the second gaming session because none of us trusted him, so I see your point.

[magic9mushroom]

You're not going to be able to build a trap capable of killing an optimized Batman Wizard. It simply cannot be done. However, you can make things... exceedingly annoying for him, which is exactly what this build is designed to do.

Trap. The. Soul.

[Temp.]

While the others all have fairly easily exploitable flaws, they are at least somewhat a challenge and interesting. This on the other hand is a bad idea all around. Trying to pit the party against itself is just going to make for bad blood. Having an NPC or DMPC rogue would be preferable.

Man, you're crazy. The times when players form smaller competing groups -- all wrestling with each other to reach individual goals -- are the best times in D&D. Or any RPG.

Friend Computer would agree.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Trap. The. Soul.
Has to be cast on a dead Batman Wizard. First you have to kill him...

Also, not his style. He's not trying to kill Batman, he's trying to have fun with him. Maybe Trap the Soul of someone the Batman Wizard cares about... if such a person exists.

He's very good at exploiting weaknesses. The biggest weakness of the typical munchkin "I don't care about anything" character is Treasure-Lust. Catch wind of a powerful artifact somewhere, and the Batman Wizard is THERE...

Right in the middle of a Dimension Locked Fun House Of DOOM...

[magic9mushroom]

Has to be cast on a dead Batman Wizard. First you have to kill him...

Also, not his style. He's not trying to kill Batman, he's trying to have fun with him. Maybe Trap the Soul of someone the Batman Wizard cares about... if such a person exists.

He's very good at exploiting weaknesses. The biggest weakness of the typical munchkin "I don't care about anything" character is Treasure-Lust. Catch wind of a powerful artifact somewhere, and the Batman Wizard is THERE...

Right in the middle of a Dimension Locked Fun House Of DOOM...

No. You're thinking of Soul Bind.

I'm talking about the spell that can kill someone with no chance of res bar godly intervention, no save, and no SR. Which you then cast on his spellbook. Or on a door handle inside an AMF.

[Yukitsu]

You mean the spell that requires the caster actually take it into his possession to take effect, that equivalently requires that at the level that it's available, he didn't permanency arcane sight via a scroll at some point in his career that also happens to cost 1000xhit dice of the wizard?

To note, opening a door doesn't constitute accepting the doorknob nor does it constitute picking it up.

[magic9mushroom]

You mean the spell that requires the caster actually take it into his possession to take effect, that equivalently requires that at the level that it's available, he didn't permanency arcane sight via a scroll at some point in his career that also happens to cost 1000xhit dice of the wizard?

To note, opening a door doesn't constitute accepting the doorknob nor does it constitute picking it up.

Yes it does, though if you wanted to get picky then it's not like the key couldn't be done either. And didn't you notice that I said AMF? Have the Field such that the key is in it but the door isn't. Batman picks it up, moves out of the Field, dies.

[Tharivol123]

He's very good at exploiting weaknesses. The biggest weakness of the typical munchkin "I don't care about anything" character is Treasure-Lust. Catch wind of a powerful artifact somewhere, and the Batman Wizard is THERE...

Right in the middle of a Dimension Locked Fun House Of DOOM...

Not necessarily the only way. If he is a half-way decent party member he'll go somewhere the party needs to. Use another party member's exploitation as the initial hook. Make it appear as though he is meant to be the Cleric's nemesis, but after the wizard gets humiliated the first time it all becomes clear. Remember, Joker attacked Batman by manipulating Harvey Dent in a way that made Batman feel helpless to stop it. You can do the same here. The first hook is someone else in the party, the rest of the hooks are "I cannot fail again."

As for the fun house of doom: Tomb of Horrors, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and a thread that should still be around here are great sources of inspiration (it was called something like "Greatest DM traps of all time," IIRC). None of them in there were the "rocks fall everyone dies" type, but they did mess with player's minds.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No. You're thinking of Soul Bind.

I'm talking about the spell that can kill someone with no chance of res bar godly intervention, no save, and no SR. Which you then cast on his spellbook. Or on a door handle inside an AMF.

I have never heard of such a spell, nor would I use it. I want something less arbitrary than "Rocks Fall, You Die".

The Joker Bard is the GM's BBEG. He's not supposed to KILL Batman Wizard... he's supposed to entertain the players.


As for the fun house of doom: Tomb of Horrors, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and a thread that should still be around here are great sources of inspiration (it was called something like "Greatest DM traps of all time," IIRC). None of them in there were the "rocks fall everyone dies" type, but they did mess with player's minds. Yes, yes, a thousand times YES. FINALLY, someone gets it.

Joker Bard doesn't go "I r ub4r, i pwn j00 n00bz". He plays mind-games with the party, until they trust nothing. Like setting up, for the Paladin in the party, the same situation Joker did by putting Hostages in outfits normally reserved for his henchmen. Kill the hostages, which are all Good, and FALL so hard you leave skid marks on the alignment chart.

[Tharivol123]

My usual DM has a twisted sense of humor like this and loved putting us in win with consequences/lose majorly situations. I'll see if he has any ideas this weekend and let you know what he comes up with.
One trap I remember fairly well though:
A 20x20 room, 61ft high ceiling (this is important) with spikes, doors on the north and south walls (enter from north). The room is full of triggers for a reverse gravity trap.
The trick: The door on the south wall: an ooze disguised as a door.
The real door out: trap door built into the ceiling that blends in with the spikes.

They'll be so busy trying to disable the "trap" that they won't be checking for the door on the ceiling (despite the fact that the obvious trap didn't kill them).

[magic9mushroom]

I have never heard of such a spell, nor would I use it. I want something less arbitrary than "Rocks Fall, You Die".

The Joker Bard is the GM's BBEG. He's not supposed to KILL Batman Wizard... he's supposed to entertain the players.

Yes, yes, a thousand times YES. FINALLY, someone gets it.

Joker Bard doesn't go "I r ub4r, i pwn j00 n00bz". He plays mind-games with the party, until they trust nothing. Like setting up, for the Paladin in the party, the same situation Joker did by putting Hostages in outfits normally reserved for his henchmen. Kill the hostages, which are all Good, and FALL so hard you leave skid marks on the alignment chart.

Agreed. I'm not saying you should use TtS. Surprised you haven't heard of it though, seeing as it's in the PHB.




Trap the Soul Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.

Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways.

Spell Completion: First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.

Trigger Object: The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.

Material Component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

Focus (Trigger Object Only): If the trigger object method is used, a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.





What I was objecting to was that you said that a Batman Wizard couldn't be killed. Well, this is my "NO" button. :smallcool:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Agreed. I'm not saying you should use TtS. Surprised you haven't heard of it though, seeing as it's in the PHB.




Trap the Soul Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.

Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways.

Spell Completion: First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.

Trigger Object: The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.

Material Component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

Focus (Trigger Object Only): If the trigger object method is used, a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.





What I was objecting to was that you said that a Batman Wizard couldn't be killed. Well, this is my "NO" button. :smallcool:

The only problem is that he'd never fall for it. Greater Prying Eyes sees to this. So does Arcane Sight, Greater. Furthermore, it HAS to be to be a gem, you cannot arbitrarily make it anything, it must be a gem. And any Batman Wizard is going to be very wary when identifying ANY gems lying around either in an AMF or radiating strong magic.

FURTHERMORE, any of the other players can simply destroy the gem after they see it suck up the Wizard, and release him.

[Aquillion]

No, the trigger object is separate from the gem.

However, if it is up, Foresight bugs out the instant before the wizard reaches for or accepts the trigger object, spoiling the trap. Arcane Sight, which can be made permanent, allows an easy spellcraft to reveal that a high-level conjuration is enchanting the trigger object (which doesn't leave much room for what it could be.) They just have to look at the object to get that roll.

And, of course, Greater Arcane Sight will instantly reveal the specific spell that the object is enchanted with, if the wizard grows suspicious... though, as noted, a permanent regular Arcane Sight will usually be enough, because there are so few things that would make the trigger object hold a high-level Conjuration aura.

Also note that this requires knowing the wizard's real name in advance. Wizards who go by a pseudonym or who otherwise conceal their 'true' name for whatever reason are completely immune to that application of Trap The Soul, as well as several other unpleasant effects (this applies to anyone, of course, not just wizards.)

[magic9mushroom]

The only problem is that he'd never fall for it. Greater Prying Eyes sees to this. So does Arcane Sight, Greater. Furthermore, it HAS to be to be a gem, you cannot arbitrarily make it anything, it must be a gem. And any Batman Wizard is going to be very wary when identifying ANY gems lying around either in an AMF or radiating strong magic.

FURTHERMORE, any of the other players can simply destroy the gem after they see it suck up the Wizard, and release him.

No. Gem =/= trigger object. The trigger object can be anything. When he picks up the trigger object, his soul is transferred to the gem. Which won't be anywhere that the PCs can get at.

Perfect way to do it: Have an amulet that requires magic to open, with the word engraved on the inside. The Wizard can't open it in the AMF, so he'll take it out, upon which he disappears into the gem (held by the BBEG) and is never seen again. Can't Disjunction the AMF because this all takes place in the Outlands in a region where 9th level spells don't work.

EDIT: Partially ninjaed. Foresight and Arcane Sight are suppressed by AMF. Foresight wouldn't work anyway because you're doing it in a region with no 9th level spells. Pay a cleric to Commune to get the wizard's name.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No. Gem =/= trigger object. The trigger object can be anything. When he picks up the trigger object, his soul is transferred to the gem. Which won't be anywhere that the PCs can get at.

Perfect way to do it: Have an amulet that requires magic to open, with the word engraved on the inside. The Wizard can't open it in the AMF, so he'll take it out, upon which he disappears into the gem (held by the BBEG) and is never seen again. Can't Disjunction the AMF because this all takes place in the Outlands in a region where 9th level spells don't work.

EDIT: Partially ninjaed.

1) no 9th level spells is completely arbitrary. Any Batman Wizard will either have his 9th level spells available to him (including Foresight), or just won't play.

2) No wizard, regardless of tendencies, is going to willingly enter an AMF. Period.

3) Anything magically sealed so that it requires magic to open is not going to be magically locked, and can be opened by anyone in an AMF.

[Saintjebus]

1) no 9th level spells is completely arbitrary. Any Batman Wizard will either have his 9th level spells available to him (including Foresight), or just won't play.

It's not arbitrary, the Outlands, specifically, can block out 9th level spells. That's just the outer parts of it. Closer in, you can cut off even lower level spells.


1)
2) No wizard, regardless of tendencies, is going to willingly enter an AMF. Period.

Unless the Joker gives the wizard a compelling reason, i.e., very powerful artifact, person captive that Batman is attached to, etc.


1)
3) Anything magically sealed so that it requires magic to open is not going to be magically locked, and can be opened by anyone in an AMF.

You are correct. Anything magically locked in an AMF will no longer be magically locked. However, if you are in an area that locks out 9th level spells, but not 8th level spells, it would be fine.

[magic9mushroom]

1) no 9th level spells is completely arbitrary. Any Batman Wizard will either have his 9th level spells available to him (including Foresight), or just won't play.

2) No wizard, regardless of tendencies, is going to willingly enter an AMF. Period.

3) Anything magically sealed so that it requires magic to open is not going to be magically locked, and can be opened by anyone in an AMF.

1) Huh? Not arbitrary at all. Straight from the DMG description of the Outlands. Part of the normal D&D cosmology, and the plane with the biggest metropolis in the multiverse. If he doesn't want to go there, then that's fine, but he won't be able to get to whatever the Joker's holding.

2) True. But he won't have that much choice.

3) Not necessarily. Suppose the lock only opens from the inside?

EDIT: Partially ninjaed again.

[Aquillion]

No. Gem =/= trigger object. The trigger object can be anything. When he picks up the trigger object, his soul is transferred to the gem. Which won't be anywhere that the PCs can get at.

Perfect way to do it: Have an amulet that requires magic to open, with the word engraved on the inside. The Wizard can't open it in the AMF, so he'll take it out, upon which he disappears into the gem (held by the BBEG) and is never seen again. Can't Disjunction the AMF because this all takes place in the Outlands in a region where 9th level spells don't work.

EDIT: Partially ninjaed.Arcane Sight will still see the amulet's highly unusual high-level conjuration aura, at which point the wizard is likely to Greater Dispel Magic it before trying anything else. If it's just some really weird magic item with a conjuration aura, it'll only be suppressed; if it's Trap the Soul, it will be dispelled and gone (ruining the high-level gemstone that their adversary used as a spell component in the process, incidentally.) That might sound like excessive paranoia, but we're talking about a wizard with other high-level caster enemies willing to spend a large amount of money and effort to use Trap the Soul against them specifically... And this still requires knowing the wizard's true name, which isn't something you can necessarily assume for your typical BBEG.

Of course, if we can get back on track here, the real issue in this case isn't whether or not the wizard can beat Trap the Soul... because Trap the Soul is, of course, another high-level wizard spell, so at this point we're not talking about Batman vs. the Joker, we're talking about Batman vs. Another Batman. Obviously, if you want to turn the game into nothing but convoluted high-level duels between casters, Batman can be either beaten or forced to a draw by another Batman... but that doesn't prove anything.


EDIT: Partially ninjaed. Foresight and Arcane Sight are suppressed by AMF. Foresight wouldn't work anyway because you're doing it in a region with no 9th level spells. Pay a cleric to Commune to get the wizard's name.If the wizard finds the object outside of an AMF, they'll see it immediately. If the object is inside an AMF when the wizard picks it up (the action that triggers the spell), then it will not instantly go off when they walk out of the AMF -- unfortunately, that is how magic works, and if you ignore the exact wording of your spells then they will not behave the way you expect.

A wizard who sees an object he wants in an AMF will (of course) ask someone else to get it for him anyway, at which point its suspicious aura will appear the instant that person carries it out. But if he did step in and pick it up himself, it still would not go off at any point -- not when he picks it up (it's suppressed), not when he carries it out (simply carrying it is not a trigger), and not when he glances at it, then drops, dispels, or identifies it. He would have to manually drop it, then pick it up again while outside an AMF for the effect to trigger.

And unless the wizard's name is "Yes" or "No", Commune is not going to help you:

You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no.

[Saintjebus]

I don't have books nearby, so I can't check, but wouldn't the lowly Nystul's magic aura be useful? Either A. Hide the amulet's aura, or B. Throw auras on everything they have found up to this point. At a certain point, Batman would either run out of Dispels, Greater Arcane sight, or just have gotten irritated with all the fakes that he just doesn't bother anymore.

[magic9mushroom]

Arcane Sight will still see the amulet's highly unusual high-level conjuration aura, at which point the wizard is likely to Greater Dispel Magic it before trying anything else. If it's just some really weird magic item with a conjuration aura, it'll only be suppressed; if it's Trap the Soul, it will be dispelled and gone (ruining the high-level gemstone that their adversary used as a spell component in the process, incidentally.) That might sound like excessive paranoia, but we're talking about a wizard with other high-level caster enemies willing to spend a large amount of money and effort to use Trap the Soul against them specifically... And this still requires knowing the wizard's true name, which isn't something you can necessarily assume for your typical BBEG.

Of course, if we can get back on track here, the real issue in this case isn't whether or not the wizard can beat Trap the Soul... because Trap the Soul is, of course, another high-level wizard spell, so at this point we're not talking about Batman vs. the Joker, we're talking about Batman vs. Another Batman. Obviously, if you want to turn the game into nothing but convoluted high-level duels between casters, Batman can be either beaten or forced to a draw by another Batman... but that doesn't prove anything.

Arcane Sight: Antimagic Field. No.

Greater Dispel Magic: Antimagic Field. No.

Disjunction on AMF: Outlands. No.

True name: Diplomance cleric to cast Commune. Done.

No TtS: Sublime Chord, or Diplomance someone in Sigil, which has no limits on what you can buy (biggest city in the Planes). Done.

EDIT: Ok, so Commune won't give you it. Legend Lore or Contact Other Plane then. Or just make a Bardic Knowledge check.

[Aquillion]

Also. If you're going to use the Outlands, there's no need to do anything this complicated. The Joker can be a level 1 commoner, and operate in the innermost ring of the Outlands, where no magic operates at all. Simple enough. That's a place Batman can't go, no. If you can somehow find a wizard stupid enough to enter the outlands, you may as well convince him to go to the innermost parts of the outlands, then hit him on the head with a club and take his stuff.

[magic9mushroom]

Also. If you're going to use the Outlands, there's no need to do anything this complicated. The Joker can be a level 1 commoner, and operate in the innermost ring of the Outlands, where no magic operates at all. Simple enough. That's a place Batman can't go, no. If you can somehow find a wizard stupid enough to enter the outlands, you may as well convince him to go to the innermost parts of the outlands, then hit him on the head with a club and take his stuff.

*explodes in a puff of logic*

Ok, I'm a bit like Nale there.

[Aquillion]

A Magic Aura will work, but you still have the problem of finding the wizard's true name (assuming it isn't "Yes" or "No", which are the sorts of questions Commune is limited to), ensuring that the wizard picks up the object in question, and so on.

Also! I have a question. Is trapping a caster with a Trap the Soul spell a magical effect that would impede his movement? That is, can he walk or teleport out of the gem you put him in? I assure you, I ask this in all seriousness. What? Why? Oh, no reason... :smallbiggrin:

[Graymayre]

I didn't read the replies, so here's hoping someone didn't already answer this.

"The Joker" should implement the leadership feat.

Using the lackeys, he can create a net of control around many of the situations he may create. Not to mention, it would net him a steady flow of income through which he can commit his nefarious (or righteous) deeds.

[Yukitsu]

Yes it does, though if you wanted to get picky then it's not like the key couldn't be done either. And didn't you notice that I said AMF? Have the Field such that the key is in it but the door isn't. Batman picks it up, moves out of the Field, dies.

He isn't accepting it or picking it up when exiting the field. He has already picked it up and accepted it when the powers of the spell were null. If it's already in his hand when he leaves, the spell has no affect, rules as written, precisely to prevent that sort of nonsense.

[magic9mushroom]

A Magic Aura will work, but you still have the problem of finding the wizard's true name (assuming it isn't "Yes" or "No", which are the sorts of questions Commune is limited to), ensuring that the wizard picks up the object in question, and so on.

Also! I have a question. Is trapping a caster with a Trap the Soul spell a magical effect that would impede his movement? That is, can he walk or teleport out of the gem you put him in? I assure you, I ask this in all seriousness. What? Why? Oh, no reason... :smallbiggrin:

I doubt Freedom of Movement would work, if that's what you're suggesting. That would be retarded. Besides, it flat out says that it holds them indefinitely.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I didn't read the replies, so here's hoping someone didn't already answer this.

"The Joker" should implement the leadership feat.

Using the lackeys, he can create a net of control around many of the situations he may create. Not to mention, it would net him a steady flow of income through which he can commit his nefarious (or righteous) deeds.

Actually, the Joker Bard is a bit more devious than that...

You see, Joker Bard has no need for the Leadership feat. The Joker Bard has a +60ish to Bluff when he really wants it (via Glibness), but even that is largely unnecessary, because all he has to do is start performing, then use a Mass Suggestion, and everyone listening to him will do pretty much whatever he wants anyways.

He doesn't have followers via Leadership Feat, he has people who do what he wants them to do despite the fact that they aren't his followers, because he's that good at getting others to do his dirty work for him.

[Graymayre]

Actually, the Joker Bard is a bit more devious than that...

You see, Joker Bard has no need for the Leadership feat. The Joker Bard has a +60ish to Bluff when he really wants it (via Glibness), but even that is largely unnecessary, because all he has to do is start performing, then use a Mass Suggestion, and everyone listening to him will do pretty much whatever he wants anyways.

He doesn't have followers via Leadership Feat, he has people who do what he wants them to do despite the fact that they aren't his followers, because he's that good at getting others to do his dirty work for him.

Yes, but if he did both... Than he'd have twice the followers! :smallsmile:

[Sendal]

I'm interested by this "Trap the soul" spell. If you could somehow persuade Batman to pick it up, and whisk his soul away to the Jokers back pocket, there is a possible interpretation of one of the spells lesser side effects that could allow major mind screwing.

possible ways of making it work might be a shaped AMF that has a 1 inch dent arround the key, or somehow manage to enchant an object he would never suspect enough to cast detect X spell (like the artifact hes getting as a reward for something from the diplomacised king)


Originally Posted by magic9mushroom
Agreed. I'm not saying you should use TtS. Surprised you haven't heard of it though, seeing as it's in the PHB.




Trap the Soul Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.

Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways.

Spell Completion: First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.

Trigger Object: The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.

Material Component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

Focus (Trigger Object Only): If the trigger object method is used, a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.

If I remember correctly, batman lives in his own pocket plane. And hes certainly a powerful individual.

My sugestion for a request might be to assasinate respected figure X in full view of the public, as soon as possible. Or just perform any particular embarasing/demeaning act on the high street in town.


I think this is great because it shows Batman he could have been killed, if joker was so enclined, but instead proceeds with the mind screw.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, but if he did both... Than he'd have twice the followers! :smallsmile:

It's irrelevant and dangerous for him to have Followers, as opposed to Dupes.

You see, Followers follow a specific person, and generally know who that person is. Dupes don't. Joker Bard is, by virtue of some racial feats and class abilities, effectively immune to scrying, so it's almost impossible to lock down his exact position suitable for a 'Port n Pwn'. However, a Minion might know sufficent information to be able to track down the Joker Bard.

Dupes, on the other hand, know what they believe... which only has a passing resemblance to what is actually happening. Thus the party cannot use the Dupes to track him down.

Also, this is not a PC, this is a BBEG. BBEG's don't need the leadership feat to have minions.

Also:


If I remember correctly, batman lives in his own pocket plane. And hes certainly a powerful individual.

My sugestion for a request might be to assasinate respected figure X in full view of the public, as soon as possible. Or just perform any particular embarasing/demeaning act on the high street in town.
Naw, the Joker will send a Missive to the party "Hahaha! I've got Batman's Soul. If you want him back, come get me..."

So they go chase the Joker down and finally find him.

"So glad you could come..." shatters gem, releasing Batman Wizard "Kill your party." then escapes in the ensuing mayhem.

[Sendal]

thats a bit harsh to batman's player though, as it takes him out of the action for a whole dungeon crawl until the last battle.

The beauty of the plan is that it has no long term effect. Batman gets royaly shafted, imediatly forced to perform one time service for his hated enemy, then can continue playing normaly, with newfound purpose.

Also allows for Bad guy monologue whilst batman is right where joker wants him (restrained in an antimagic field bound and gaged)

[monty]

possible ways of making it work might be a shaped AMF that has a 1 inch dent arround the key, or somehow manage to enchant an object he would never suspect enough to cast detect X spell (like the artifact hes getting as a reward for something from the diplomacised king)

AMF doesn't block line of effect, so Arcane Sight will pick it up unless it's actually within the field, in which case it doesn't work anyway. And with Arcane Sight up all the time, it doesn't matter what the item is, because he'll still automatically detect it.

[Sendal]

what if the (diplomacised) king's faithful spymaster hands over a sack of (apparently) nonmagical money? He picked it up in an AM field so he didn't get trapped of course.

There must be a way of getting even a paranoid Batman to pick up Any object without checking it properly.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

what if the (diplomacised) king's faithful spymaster hands over a sack of (apparently) nonmagical money? He picked it up in an AM field so he didn't get trapped of course.

There must be a way of getting even a paranoid Batman to pick up Any object without checking it properly.

Not without a 'rocks fall, you die' approach.

Besides, it is irrelevant, as Joker Bard doesn't have access to 8th level Wizard/Sorc spells like Trap the Soul anyways.

[magic9mushroom]

what if the (diplomacised) king's faithful spymaster hands over a sack of (apparently) nonmagical money? He picked it up in an AM field so he didn't get trapped of course.

There must be a way of getting even a paranoid Batman to pick up Any object without checking it properly.

A note: The spell is keyed, that's why you need his name. The spymaster is in no danger anyway.

How to do it? Nystul's Magic Aura. The problem is that you have to be in the Outlands for it to work, otherwise Batman's Foresight triggers automatically and he doesn't pick it up. And Batman's going to get into full paranoia mode when his Foresight is suppressed, you can count on that. Importantly, Trap the Soul is an 8th level spell, so the region of the Outlands in which TtS works but Foresight doesn't is quite narrow, and will give away to a sufficiently suspicious Batman that he's on the lookout for 8th level spells. He'll realise that TtS is a possibility and double-check everything.

Of course, the player might slip up with some of this. In which case he's utterly screwed.

@OP: Joker has access to scrolls of it I believe. And "rocks fall, you die" is perfectly all right in my book so long as it makes in-game sense. For instance, the party defeats a devilish conspiracy. The devils swear revenge. This happens. Perfectly in-character for the devils.

[monty]

Perfectly in-character for the devils.

Yes, but not for the Joker bard. Lawful Evil and Chaotic Insane are not the same at all.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, but not for the Joker bard. Lawful Evil and Chaotic Insane are not the same at all.

You know even if Joker is found: he stats in a Silenced (multiple casted) room and can cast freely to escape due to Complete Adventure spell that makes Bards immune to silence (Joyful Noise).

So Batman has to summon outside and send monster in due to not very often will he prepare silenced metamagic.

[monty]

You know even if Joker is found: he stats in a Silenced (multiple casted) room and can cast freely to escape due to Complete Adventure spell that makes Bards immune to silence (Joyful Noise).

So Batman has to summon outside and send monster in due to not very often will he prepare silenced metamagic.

At that level, Batman can easily afford a bag full of metamagic rods, so that won't stop him. That is of course assuming he doesn't just use a spell with no verbal component or blast from outside the radius of the Silence.

Also, I'm not entirely sure why you quoted me, since what I said has nothing to do with your post that I can see.

[Sendal]

My use of the spell doesn't cause death. Its more a "rocks fall, you are inconvenienced and embarased"

And scrolls are fair game if you have UMD. The OP said they didn't want a utility belt aproach, but using one scroll to set up a hilarious plan like this seems very Joker to me. Its also possible He could have persuaded someone with high level spells to do him a few favours. This seems to be the point of the build. Its not what the Joker can do, but what he can get other people to do for him.

Foresight is unfortunatly a catch-all safety net. Getting it dispelled off him seems to be a prerequesit for any atempt to catch him out.

[Starbuck_II]

Quoting is fun?

True, but Metamagic rods are move action to grab if Heward's Handy Haversack or more time if bag of holding.

[monty]

True, but Metamagic rods are move action to grab if Heward's Handy Haversack or more time if bag of holding.

Meh. Most cases, Batman only needs a standard action to win. Less with Celerity cheese.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know even if Joker is found: he stats in a Silenced (multiple casted) room and can cast freely to escape due to Complete Adventure spell that makes Bards immune to silence (Joyful Noise).

So Batman has to summon outside and send monster in due to not very often will he prepare silenced metamagic.

No, this is not the Joker Bard's MO

Joker Bard gets NOWHERE NEAR the party. Joker bard uses a combination of Suggestions to make someone believe, with all their heart, that THEY are Joker. That someone goes out to cause hassles, and is taken down by the Party.

They pat themselves on the back, convinced they got the real Joker.

In reality, the Joker was sitting on the sidelines, disguised as Random_Helpless_Victim_23. With the racial feat, they can't tell the difference. He doesn't twig Evil, because the persona he is imitating is Good. It also fools Detect Thoughts, and even Scry. After he is released, gushes effusively at the party, and wanders off... a couple of days later, the party gets a Missive: "What... you honestly think it is that easy to keep me killed? You'll have to do better than that..."

[Advocate]

This entire thread is founded on false premises. Let's start with the other casters (Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Archivist). They're on the same level as the Wizard, so all the posts along the lines of Wizards being better than everyone? Wholly false.

Once we've done that, let's move on to spells. We're discussing Wizards here, not Fighters. As such, spells are broad and not narrow. Seeing that monster x is there means a few spell slots, of many chance to cover x. If it's actually y... well that's what the other 90% of his spells are for. The reason why he is called Batman is because he always has the right tool for the job. He's not going to replace all his spells to cover monster x, he is smart after all. So... he still has the right tool for the job.

Now, let's move on to the concept itself. The only reason Joker becomes a recurring villain is because Batman won't kill him, so he plays with the Revolving Door at the Asylum. The Batman Wizard, and the other PCs have no such compunctions. In fact, annoying the party simply ensures they will all unload on him to kill him 65 times over before his turn comes up. Also, even if they did, the fact they know the authorities cannot possibly contain a high level spellcaster, particularly one of this sort means that even the stick up rear types will take justice upon themselves.

There are many more, but suffice it to say the misconceptions come from a lack of, or flawed understanding of the mechanics of the game.

[Yukitsu]

If I remember correctly, batman lives in his own pocket plane. And hes certainly a powerful individual.

Can guarantee that this refers to outsiders, who actually come from other planes, as opposed to living in one temporarily. Alternatively, you're dealing with the insane paranoid batman that fights by proxy through astral projection. They don't get one without the other, and can technically get the astral projection at level 7. Either way the plan can't work as speculated.

[Tharivol123]

Now, let's move on to the concept itself. The only reason Joker becomes a recurring villain is because Batman won't kill him, so he plays with the Revolving Door at the Asylum. The Batman Wizard, and the other PCs have no such compunctions.

What you're missing is one important factor in the concept the OP described. The Joker isn't there for the party to kill. He's disguised, somewhere else, watching the mayhem as the party takes out a duped impostor. You can't kill what isn't there, and the Joker never puts himself in a situation of real danger. If he ever confronts the party head on, it will be when he wants to on his own terms, probably with an army of mooks standing in front of him.
This isn't about a villain to fight the party, it is about a villain that turns the world (in essence) against the party and makes the heroes look like villains for all the destruction they cause in pursuit of the Joker.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What you're missing is one important factor in the concept the OP described. The Joker isn't there for the party to kill. He's disguised, somewhere else, watching the mayhem as the party takes out a duped impostor. You can't kill what isn't there, and the Joker never puts himself in a situation of real danger. If he ever confronts the party head on, it will be when he wants to on his own terms, probably with an army of mooks standing in front of him.
This isn't about a villain to fight the party, it is about a villain that turns the world (in essence) against the party and makes the heroes look like villains for all the destruction they cause in pursuit of the Joker.

In effect, yes. However, it is best to not feed the trolls or fan flame wars.

[Kaihaku]

Maybe this has been said before...but this would be best against a Batman Wizard with a robin familiar.

[Roland St. Jude]

i like it, and i might just use it.

for all the naysayers who are crying out "but batman can beat him", being a dm isnt about winning, and anyone who thinks so is obviously a terrible dm.


this build make a great foil for any batman wizard, and would encourage a lot of good roleplay

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